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waitingforsecretsouls · 14 days

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Much as I theoretically understand why fandom glomped onto the possibility of the tragic Daeron and Addam romance, it genuinely doesn't seem like the closest explanation the text itself offers. One of the biggest implications people see for this is the paragraph wondering about Tessarion's motivations for intervening in the Vermithor vs Seasmoke fight:

Vermithor’s size and weight were too much for Seasmoke to contend with, Lord Blackwood told Grand Maester Munkun many years later, and he would surely have torn the silver-grey dragon to pieces…if Tessarion had not fallen from the sky at that very moment to join the fight. Who can know the heart of a dragon? Was it simple bloodlust that drove the Blue Queen to attack? Did the she-dragon come to help one of the combatants? If so, which? Some will claim that the bond between a dragon and dragonrider runs so deep that the beast shares his master’s loves and hates. But who was the ally here, and who the enemy? Fire & Blood Chapter 17: The Dying of the Dragons — Rhaenyra Overthrown

People tend to focus a lot on the love aspect and basically ignore the alternate possibility offered up, which is hate as a motivating force.

As happy as I am for people enjoying the concept of Daeron/Addam, let's acknowledge that they have neither actual on page interactions nor as much as implied aquaintanceship, and GRRM is the opposite of subtle when it comes to "hinting" at these things for implied same sex entanglements. One line about Addam, who canonically served on his mothers trading cogs, having previously traveled as far as Oldtown, or Daeron enjoying spending his off - time at Oldtown's or prior to his fostering King's Landings harbour or shipyards would have been sufficient, but instead there's absolutely nothing.

Whereas Daeron and Hugh Hammer, dragonseed and rider of Vermithor, do have canonical interactions, both on page involving dialogue and implied by their close proximity, that develops into a plot relevant enmity, culminating in Hugh stating he'll claim Daeron's birthright for himself, as rider of the largest surviving dragon, and Daeron approving the Caltrops assassination of Hugh in turn.

With his brother Aemond slain as well, the greens found themselves kingless and leaderless. Prince Daeron stood next in the line of succession. Lord Peake declared that the boy should be proclaimed as Prince of Dragonstone at once; others, believing Aegon II dead, wished to crown him king. The Two Betrayers felt the need of a king as well…but Daeron Targaryen was not the king they wanted. “We need a strong man to lead us, not a boy,” declared Hard Hugh Hammer. “The throne should be mine.” When Bold Jon Roxton demanded to know by what right he presumed to name himself a king, Lord Hammer answered, “The same right as the Conqueror. A dragon.” And truly, with Vhagar dead at last, the oldest and largest living dragon in all Westeros was Vermithor, once the mount of the Old King, now that of Hard Hugh the bastard. Vermithor was thrice the size of Prince Daeron’s she-dragon Tessarion. No man who glimpsed them together could fail to see that Vermithor was a far more fearsome beast. [...] The lords and knights of Oldtown and the Reach were offended by the arrogance of the Betrayer’s claim, however, and none more so than Prince Daeron Targaryen himself, who grew so wroth that he threw a cup of wine into Hard Hugh’s face. (...) Lord Hammer said, “Little boys should be more mannerly when men are speaking. I think your father did not beat you often enough. Take care I do not make up for his lack.” The Two Betrayers took their leave together, and began to make plans for Hammer’s coronation. When seen the next day, Hard Hugh was wearing a crown of black iron, to the fury of Prince Daeron and his trueborn lords and knights.

[...] Though Prince Daeron was not present at the council, the Caltrops (as the conspirators became known) were loath to proceed without his consent and blessing. Owen Fossoway, Lord of Cider Hall, was dispatched under cover of darkness to wake the prince and bring him to the cellar, that the plotters might inform him of their plans. Nor did the once-gentle prince hesitate when Lord Unwin Peake presented him with warrants for the execution of Hard Hugh Hammer and Ulf White, but eagerly affixed his seal. Fire & Blood Chapter 17: The Dying of the Dragons — Rhaenyra Overthrown

Which seams like a far more (meaning: at all) established backdrop for that musing about sharing loves and hates to me.

Tldr; Less "love wins" and more "haterism transcending death" for Daeron the Daring.

