#last one is to loras btw not brienne

[ilynpilled]

#me when i have to stop being a miserable fucking hater *vomits* #last one is to loras btw not brienne

[melrosing]

actually, it's a pretty common theory. a lot of shippers basically don't want jaime to die and brienne to live because they said and i quote, "if jaime dies, brienne will be alone." they're overestimating jaime's importance and undermining how much of a catch brienne is. sorry if i sounded rude btw, i just thought you'd hate that theory too. and it is more common than you think. just look at the way all those ppl started theorizing that show!brienne would be pregnant with rejection baby

there's nothing wrong with implying that a single mom would take care of her kid after her baby daddy dies. but there is something fucked up in the idea that she apparently can't find someone better and has to be alone and unloved for the rest of her life. Jb shippers always say that love is an important part of brienne's story, but they actually only want her to be loved by jaime and have no issue throwing her under the bus to validate their ship.

siiigh okay let's do this. "a lot of shippers basically don't want jaime to die and brienne to live because they said and i quote, "if jaime dies, brienne will be alone." JB fans are shippers. they like Jaime and Brienne together, and do not want one half of their ship to die. so far so good: this does not strike me as offensive. I also think JB shippers are likely right in thinking that if Jaime were to die, Brienne will be both A) unhappy! and B) lonely! she's a character who has longed for love and has feared she'll never have it. Jaime is introduced as the character who will contradict that notion and love her as she loves him. there's this sort of... extended bit in ASOS where grrm kind of explores why they're that special fit for each other, it's pretty good. lots of soulmate imagery going on, etc etc. so you know, Jaime's death is kind of a... sad ending for Brienne. life certainly goes on, and hey, the story may well end like that, but it doesn't seem all that radical to me that some JB/Brienne fans might dislike that as the conclusion to her story and theorise that maybe, Jaime might live. "they're overestimating jaime's importance and undermining how much of a catch brienne is." they're overestimating Jaime's importance.... to whom exactly? to Brienne? the woman who thinks about him like... every couple of pages in AFFC? should we assume that actually, Jaime's death is no biggie for her, even though she has nightmares about him dying, even though she literally tried to die for him in her last chapter, even despite this constant refrain that goes 'I'm meant to protect him'? and I'm sorry, where do JB fans undermine 'how much of a catch Brienne is'? the whole point of JB is that Brienne is a catch lmao, and that Jaime, so far, is the only character who's actually opened his eyes and seen that. does that mean JB/Brienne fans believe Brienne can never be loved again post-Jaime? no. it probably just means that, as people invested in the characters and relationship of Jaime and Brienne, they are not super interested in waving off Jaime's death as 'shit happens' and moving onto exploring the relationship of Brienne and some character who does not exist in the story.

GRRM has done a lot of work explaining why Jaime and Brienne fit together. nobody is super interested in talking about how a similar relationship might play out with a stranger offscreen. "just look at the way all those ppl started theorizing that show!brienne would be pregnant with rejection baby" I saw those theories. nobody wanted it to happen. there were just some fans who, seeing how badly the show had already treated Brienne, thought there was every chance D&D might do still worse by her in the final episode. "but there is something fucked up in the idea that she apparently can't find someone better and has to be alone and unloved for the rest of her life." like I mentioned, I imagine what you're talking about has less to do with 'nobody else could ever love Brienne and she must be alone' and more to do with... no-one really being especially interested in exploring a relationship that takes place offscreen with a character who doesn't currently exist. but besides that, you will always find shippers who feel character A could never truly love again after the death of character B, particularly where the 'soulmate stuff' is played as hard as it is with JB. this strikes me less as offensive and misogynistic and more just the way people feel about their ships. I had a Renly/Loras fan basically tell me the same a couple months back when I suggested that perhaps Loras might find someone else post-canon, because they couldn't fathom Loras loving again after Renly. this didn't strike me as uncharitable to Loras, but just the strength of their feeling for the ship, and the strength of the love they read into it. and GRRM even sort of supports the idea with Loras' line "When the sun has set, no candle can ever replace it." perhaps this is the grief talking, or perhaps this is true for Loras. personally, I like to think everyone can love again after the death of a partner, but I don't think it's an offensive reading for someone invested in the ship to believe that Jaime was Brienne's great love and "no candle can ever replace it." it has nothing to do with thinking she has to be alone and celibate forever without him. it is simply their reading of Jaime and Brienne's relationship and how Brienne's grief might manifest, you're free to disagree with it if you like.

"Jb shippers always say that love is an important part of brienne's story, but they actually only want her to be loved by jaime"

JB shippers are only invested in Jaime and Brienne because theirs is the romance the story is exploring. they are two characters whose stories are about love, explored via the other. like, I'm sorry, are we supposed to just get on with shipping Brienne x Ser Not-Appearing-In-This-Story? what is your actual issue here?

#ask #jaime x brienne

[ginmo]

Interesting! I thought that the petal falling from the rose was about how there isn't much time left and how the beast will remain a beast forever unless the beauty falls in love with him. so it's like a metaphor for both Jaime and Brienne learning to love themselves and see themselves as worthy of good things bc they're both simultaneously the beauty and the beast. Sorry if I'm not making sense. Btw, I know Bri gets triggered by roses but do you really think that if for example, a little girl comes up to Brienne and gives her a rose, she'd react badly?

Makes sense to me! I like the self love angle. 

I don’t think she’d react badly, no. Not from a child giving her one. If we were in her POV, there’d probably be a moment where that memory comes up again, but she wouldn’t reject the flower or anything. I’m pulling up a quote: 

Loras Tyrell had been the last to face her wroth that day. He’d never courted her, had hardly looked at her at all, but he bore three golden roses on his shield that day, and Brienne hated roses. The sight of them had given her a furious strength. - AFFC

There seems to be a bit of emphasis on her negative experience with roses, to the point where her fury over the sight of them helped her win her match against Loras. It’s possible Jaime may replace the rose memory with a positive one. I’m not predicting that or anything, because it could just be a fun BatB nod that goes nowhere, but it’s fun speculation. Koops (@jaimetheexplorer) and I the other day were having fun thinking about a scenario. I don’t think she’d react badly to a child giving her a rose, but what if it were Jaime? Like what if during the tourney at the Vale, he somehow competes and wins (just play here haha) and, trying to do a nice thing for her, names her the Queen of Love and Beauty? And the crowd laughs? Would he even do that publicly though for that reason? Or if he loses and gives her flowers anyway? What if he gave her a crown of roses afterwards and she’s hurt because she thinks he’s mocking her? But then when they bone talk, roses would be a positive association? 

lol this ask is turning into a fic ignore me. 

[agentrouka-blog]

Sweet Lady - a Sansa key phrase

The wonderful @esther-dot was so kind as to introduce me to the precious resource that is asearchoficeandfire.com and I have been down a rabbit hole ever since. Or more so than usual. (As far as quarantine with toddlers and work, both, allow me, anyway.) It's marvelous for letting you do unfocused word combinations, which really does wonders for finding text parallels and such. But that is a post for another day.

It did inspire me to search all my book files for an exact phrase, though. "Sweet Lady". It doesn't count all the other instances for sweet, lady, my sweet, sweet queen, sweet XYZ, sweetling or what have you. We already know that "sweet" can be a code for falseness. So I didn't want to confuse the issue. Only the exact phrase. "Sweet Lady". It's enlightening.

There are 23 instances in all 5 books, the TWOW sample chapters and all the other searchable publications. They appear as follows:

Sansa: 9 (3 x Joffrey, 1 x Ser Loras, 4 x  Dontos ("Florian"), 1 x Marillion)

Catelyn: 5 times (3 x Varys, 2 x Petyr Baelish)

Jonquil: 1 (Florian the Fool, "The Hedge Knight")

Lysa: 2 (1 x Morton Waynwood, 1 x Marillion)

Shae: 2 (1 x Varys, 1 x Symon Silver Tongue, ironic)

A mare: 1 (Jon, soothing a mare, about to betray the Watch)

Daenerys: 1 (Hizdahr, her "loyal" husband)

Asha: 1 (Quarl the maid, murky lover)

Lady Taena Merryweather: 1 (sneaked in, traitorous lover to Cersei - Everything there a big spotlight for Political!Jon and such, btw.)

To make it short, the phrase is a direct reference to Sansa. 9 direct references, 10 if you account for the fact that Sansa = Jonquil. (22 Jonquil mentions in all searchable publications, only 5 are not in Sansa's chapters: Jaime referencing the song or the puppetry in The Hedge Knight. Sansa is Jonquil. Case closed.) The rest of the usage concerns foils, mirrors or other characters deeply connected to her. It's a spotlight for Sansa.

