#f&b critical

[atopvisenyashill]

Thoughts on the Alysanne is Maegor's daughter AU? I feel like it has some interesting potential, and it vastly recontextualizes different parts of Jaehaehae (I do not like him sjsjsjs) and Alysanne's relationship (such as Jaehaehae's treatment of their daughters) but I wanna hear what you think about it!

I’ve touched on this a bit before but since you actually want to hear my thoughts, allow me to present to you my Jaehaerys Is The Goddamn Worst, And Alysanne Annoys Me Too: An Essay lmao but my answer is basically “yeah all of what you just said.”

I think it makes Alysanne much more palatable (to me) as a character because as she stands, she just fixates on forcing her daughters through these fucked up marriages at too young an age bc it traumatized her to be married and pregnant at 15 too but she’d never admit that being a willing participant in her own kidnapping by her brother-husband was the single worst thing that ever happened to her, and because Alysanne doesn’t want to admit it (and Jaehaerys would never see it as wrong or a mistake) F&B really shies away from delving into the fact that Alysanne is as deranged of a mother as Cersei is. So as she stands, she’s very flat to me because she’s presented very flatly and inconsistently. She’s so in love with Jaehaerys, she’s maritally raped by Jaehaerys, she’s a loving and doting mother, she forces her daughters into marriages when they’re the same too young age she was, she accuses her teenage girls of being scheming whores then gets angry when her husband accuses their teenage girls of being scheming whores, and worst of all we are just told “Maegelle tells them to make up so they do” so we don’t know why Alysanne gets over all of this. What is the point of riding a dragon when you never use that dragon to protect your daughters from unwanted teen marriages? We’re just not given a good enough justification for why her behavior is so weird and frustrating towards her daughters.

Make her Maegor’s daughter though…most of her behavior as an adult makes more sense. Like a worse version of Rhaenyra’s childhood almost - a father desperate for a son, but lowkey obsessed with his daughter, who makes all his hang ups about his parents the problems of every woman around him, except Maegor is out here blood sacrificing and torturing and starting wars and forcing babies on wives he discards quickly and brutally. Then here comes Jaehaerys on a white horse green dragon to save her from the horror her life has become, and he loves her so much he runs away with her even though Alyssa says they shouldn’t marry because people won’t like it. And they have beautiful children, and a beautiful marriage, and build a beautiful kingdom.

Then her pregnancies start getting dangerous. Gaemon, then Valerion, die. Alysanne thinks of the shriveled up mutants she called brothers, if Maegor’s taint has passed to her. Her perfect husband ignores her no, and forces Gael on her. Alysanne remembers that he said nothing to Rogar when Alyssa died, merely wept. Then her daughters start to die. Daella, Alyssa, Viserra, all within a few years. Then Jaehaerys makes Saera watch as he murders her boyfriend, calls her a whore, and says Alysanne cannot follow Saera to Lys. Alysanne thinks of Maegor torturing the Harroways over Alys’ presumed infidelity. Jaehaerys says he’s sorry, and her daughter badgers her into forgiving him, and she remembers how she helped Jaehaerys badger Alyssa into forgiving Rogar. Not two years later, Jaehaerys passes over Rhaenys. Alysanne thinks of how she was never enough for her father, how she felt so superior to Rhaena banished to Dragonstone and resented by Aerea, yet there she is dragging Gael away from court because she can’t stand to be with Jaehaerys. How her father was surrounded by dead women and dead babies and how Jaehaerys is surrounded by his own dead daughters, but surely she did the right thing, surely Maegor was worse, surely the realm is better off? Is he right to pass over Rhaenys? Is she enabling a man just as monstrous as her father? She will never decide, because Maegelle will guilt her about keeping Gael isolated at Dragonstone, and Alysanne will do as she’s told, just like Rhaena, and Alyssa, and Jeyne, Elinor, Ceryse, Alys, and Tyanna, just like every one of her daughters.

