#it’s why I loved it when Luke dragged the old Jedi Order for being hypocritical and self-righteous dicks who helped create Darth Vader

[gch1995]

Hi! Been thinking about Luke and Vader. How do you think Luke went from wanting to die to believing there was good in Vader? What caused that change/acceptance?

I have a lot of sympathy for Anakin/Darth Vader, and I don’t think it’s fair to place blame on just him for becoming such a deeply dysfunctional and horrifying human disaster as an adult, considering how deeply compromised his agency was his entire life under a series of abusive, hypocritical, and oppressive authority figures within a dystopian galaxy’s fucked up institutions. However, that doesn’t mean Luke wouldn’t have still had absolutely every right to hate his father for hurting him, his friends, and the many other people throughout the galaxy either.

Yet, ultimately Luke didn’t hate his father, even after Darth Vader reached out to him through the force by torturing his son’s friends, stalking him, abducting him, terrorizing him, threatening him, and cutting off his hand to try to coerce him to join the dark side in Empire Strikes Back.

Why?

I think the most obvious reason is that, with a little space and time to recover from the trauma that his father put him through in his efforts to find him and recruit him to the dark side, Luke ultimately sensed the good within Anakin beneath the darkness after he revealed that he was doing all this because Luke was his son, his family, who wanted freedom from Sidious and someone better to bond with than that sadistic asshole his current master was.

Also, in spite of how awful and dangerous it was for Anakin to terrorize Luke, cut off his hand, and threaten him like that on Bespin to try to recruit him to the dark side, he intentionally goes out of his way to avoid outright killing his son by going easy on him battle, giving him chances to escape, and trying to recruit him to the dark side to bond with his son and gain freedom, rather than bringing him to the Emperor.

Yes, he’s being awful, cowardly, and selfish in his methods, but Anakin is also trying to more easily avoid the possibility of one of them getting killed by Palpatine or one another by going after his son to try to recruit him to the dark side to overthrow the Emperor because he knows his master will do worse to Luke and/or himself if he finds out the truth about his son still being alive and a Jedi.

In Empire Strikes Back, Anakin also tells Luke “Don’t make me destroy you” when his son skitters away from him in terror. Though he went about looking for Luke pretty obsessively to try to recruit him for the dark side, once his son actually refuses to be swayed to the dark side by his father on Bespin after being abducted, terrorized, and amputated by him, Anakin notably doesn’t keep hunting down Luke to try to recruit him to the dark side or personally kill him for refusing after he runs away in terror in the movie. He’s upset about it, sure, but he really never wanted for Luke to be killed or hurt long term either.

Then, you also have to examine the fact that Luke didn’t really ever view Owen and Beru Lars as his parents. Though they loved Luke, and he loved them, Owen and Beru still never encouraged Luke to view them as his parents either. They were Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen to Luke, but never mom and dad to him. Luke really wanted someone to be able to identify as his parents. Anakin, flawed as he was, was the first person in Luke’s life to identify themselves as one his parents he had been missing his whole life, which is also why he was particularly desperate to bond with his father and inspire him to turn back to the light side.

If you guys want to chime in, you can!

@abla-soso

@fanfic-lover-girl

@fanfictasia

@komikbookgeek

@yoghurtconsumer

#fanfic-lover-girl #star wars asks #when and why did Luke go from fearing his father to believing in his goodness deep down? #I think it was a couple months to a year after Vader encountered him in empire strikes back. #because Luke realized that for as horrifying as Vader had been he still went out of his way to avoid killing him because he was his son #also for as much as luke loved beru and owen lars for raising him well he never identified with them as mom and dad #and for as much as Owen and beru loved Luke they never raised him as their son. they raised him as their nephew. #i love the horrifying and beautifully tragic father/son relationship between Luke and Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader #even if they sadly did only get like a few days together to really know each other and most of that time they were enemies #Anakin may have been far more dangerous and terrifying to luke than aunt beru and uncle Owen but he still identified himself as Luke’s DAD #I like to imagine Anakin and obi wan spent a lot of time apologizing and talking to Luke and Leia to try to bond and tell them their story #I really think that Luke would feel a lot of conflicting emotions after hearing his dad’s story #on the one hand I think he would feel a lot of sympathy for his biological parents #and feel some resentment towards the way the old Jedi order forbid attachments and operated like an extremist military cult #it’s why I loved it when Luke dragged the old Jedi Order for being hypocritical and self-righteous dicks who helped create Darth Vader #even if unintentionally #but Luke is also a good person at heart too so I know he would be horrified to learn that his father committed mass murder and hurt his mom #even though I hate the sequels and don’t like to consider them canon I loved the scene where Luke dragged the old Jedi Order to Rey #I do think it would take him some time to process how terrible his predecessors from the Jedi Order had become and forgive his father though #do I think he would be able to forgive Anakin even after learning his whole story? absolutely because he has a forgiving heart #and he’d also learn that his father was also a lifelong victim with compromised agency who ultimately regretted doing those horrible things #but it would take him a bit of time and space #return of the jedi #luke skywalker #anakin skywalker #darth vader #ot star wars #pt star wars #empire strikes back