In most instances, it is a marker for erroneous or "false" knights (Dontos, Florian, Loras, Waynwood), or "false" Ladies (Shae,Taena Merryweather, Alayne), immoral singers (Symon, Marillion), rape (Marillion), Rescue (Sansa/Alayne and Tanselle), political scheming (Cat, Varys, Littlefinger, Lady Merryweather and Cersei) and betrayal (ALL of them, save the true Florian and Jonquil). Also, curiously, the injury of hands. (Symon, Marillion, Catelyn, Jon, Tanselle the Jonquil puppeteer).

So now that we do know that when the phrase shows up, it's a marker for Sansa and that what surrounds it concerns Sansa, let's look at when it's used to see if we recognize anything or if it reminds us of anything. (This is where the rabbit hole comes in because there's a jumping off point for more references in almost every example.

 First Mention: Sansa I, AGOT

“Leave her alone,” Joffrey said. He stood over her, beautiful in blue wool and black leather, his golden curls shining in the sun like a crown. He gave her his hand, drew her to her feet. “What is it, sweet lady? Why are you afraid? No one will hurt you. Put away your swords, all of you. The wolf is her little pet (!), that’s all.” He looked at Sandor Clegane. “And you, dog, away with you, you’re scaring my betrothed.”

The Hound, ever faithful, bowed and slid away quietly through the press. Sansa struggled to steady herself. She felt like such a fool. She was a Stark of Winterfell, a noble lady, and someday she would be a queen. “It was not him, my sweet prince,” she tried to explain. “It was the other one.”

The two stranger knights exchanged a look. “Payne?” chuckled the young man in the green armor. The older man in white spoke to Sansa gently. “Ofttimes Ser Ilyn frightens me as well, sweet lady. He has a fearsome aspect.”

Payne, the mute. Who else is mute? Ghost. A fearsome wolf pet. Where have we heard the word "pet" before… Oh, Right. ASOS.

“The good woman at the brazier,” Mance Rayder went on, “is Dalla.” The pregnant woman smiled shyly. “Treat her like you would any queen, she is carrying my child.” He turned to the last two. “This beauty is her sister Val. Young Jarl beside her is her latest pet.”

“I am no man’s pet,” said Jarl, dark and fierce.

“And Val’s no man,” white-bearded Tormund snorted. “You ought to have noticed that by now, lad.”

Aaaand...

Jarl was with the Magnar; Mance had given them the joint command. Styr was none too pleased by that, Jon had noted early on. Mance Rayder had called the dark youth a “pet” of Val, who was sister to Dalla, his own queen, which made Jarl a sort of good brother once removed to the King-beyond-the-Wall.

 And isn't that some precious phrasing. A "good brother" once, removed.

Contrast Dany, ADWD:

“What, o’ the queen’s little pets?” Brown Ben’s eyes crinkled in amusement. The grizzled captain of the Second Sons was a creature of the free companies, a mongrel with the blood of a dozen different peoples flowing through his veins, but he had always been fond of the dragons, and them of him.

“Pets?” screeched Reznak. “Monsters, rather. Monsters that feed on children. We cannot —”

“Silence,” said Daenerys. “We will not speak of that.”

So the Sweet Lady will have a pet wolf, literally and figuratively. *wink*

But on to other "Sweet Lady" instances. Two involving Catelyn:

AGOT, Catelyn:

“How could you know all that?”

“The whisperings of little birds,” Varys said, smiling. “I know things, sweet lady. That is the nature of my service.” He shrugged. “You do have the dagger with you, yes?”

Catelyn pulled it out from beneath her cloak and threw it down on the table in front of him. “Here. Perhaps your little birds will whisper the name of the man it belongs to.”

AGOT, Eddard:

Littlefinger smiled. “Leave Lord Varys to me, sweet lady. If you will permit me a small obscenity—and where better for it than here—I hold the man’s balls in the palm of my hand.” He cupped his fingers, smiling. “Or would, if he were a man, or had any balls. You see, if the pie is opened, the birds begin to sing, and Varys would not like that. Were I you, I would worry more about the Lannisters and less about the eunuch.”

We know who the Little Bird is (Sansa), so here we know our Sweet Lady will spill important Secrets to the vast dismay of some people.

Now for some sweetness in AGOT. Jon's foils Loras and Joffrey lay it on thick:

To the other maidens he had given white roses, but the one he plucked for her was red. “Sweet lady,” he said, “no victory is half so beautiful as you.” Sansa took the flower timidly, struck dumb by his gallantry. His hair was a mass of lazy brown curls, his eyes like liquid gold. She inhaled the sweet fragrance of the rose and sat clutching it long after Ser Loras had ridden off.

Awww. So sweet, so fake.

 Instead Joffrey smiled and kissed her hand, handsome and gallant as any prince in the songs, and said, “Ser Loras has a keen eye for beauty, sweet lady.”

Actually, we know Jon IS a visual creature. (Natural landscapes, handsome Kingslayers, Radiant Sisters, lovely Val, etc etc etc.) But we digress.

The mare whickered softly as Jon Snow tightened the cinch. “Easy, sweet lady,” he said in a soft voice, quieting her with a touch. Wind whispered through the stable, a cold dead breath on his face, but Jon paid it no mind. He strapped his roll to the saddle, his scarred fingers stiff and clumsy. “Ghost,” he called softly, “to me.” And the wolf was there, eyes like embers.

Jon is probably the only one outside of Florian the actual puppet fool to use the phrase honestly. Jon of the fool references is Florian to Sansa's Jonquil. Brienne is the True Knight she prays for, the Galladon, but Jon is the Florian, the fool knight. Also, "The wolf was there." Jon and Ghost will be a calming, gentle, protective presence in Sansa's life. Also "mare" is an occasional marker for Sansa.

Now for something else:

ACOK, Tyrion:

Varys glanced at Shae. “My lord, must we trouble your sweet lady’s sleep with such grim and bloody talk?”

“A lady might be afraid,” said Shae, “but I’m not.”

(ASOS, Tyrion:)

“You shall rise again, I am sure. A man like you. My sweet lady Shae tells me you are newly wed. Would that you had sent for me earlier. I should have been honored to sing at your feast.”

“The last thing my wife needs is more songs,” said Tyrion. “As for Shae, we both know she is no lady, and I would thank you never to speak her name aloud.”

Which all seems to lead to:

(AFFC, Alayne)

Up here where the slope was steepest, the steps wound back and forth rather than plunging straight down. Sansa Stark went up the mountain, but Alayne Stone is coming down. It was a strange thought. Coming up, Mya had warned her to keep her eyes on the path ahead, she remembered. “Look up, not down,” she said … but that was not possible on the descent. I could close my eyes. The mule knows the way, he has no need of me. But that seemed more something Sansa would have done, that frightened girl. Alayne was an older woman, and bastard brave.

and...

“Unhand me. You forget yourself.”

“Mercy. I have been singing love songs for hours. My blood is stirred. And yours, I know … there’s no wench half so lusty as one bastard born. Are you wet for me?”

“I’m a maiden,” she protested.

“Truly? Oh, Alayne, Alayne, my fair maid, give me the gift of your innocence. You will thank the gods you did. I’ll have you singing louder than the Lady Lysa.”

Sansa jerked away from him, frightened. “If you don’t leave me, my au—my father will hang you. Lord Petyr.”

“Littlefinger?” He chuckled. “Lady Lysa loves me well, and I am Lord Robert’s favorite. If your father offends me, I will destroy him with a verse.” He put a hand on her breast, and squeezed. “Let’s get you out of these wet clothes. You wouldn’t want them ripped, I know. Come, sweet lady, heed your heart—”

Sansa heard the soft sound of steel on leather. “Singer,” a rough voice said, “best go, if you want to sing again.” The light was dim, but she saw a faint glimmer of a blade.

The singer saw it too. “Find your own wench—” The knife flashed, and he cried out. “You cut me!”

“I’ll do worse, if you don’t go.” And quick as that, Marillion was gone.

There's a lot in this. There is yet another averted rape attempt, complete with rescue by a knight. (Lothor Brune.) Then, we have the implication that Sansa's virtue will be compromised ("Truly?" - Potentially by something horrible like on the show. The TWOW "Mercy" sample chapter is one big red flag.) and then we have the foreshadowing of Sansa losing her "innocence" by becoming a bad singer, a liar like Lysa, as we know she will when she lies about her death, or by "singing" loudly of secrets. Songs have the power to preserve and destroy, we learn, and Sansa will have to learn to weild that power benevolently. The fact that she is saved here, tells us that she will be "saved" from moral failure, as well.

Randomly, Marillion's Trial in AFFC:

“If I had eyes I should weep.” The singer’s voice, so strong and sure by night, was cracked and whispery now. “I loved her so, I could not bear to see her in another’s arms, to know she shared his bed. I meant no harm to my sweet lady, I swear it. I barred the door so no one could disturb us whilst I declared my passion, but Lady Lysa was so cold … when she told that she was carrying Lord Petyr’s child, a … a madness seized me …”

It may mean something, or it may not. But Sansa has a lot of bastard foreshadowing. Other characters have "madness" foreshadowing. And a history of miscarriages.