I do get why Alysanne is Alyssa & Aenys’ and not Maegor’s. The weird Targ babies, the line not descending from Visenya, Jaehaerys and Alysanne being held up as the perfect Targaryen couple specifically because they are brother and sister and dragon riders. I do even think canon Alysanne is likely traumatized by her time as a hostage on Dragonstone, and the ensuing war, and the trauma bond that caused with Jaehaerys, and it makes her idolize Jaehaerys, and then he isolates her at Dragonstone so he can swiftly and safely marry, groom, and knock her up. It’s not like,,,, a fun time, and it’s enough to make anyone crazy and weird about their daughters, but I think having her father be Maegor makes Alysanne herself much deeper because it gives her, as the most beloved Targaryen queen, a blood tie to the most hated Targaryen king, and a marriage to the most beloved Targaryen king. It fits better with a lot of the themes of the main series (again, imo) - forcing the spotlight on the outsiders to see how the affect the story from behind the scenes. The fall of Aegon’s sons, and The Long Reign, not told from the PoV or to serve the PoV of any of the kings or princes, but of the queen that tied them all together.

#anti jaehaerys i targaryen #f&b critical #fire and blood critical #asks #thesadboy #like he kind of does this with aenys & maegor by focusing on alyssa and rhaena and the wives and visenya. #but the Moment jaehaerys enters the scene he completely dominates it. the same way daemon and aemond do actually. #but this is not. it should not!! be their story. that’s not how the main series is told anyway!! #if f&b isn’t told by a dornish maester than it should have been written by a septa!!! #nuns wrote books!!!!! #rich noblewomen wrote novels and poetry!!!!!!! #GEORGE DO YOU READ WOMEN. I AM NO LONGER ASKING POLITELY. #i went to look for her mother and apparently this was just a mistake elio made and i’m even more depressed. i can’t believe i’m saying this #but elio damn your mind. #i bet he saw that and went ‘wait which one is her fucjing mother’ and george was like what in the goddamn hell are you talking about. #idk who would be her mother in this au. if we want to keep her within 3 ish years of jaehaerys it Has to be alys or ceryse. ceryse hightowe #is the hilarious and obvious choice. but don’t count out alys harroway second wife here either. #then there’s rhaena as her mother which with the canon timeline makes him 12 years older and isn’t THAT horrible let’s stop here actually.

[thesilverlady]

I think GRRM used Rhaenyra's pregnancy with Visenya as an excuse to remove Rhaenyra from (the narrative) her own story.

I agree. George had done numerous things to devoid rhaenyra of any agency and active role during the war and even some events (like all the velaryon boys dying is obviously because their time of being on the pages have come to an end.)

I love him as a writer but there's a lot to criticize with the way he constantly chose to approach writing women and the obstacles/sufferings they face

#ask reply #westeros is a patriarchal society. there's no arguing but a pattern is a pattern #and it's obvious when the time comes to wrap things up asap to move things forward #with rhaenyra out of the game. it meant also 1 less dragon to worry about 💀 #and then he conveniently offed syrax in such a clumsy manner because had she been there Sunfyre&Aegon would have never survived dragonstone #I love f&b but there are plenty of loose ends #f&b critical #rhaenyra targeryan #<- this take is about book rhaenyra btw I'm just using the character tag because an anon asked me to add it

[bohemian-nights]

People really are missing the point of a character like Nettles. Being the a non-Valyrian dragonrider is what makes her different(in every positive definition of that word) and helps to serve a larger purpose in this story.

Valyrian blood is not special. It’s not needed to do great things. No one is special because of what family they happen to be born into.

A non-Valyrian Nettles shows that we are more than the circumstances which we are born into. Our birth, our names, and our very blood does not define us. Our actions are what do. We can overcome so much and rise to become absolutely extraordinary with a little bit of determination, patience, and a dash of help along the way. Nettles exemplifies that to the fullest extent.

She's more than a Black Valryian. She doesn’t have to be Valyrian. She shouldn’t have to be Valyrian.

She’s a survivor. She’s a final girl. She’s a Black low-born girl likely without a drop of dragons blood that tames a wild dragon with patience that killed countless others who had dragons blood. She survived the Dance where others high and low alike fell and perished to become a firewitch to the Burned Men.

Her legacy is immortalized in the history books(and by the Burned Men cause they still worship her) as one of the last(if not the last) dragonrider(s) before Dany all without having any known Valyrian ancestry.