#asoiaf #hotd spoiler #potentially #daeron targaryen #addam velaryon #hugh hammer #tessarion #as mentioned no shade to people who enjoy it but to me it's even more milquetoast than the one line about Rhaenyra and Laena #(also rip to Aemond for being overshadowed by his brothers even at being a hater)#it's not like I don't understand why people would see it the whole “mating dance” comment etc #but rather that even if such was his intention that GRRM barely even bothered you know?#of course as stated previously I am of the belief that Daeron was actually involved in Tessarions battles #but if you subscribe to his early death + Tessarion fuelled by his emotions then this would be my opinion on Tessarion's weird decision #which is what in universe sources run with (Daeron's death prior to Tessarions battles against Seasmoke and Vermithor)

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mejcinta · 8 months

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Lately, I noticed lots of people getting delicate around Aemond and Alys' relationship, claiming that either he raped her or she groomed him.

The book depicts the beginning of their relationship «Prince Aemond had taken her into his bed as a prize of war soon after taking Harrenhal». During the dance, terms such as "take to bed" and "spoils of war" are also used in reference to the Daemon and Nettles, and to the Jon Roxton and Sharis Footly:

1) «Daemon Targaryen had come to love the small brown bastard girl, and had taken her into his bed» but does this necessarily mean that the Demon raped Nettles, as the show has already established his pedophilic tendencies (the young girls whom were offered to him in the brothel, both Laena and Rhaenyra were groomed by him, since one was around 15-16, other never was able to form her charachter without his influence).

2)«Bold Jon Roxton became enamored of Lady Sharis after the First Battle of Tumbleton, and claimed her as a “prize of war.” When her lord husband protested, Ser Jon cut him nigh in two with Orphan-Maker. Sharis wept as he tore her gown», her reaction made it clear that she was assaulted.

Now let's look at the relationship between Alys and Aemond, the background of their characters and how their relationship was later described.

Alys Rivers was a bastard of House Strong, Grand Maester Munkun and Septon Eustace refer her as a bastard of Lord Lyonel Strong. The general attitude towards bastards stems from religious beliefs, where those born out of wedlock are seen as a weakness and dishonour of their parents, and are therefore treated with disdain. The treatment of female bastards is even worse, when in such a feudal and patriarchal society as Westeros, they have far more limited opportunities to improve their position than male ones. "A Feast for Crows" introduces a bastard girl named Falia Flowers, whose family mistreated her and forced her into servitude, and after Euron Greyjoy takes control over her castle, she willingly goes with him because she was enough of the miserable life in her parental household.

While her parentage remains dubious, her surname clearly indicates that she was the daughter of a nobleman. But unlike bastards like Jon Snow or Rhaenyra’s sons, she was a servant to her relatives and after her own children were born dead she served as a wet nurse, an occupation historically regarded as exploitative of women. Not only she was a servant, but also accused in witchcraft (whether it is true or not), it always is followed by social stigma, discrimination and marginalisation of women.

Obviously power imbalance on Aemond’s side, making her unable to groom her, and how could she do it to an ADULT. But how later their relationship was described:

-“it was Aemond alone who had become besotted with the Rivers woman, to such an extent he could not bear the thought of leaving her”;

- after the defeat at the battle by the lakeshore he almost strangled the messenger to death if not for Alys be the only one who could stop him, so he valued her enough;

- when alys was captured by sabitha frey, instead of asking for help if she was his hostage, she proclaims that she is carrying his child, and aemond later came to rescue her and she run with him;

- he brought her to battle above the god’s eye with him and kissed her as last thing he did in life;

- after his death she proclaimed herself as his widow even she would gain nothing from it, and when some man dared to insult her son with Aemond, he was immediately killed, either she ordered someone to do that or even blowed up this man’s head herself.

While show revealed Aemond had unpleasant first sexual experience and called out Aegon’s tastes as depraved, can be assumed that they will not make him force himself on Alys. So the term "prize of war" could be thrust upon them by others and should be seen as such if Alys and Aemond consider it as that.

You know, people can project all they want on Alys, Aemond and their relationship, but one thing the show has made clear is that they're 'softening' Aemond. He's not nearly a scrary brute as his book counterpart (which I still find interesting). There's more nuance to his character, and the same will go for Alys (like Alicent and Rhaenyra's characters).

Hoping that Aemond is made abusive and Alys some sadistic witch is so...boring, unoriginal, petty and bitter. There's nothing remotely new or interesting story-wise about that. But let's just wait and see.

#anon #alys rivers #aemond targaryen #aemond × alys #alysmond #fire and blood

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alba-targaryen · 1 year

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Blacks vs Greens conflict is not about feminism vs patriarchy (though women would fare better under Rhaenyra's rule simply because everyone would), not about "the king's word is law" vs "tradition is law" (though it's close) and not even about good vs bad (though it's very close).