For something darker:

ADWD, The Wayward Bride (Asha)

A shy smile, strong arms, clever fingers, and two sure swords. What more could any woman want? She would have married Qarl, and gladly, but she was Lord Balon’s daughter and he was common-born, the grandson of a thrall. Too lowborn for me to wed, but not too low for me to suck his cock. Drunk, smiling, she crawled beneath the furs and took him in her mouth. Qarl stirred in his sleep, and after a moment he began to stiffen. By the time she had him hard again, he was awake and she was wet. Asha draped the furs across her bare shoulders and mounted him, drawing him so deep inside her that she could not tell who had the cock and who the cunt. This time the two of them reached their peak together.

“My sweet lady,” he murmured after, in a voice still thick with sleep. “My sweet queen.”

No, Asha thought, I am no queen, nor shall I ever be. “Go back to sleep.” She kissed his cheek, padded across Galbart Glover’s bedchamber, and threw the shutters open. The moon was almost full, the night so clear that she could see the mountains, their peaks crowned with snow. Cold and bleak and inhospitable, but beautiful in the moonlight.

Their summits glimmered pale and jagged as a row of sharpened teeth. The foothills and the smaller peaks were lost in shadow.

 At first glance this could be sweet-ish, but the surrounding imagery is kind of sinister and I get reminded of two other things:

Lysa describing her rape of Petyr (Sansa, ASOS):

...and Petyr tried to kiss your mother, only she pushed him away. She laughed at him. He looked so wounded I thought my heart would burst, and afterward he drank until he passed out at the table. (…) That was the night I stole up to his bed to give him comfort. I bled, but it was the sweetest hurt. He told me he loved me then, but he called me Cat, just before he fell back to sleep. Even so, I stayed with him until the sky began to lighten.

And Cersei's wedding night with Robert, (Eddard, AGOT)

Her eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil. “The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister’s name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna.”

We already had a moment of deeply screwed up consent for Jon during his first time with Ygritte. Suddenly, the scene when Dany asks Jon if he's drunk on the show in 8x04 after the victory feast and then pushes him for sex seems even more sinister. Lysa's rape of Petyr ended in pregnancy. I hope I am wrong about this!

Lastly, this is from The Hedge Knight. "Florian and Jonquil" are being destroyed, i.e. Sansa's very favorite song is getting viciously attacked, her romantic dreams put to the torch. If my horrible suspicion is true, Sansa will live some aspect of her Ramsey storyline, if not with Ramsey, then with someone else. This following Scene festuring Duncan the fake knight and Tanselle, the tall girl playing Jonquil's puppet, however, is very reminiscent of Jon's final encounter with Ramsey. No?

The puppeteer's stall had been knocked on its side. The fat Dornishwoman was on the ground weeping.

One man-at-arms was dangling the puppets of Florian and Jonquil from his hands as another set them afire with a torch. Three more men were opening chests, spilling more puppets on the ground and stamping on them. The dragon puppet was scattered all about them, a broken wing here, its head there, its tail in three pieces. And in the midst of it all stood Prince Aerion, resplendent in a red velvet doublet with long dagged sleeves, twisting Tanselle's arm in both hands. She was on her knees, pleading with him. Aerion ignored her. He forced open her hand and seized one of her fingers. Dunk stood there stupidly, not quite believing what he saw. Then he heard a crack, and Tanselle screamed.

One of Aerion's men tried to grab him, and went flying. Three long strides, then Dunk grabbed the prince's shoulder and wrenched him around hard. His sword and dagger were forgotten, along with everything the old man had ever taught him. His fist knocked Aerion off his feet, and the toe of his boot slammed into the prince's belly. When Aerion went for his knife, Dunk stepped on his wrist and then kicked him again, right in the mouth. He might have kicked him to death right then and there, but the princeling's men swarmed over him.

 So the wolf pet/lover will curbstomp her attacker in some way shape or form.

 Damn. To cheer us, let's look at some Dontos/Florian from ACOK, Sansa:

“I will,” she said. “Tell me who sent you.”

“No one, sweet lady. I swear it on my honor as a knight.”

“A knight?” Joffrey had decreed that he was to be a knight no longer, only a fool, lower even than Moon Boy. “I prayed to the gods for a knight to come save me,” she said. “I prayed and prayed. Why would they send me a drunken old fool?”

“I deserve that, though . . . I know it’s queer, but . . . all those years I was a knight, I was truly a fool, and now that I am a fool I think . . . I think I may find it in me to be a knight again, sweet lady. And all because of you . . . your grace, your courage. You saved me, not only from Joffrey, but from myself.” His voice dropped. “The singers say there was another fool once who was the greatest knight of all . . .”

“Florian,” Sansa whispered. A shiver went through her.

“Sweet lady, I would be your Florian,” Dontos said humbly, falling to his knees before her.

Slowly, Sansa lowered the knife. Her head seemed terribly light, as if she were floating. This is madness, to trust myself to this drunkard, but if I turn away will the chance ever come again? “How . . . how would you do it? Get me away?”

Ser Dontos raised his face to her. “Taking you from the castle, that will be the hardest. Once you’re out, there are ships that would take you home. I’d need to find the coin and make the arrangements, that’s all.”

“Could we go now?” she asked, hardly daring to hope.

“This very night? No, my lady, I fear not. First I must find a sure way to get you from the castle when the hour is ripe. It will not be easy, nor quick. They watch me as well.” He licked his lips nervously. “Will you put away your blade?”

Sansa slipped the knife beneath her cloak. “Rise, ser.”

“Thank you, sweet lady.” Ser Dontos lurched clumsily to his feet, and brushed earth and leaves from his knees. “Your lord father was as true a man as the realm has ever known, but I stood by and let them slay him. I said nothing, did nothing . . . and yet, when Joffrey would have slain me, you spoke up. Lady, I have never been a hero, no Ryam Redwyne or Barristan the Bold. I’ve won no tourneys, no renown in war . . . but I was a knight once, and you have helped me remember what that meant. My life is a poor thing, but it is yours.” Ser Dontos placed a hand on the gnarled bole of the heart tree. He was shaking, she saw. “I vow, with your father’s gods as witness, that I shall send you home.”

He swore. A solemn oath, before the gods. “Then . . . I will put myself in your hands, ser. But how will I know, when it is time to go? Will you send me another note?”

Ser Dontos glanced about anxiously. “The risk is too great. You must come here, to the godswood. As often as you can. This is the safest place. The only safe place. Nowhere else. Not in your chambers nor mine nor on the steps nor in the yard, even if it seems we are alone. The stones have ears in the Red Keep, and only here may we talk freely.”

“Only here,” Sansa said. “I’ll remember.”

“And if I should seem cruel or mocking or indifferent when men are watching, forgive me, child. I have a role to play, and you must do the same. One misstep and our heads will adorn the walls as did your father’s.”

She nodded. “I understand.”

“You will need to be brave and strong . . . and patient, patient above all.”

“I will be,” she promised, “but . . . please . . . make it as soon as you can. I’m afraid . . .”

“So am I,” Ser Dontos said, smiling wanly. “And now you must go, before you are missed.”

“You will not come with me?”

“Better if we are never seen together.”

Nodding, Sansa took a step . . . then spun back, nervous, and softly laid a kiss on his cheek, her eyes closed. “My Florian,” she whispered. “The gods heard my prayer.”

And just to add some sweet speculation…

Jon, ASOS:

If I could show her Winterfell … give her a flower from the glass gardens, feast her in the Great Hall, and show her the stone kings on their thrones. We could bathe in the hot pools, and love beneath the heart tree while the old gods watched over us.

I'm such a hopeful fool for these two.

#Jonsa #asoiaf #asoiaf speculation #jon snow #sansa stark

[silkygoldmilkweed]

Petyr Baelish vs Sandor Clegane: A Tale of Two Suitors

GRRM will be dead before he finishes the books so we’ll never get a chance to ask him about the construction process once the whole thing is out there, but until he says otherwise, I believe that he created Jon, Dany, Arya, Sansa, Sandor, Ned, Bobby, Rhaegar, Lyanna, Cat and Robb, and then built out many of the other characters as mirrors and foils to them. 

Theon is failed Jon.

Joffrey is the anti-Jon.

And I believe with all my heart that Littlefinger is the anti-Sandor. 

Name almost any character quality and Sandor has the opposite aspect to Littlefinger. Littlefinger is words. Sandor is deeds. Littlefinger is manipulation and lies. Sandor is brutal honesty. Littlefinger is selfish. Sandor is selfless. Littlefinger is either amoral or immoral or maybe both. Sandor lives by a strict personal code of how men, women and people generally are supposed to behave. Littlefinger is sinuous and simpering and sly like Hiss in Disney’s Robin Hood movie. The Hound is bold and strong and aggressive and all heart. 