#nettles doesn’t need Valyrian blood to be great #nettles #hotd #hotd spoilers #nettles asoiaf #nettles f&b #hotd fandom critical #bncommentary #hotd commentary #nettles characterization #🐑🐉 #house of the dragon #netty #she’s not daemons kid guys #the dates don’t align for that but keep trying it #surprise surprise most of the ones cheering this crap on aren’t black themselves 🤦🏽‍♀️ #I see what’s happening here which is ironic because any other time she isn’t Black #but now she is because you can use that #how does having valyrian blood benefit nettles at all #how does it add to the story GRRM is trying to tell #she can be valyrian but it shouldn’t be requirement #that thinking is backwards #what did tyrion say? never forget who you are wear it proudly #nettles likely isn’t valyrian let’s be proud of her claiming a dragon without dragons blood #nettles is great because she’s nettles #no dragon blood required and I love that 🙌🏽

[daenerysies]

“i, criston cole, a grown man in my early twenties (when the show starts), met the princess when she was 14 (in hotd) and 8 (in f&b), groomed her, and then had sex with her while she was intoxicated (and still a teenager) but my stans seem to believe that i, A GROWN MAN, was the one taken advantage of and raped.”

even though she was a child in f&b and these were unsubstantiated rumors. even though he’s been an adult since the show started and she was still a kid. even though he’s been her closest confidant for years and watched her grow up. even though the writers and producers and show runners and actors ALL AGREE that it was meant to be consensual in the show. CRISTON is the one who was taken advantage of? CRISTON is the one who was raped? either get real or get slapped because i have no time for that type of bullshit.

#f&b #hotd #hotd critical #rhaenyra targaryen #pro rhaenyra #anti criston cole #anti team green #anti team green stans #you’re all a bunch of freaks #rhaenyra was victimized by every adult figure in her life #and the show has pulled out all the stops to remove those aspects of her character #and gift it on a silver platter #to characters who don’t deserve it (i.e. alicent and criston) #now their stans can gobble up every bit of victimhood that belonged YET AGAIN to a targ woman #and cry about how all targs are bad and evil #and these characters are the honest and righteous ones #who ‘deserve better’ #give me a fucking break #crispy coleslaw needs to be gelded #yes i saw this take again and it’s making my blood boil #obligatory anti sunfyre pfp’s and usernames bc it’s always you #at the scene of the crime

[pawthorn]

So I hope people recognize the work Erika is doing with Dusk, because it’s soooo frickin good.

Beyond the amazing change in demeanor we saw during their dream, they’ve also been pushing the party’s buttons in all the right ways. And this party? This party needs that. They came together to work for Eshteross, they need something to keep them together once that job is over.

And Dusk is already doing that! Without doing anything outright villainous. Just by crossing boundaries. Asking out the two people least ready for romance back to back. Pushing a little too hard for FCG to fly. Letting their annoyance slip through when the Hells pushed back on their plans. And their plans are good! They’re too good, too focused on success without consideration of the feelings and safety of individuals.

I don’t know if the cast yet knows that Dusk has ulterior moments, but Erika is doing a fantastic job of laying enough groundwork to raise the party’s suspicions, to unite them in a way other villainous characters have yet to do. Orym, Ashton, and Imogen stand together to say, no, FCG shouldn’t fly. Chetney and Ashton both refuse to choose seconds— to dictate which of their friends will risk their lives.

The entire time Erika is at that table, she’s watching and listening and looking for opportunities to exploit. The questions they swoop in to ask, the way they poke and imply things about the party… it’s a thing of beauty. She and Darin De Paul really leaned into the unique opportunities of playing a guest character. So much about Dusk and Sprigg is specifically crafted to provoke the party, one way or another.

The Bassuras arc has been my favorite so far, I can’t wait to see the race, infiltrating the Seat of Distain, and the arrival of Fearne’s parents. I really hope Dusk doesn’t die, they’d be a great recurring character if Erika can make the time. Anyway, I love this character and all the work Erika is doing with them, it’s a pleasure to watch.