It's about "oath keeping" vs "oath breaking", " honor" vs "opportunism". Oaths are a big thing in ASOIAF, and F&B is setting some background for the main series. In the main books, we are given POVs and nuances: the oaths are rigid, life is complicated, and people sometimes have to make complicated choices, gallant knights could be monsters, and the lofty moral standards could be better upheld by the most unlikely knights (like Brienne or Duncan).

F&B, though, in its Dance chapters is showing us much simpler, "default" picture of Westeros: "you keep to your word - you are good guy", "you break you word when it suits you - you can't be trusted at all". (And trust is hell of important thing if families somehow manage to live for thousands years with the same surnames in the same location.)

"True knights" topic is kinda still there though. The Reach is supposed to be the cradle of knighthood and Faith (note how quiet High Septon is during the whole Dance, btw), but somehow the Reach Greens are the worst. Myles Hightower steals from the treasury, Jon Roxton rapes Lady Sharis Footly and kills her husband, Unwin Peake stabs his own ally Lord Bourney in the eye right in the middle of the council meeting and (very likely) kills Jaehaera later. Tumbleton and Bitterbridge don't really need commenting.

#fire and blood #dance of the dragons #asoiaf meta #blacks vs greens #team black #targaryens #book!greens #it's all in the books #sorry not sorry

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duxbelisarius · 1 year

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The Dance of the Dragons: A Military Analysis (Pt. 11)

(Consider this Part 2 of the Tumbleton analysis; see the Master Post for the rest of the series)

Despite telling us that the town was “reduced to ash and embers” and that “no mercy was shown the survivors,” we’re led to believe that there are still houses and shops to be robbed and inhabitants remaining to rape and murder after being razed by the fire of three dragons. We’re told that Lord Ormund’s successors had fallen victim to “avarice, bloodlust, and pride,” but were apparently never motivated to turn their eyes to King’s Landing, a place where they could loot, murder and rape to a far greater extent than in the smoldering ruins of a dead town. Similar to Aemond burning the Riverlands without actually inflicting any major damage, the bloodlust of the Greens is both boundless AND easily sated, whatever is necessary to ensure George’s preferred ending.

Thanks to the ridiculously contrived actions of Roderick Dustin, the Hightower Army is suddenly paralyzed by a command crisis; apparently there were only three senior Hightowers in the entire army and two of them are dead, while third is 60 year-old Hobert Hightower, a cousin of Ormund. Hobert is to the Hightower army what Humfrey Lefford was to the Lannister army, an aged, physically unfit man cooked up by George to keep the plot moving in his desired direction, even if it makes no sense whatsoever. Placed in charge of the baggage train, we’re told he is slow, stout and completely undistinguished, and the Green lords seem to ignore him.

The first issue with the command crisis is why it should even happen in the first place; after Jason Lannister’s death the Westerlands army found a new commander in Adrian Tarbeck, a landed knight of a noble house but who was otherwise unconnected to the Lannister family, while Lord Humfrey Lefford succeeded Tarbeck with little difficulty. The Frey forces fall-in behind Sabitha Frey, the wife of Lord Forrest Frey, with no apparent issue either, while the Blackwood forces end up being commanded by a 13 year old boy, Benjicot Blackwood, after the death of Lord Samwell. It makes little sense why the Hightower army should suddenly be treated differently, and the same can be said for the actual rivalry between the ‘candidates’ for command. The five men vying for command are Lord Unwin Peake, Ser Jon Roxton, Lord Owain Bourney and the Two Betrayers, Hugh Hammer and Ulf the White. Roxton and Bourney are by far the most contrived; Roxton is a landed knight with little in the way of credentials beyond his battle prowess, and is not connected to a major house in the Reach (unlike Adrian Tarbeck for example). Bourney ends up being killed in a dispute with Unwin Peake, but his only real argument was that he should command the army for his role in opening Tumbleton to the attackers; other than this, Bourney is a minor lord and not even a Reacher lord, so there’s no good reason why he should have been considered above the likes of Unwin Peake or Prince Daeron. Unwin Peake is the obvious choice to the lead the army and does so after the Second Battle, but this just makes the crisis appear even more contrived. Aside from the Redwynes, House Peake is the only other major house in the Reach that we know supported Aegon from the start, with Unwin Peake raising 100 knights and 900 men-at-arms for the cause. He was present at the Battle of the Honeywine, after which his only son was killed while leading a scouting mission; George establishes him as a ruthless authoritarian during the Regency of Aegon III, after the end of the Dance. His character and House Peake’s impressive holdings within the Reach, comprised of no less than three keeps (Starpike, Dunstonbury, Whitegrove), should make him the clear favourite to command the Hightower army. It appears his inclusion in the crisis was primarily intended by George to set-up his later arc in Aegon III’s Regency however.