But both of them want to fuck Sansa Stark. 

(My headcanon, BTW, is that Littlefinger’s nickname is really because he has a tiny dick and that it was Brandon “Wild Wolf” Stark that gave him the nickname. Sandor, of course, is prodigiously endowed. LOL.)

I think the show grants Littlefinger’s death scene a few nods to the SanSan subtext in Sansa’s life, and Littlefinger’s failure gives us some insight into where the Hound succeeded, even though it may not have been acknowledged at the time.

“Lady Sansa, I’ve known you since you were a girl. I’ve protected you–”

OK, this is excellent. When was the first time they met? According to Littlefinger circa season four, “The first time I saw you, you were just a child. A girl from the North, come to the capital for the first time. Not a child any longer.” So the first time they ever met was the Tourney of the Hand, and at that time, Sansa was officially a “child” or a “girl.” (Sandor met her just before that, and then won the tourney in question by protecting Loras from Gregor.) 

Anyway, LF’s been creeping on Sansa from the get-go (he puts his hand on her at the Tourney and Ned gives him a death glare) but more importantly, beginning as early as season four (MAYBE) but most certainly by season seven, Sansa is no longer a girl but a woman. SophieT is only 21 or something, but in Westerosi terms, Sansa is a twice-married widow of maturity and dignity. The way she dresses she could pass for a middle-aged spinster, but of course her face gives away her youth. 

Long story short, the show wants you to know that it’s no longer creepy if Sandor thinks she’s hot, because age difference or no, they’re both adults now and free people, and able to consent to sexual intercourse if they’re both of sound mind and body, etc.

“Protected me? By selling me to the Boltons?”

Littlefinger is first and foremost a flesh peddler. A whoremonger, as Lord Royce calls him. He sells Sansa’s body as readily as he brokers a street prostitute’s blow job work.

Counterpoint: Sandor Clegane doesn’t run around pimping out little girls. Can you even imagine? Quite to the contrary, he spends all his free time running interference between creeps and his Stark girls. Honestly, one of the most striking underanalyzed moments in the histories of the Hound is when he and Arya are with the farmer and his daughter, and the father is doing his prayers to the Seven. “We ask the Maiden to protect Sally’s virtue and keep her from the clutches of depravity,” says farmer dad. It’s at that moment that he interrupts, “Do you have to do all seven of the fuckers?” Now, mostly he’s literally starving and he just wants to get on with it, but I also think there’s an unspoken freaked-out reaction there: There’s no point in praying! The gods aren’t going to keep her from getting raped. They never stop any of that shit. You either can fight it off yourself or she’ll suffer it, same as all the other maidens.

The spectre of sexual assualt looms heavy over Sandor and Sansa’s “relationship,” not least because of the “fuck her bloody” line but also because of the size difference, the age difference, the power difference, his known predilection for violence, and his obvious overwhelming desire for her (not to mention Gregor’s history as a rapist, most famously of Elia Martell). But even though he could take her at any time, and she is quite often in very vulnerable situations with him, he never does anything untoward. (Show canon only, I know the book canon is slightly more salacious and risque, in word if not in deed.) But even though he could have stolen her against her will, and he should have, most likely, he politely asked her if she wanted to be absconded with and when she said no, he walked away. 

As he and Omar put it so succinctly, “A man’s got to have a code.” No stealing girls who don’t want to be stolen. 

Or as the vows of Westerosi knighthood put it, “In the name of the Maid, I charge you to protect all women.”

Littlefinger grossly exploits women’s bodies. Sandor puts his own body between women and danger. Littlefinger sells. Sandor frees. What a difference.

“If we could speak alone, I could explain everything.”

Littlefinger is a sneak. And a liar. He can’t do anything in the open, because he needs to lurk in the shadows to play his little games. It’s a kick to rewatch once you understand the extent of Littlefinger’s dishonesty, because you can absolutely see Aiden Gillen adjust his performance ever so slightly when LF is lying. It’s outstanding acting, although of course I loathe anything and everything LF-related.

Sandor, meanwhile, is honest to a fault. “A dog will die for you, but never lie to you.” 

“Sometimes when I’m trying to understand a person’s motives, I play a little game. What’s the worst reason you have for turning me against my sister? That’s what you do, isn’t it? That’s what you’ve always done. Turn family against family, turn sister against sister. That’s what you did to our mother and Aunt Lysa, and that’s what you tried to do to us.”

If we play this game with Sandor’s motives, I think we come to the conclusion that the worst thing he could want was to have consensual sex with a girl who was too young and too highborn and too fragile and too weak. He didn’t want Winterfell. He didn’t want money. He didn’t want power. He legitimately wanted to help Sansa, and later Arya. (I will insist on my deathbed that the Arya-for-ransom deal was bullshit generally but at best a poorly-thought-out plan to get him an entree to House Stark.)

The other thing is the sister divisions bit. I would add that Sansa and Arya (”different as the sun and moon”) have but a handful of things in common: Winterfell, their parents and siblings, and Sandor Clegane. He’s one of the things that binds Sansa and Arya together, rather than tears them apart. They approach him from different positions but end up in the same place.

Last but hardly least, he is the one single person who ever fought for both Sansa and Arya, who were almost completely abandoned after their father was killed. 

They were left alone in the wilderness. Arya had a little of Yoren and Jaquen and Gendry, but she was overwhelmingly scrapping on her own. Sansa had a little of Varys and Olenna and Littlefinger, but again, she was basically out there all by herself, being hunted by lions. The Hound was the only one who fought for them both. He is a tie that binds.

“Sansa, please.”

Ah, the pathetic begging. Show!Sandor never grovels for her attention. On the contrary, he discourages and frightens her on several occasions. He doesn’t need her the way Littlefinger is desperate for Sansa, both sexually and politically. Why? Because Littlefinger is weak and needy, whereas Sandor is strong and needy. Sandor desires Sansa Stark, but he doesn’t debase either of them to get what he wants. If what he wants is not freely given, he can walk away, whereas Littlefinger always crawls closer.

“I’m a slow learner, it’s true. But I do learn.”

Oh, my sweet Sansa. To me this line is so evocative and nostalgic and tragic. If viewed from a pure SanSan perspective, this is Sansa saying that she had to suffer through years of loneliness and torment at the hands of villains to be able to see what a good and rare and precious thing she had once had in Sandor Clegane. 

This line pairs beautifully with the other heartbreaker from Sansa to Littlefinger: “Back then I only thought about what I wanted, never about what I had. I was a stupid girl.” She’s had years to think about how her girlish, inexperienced, naive and entitled values prevented her from seeing that her True Knight was standing in front of her the whole time, right behind the beautiful, odious, vicious idiot king.

“Give me a chance to defend myself. I deserve that.”

Ugh. Let’s return to season six to reply to this. “I don’t believe you anymore. I don’t need you anymore. You can’t protect me. You won’t even be able to protect yourself if I tell Brienne to cut you down.”

Sansa sees now that she is much stronger and more powerful than Littlefinger ever was or could hope to be. He is a grubby little pretender and he destroyed her family for his own selfish ends, and he deserves every bit of the justice that he is about to receive.

Basically, my girl has become a woman, and she is free of all the bullshit men who have been using her for years. Tywin is dead. Littlefinger is dead. The Boltons are dead. 

She is unbound. She is a woman, and she can choose for herself, and I’m pretty sure what she chooses will be Sandor Clegane.

#sansan #sansan meta #Sansa Stark #Sandor Clegane #petyr baelish #sansan marriage

[aporeticelenchus]

dostresseisdostres replied to your post “Jorah/Dany, Jaime/Brienne and Sandor/Sansa”

TV fan here who hasn't read the book. Just curious what's so bad about Sandor, Loras and Renly in the show? I totally adore Jaime/Brienne btw :P

Oh boy, you do not want to hear my endless rant about the treatment and characterization of Loras. Nobody wants that.

As far as the Loras/Renly relationship, I have a lot of issues, but the easiest one to sum up is that I’m angry that Loras didn’t get to mourn for Renly. At all. Renly dies, and book!Loras is devastated. He goes on a grief-stricken murder rampage when he finds Renly’s body, and then has to deal with the guilt of having killed his comrades. When he joins the Kingsguard he tells Tyrion (who asks) that he gladly swore the oath of chastity because he has no desire ever to love again, and says that he buried Renly in a spot known only to the two of them so that no one could ever disturb his rest. He throws himself into battle against Stannis’ forces to the point that he runs through a hail of arrows and into boiling oil to defeat them. Which he does, because he’s a freaking badass legend. He’s not the greatest knight in the realm at 17 for nothing.