#critical role #cr spoilers #dusk cr #erika ishii #campaign 3 #bell’s hells #oh and if you think everything dusk is doing is just what erika wants to do f*ck you #people in this fandom will really see a non-white woman making strong character choices #and say wow what a b*tch i can’t believe they’d act like that #go watch other erika ishii characters if you’re not smart enough to figure out what acting looks like on your own

[eliaism]

anti targs love acting like Targaryen women, specially Rhaenyra and Daenerys, haven’t experienced trauma. the “alicent’s big doe eyes” thing and dany antis who pit Sansa against her (but like Cersei ironically) and treat her pain like it is non-existent. I get that show!Alicent is (sadly) different than book!Alicent, but show!Alicent would not get nearly as much sympathy if she were like her book counterpart.

LOOK AT THIS GIRL. Does she look like she’s been having a great time?

Targaryens, especially Targaryen women don’t need to be “villains” and non-targ women don’t need to be the epitome of innocence and above criticism like how the show runners and TG treat Alicent or an “enemy” of the Targaryens like some people want Sansa (as well as Arya) to be.

Rhaenyra was a child too. She was the same age as Alicent at the start of the show and in the book I think she was around 7 while Alicent was either an older teen or an adult at the beginning. Dany was 13 at the beginning of AGOT and in the show I believe 16. They started as scared young girls going through trauma too, just because members of their family, mostly men, were shitty DOESN’T make them evil or unsympathetic. Dany’s story is literally about her MAKING CHANGE and being different from her ancestors.

Sansa hate not welcome just to be safe.

#rhaenyra targaryen #daenerys targaryen #house targaryen #a song of ice and fire #asoiaf #fire and blood #f&b #game of thrones #got #house of the dragon #hotd #game of thrones critical #got critical #house of the dragon critical #hotd critical #pro rhaenyra targaryen #pro daenerys targaryen #pro sansa stark #because again this ain’t a Sansa hate zone #team black #anti alicent hightower #anti team green #anti green stans

[alicentsgf]

i hold no hatred in my heart for lucerys velaryon but if i see one more person use that poor kids death to justify blood and cheese i am throwing a luke is dead party à la aegon ii and you're all invited

#hotd #hotd fandom critical #f&b spoilers #b&c

[rhaenin-time]

#hotd #asoiaf #hotd critical #team black #fire and blood #anti team green #asoiaf fandom #these people love to cite daenerys this one time #as if “a dragon is not a slave” doesn't just mean you can't FORCE a bond #not that it's a fucking free-for-all game of finders keepers #targs derive their power from their monopoly over dragons because they have the power to enforce that monopoly #that's how ownership works #Rhaenyra was not just the heir to the throne she was also the future head of the family + highest ranking dragonrider #If she didn't want Aemond to have Vhagar and if she would have had Viserys say NO had Aemond asked then yes he did indeed “STEAL” Vhagar #again because he knew he would be told NO #a non-misogynistic jaehaerys would have sent his ass to the wall #the whole point of that scene in F&B was the important matter (vhagar) was pushed aside because viserys didn't want to deal with 'drama' #and because of aemond's eye rhaenyra was not in a position to push #So yes actually it was a pretty good trade for aemond

[lupuslikethewolf]

something something daemon was sixteen when alyssane made him marry something something he was uprooted from his home and forced to live in an entirely new kingdom with someone he hated and who hated him back something something every time he did something that viserys didn't like he was kicked out of the only home he had and sent away something something daemon fought for viserys but viserys never fought for daemon something something daemon has targaryen daughter syndrome

#if daemon haters could please refrain from blaming teenage boy (at the time) for acting out against his controlling family #no this is not abuse or misogyny apologism its called sympathy and empathy for a character's shitty childhood/adolescence #its called giving daemon's character and decisions context that the show conveniently refuses to address #can i complain about the choice of casting an actress who looks younger than matt smith when rhea was more likely the same age/older? #there's a reason daemon is grrm's fave and that reason is bc he is the visenya-coded daughter and also the ever loyal brother #fire and blood #f&b #pro daemon targaryen #pro daemon #daemon targaryen #the rogue prince #prince daemon targaryen #hotd #hotd critical

[nogoodsheepstealing-greatgrandma]

Team Green: Sorry your faves are boring 😊🤷‍♂️ Sure you're supposed to root for the Blacks but the Greens are just more fun. Jace is boring I'm here for my angsty disaster mess 💚

You realise that's bad writing, right? This is a family civil war drama. One side of that family civil war shouldn't be populated with blank slates. If no effort is made into making Rhaenyra and Daemon's children as fleshed out as Alicent's children then that is bad writing.