[sonfaro]

Problems I had with Star Wars: The Last Jedi...

So, first: Merry Christmas!   Second...  Saw Star Wars again... SPOILERS, obviously. After second viewing, I still like it, but it's now below the Force Awakens for me in terms of how much I liked it.  This is a complicated metric though, as I think it's a better written movie in some ways than Force Awakens.  It certainly takes more risks, and leaves us in a fresher state story wise than ever before in Star Wars.  However, I still have problems, and this time I wasn't as glossed over by the stuff I hadn't seen before to ignore them.  To be fair, Some of the problems I had with it (Super Leia for example) WERE better the second time, but some things got worse.  This will largely be a rant of the things I didn't like, just because I want to get the negativity out.

Most people are complaining about Canto Bight, and it's understandable - not much of consequence happens there.  However, I think a lot of the Rey/Luke island stuff drags on and doesn't really fit together well either.  Rey repeats some version of "Kylo Ren is evil and we need you to come back" three or four times to Luke.  One of them after Luke has agreed to train her already.  It seemed like a ham fisted means of getting her to talk about the Force as a power for Lukes lesson, but if so there are better ways than repeating information both the audience and Luke know already.  I think that section needed reworking.  The first lesson should have been the one in the cave - how the Jedi order were hypocrites and what not.  Then move from there.  Also, Luke should have commented on/helped improve her sabre technique so she's not just proficient after having used it only once.  Him watching her suddenly become a ninja and doing nothing just illustrated that Rey again didn't have to work at being super skilled at something and just sort of was.

While we're on the subject of Rey - in TFA and in TLJ (though much less in the latter thank you Rian) Rey is OP.  Flat out.  The explanation we're given in this movie is that as Kylo get's stronger in the force so does she... despite this notion being nowhere in canon prior (Sidious is the most powerful being on the dark side and Vader is second to him.  Neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda could hold a candle to either, and honestly neither could Luke (well, he could have dealt with Vader towards the end maybe, but definitely not Palpatine).  The force produces no light side equivalent in the 20 years the two run roughshod across the galaxy.  But it does now?

Snokes death is still a supreme waste.  And no it's not similar to Palpatine.  Palps got NO real hype until return of the Jedi, and his death wasn't treated as a joke.  Cut Luke milking the pokemon down and add in twenty seconds of Luke telling Rey in that cave "Snoke made that hole at the bottom of the island.  I fought him there.  I thought I killed him but he escaped and has haunted my family ever since".  <- takes ten-twenty seconds.  You can easily trim 10-20 seconds of this behemoth for enough so that I at least know where he came from.  I shouldn't HAVE to read an EU book to have a little character backstory on the evil counterpart to Luke in this series.  

Also, Rey and Kylo's story arc made less sense to me upon second viewing, because Kylo never seems to show her any conflict within himself before they force touch.  He barks a command at her the first time they link up.  The second he taunts her about the look she gave him in the forest and hints that Luke did something to him.  Third time was the creepy shirtless scene where we get his side of things.  Then Rey jumps into the dark side hole and suddenly she thinks Kylo is okay to have at a fireside chat - and that there's good in him... When he's displayed NO good to her the entire time?    What?  If their link allowed them to see memories - like Rey sees him decide not to shoot Leia - then it's justified, because that moment would have given her a sliver of doubt.  As it is, it just doesn't make sense, and makes Rey come off as an idiot (which, if you wanna make that her flaw - that she's a naive idiot sometimes, that's at least a step in the right direction.)