It’s not that any of this is healthy or good, but man it makes me upset that they took a character whose MAJOR ARC IN THE LAST THREE BOOKS IS DEALING WITH OVERWHELMING GRIEF AT THE LOSS OF HIS KING/SECRET HUSBAND AND HIS OWN FEELINGS OF FAILURE and turned him into the ditzy one who sleeps around and talks about fashion and gossip. Can you imagine if they’d done that to Cat after Ned died? I just. There’s nothing inherently wrong with having characters who conforms to some stereotypes, but taking a character who DOESN’T have those traits and adding them is. Frustrating. And all his defining character traits were mysteriously absent in favor of a bunch of gay jokes and woah, sorry, I’m getting into my Loras Tyrell Was Done Wrong rant.

Sandor is...different. He’s much younger in the books, as most of the characters are. Maybe 24, 25? I’m not quite sure how to describe how he’s different - he’s got more of an angry-tragic punk aesthetic, less cavalierly cynical murder dude. More Disney Beast, less...whatever show Sandor is. It gives the Sansa-Sandor interactions a very different feel, at least to me. I’m not super invested in Sandor, so I don’t have strong feelings about it, but I have sympathy for people who do.

Yay Brienne/Jamie! They’re even cuter in the books, where you can hear all Jamie’s internal narration :p

#LORAS IS AN ANGRY JOCK PASS IT ON #dostresseisdostres #ASOIAF spoilers #GOT spoilers

[my-arya-underfoot]

Debunking the Sansa-Lyanna Parallels

For whatever reason, the Lyanna = Sansa interpretation has been getting increasingly popular in the fandom. There’s this growing theory that Sansa and Arya are both equally like Lyanna and represent the different sides of her. In the extreme, there’s arguments Sansa is actually more like Lyanna than Arya.

“Arya and Sansa represent two faces of Lyanna.” “Denying one is actually denying Lyanna’s story in complete.” “Sansa’s romantic soul and Arya’s wild nature.”

Which, honestly drives me crazy – because you have to twist all three women out of character to justify the parallels.

There are way too many Lyanna/Arya parallels to explain here. If anyone wants a summary here are some good ones. But tbh, it’s not even something you need meta for – the books are incredibly explicit about the parallels, from their personalities (“wilful”), Stark-ness (wolf blooded), skills/interests (sword fighting and riding) and appearance (Northern beauties). Ned, Harwin and Bran all compare them outright.

Meanwhile, here’s the one explicit Lyanna/Sansa comparison: “He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.” – Ned, AGoT.

Btw, this is not an anti-Sansa meta. Sansa has multiple parallels to other characters and inherits traits from many family members. (Ned, Catelyn, Jon, Sandor, Dany, Lysa, Cersei, Littlefinger, Brienne etc.) And there’s obviously overlap in characters she and Arya share connections with. But Lyanna Stark is not one of them. This is a debunking of the general Lyanna = Sansa evidence (book based).

Sansa/Joffrey = Lyanna/Rhaegar 

1. Sansa was blinded by love for Joffrey, Lyanna was blinded by love for Rhaegar

A. Don’t know how anyone missed this but – we don’t know the full Lyanna/Rhaegar story. The whole point of the event is how murky it is. We can't assume it was as simple as Lyanna being blinded by "love" Rhaegar and losing all common sense like Sansa did around Joffrey. That’s one of many interpretations. It could have been about the prophecy, closer to a straight kidnapping, Rhaegar being the one blinded by love, Lyanna running away by herself initially. Using the most unreliable story in the entire series as a basis for this theory is headscratching.

B. Lyanna is presented as perceptive and realistic about men, not idealistic. From actual quotes: Lyanna “Robert will never keep to one bed.” Lyanna “love is sweet dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature”?? That girl was blinded by infatuation for Rhaegar? Blinded in the way Sansa you-literally-tried-to-kill-my-sister-in-front-of-me -but-I-repressed-it-to-keep-my-fairytale-alive, was by Joffrey? Doesn’t line up.

C. A far better comparison to Sansa/Joffrey is Lyanna/Robert. Both Sansa and Lyanna were faced with marrying a young, handsome noble who was friends with the family and would give them status and a comfortable life. Sansa was overjoyed and Lyanna was unhappy. Both were faced with unpleasant truths about their betrothed: Joffrey was a monster and Robert was unfaithful. Sansa, the romantic rewrote events, idealized Joffrey and convinced herself he was wonderful and she loved him. Lyanna was clear-eyed, cynical and stated the facts. Completely opposite reactions.

D. Fun fact. What character saw Joffrey for what he was, is good at reading people's true character and isn't blinded by looks or status? Arya.

2: Both Sansa and Lyanna fell in love/had romances with Princes

We’ll put aside the question marks over R/L. Let’s say it’s a straight love story. It’s still starkly different from Joffrey and Sansa.

A. Sansa/Joffrey was an arranged marriage – Rhaegar/Lyanna was a forbidden affair. For most of the time Sansa was “in love” with him, Sansa’s relationship with Joffrey was fulfilling expectations of what she should be doing. Only at the eleventh hour did Joffrey become "forbidden.” Meanwhile, Lyanna and Rhaegar fell in love while they were both betrothed/married. It was always a rebellion against acceptable behaviour. Again, Lyanna/Robert is a much better parallel to understand the characters.

B. Even if R/L was a love story…then the argument is Rhaegar did love Lyanna and it was mutual. Sansa and Joffrey wasn’t mutual because he certainly never loved her.

C. Apart from being Princes I’m still waiting on similarities between Joffrey and Rhaegar. Aerys? Sure.

3: Lyanna and Sansa both betrayed their families for love/infatuation and started a war

A. We still don’t know what went down between Rhaegar and Lyanna. Certainly, not enough to parallel Lyanna running off with him to Sansa betraying Ned to Cersei.

B. Again, Sansa’s “betrayal” of her family was to uphold her arranged marriage. Lyanna’s “betrayal” was to turn her back on society and arranged match, and vanish for months with a married man. Vastly different circumstances.

C. Sansa going to Cersei was notably out of character for "eager to please since she was 3" Sansa vs. "wilful, wild" Lyanna and Arya. In the same book (chapter?) Sansa even compares her disobedience to feeling "almost as wicked as Arya."

D. The causes of both wars were complex and Sansa at least played a pretty minor role in hers. Her actions in contributing to the War of the Five Kings aren’t given nearly the same weight as Lyanna’s disappearance.

4: Sansa is more likely to run away for love than Arya

A. Um. No. Sansa is repeatedly characterised as dutiful and living by society's standards. Her causing the scandal of the century by running off with a married guy/someone unsuitable? No way. Not if she was in Lyanna's situation with a comfortable future before her. We see Sansa persuade herself her situation/match is fine –  rather than flee from it – with Joffrey.

B. You know who is known for running off? Arya. In her first chapter, she runs away from being a lady, she runs off after the Trident incident, she fantasies about running home while in KL, she’s literally on the run for ACoK-ASoS, she runs from Harrenhal, the Brotherhood, Westeros itself. If one of the Stark girls has a *screw all this, I’m outta here* attitude, it’s Arya. And a teenage Arya running away from an arranged marriage? 100% plausible.

C. Also, falling for someone unsuitable? How about that infamously wilful younger Stark daughter? Arya falling in love with someone forbidden - *cough* bastard blacksmith *cough* -  would be totally in character.

5: Both Lyanna and Sansa were held prisoner in the South during war

A. This parallel undermines the previous basis for Lyanna being a romantic. (I.e. The argument that she wasn’t a prisoner but went willingly with Rhaegar).

B. Let’s say Lyanna was kidnapped – still starkly different from Sansa. Sansa was held as a political pawn and on show. Lyanna was kidnapped for unknown, possibly personal reasons and hidden away from society. Sansa has more parallels with Elia’s role in the war than Lyanna’s.

C. If we start making a list of every character who is held prisoner during wars – Jaime, Tyrion, Ned, oh look Arya! – we’ll be here forever. Very weak parallel.

Lyanna and Sansa are romantics – Arya is a realist/cynic

To reiterate, everything we see of Lyanna’s reaction to Robert indicates she’s a practical realistic, not a romantic. But let’s break down the evidence.

1: Lyanna cried over Rhaegar’s song so she’s sentimental like Sansa not Arya (“The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle…”)

A. Yes, Sansa's more sentimental and loves songs. But interpreting the scene as a Lyanna/Sansa parallel, blatantly discounts the rest of the sentence: “…but when her pup brother teased her [Lyanna] for crying she poured wine over his head.” NEVER in a million years would Sansa do that. Not at a public Southern tourney and feast. Man though, you know a Stark girl who would do that? Who is far more wild and playful with her brothers? Arya. The Sansa parallel lasts Iess than a sentence before we’re back to Lyanna/Arya.