Some people find the Lannisters more fun than the Starks, but the Starks are still fleshed out characters (and considering in the books Jace is 14/15, Luke is 13, Joffrey, Baela & Rhaena are 12, Aegon the younger is 9 and Viserys is 7 - these kids ages almost map straight onto the Starklings so they were so meant to be our Targlings). It didn't have to be a zero sum "you can only have ONE side that's interesting". The show is poorer for it. Game of Thrones was a disaster in many ways, but at least the different sides of the conflict had equal screen time and attention.

How hard would it have been to flesh out Jace, or at least give him a half-decent haircut? He could have been a mirror to Jon Snow (they technically have the same initials). One is a bastard who does not know he's a targaryen prince, the other is a targaryen prince who discovers he is a bastard. In a world that hates bastards, that insists they are 'wanton and treacherous by nature', there was plenty of potential to explore some complicated emotions, to give weight to how he feels about being a bastard. The whispers that would have followed him, the scrutiny he would have felt, the internalised guilt and shame, his protectiveness over his little brothers and wish to spare them the truth. Maybe after Alicent confronted Aegon over the pig there could have been a shift where Aegon turns his bullying away from Aemond and towards Jace (more in keeping with book canon). Maybe Jace could feel anxious about lessons with Criston Cole due to his open hatred of him. Maybe he could be equal parts devoted to and resentful of his mother over his parentage, maybe he could be driven to perfectionism to prove himself worthy.

The show made Jace more violent in the fight with Aemond than in the book, by changing who started the fight (from Aemond to Rhaena and co.), by narrowing the age gap to make Jace more of a match for Aemond, and by having him draw a knife instead of a wooden toy sword. But they didn't earn that moment. How much more satisfying would it have been if both Aemond and Jace were given equal emotional weight in the build-up to the fight? If the hurt and anxiety at discovering he was a bastard had been building and building until it burst out. The entire reason the show changed the age dynamic between Rhaenyra and Alicent to make them peers and best friends was supposedly to make their conflict more dramatic - why would you then drop that approach with their kids? How does it make the civil war story better if one half of the next generation of characters aren't really characters?

They didn't even have to put much effort into Baela, as GRRM already had her brimming with personality on the page, but they just... ignored that and made her a non-entity. Oh she gets one punch in, and there's a blink and you'll miss it background shot of her trying to hit Aegon (at this point I don't think the actors were even directed to do that I think they just took it upon themselves). Meanwhile Baela in the books is wild and fearless and deliberately provocative and quick to anger and fiercely defensive of her loved ones and wrestles squires in the training yard and has a pet monkey and sneaks out in search of adventure and brings home 'unsuitable' friends. Including a legless beggar, a blacksmith's apprentice whose muscles she admired, a street conjurer, twin prostitutes and an entire troupe of mummers. And she alarms everyone due to being 'overly fond of boys' and gets epic lines like this when it is suggested she marry Lord Rowan:

“I’ve bedded two of his sons. The eldest and thirdborn, I think it was. Not both at once, that would have been improper.”

She could have been an absolutely chaotic presence onscreen. Rhaena meanwhile is a little more like Sansa to Baela's Arya, but would have needed more work to flesh her out onscreen. Her insecurities and wish for a dragon seemed promising at first, but they were dropped as soon as Aemond lost his eye. Because that was ultimately the narrative purpose she served - to provide a new reason for the fight to start that wasn't Aemond hitting and pushing a toddler into a pile of dragon poo. She helps Aemond's image by being the one to start the fight instead of him, and from then on she becomes a voiceless non-entity. We watch Aemond fly away victoriously on Vhagar, we don't see Rhaena tearfully watching the last link to her mother vanish over the horizon.

Considering the prominent role of bastards during the dance (especially the dragonseeds), the uninterest in exploring bastardy in Jace makes little sense. Considering the centrality of gender to the story (and considering a certain event involving key players during the dance), the lack of effort into Baela and Rhaena makes zero sense (the show doesn't even bring up their right to Driftmark in an episode dedicated to discussing the rightful heir to Driftmark).