The command crisis leads to conflict between the Two Betrayers and the so-called “Caltrops,” a group of Reacher lords headed by Unwin Peake and Hobert Hightower who conspire against Ulf and Hugh. With their egos inflated by the sack of Tumbleton, Ulf and Hugh set their sights on Highgarden and the Iron Throne respectively; while this presents the Green lords with an understandable dilemma, as Vermithor and Silverwing would be valuable for taking King’s Landing, the debates that result are largely drawn out in service of George’s plot aims. This is best illustrated when Richard Rodden (one of the “Caltrops”) denounces plans to take King’s Landing with the Betrayers before killing them, as dishonourable. Rodden argues that, “we cannot ask these men to shed blood with us, then kill them,” and yet this is effectively what they plan to do anyway; while the Betrayers fought beside them in the First Battle and ensured a Green victory, the Caltrops still plan to kill them both. It makes no sense why this debate, or any of these debates really, should keep the Hightower army frozen in place. Even more bizarre is the complete absence of any of the major Reach houses and former Black lords in this scenario. As alluded to in Part 6, Unwin Peake, Hobert Hightower and Owen Fossoway are the only lords mentioned that come from major houses, while the rest of the Caltrops and other notables of the army seem to be minor lords and landed knights. Even though Daeron and Tessarion forced the submission of most of Rhaenyra’s Reach supporters, none of these former Black lords play any role in the events at Tumbleton. With news of the riots in King’s Landing filtering in, one might expect Rhaenyra’s former supporters in the Hightower army to begin developing their own agenda, maybe even aligning with the Two Betrayers and turning on Daeron and the Greens. Nothing of the sort takes place, and even when the “Caltrops” decide to murder Ulf and Hugh, they conveniently wait two days after making the decision, whereupon the Riverlords and Addam Velaryon attack.

While ‘Daeron the Daring’ should be an obvious choice for leadership, Gyldan tells us that he was “still a boy” and more used to following orders than giving them, after having grown up in the shadow of his brothers. Based on what we were shown and told previously of Daeron, it’s clear that George retconned his character outright to serve his narrative at Tumbleton. We know Daeron was born shortly after Jacaerys Velaryon in 114 AC; despite the two being milk-brothers, Daeron grew up to resent and be a rival of the Velaryon brothers for what he saw as their usurpation of his and his brothers birth right. By age 6 he had bonded with the dragon Tessarion, while he was considered the most popular of Alicent’s three sons at court by age 12, “as clever as he was courteous, and most comely as well.” He was sent to Oldtown at age 12 as a ward to his uncle Ormund, serving as the squire and cupbearer of the Lord of the Hightower, and is described as gentle, soft-spoken and modest by Gyldan following his intervention in the Battle of the Honeywine. His reaction to the death of Prince Maelor shows that he was capable of cruelty, but his role in the Sack of Bitterbridge was clearly motivated by a love for his family and pain at the loss of his nephew.

Gyldan labelling Daeron a ‘boy’ makes little sense when compared to his assessment of Jacaerys Velaryon; when he won the support of the North and the Vale despite offering little in return (see Part One for my discussion of this), Gyldan tells that “Prince Jacaerys had proved himself a man, and worthy heir to the Iron Throne.” He was half a year from turning 15 at the time, compared to which the slightly younger Daeron intervened in the Battle of the Honeywine, singlehandedly saving the Green war effort. Tessarion’s deterrent factor also helped to transform the Hightower army from being hopelessly outnumbered into a seemingly all-conquering force. Daeron’s service as the cupbearer and squire of Ormund Hightower, combined with his use of Tessarion to reconnoiter ahead of the army and support it in battle, makes it impossible for Daeron to not have developed relationships with the lords and knights around him. The former gave him a front row seat to the politics of Oldtown and the Reach, while the latter would require him to pass on information to Ormund and his commanders and coordinate his actions with those of the army at large.