B. The fact Benjen bothered to tease Lyanna at all suggests it was out of character for her. I can't see the Stark boys teasing Sansa for crying, as it's the kind of thing she'd be likely to do all the time and wouldn't be ashamed of it. No point in teasing her. Teasing gutsy, sighing-over-songs-is-stupid Arya for crying though? Sure.

C. "Sang a song SO sad it made the wolf maid sniffle." The point is the song was exceptional in being able to make Lyanna cry. It’s “man, that’s unusual” not “oh, typical Lyanna sniffling away”. That comment is more about the Lyanna/Rhaegar relationship, not Lyanna’s allegedly sentimental personality.

D. Arya likes songs and Arya cries. That’s not exclusive to Sansa and Lyanna. This great meta goes into more detail both about the significance of songs for all characters in Asoiaf and how emotional Arya can be. But enough to say, Arya may not love songs as much as Sansa does, but she likes them and has favourites – Nymeria, Wenda the White Fawn etc. For all we know Rhaegar was singing a Nymeria/Wenda fanfic. And Arya cries a lot throughout the books, right from her first chapter over messing up her needlework.

2: Sansa and Lyanna both loved flowers. Lyanna was crowned Queen of Love and Beauty at the tourney at Harranhal = Sansa was given a rose by Loras at the Hand’s tourney.

A. News to me that “flowers” are a motif exclusive to Sansa’s character. Not only are flowers sprinkled all over the series, they’re more present in Arya’s story. In Sansa’s first chapter, Arya brings Ned purple flowers (Ned who brings Lyanna's statue flowers) and is excitedly discovering new plants while Sansa is sitting in her carriage. Not to mention the heck ton of nature imagery in Arya’s chapters. This is a weak link.

B. Lyanna gets a crown from a prince who spurns his wife? Sansa gets a rose from an implied gay guy? Much love. Much romance. Much parallels. If GRRM wanted that parallel, he’d have actually crowned Sansa QoLaB. There are hundreds of tourneys in the series, both of them attending doesn’t mean anything.

C. This is the same tourney where Lyanna first beat up a bunch of squires and may have gone on to dress up a knight and compete in the joust. Go ahead anyone who wants to argue that’s a Sansa not Arya move.

3: Arya has no interest in romance, Sansa and Lyanna do. Arya thinks love is stupid and Sansa is silly for liking it

A. Still very little evidence of Lyanna being some diehard romantic.

B. We cannot compare a 9/10yo Arya to a 15/16yo Lyanna. That’s skipping Arya’s entire puberty a.k.a when girls start to explore romance, love and sex. You can't take a few lines from a child as a blanket statement of Arya's views for love forever. It’s also comparing a Lyanna who grew up in a secure environment until she hit her teens vs. Arya who was thrust into a warzone as a child. Sorry Arya isn’t thinking about romance while starving on the run.  

C. Arya’s dismissal of romance is entwined with her own insecurities about failing as a lady, her ‘ugliness’ and being inferior to her sister. It’s a defence mechanism for something she worries she can never have. Also, she rejects Sansa’s versions of idealised love and conventional expectations of romance – not love full stop. Lyanna didn’t seem sold on the conventional marriage set up either.

D. Despite her age and circumstances, Arya still manages to have a ship tease with Gendry – a relationship more genuine and straightforwardly romantic than anything Sansa’s had. (Not discounting her complex dynamics with Sandor, Joffrey, Willas, Harry and Tyrion).

E. For the record, in the same conversation Arya told Ned Dayne "love is stupid" that people like to cite, she was mortally offended by the suggestion that her father loved anyone else ever other than her mother.

Sansa represents Lyanna’s “beautiful and feminine side” and Arya her “wildness and rebellion”

These aspects are not exclusionary and there's no indication Lyanna had these two opposing sides. In the same conversation that Ned tells Arya that she's like Lyanna, he refers to Sansa and Arya as "different as the sun and moon." (Not “two sides of the same coin” as is commonly quoted - that’s about the Targs).

So really. "Arya, you're the opposite of your sister! And almost exactly like Lyanna!" = "Sansa is like Lyanna". But let’s go through.

1: Lyanna and Sansa the beauties  

A. Arya is beautiful as well. For more detail go here – she’s growing into her looks. She doesn’t think she’s beautiful but other characters are commenting on it. Trying to imply Arya is “too ugly” to parallel Lyanna, so Sansa has to fill that part is gross on multiple levels.

B. Arya is explicitly describe as looking like Lyanna. By Ned. Lyanna’s brother and Arya’s father. If Arya isn’t beautiful, then Lyanna isn’t either.

C. Lyanna wasn’t a conventional Southern beauty. She was a “wild” beauty, Northern looking and even boyish. None of which matches with Sansa’s appearance – but all of which tallies with Arya.

2: People saw Lyanna and Sansa’s beauty but not “the iron underneath”

A. Ned's comment about Robert not seeing Lyanna's iron seemed far more about Robert’s blindness than Lyanna hiding her iron. The conversation was about Robert’s version of Lyanna, not how Lyanna herself behaved.

B. Nothing suggests Lyanna “hid” her iron. She publicly tipped wine over Benjen, she beat up the squires in the open. There's little indication she hid her strength under courtesy and ladylike behaviour like Sansa did.

3: Lyanna and Sansa were feminine

This may be the argument that raises my hackles the most. For a start this bizarre use of ‘feminine’ gets thrown around without defining what it means. So, just what.

A. Let’s assume ‘feminine’ refers to Westerosi ideal of the perfect lady that Sansa embodies: Girly, concerned with appearances, gracious, a submissive wife etc. Then…everything tells us Lyanna was the opposite to that. She was off wanting to carry swords, squabbling with her brothers, resisting marriage proposals and possibly entering jousts. None of that is traditionally “feminine.”

B. If we take a wider view of feminine as women owning their gender, femininity and role as a woman – Arya isn’t a genderless blob. Her being disguised as a boy and Faceless Men training is about how desperately she clings to her true identity…including her gender. She constantly corrects people about being a girl, takes on a caring and even maternal role (Weasel) and has female heroes.

C. Suggesting Arya is less “female” than Sansa – and thus unworthy of paralleling Lyanna – because she has traditionally boyish interests and fails the Westerosi ideal is pretty appalling tbh.

Random Parallels

1: Lyanna and Sansa were betrothed to a Baratheon

A. Not sure how anyone missed this – it was kinda a major plot point way back – but Joffrey wasn’t a Baratheon. He didn’t act or look like a Baratheon. He was a Lannister through and through.

B. You know who did have a major connection to a Baratheon? You know a Stark girl, Robert’s son legitimately fell for? Oh whoops, Arya. While Robert and Gendry are very different and the Arya/Gendry relationship is more genuine than Robert’s infatuation with Lyanna, it’s a more concrete parallel than Sansa/Joffrey.

C. Don’t know how many times I can say this, but the Joffrey/Sansa vs. Robert/Lyanna parallels highlight Sansa and Lyanna’s differences not their similarities.

2: Lyanna and Sansa Defend the Weak (Howland Reed and Dontas)

A. Yes, Sansa does defend Dontas, that was a great moment. But "defending the weak" is a recurring theme for Arya, while it’s a one off for Sansa. Arya has Mycah, Weasel, going back for Gendry, saving the Northernmen, hanging out with the defenders-of-the-helpless Brotherhood without Banners, saving Sam in Braavos, "they should have killed the masters not the slaves" etc. Arya's story is entwined with defending/befriending the oppressed and downtrodden. Sansa's is not.

B. Arya and Lyanna had much more similar approaches to defending Mycah/Howland scenes in physically beating off the attacker. Sansa's approach differed in using diplomacy and flattery. And "saved someone once" is a pretty loose thematic parallel.

3: Lyanna rejected Robert = Sansa rejected Tyrion

A. Sansa was horrified at marrying a dwarf old enough to be her father after she'd been a prisoner of his abusive family for months. Lyanna didn't want to marry a young, handsome lord who was a good match and arranged by her family.

B. Sansa resisted Tyrion yes, but she didn't reject him and she didn't run away. She endured. Again, going with the Lyanna-went-willingly-with-Rhaegar/ran away version of events – Lyanna rebelled in a much more blatant way.

C. Sansa/Joffrey is a much better parallel to Lyanna/Robert, than Sansa/Tyrion. How Sansa reacted to that situation – an ideal, arranged match – is an accurate point to compare her character to Lyanna. (Man, people really hate these Sansa/Joffrey vs. Lyanna/Robert parallels).

This Ended Up Very Long and I’m Sorry

Ultimately, the problem with framing Sansa as an equal half of Lyanna is you have to mischaracterize all three characters to get there –  Claiming Sansa is more likely to rebel, that Arya has no soft side and Lyanna was a blind romantic. Until we get more book details on the Rhaegar/Lyanna relationship, the main argument falls apart.