Also, one of my major problems that the second viewing crystalized for me is - ALL of the characters hold the idiot ball way too long.

Poe is probably the most egregious, but his idiocy I like, because it's a bit more character than the last time we saw him and it gave Oscar Isaac something to do.  I like that he'll be leading the charge next film.

Admiral Holdo though?  Oh, she came off much worse in the second viewing.  She tells no one... NO ONE about her plan?  I could agree with the think pieces I've read about fighting mansplaining and toxic masculinity if it were clear she'd told some people and was keeping Poe and his crew out of the loop as a lesson, but while I agree Poe was out of line - some sort of plan should be relayed to the rest of the crew while they're running for their lives.  She's literally told no one, and her excuse is some random quote that Leia says about "hope being pointless if you can see it (<a paraphrase, sure - but that's her reasoning)" which inadvertently hands Leia an idiot ball.  That's a flimsy as heck contrivance for unneeded tension that doesn't make logical sense, and is directly responsible for literally everything bad that happens to the resistance.

...I still love that character though.  Best death in Star Wars bar none.  Also, Laura Dern played her really well.  I WOULD be willing to read EU books about her and Leia complaining about politics and blasters and dudes and whatever they wanted to talk about while murdering Stormtroopers

On to my favorite new trilogy character, Finn, and his new buddy Rose.  It's still better than I expected from the trailers... but not by much.  I've read a few articles trying to pass his storyline off as character building, including one from Rian Johnson.  In no way do I believe them.  Finn's character is right where he was at the beginning of the movie, only now he's in an apparent love triangle (ugh.)  Some one wrote that the point of his story was to have him grow from someone who ran to someone proud to be in the rebellion... except a.) that was his story arc in The Force Awakens, and b.) he was 100% already working with the rebellion and happy to do it when the film began!  After his initial "where's Rey" he works with and asks questions of Leia about the Resistance's next step - He's all in when the movie begins.  Him running away isn't cowardice, he just literally puts his relationship with Rey over the resistance.  Which makes sense, because she's his first friend.  And also because HOLDO TOLD NO ONE HER PLAN SO FINN THOUGHT REY WOULD DIE!!!  Another option I read for his arc was that Finn learns the lesson not to run into danger... but that wasn't Finn's problem in the film, that was Poe.  Finn was super cautious, trying to escape the ship in secret to protect Rey, and not wanting to ride the horse-rabbit.  And then even after Roses' sacrifice he still thinks he needs to run in to help Luke, so that's not a lesson he learned.  That situation should have been reversed.  Rose should have wanted to make the sacrifice, but Finn should have stopped her.  Just kill the arbitrary "save the things we L.O.V.E.", because that still wouldn't be earned though.  -_-

That said, Rose remains adorable, and fares better on second viewing.  I'm pretty sure she caught on to Finn sneaking off before she let on, and if so, that's cool on her, she's super observant.  My only problem with her character wise was... why was she, a mechanic, flying with Poe and the remnants of Black squadron?  I can sort of see Finn, because he's a soldier, but her being in her own cockpit seemed contrived for her weird rescue attempt that didn't make sense.  (Those things were old, and safety couldn't be great on them, running into Finn COULD HAVE KILLED HIM.  There's her idiot ball).  Apparently there's a bunch of shippy scenes between the two that build up her crush on Finn that were left on the cutting room floor.  But so much was cut that it just feels unearned.

I'm still eternally grateful that Finn finally got a win of some sort after getting kicked around all of TFA.  The fight with Phasma was 100% more awesome on the second viewing because I saw so much more going on.  I now really need a Star Wars fighting game, no lie.  (Also, lets be honest.  Phasma isn't dead.  They showed blaster fire ricocheting off her armor for a reason.  She'll come back and if we see her face there'll be a massive scare over her eye... Or... OH WOW, I LITERALLY JUST THOUGHT ABOUT THIS AS I TYPED IT!!!  EYE-PATCH GWENDOLINE CHRISTIE!  Someone who fanarts DO THAT PLEASE!