With Aegon missing, his two sons dead and Aemond having gone AWOL in the Riverlands, Daeron is both the ward of Lord Hightower AND the heir apparent; it should be a no-brainer for the lords and knights of the army to curry his favour, especially former Blacks looking to improve their standing and prove their loyalty. There is no reason for Daeron to suddenly become a non-entity during the command crisis at Tumbleton, and the idea of him being a ‘follower’ after living in the shadow of his brothers has next to no support. He surpassed Aemond at age six by forming a bond with a dragon, and was more popular than BOTH his older brothers at court by age 12; he then spent his formative teenage years apart from them both, in what amounted to an apprenticeship for becoming a lord and knight. His clear love of his family should also strongly motivate him, as we see from both the Sack of Bitterbridge, and his later action of throwing wine in Hugh’s face for suggesting that either of them should claim Aegon’s crown. The idea that he would willingly settle for inactivity while his mother and sister are imprisoned by the Blacks, and possibly gang-raped if the ‘Brothel Queens’ rumors can be believed, is simply ludicrous.

This contrived crisis of command is only made worse however, as Gyldan writes that “none seemed concerned that their army was shrinking every day...as more and more men deserted, stealing off for home and harvest with all the plunder they could carry,” while disease also took root according to Maester Munkun. Since disease would obviously affect the lords commanding the army as much as the soldiers themselves, this only makes it more difficult to believe that the Hightower army would remain at Tumbleton for an entire month given such hazards. George invoking the harvest at this point in the narrative is just unserious, given how little it seems to matter outside the North. Lest we forget, it was already autumn when the Dance descended into open fighting, yet the harvest appears not to have affected the mobilization of the Riverlords or the Reach, the two most important regions in Westeros for agriculture.

George further handicaps the Hightower Army, in what practically amounts to excuse making for his narrative. Unwin Peake recommends waiting for Borros Baratheon to join them with his army, but no mention is made of any attempts to contact Storm’s End. We’ll discuss the absence of Borros Baratheon from the Dance more so in Part 12, but it bears mentioning that the Stormlands is right next door to the northern Reach, so the absence of the Baratheon army is difficult to explain away. Hobert Hightower argues that the army should withdraw back to the Reach “to replenish their fast-dwindling supplies,” which is problematic on multiple levels. Firstly, Tumbleton is within the borders of the Reach, but perhaps this was an editing error and it was meant for the army to withdraw further into the Reach. It is an odd choice to suddenly raise the issue of logistics now, given how cavalierly George treats it in his narrative; the autumn and winter weather seems to have a varied impact on the plot, while we’ve already mentioned in Part 5 and 6 how George basically ignores the existence of rivers. The Hightower army should have access to both the Roseroad AND the Mander river for transporting supplies, and it just recently confiscated the food and wealth of Longtable. Also worth mentioning is Gyldan’s description of the Gardener-Lannister army that fought at the Field of Fire, where he states that “a host of such size must remain on the march, lest it eat the surrounding countryside bare.” While the Hightower army was less than half the size of the Gardener-Lannister host, the same logic should apply; given the destruction of Tumbleton and the logistical pressures the army would have faced, remaining in the same location for a month makes even less sense. Indeed, such pressures would have made the capture of King’s Landing that much more vital, especially when word of the riots and chaos became known; not only would taking the city provide opportunities for plunder, but the Hightower army could replenish it’s food supplies at the city’s expense, while the riots would have greatly reduced the possibility of organized resistance. These explanations for why the Hightower army is further delayed just end up raising more questions than answers, and poke even more holes in George’s narrative.

The Second Battle of Tumbleton is a massive contrivance all it’s own, as neither Addam Velaryon nor the Riverlords have reason or business being there. Addam’s reasoning is chalked up to his being a bastard, and trying to demonstrate his loyalty by defeating the Two Betrayers who had ‘stained’ him, but this makes no more sense than Jeyne Arryn supporting Rhaenyra on account of their both being women. The person who stained Addam IS Rhaenyra, not Hugh or Ulf, because he did nothing wrong to begin with; Corlys knew this of course, which is why he warned his son and helped him escape the city on Seasmoke. Since Corlys allows himself to be arrested by the Gold Cloaks, it’s clear he expected to be charged with treason and imprisoned; in light of this, it makes no sense why Addam would abandon his father as opposed to try and rescue him. He has his own dragon, Baela and Moondancer have been flying regularly from Dragonstone by this point, and Alyn Velaryon is with his father’s fleet; half her army and the entirety of her fleet comes from the Velaryons, and these forces began to desert Rhaenyra in droves following Corlys’ arrest, so Addam could easily have enlisted their aid in forcing the queen to free his father. It wouldn’t even be that difficult, since most of the city already hated her by this point, and would gladly have supported the Velaryons in deposing ‘Maegor with Teats.’