If we're talking parallels, it's less that "Sansa was one half of Lyanna" and more "Sansa was the inverse of Lyanna." One was dutiful and one rebelled, one went for her arranged marriage, one rejected it. Which makes sense as Sansa is a foil to Arya…a character who, as the books made clear from the start, does parallel Lyanna.

There are plenty of characters who connect to both Arya and Sansa. Ned and Catelyn reflect different aspects of their daughters. Brienne has two sides that reflect the two of them – both a romantic idealistic and unconventional woman. Let’s talk about those parallels instead.

#my lyanna meta #arya stark #lyanna stark #arya and lyanna #sansa stark #lyanna stark meta #stark meta #arya meta #sansa meta #anti lyanna sansa

[ginmo]

Do you think JB will end together? Like, marrying and maybe even having kids? I know it’s a lot to hope in asoiaf universe, but I so wish they would!

GRRM is aiming for a bittersweet ending. There’s even a quote from him saying that he already knows who’s going to marry who. 

“I know the broad strokes, and I’ve known the broad strokes since 1991. I know who’s going to be on the Iron Throne. I know who’s gonna win some of the battles, I know the major characters, who’s gonna die and how they’re gonna die, and who’s gonna get married and all that. The major characters.” [x]

He clarified that “major characters” includes the main Lannisters. This was said in 2016, after his last asoiaf book, which means marriage is for future books. It could literally be any pairing for one of the major characters, or multiple pairings. My point is, there will be at least one marriage for the major characters that didn’t happen on the show. Personally? I think there’s going to be a couple, and whether or not Jaime and/or Brienne dies by the end, they’ll still be one of them. This is going to be kinda long…..

Brienne - Marriage 

Brienne was introduced to us on an unrequited love plot line.

Brienne was on her feet as well. “Your Grace, give me but a moment to don my mail. You should not be without protection.” King Renly smiled. “If I am not safe in the heart of Lord Caswell’s castle, with my own host around me, one sword will make no matter … not even your sword, Brienne. Sit and eat. If I have need of you, I’ll send for you.” His words seemed to strike the girl harder than any blow she had taken that afternoon. “As you will, Your Grace.” Brienne sat, eyes downcast.- ACOK

Brienne dropped to her knees. “If I must part from Your Grace, grant me the honor of arming you for battle.” Catelyn heard someone snigger behind her. She loves him, poor thing, she thought sadly. She’d play his squire just to touch him, and never care how great a fool they think her. - ACOK

And what’s emphasized in her first PoV?

Renly Baratheon had been more than a king to her. She had loved him since first he came to Tarth on his leisurely lord’s progress, to mark his coming of age. - AFFC

Reciprocated love is her arc. The first time we meet her she’s described as crushing hard on Renly Baratheon, and it’s during the melee at Bitterbridge. The melee is brought up again in AFFC, during one of Brienne’s PoV chapters.

In the mělée at Bitterbridge she had sought out her suitors and battered them one by one, Farrow and Ambrose and Bushy, Mark Mullendore and Raymond Nayland and Will the Stork. She had ridden over Harry Sawyer and broken Robin Potter’s helm, giving him a nasty scar. And when the last of them had fallen, the Mother had delivered Connington to her. This time Ser Ronnet held a sword and not a rose. Every blow she dealt him was sweeter than a kiss.

Loras Tyrell had been the last to face her wroth that day. He’d never courted her, had hardly looked at her at all, but he bore three golden roses on his shield that day, and Brienne hated roses. The sight of them had given her a furious strength. She went to sleep dreaming of the fight they’d had, and of Ser Jaime fastening a rainbow cloak about her shoulders.- AFFC

Let’s look at the structure. The paragraph before Brienne falls asleep is setting up the context for the dream. Paragraph #1 is specifically referencing the men who participated in the bet as her suitors, thus connecting the mělée to an element of her dark, romantic history as Brienne knocks every asshole into the dirt with blows sweeter than a kiss.

Paragraph #2, still connected to the romance theme of paragraph #1, transitions into Brienne falling asleep and dreaming of her last fight with Loras. She then gets cloaked.

Keep in mind that in a wedding ceremony, the groom places a cloak of his house colors around the bride’s shoulders. Now, knowing a professional author is writing this, and there’s a romance theme established in paragraph #1 with the term suitors, and if we’re continuing the theme, in her dream the KG cloaking is symbolic of a wedding ceremony.

Unlike the show’s garbage interpretation of Brienne, her life-long dream has never been about becoming a member some kingsguard (also note, knight and kingsguard are not synonymous. You can become a knight without swearing your life away to a KG). This is why she joined Renly’s:

Renly Baratheon had been more than a king to her. She had loved him since first he came to Tarth on his leisurely lord’s progress, to mark his coming of age. Her father welcomed him with a feast and commanded her to attend; elsewise she would have hidden in her room like some wounded beast. She had been no older than Sansa, more afraid of sniggers than of swords. They will know about the rose, she told Lord Selwyn, they will laugh at me. But the Evenstar would not relent.

And Renly Baratheon had shown her every courtesy, as if she were a proper maid, and pretty. He even danced with her, and in his arms she’d felt and her feet had floated across the floor. Later others begged a dance of her, because of his example. From that day forth, she wanted only to be close to Lord Renly, to serve him and protect him. - AFFC

She literally fell in love with him because he treated her, “as if she were a proper maid, and pretty.” BTW, this is introduced in her first PoV, emphasizing the romance theme to her arc.

Feeling too ugly and unworthy to be a lady, and after three failed betrothals and Brienne crying “bitter tears” over Margaery marrying her king, she left Tarth and pledged her life to Renly in the form of becoming a member of his KG (hmmm joining the kingsguard to be close to someone she loves? Sounds like someone else!). Feeling like a failure as a lady and heir, she played to her more masculine traits and married Renly in the only way she could.

The KG being a form of marriage to her is shown in the dream passage as well, by how after knocking her “suitors” into the dust, she becomes a member of Renly’s KG and essentially marries him. All the suitors are disposed of, but in the end, she allows one man to cloak her.

But… in her dream, the person is no longer Renly LOL. It may be his cloak, but it’s not his face. WHO IS CLOAKING HER? Jaime fucking Lannister.

And guess what? Jaime replaces HER BETROTHED in another dream.

Finally the doors opened, and her betrothed strode into her father’s hall. She tried to greet him as she had been instructed, only to have blood come pouring from her mouth. She had bitten her tongue off as she waited. She spat it at the young knight’s feet, and saw the disgust on his face. “Brienne the Beauty,” he said in a mocking tone.

“I have seen sows more beautiful than you.” He tossed the rose in her face. As he walked away, the griffins on his cloak rippled and blurred and changed to lions. Jaime! she wanted to cry. Jaime, come back for me! But her tongue lay on the floor by the rose, drowned in blood. -AFFC

This is romantic rejection from an actual event that happened to her, and Brienne is unable to stop her betrothed (who turned into Jaime in the dream) from walking away, but GRRM LITERALLY SAID HIS INTENT WAS BEAUTY AND THE BEAST, and since we were introduced to her on an unrequited love plot, with love always being a cruel joke to her, with romantic rejection and how she’s been so unworthy and undesirable as a lover smacking us in the face, RECIPROCATED LOVE IS HER ARC.

And it isn’t just love that’s part of her arc, it’s also MARRIAGE, because it has been connected to marriage.

Brienne - Motherhood

Brienne has a lot of motherly qualities in the books and has also never rejected the idea of being a mother. At one point, she daydreams about her first betrothed and wondered what her life would have been like if he survived childhood.

Had he lived, they would have been wed within a year of her first flowering, and her whole life would have been different. She would not be here now, dressed in man’s mail and carrying a sword, hunting for a dead woman’s child. More like she’d be at Nightsong, swaddling a child of her own and nursing another. It was not a new thought for Brienne. It always made her feel a little sad, but a little relieved as well. - AFFC

Yes, a part of her was relieved. I mean… duh haha. Who wouldn’t be? She was going to marry a stranger, she most likely would have been treated like dirt, she would have been young, and everything about her life would have been different. The point is, the thought still made her sad. If there wasn’t any part of her that desired marriage and motherhood, she would have only felt relief, and, well, “it was not a new thought” for her.

Keep in mind, Brienne thinks she’ll only ever be a fighter because, even though her book personality is very nurturing and motherly, she believes she’s physically unfit to be a lady and mother

“I will tell you true, Brienne. I do not know. My son may be a king, but I am no queen … only a mother who would keep her children safe, however she could.” 

“I am not made to be a mother. I need to fight.” - ACOK

The next bit I wouldn’t really say this is motherhood foreshadowing, but I do still find it interesting that GRRM wanted Catelyn to have a little motherhood discussion with Brienne, when she could have spoken about it to any other character.