Considering especially that in fantasy black women are so often consigned to minor Missandei roles, the fact that we were robbed of Baela and Rhaena as main characters particularly stings. Baela in particular was an easy fan favourite in the book, and its a role that black women and girls so rarely get to play. If you had told me before the show that Helaena would be a fan favourite over Baela, I wouldn't have believed it. And don't get me wrong, I like that they fleshed out Helaena in the show, like Rhaena she didn't have much of a presence in the book. But it is so typical that the relative non-entity that they kept white gets to be fleshed out, while the more fleshed out character that they made black becomes a non-entity. And Helaena is skinny now, of course (all love to Phia Saban, but I am mourning plump Helaena).

And don't get me started on Kylo Raemond.

#hotd critical #house of the dragon #team black #team green #pro team black #jacaerys velaryon #baela targaryen #rhaena targaryen #aemond targaryen #helaena targaryen #kylo ren #jace #jon snow #valyrianscrolls #f&b

[oh-hush-its-perfect]

INVALID reasons to dislike Taylor Swift as a person:

You don't like her music

You think her fans are obnoxious/annoying

You believe she is not being genuine about liking/appreciating her fanbase or the awards she has received

You didn't fact-check that "study" that claimed she emitted 8,000 tons of carbon via her private jet (I read the article by Yard— not only do they not source their methodology, but other climate experts have come up with completely different estimates, averaging around 1,000 tons)

You believe Taylor Swift (the person) is guilty of queerbaiting

You don't think non-Black people have any place at all in hip-hop

She has friends who are mostly also rich white people

She has had a lot of boyfriends in the past and seems to have moved on from her partner of six years very quickly

She sometimes plays the victim

You think heartbreak is all she writes about

VALID reasons to dislike Taylor Swift as a person:

You believe Taylor Swift (the brand) is guilty of queerbaiting and that Taylor Swift (the person) is content with this business strategy

1,000 tons of carbon is still A LOT to emit and Swift should be more responsible with her footprint, ESPECIALLY now that she's touring

The music video for "Shake it Off" features what many people consider racially insensitive material, disputably using traditionally Black and Latine styles of dance as the butt of the joke and Black and Latine women as props

Swift was politically quiet for years, allowing white supremacists and nationalists to claim her as one of their own and declare her their "Aryan goddess" (though this could be blamed on her marketing team, considering they did not allow her to be politically active until 2018— and she did denounce racists in interviews prior to making her Democratic opinions public)

She is currently dating white singer/songwriter Matt Healy, who has been accused of a) saying the n-word, b) doing a Nazi salute on stage "ironically—" and there is video evidence of this, though it's difficult to tell if it's actually a Nazi salute or just a regular gesture to which he didn't give much thought, c) making fun of fat people, and d) making fun of black women. And probably more of which I'm not aware.

The music video for "You Need to Calm Down" portrays a very naive view of bigotry as angry people holding signs (and a somewhat classist view of bigotry as well, considering the appearance of the "homophobes") and uses queer people as props

She's a rich white liberal and is guilty of many of the sins typical of most rich white liberals

She has played the victim as a white woman and vilified black men (specifically Kanye West) in the process

You believe her releasing new songs like "Mr. Perfectly Fine" and the 10 minute version of "All Too Well" has encouraged harassment of men she dated over a decade ago and there was no need to rehash this hurt.

You believe that the academies (i.e. the Grammys, the VMAs, etc.) are biased towards her as a white woman and she has not done enough to combat or even acknowledge this racism

She has engaged in LGBTQ+ erasure by having one of her brand's official accounts call straight couples "lavender," even though that is a queer phrase, following the announcement of her song "Lavender Haze" and by using the queer dog whistle "hairpin drop" in a song even though she is assumed to be straight, reducing the saying's meaning.

You just don't like her vibes (NOTE: this is a valid reason to dislike her in your personal life, but NOT to diss her)

More can be added to both lists. Please note that many people acknowledge all of the flaws above listed and like her anyway because, as it is important to understand, she is human and will often make mistakes. Doing any one of these things do not make her a "bad person," and dividing people into "good" and "bad" categories— especially people who you don't know— is very binary and unnuanced; however, they do make her a flawed person, and people, Swifties and non-Swifties, have a right to make of that what they will.