Instead, a bastard on the run from the law chooses not to seek out immediate support for the rescue of his father, but rather flies to a region he has little experience with to convince lords sworn to the very Queen who dubbed him a traitor, to help him defeat a 20000+ army supported by three dragons. But it gets even more nonsensical when we consider that he would have fled the city May 2nd, long before Nettles’ arrest orders reached Maidenpool or the Battle over the God’s Eye took place. One might expect him to seek the aid of Daemon at Maidenpool or warn Nettles at least, but he conveniently never encounters either of them in their final days of searching for Aemond, nor does he encounter Aemond. Even more conveniently, not a word of Addam’s efforts reaches the Green army at Tumbleton either directly or even indirectly via Storm’s End, Oldtown and Casterly Rock. This despite the fact that news of Aemond’s death got to them after some delay, and that there were many in the Riverlands that supported or once supported the Greens; this includes House Mooton of Maidenpool, who raised Aegon’s banner after Daemon departed, previously mentioned names like Bracken, Butterwell and Vance of Atranta, and likely Lord Bourney’s subjects, since Owain decided independently to betray Tumbleton to the Greens.

We’ve already mentioned in Part 9 how George continues to ignore the weather unless it immediately serves his plot, but it bears repeating that winter should be in it’s first weeks in the Riverlands and any harvesting should be the priority (especially if men are deserting the Hightower army for the harvest in the Reach). When it comes to how Addam was able to gain the allegiance of House Tully AND raise an army of 4000 men, George uses the tried and true Naruto Shippuden plot device of ‘Talk-no-jutsu’: “Addam Velaryon was relentless and determined and glib of tongue...” Gyldan at least mentions that the Riverlords were appalled by stories of what was happening at Tumbleton, but as stated already, the Hightower army far outnumbers Addam’s own host AND possesses three dragons. Given the destruction brought on by the war and the continued threat of Aemond and Vhagar, it makes no sense why any of the Riverlords would risk fighting with such steep odds. The army consists of forces from House Blackwood, led by the 12 year-old Benjicot Blackwood; House Frey under Lady Sabitha Frey, as well as from House Vypren under her father and brothers leadership; House Vance of Wayfarer’s Rest, under Hugo Vance and joined by Black Trombo’s Myrish sellswords; and fresh levies raised by Lords Stanton Piper, Joseth Smallwood, Derrick Darry and Lyonel Deddings. F&B and TWOIAF claim that Elmo Tully led the Riverlords at Tumbleton with his own forces of House Tully, but since neither Elmo Tully or even the Tully name is mentioned in F&B’s account of the Second Battle, and the Tullys do not feature in that part of TPATQ’s narrative at all, the most that could be suggested is that Elmo Tully led the Riverlords in the role of acting Paramount of the Trident.

In terms of how the Second Battle was fought, George once again forgets his own geography and ignores previously established plot points. If we consult the map of the south in ADWD and the map of the Reach in TWOIAF, we can see that Tumbleton is located on the left bank of the Mander, just south of the hills where it’s headwaters are found. As we’re told that the Riverlord army attacked the Hightower army from the north and west, this poses an obvious problem; to attack Tumbleton from the north requires you to navigate the hills AND ford the headwaters of the Mander, and one must make a wide sweep around these obstacles to attack the town from the west. Even the town itself might be an obstacle depending on where the Hightower army was encamped; we know Hugh and Ulf were encamped to the south, with Daeron encamped to the west and many of the lords staying in the town itself. Not only did the Riverlords have to march on Tumbleton unnoticed through unfamiliar territory, they then had to launch simultaneous night attacks with largely inexperienced troops, while being separated by distance, natural obstacles AND an enemy encampment protected by three dragons. The attack from the west presents a further problem, as we know that Daeron’s pavilion was located west of the town along with Tessarion’s resting place. Being massive and magical apex predators, we should expect the dragons own senses to have aided them in detecting an attack; in Birth, Death, and Betrayal Under King Jaehaerys I, we’re told that Rhaena and Dreamfyre’s arrival at Storm’s End was noticed by Vermithor before anyone saw them, as the Bronze Fury raised his head from where he was sleeping a let out a loud roar, after picking up Dreamfyre’s scent. Vhagar was likewise able to detect the arrival of Lucerys and Arrax at Storm’s End, roaring loudly and alerting the entire castle before the smaller dragon was seen by the sentries, and in both instances it is implied that this awareness was possible despite the dragons sleeping. Yet at Second Tumbleton, we’re told that Tessarion, Silverwing and Vermithor “roused as the battle bloomed around them,”; there’s no excuse for why not one of these dragons detected the approach of Seasmoke, except that George either forgot or ignored it for the purposes of his plot.