“Children are a battle of a different sort.” Catelyn started across the yard. “A battle without banners or warhorns, but no less fierce. Carrying a child, bringing it into the world … your mother will have told you of the pain …” 

“I never knew my mother,” Brienne said. “My father had ladies … a different lady every year, but …”

“Those were no ladies,” Catelyn said. “As hard as birth can be, Brienne, what comes after is even harder. At times I feel as though I am being torn apart. Would that there were five of me, one for each child, so I might keep them all safe.” - ACOK

This next one…

Can it be? Somewhere inside our swordswench is a mother just squirming to give birth. What you really want is a sweet pink babe to suckle at your teat. - AFFC

I mean, it’s Hyle being an ass lol, but I’m not going to ignore the fact an author decided to put that in there, and it’s not the first time the autor connected Brienne to motherhood. 

Also…

“A daughter.” Brienne’s eyes filled with tears. “He deserves that. A daughter who could sing to him and grace his hall and bear him grandsons. He deserves a son too, a strong and gallant son to bring honor to his name. Galladon drowned when I was four and he was eight, though, and Alysanne and Arianne died still in the cradle. I am the only child the gods let him keep. The freakish one, not fit to be a son *or* daughter.” - AFFC

She IS fit to be both! That’s the point! She bitterly thinks that, due to her insecurities. Brienne’s arc: lady, wife, mother, warrior/knight, heir. Her character exists to embrace the outwardly masculine and inwardly feminine traits, becoming it all and redefining what it means to be a lady and woman in that society. 

Jaime - Marriage and Fatherhood

The narrative purpose of Barristan Selmy being released from the KG is to show that it’s possible for members to be dismissed. “A kingsguard serves for life” is mentioned THREE TIMES in ASOS, about Jaime.

“I can,” he interrupted. “And I will. There’s precedent. I’ll look in the White Book and find it, if you like. Crippled or whole, a knight of the Kingsguard serves for life.” - ASOS

“Tywin regarded Jaime as his rightful heir.”

“*Jaime* … Jaime has taken vows. The Kingsguard serve for life.” - ASOS

“I am a knight of the Kingsguard. The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard! And that’s all I mean to be!” - ASOS

I think it’s safe to assume he’s going to be removed from the KG at some point in the books (I suspected for years that Jaime would be released from the KG, so when it happened on the show… well, my thoughts on the show: here). The narrative purpose of releasing Jaime from the KG is to release him from vows, to free him up for marriage and be heir. That’s literally why Tywin wanted him to leave the KG in the first place.

Have some bitter Jaime thoughts.

That was the first time that Jaime understood. It was not his skill with sword and lance that had won him his white cloak, nor any feats of valor he’d performed against the Kingswood Brotherhood. Aerys had chosen him to spite his father, to rob Lord Tywin of his heir.

Even now, all these years later, the thought was bitter. And that day, as he’d ridden south in his new white cloak to guard an empty castle, it had been almost too much to stomach. He would have ripped the cloak off then and there if he could have, but it was too late. He had said the words whilst half the realm looked on, and a Kingsguard served for life. 

Part of Jaime’s arc is to step into that role of heir. He did something stupid and out of love in his youth, and now he’s rediscovering his identity.

As for becoming a father…

Perhaps he was the monster they claimed. If the Father Above came down to offer him back his son or his hand, Jaime knew which he would choose. He had a second son, after all, and seed enough for many more. If Cersei wants another child I’ll give her one … and this time I’ll hold him, and the Others take those who do not like it. Robert was rotting in his grave, and Jaime was sick of lies. 

He turned abruptly and galloped back to find Brienne. Gods know why I bother. She is the least companionable creature I’ve ever had the misfortune to meet. -ASOS

Okay okay look at this. There’s a couple of things to unpack here. 

Jaime never cared for Joffrey. That’s not a secret. If he were to make a decision about choosing joffrey and his hand, it’s implied he’d choose his hand. But then he justifies this by basically saying, “because he was rotten and I have another son anyway and I can always have more children” which shows that the idea of being a father is actually something of value to him. He ACTUALLY WANTS TO FATHER- “this time I’ll hold him.” Which to me is saying that fatherhood is part of his arc, because why else would that development be thrown in there? Sure, it can be there to show he’s maturing as a character and is desiring to be a responsible parent to Tommen, but then what’s the point of throwing in the detail about MAKING MORE children? Wanting to raise them FROM BIRTH this time? And, looking at structure, notice the transition from that paragraph to the next? 

Jaime was sick of lies.

He turned abruptly and galloped back to find Brienne. Gods know why I bother.

LMFAO

WHAT

Jaime thinking about producing future children and how he wants to raise his next child -> Jaime is SICK OF LIES (this is before “He’s lied to you a thousand times, and so have I” And before he finds out about the affairs btw LOL just wait Jaime you’ll be extra fed up) -> WHERE’S BRIENNE? WAIT, GODS, WHY AM I DOING THIS? THIS ISN’T FORESHADOWING SHE’S MY FUTURE OR ANYTHING 

GRRM as the Gods, knowing why he bothers

In AFFC, GRRM still explores this fatherhood desire, even without Cersei.

Once he found the Blackfish, he would be free to return to King’s Landing, where he belonged. My place is with my king. With my son. Would Tommen want to know that? The truth could cost the boy his throne. Would you sooner have a father or a chair, lad? Jaime wished he knew the answer. He does like stamping papers with his seal. The boy might not even believe him, to be sure. Cersei would say it was a lie. My sweet sister, the deceiver. He would need to find some way to winkle Tommen from her clutches before the boy became another Joffrey. And whilst at that, he should find the lad a new small council too. If Cersei can be put aside, Ser Kevan may agree to serve as Tommen’s Hand. - AFFC

And FOR ONE OF MY FAVORITES

Unbidden, his thoughts went to Brienne of Tarth. Stupid stubborn ugly wench. He wondered where she was. Father, give her strength. Almost a prayer … but was it the god he was invoking, the Father Above whose towering gilded likeness glimmered in the candlelight across the sept? Or was he praying to the corpse that lay before him? Does it matter? They never listened, either one. The Warrior had been Jaime’s god since he was old enough to hold a sword. Other men might be fathers, sons, husbands, but never Jaime Lannister, whose sword was as golden as his hair. He was a warrior, and that was all he would ever be. - AFFC

Jaime’s thoughts, unbidden, go to Brienne when he’s thinking of his men getting women pregnant BTW LOL, and this passage SCREAMS the fatherhood theme.

After thinking of women getting pregnant he PRAYS TO THE FATHER FOR BRIENNE. Whether it’s the god or his own father doesn’t matter. The point is, he’s making a connection to Father while praying to keep Brienne safe. And then he thinks about how the Warrior was always his god and, “other men might be fathers, sons, husbands, but never Jaime Lannister, whose sword was as golden as his hair.” WHY?! Why is that bit in there? In the same paragraph? And then end with a sentence that sounds BITTER AF about how he’ll only ever be a warrior? why the fuck did it just jump from Jaime thinking about Brienne, to praying to the father and then “LOL BUT THE WARRIOR let’s randomly talk about my identity”….?? It’s literally completely irrelevant? Unless…the author is connecting Jaime to THE FATHER for him to begin identifying with A DIFFERENT GOD because THAT’S HIS FUTURE and he’s hinting that BRIENNE IS THE ONE TO GIVE HIM THAT WHICH IS WHY HE NEEDS HER SAFE. (And of course Jaime isn’t consciously making these connections, I’m talking about the author’s foreshadowing decisions)

AGAIN

and this time I’ll hold him, and the Others take those who do not like it. Robert was rotting in his grave, and Jaime was sick of lies.

He turned abruptly and galloped back to find Brienne. Gods know why I bother.

And last but not least, the weirdest argument:

“Okay but if Brienne marries Jaime she’d be a lady and he’d make her be something she isn’t.” 

This has always been a really funny argument and my favorite response to this is, “Jaime didn’t give her a valyrian steel sword to make a sandwich with it.” 

Anyway, GRRM once said Brienne is Sansa with a sword. As mentioned above, Brienne never rejected her title as a lady as she does on the show. Book!Brienne ran away because she felt too ugly to be a proper lady. Her insecurities and the mockery she endured caused her to shy away from anything outwardly feminine.

Keeping in mind that Jaime and Brienne are literally designed to be BatB, imo it’s not a coincidence that Jaime and Brienne only think they’ll ever be warriors.

THEY WON’T. 

They’re both going to finally experience genuine reciprocated love, fuck, get married, and maybe parent and if you strongly believe one of them has to die before the end of this then all of this will happen before that death I SAID WHAT I SAID. 

#gm answers #jaime x brienne #brienne of tarth #jaime lannister #asoiaf #.... #.....