BB-8 played deus ex machine one too many times in this movie.

I paid more attention to Hux this go around, and I actually liked him much more as the sniveling weasel who thinks he's more powerful than he actually is.  Domnell Gleeson is so good in that smarmy role.  I can't wait for the inevitable Kylo/Hux infighting.

Why is Chewie getting orders barked at him from Rey?  Shouldn't it be the other way around?  Or could she ask?  It's the difference between "Chewie, swing us around!" and "Chewie, CAN YOU swing us around?"  Minor point but bugged me.

Kylo Ren is my favorite Star Wars villain of all time.  Adam Driver is awesome.  He's essentially a school shooter who has been rewarded with power and nothing can be more despicable.  I really don't want him redeemed.  "Star Wars is all about redemption!"  you might cry.  Yeah, if one wants it.  But kids need to be shown what happens if you reject it too.  Food for thought.

You couldn't have given Benecio Del Torro a name IN the movie?  Finn and Rose wouldn't have asked him?  Huh?

Also, that war profiteering storyline seems flawed to me.  Of course a weapons dealer will eventually sell X-Wings.  If the rebellion beats back the empire in your sector, what are you gonna do?  Sell them cheap but unsafe TIE's?  The logic of that scene didn't work for me, and the storyline seemed discarded as soon as Benecio Del Torro left, unresolved.

There is no reason Lando Calrissian couldn't be in Canto Bight.  Heck, he should have been the dude with the pendant, and he missed Leia's call because he was gambling and not paying attention.  Rose and Finn could have missed him before they saw him... or just not known who he was because they were young when the first rebellion was a thing.

This is the best acting from Mark Hamill in a star wars movie ever.  It's a shame they veered so far away from his original characterization.  I disagree with him on the notion that Jedi don't give up.  But that's because I think that trait is Luke's.  LUKE doesn't give up, even when he should.  So derpy depressed Skywalker doesn't really gel with the rest of the Saga to me.

Carrie Fisher was a gem and will be missed.  She was perfect.

 A lot of my friend who have issues with it say that they think it's a good movie, just not a Star Wars movie, or something along those veins.  I will say now, that having watched it a second time, I don't quite agree, though I see where they’re coming from.  This one felt more like a prequel Star Wars though.  Not in terms of quality though, as I'd say it was much better than the prequels.  Certainly Attack of the Clones anyway, which is still my least favorite live action movie (the Clone Wars Movie is worse).  I don't think it's a great SAGA movie, because Rian seemed determined to throw away most of the promises and intrigues from TFA and ignore basic lore stuff to make this one. It felt like he hated much of the Force Awakens and wanted a mini do-over, which I would argue was a dumb idea. But despite that, it's definitely a Star Wars movie.  Just not a great one for the saga.

Here's the big issue though - the REASON it's not a great Saga movie, is because this story team Disney's cooked up haven't been much of a story team.  When they got the property and decided to do a trilogy, they should have written out a skeleton for the three movies, just so everyone who writes and directs has an idea of where they're going.  Rian had free reign on this one, and it almost felt like he was making both the first and second movie of his own personal trilogy.  I am looking forward to his actual trilogy, because his ideas were interesting to me and I feel like he does love the franchise.  But it did a disservice to this film.

And finally, just because it irritates him so - Reylo is a terrible garbage ship.  I hate shipping in general - but not since SasuSaku have I truly loathed the idea of two characters hooking up.  Shoot, Reylo is worse.  In no way should it happen.  Honestly, it shouldn't even be promoted, and should be looked on the way Sansa and Joffery's relationship as looked at.  The fact that SO MANY media outlets are romanticizing the damaged white boy (and sorry to make it racial, but it really does feel like there's some of that in there) and thinking it would be totally hot for the first truly prominent female protagonist in Star Wars history to boink him makes me fear for society.  Literally any other ship is preferable to this...

Star Wars is my favorite franchise of all time and holds a special place in my heart, and this movie does bring that love back.  But the people who are confused as to why it’s not as liked as ESB should take a more critical eye to it.  It’s great, but not that great.

...And again merry Christmas!

#Star Wars #Plot holes #Bad characterization #Sillyshippers #complaints