The last thing I’ll comment on regarding Second Tumbleton is Daeron’s death, or at least the accounts we’re given of his supposed death. I’m certain that Daeron met his end at Tumbleton, but none of the three accounts Gyldan gives us are compelling. The first two, that he was killed by Black Trombo or by a man-at-arms who was unaware of his identity, can be easily discounted; we know that Daeron’s pavilion was to the west of the town, making it certain that he was on the frontlines of the fight. It would have been simple to report his death to any of the Riverlords leading the charge, or to simply display his head on a spear or banner; Trombo should also have been able to claim some of his belongings as trophies of his kill, but we know of nothing of Daeron’s personal effects being found after the fire in his tent. The tent fire theory is similarly unlikely, as we know that even in cases where people have been exposed directly to dragon fire, some remains are left that can be identified. When Rhaenys and Meleys fell at Rook’s Rest, the remains of Rhaenys were found near Meleys’ body despite having been horribly burned, while Dragonstone’s Castellan Ser Robert Quince could still be identified by his size despite being burned alive by Sunfyre (after Aegon II’s seizes the island). Daeron is supposed to have burned after his pavilion caught fire and collapsed on him, but this requires us to believe that he slept so soundly that the commotion of battle and the smoke and flames did not wake him, and that no one was able to return to the location of his pavilion post-battle and search the wreckage for remains. Contrary to Gyldan’s claims that only Seasmoke flew with a rider during the Battle, I believe that Daeron rode with Tessarion during her initial clash with Seasmoke, and possibly during the battle with Vermithor afterwards. Most likely he fell from her back at some point during the fighting and his body was never recovered, especially if he landed in the Mander or fell into the fires of Tumbleton.

The Riverlords lost less than a hundred men compared to the over a thousand men lost by the Greens; Addam, Daeron, Ulf and Hugh were all dead by the following day, when the battle at last ended, and only Silverwing survived of the four dragons. The Riverlords made no attempt to march on King’s Landing and restore order, while the remnants of the Hightower army remained around the ruined town for another day before marching back towards Oldtown under Unwin Peake’s command. The Dance would continue for another year however, and it is to this final period that we will now turn our attention.

#house of the dragon #hotd #team green #team black #grrm critical #fire and blood critical #asoiaf critical #asoiaf #daeron the daring #daeron targaryen

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twoiafart · 2 years

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LORD UNWIN AND TESSARIO Artwork by Grzegorz Przybyś

Unwin surrounded himself with his own personal guard: ten richly paid sellswords called the Fingers, led by a Volantene named Tessario the Tiger for the tiger stripes tattooed across his face and back, which marked him as a former slave soldier; Tessario would earn the king’s enmity when he killed Ser Robin Massey in a quarrel over a horse. Lord Unwin wished to project strength and sternness, unlike the soft-spoken Ser Tyland Lannister before him. He made a show of the fact that he had appropriated Orphan-Maker, the Valyrian steel sword Bold Jon Roxton had carried at Tumbleton.

#asoiaf art #unwin peake #tessario the tiger #grzegorz przybys

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horizon-verizon · 1 year

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Septon Eustace and Grand Maester Munkun both assert that Prince Daeron was sickened by all he saw and commanded Ser Hobert Hightower to put a stop to it, but Hightower’s efforts proved as ineffectual as the man himself. It is in the nature of smallfolk to follow where their lords lead, and Lord Ormund’s would-be successors had themselves fallen victim to avarice, bloodlust, and pride. Bold Jon Roxton became enamored of the beautiful Lady Sharis Footly, the wife of the Lord of Tumbleton, and claimed her as a “prize of war.” When her lord husband protested, Ser Jon cut him nigh in two with Orphan Maker, saying, “She can make widows too,” as he tore the gown from the weeping Lady Sharis. Only two days later, Lord Peake and Lord Bourney argued bitterly at a war council, until Peake drew his dagger and stabbed Bourney through the eye, declaring, “Once a turncloak, ever a turncloak,” as Prince Daeron and Ser Hobert looked on, horror struck.

Fire and Blood by GRRM, pg 495-496

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aegor-bamfsteel · 2 years

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Would you say Fire and Blood was biased against the Greens? I didn't like how GRRM wrote the battles or how he made the Blacks cooler despite everything they did.

The idea that GRRM was biased against the Greens when writing the Dance is common, and if you look at how he wrote the Dance versus other Westerosi historical civil wars like Robert’s Rebellion or the First Blackfyre (not including War of the Five Kings because that’s the narrative main series and ofc has the best in terms of characterization). you see that idea makes a lot of sense. Yes, there are designated protagonists in all these conflicts—the Rebels, the Reds, the Starks—but there is dimension to both sides. The opposing forces—the Royalists, the Blacks, Baratheon of King’s Landing—had sensible reasons to fight (ranging from practical to honorable to selfish), had great heroes or at least decent men fighting for them, innocent victims whose deaths at the hands of the protagonist side had lasting consequences, and fair victories on even footing. The Greens…don’t really have a lot of that. Their victories occur because of betrayal and overwhelmingly superior numbers (though they often still lose by getting ambushed and outflanked even when they had more men). They do have some noble people fighting for them (Rickard Thorne, Amos Bracken, Gyles Belgrave), but they get killed and forgotten quickly, as do the innocent victims (Helaena and her children, Gwayne Hightower). The majority of the non-Targaryen Greens are terrible people (cartoonishly evil Unwin Peake, rapists Jon Roxton and Ulf White and possibly Ironrod, treacherous torturers Larys Strong and George Graceford, would be child murderers Tyland Lannister and Alfred Broome, needlessly violent Criston Cole and Hugh Hammer), and even the otherwise decent Daeron the Daring sacked Bitterbridge out of vengeance for his nephew, killing hundreds. While there are definitely sympathetic reasons for the Greens (such as protecting Andal culture and rightly fearing Dæmon on the Throne), outside of Ironrod that’s never really fleshed out, with instead Criston making sexist and homophobic remarks while Tyland and Grover talk about how the oaths to Rhânyra weren’t binding. Compared to the reasons the Blackfyre and Targaryen supporters had for siding with their chosen faction, it’s really lacking.

Of course, the Blacks have their share of terrible people who do similarly (Dæmon, Rhænyra, Mysariá) but they also have great heroes—both tragic and happy (Greens just get the tragic heroes)—either making their last stand against impossible odds because vassals called for aid (Rhaenys Targaryen, Roderick Dustin) or trying to prove that illegitimate children can be loyal (Addam Velaryon) or even just teenagers defeating numerically superior armies with their pluckiness (the Lads, despite many of them involved in what Westerosi would consider war crimes, like burning holy places or killing people at a parley. They aren’t condemned for this by the narrative) and becoming the leaders of their regions. The Blacks get to be full characters and a well developed faction. Just look at the characters GRRM made foils: Rhænyra vs Alicent&Aegon, Dæmon vs Aemond, Larys vs Mysaria, Addam and Nettles vs Hugh and Ulf, Jace/Luke/Joff vs Daeron, and you can really see how the Blacks get the heroes or at least some sympathetic traits, whereas the Greens are mostly just villains. In other civil wars, GRRM makes sure to give the antagonists at least some sympathetic characters and justification, despite giving them less page time (though in the case of the Targaryens, this works against them, as they were such cruel inept rulers the Blackfyres look better by comparison imo). I think he really did skimp on developing the Greens to make the already very amoral Black faction look better, to the point there’s not much nuance in any of them.

I’ll end this by saying, of course this isn’t accurate to history. The real-life supporters of King Stephen were well-rounded and competent, especially his wife Queen Mathilde, who was able to raise an army with her brother-in-law to chase Empress Matilda out of London, capture Matilda’s strongest supporter Robert of Gloucester, and exchange him for the imprisoned Stephen, as well as to get the Scots to stay neutral by negotiating with her and Matilda’s mutual uncle David. She is not comparable to the tragic and troubled Helaena nor the now-you-see-her-now-you-don’t Alicent. She predeceased her husband, but her line didn’t die out, because her daughter Marie succeeded her…as Countess of Boulogne, which she had ruled in her own right prior to marriage. That’s what gets me about the way the Dance ended with Jaehaera’s tragic suicide, there are no more of Alicent’s descendants anywhere (unless you count Aegon II’s illegitimate children or Alys Rivers’ son), not even a girl. It’s like if they weren’t on the Iron Throne, they’re useless to the story. It wouldn’t have hurt the story to have Jaehaera marry back into the Hightowers if GRRM didn’t want her to be mother to Aegon III’s kids.

#ask #opinion #dance of the dragons #grrm critical #asoiaf

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