#i could write a dissertation on this #taylor swift critical #anti matt healy #swiftie #swifties #taylornation #celebrity culture #tw racism #tw white supremacy #tw white nationalism #tw nazis #tw nazi #anti taylor swift #FOR THE RECORD I'M A SWIFTIE #I'M JUST A SWIFTIE WITH. LIKE. CRITICAL THINKING SKILLS #but outright hate will not be tolerated #any 'f*ck that b*tch' type comments will be deleted and tags will result in an instant block #this is a NEUTRAL post #manifesting that this post only garters productive conversation and polite discourse and NOT people on either side cussing me out

[atopvisenyashill]

That whole era of the Second Quarrel onwards is so obscure when it comes to the succession and the tensions surrounding it. No reactions. No massive events or much about dynamics. I want to know about Viserys's coronation. I want to know what he felt about his own succession before the GC. And before that, I want to know if Baelon ever tried to mend fences. If Jaehaerys ever mentioned it again, and how. How Rhaenys made her life, now all but an exile, on Driftmark. What motivated Aemma and Viserys's marriage. WHEN DID JOCELYN DIE?!

LITERALLY OMG. Number one frustrating thing about F&B is we get pages and pages of stuff no one in the world gives a shit about - Maiden's Day, that stupid story about Jaehaerys fucking the writer - and nothing on the subjects that actually got most people into the damn series like the POLITICS or the MAGIC. all of THAT is completly glossed over or Gyldane (and Yandel for that matter) just go "Well Barth did say this thing but that's nonsense" and then no elaboration. drives me up a WALL because yeah sure maybe the long, pages upon pages of battles and fighting are not my cup of tea but a) they're perfectly well written and b) THEY MAKE UP FOR IT BY GIVING ME SEVERAL CHAPTERS IN A ROW OF CERSEI AND SANSA JUST CHILLING AND POLITICKING IN DETAIL. He makes up for that in F&B by giving me MORE Jaehaerys as if that's what I want!!!

There's a few eras in F&B I think are likely to come up in the main series or in dunk and egg which is why I think F&B is so frustratingly vague (and if they were kept vague for no reason….george what. george WHY). And I do get he wanted to give us more of what he was writing without spoiling later books but good lord i would actually rather wait longer for material that isn't 60% george going "well i can't tell them ALL of that, let's just wink at the audience." The Second Quarrel is one of those times that might be relevant later imo largely because there's just. NOTHING. NO INFO. NO EVENTS. Like you said, there are NO major events in this time period. the ONLY thing happening is politics and court intrigue but F&B isn’t interested in court intrigue unless it involves grooming a 12 year old girl and unfortunately there is only poor Aemma being groomed at this time so F&B says “too many old people they’re not sexy” and just gives us sparse details about marriage dates, birth dates, and death dates. We don’t even see how rhaenys and viserys feel about THEE QUEEN ALYSANNE dying!!!!!!!! She just. Passes. oh so sad. george i’m in your walls!

Unlike every other Targaryen child (Aemma, Viserys, Daemon, herself, even Aerea and Rhaelle to an extent) who is allowed to grow up at court surrounded by other Valyrians and members of the royal family, Rhaenys kids are denied this. With this move, as you say, Jaehaerys all but tells Rhaenys "get you and your fuckin kids the hell out of my city." Can you imagine being Rhaenys, newly pregnant, having been told for years by your father and grandmother that you will be Queen one day just to be suddenly and unceremoniously exiled from court and kicked completely out of the line of succession? Can't even begin to get into how deranged it is to do this to your pregnant granddaughter when she's mourning the loss of her father

WHEN DOES JOCELYN BARATHEON DIE. HOW DOES SHE FEEL ABOUT HER DAUGHTER AND GRANDKIDS BEING PASSED OVER?????? She is only a year or two older than Aemon, she could easily have still been alive and making a fuss during Viserys' reign especially after he names Rhaenyra his heir SO HOW DID SHE FEEL ABOUT ALL OF THIS.

Baelon and Viserys' coronations/weddings/big We Are The Royal Line Now Shenangians during this era are crazyyy right, because THE QUEEN OF WESTEROS is refusing to talk to the iron throne, can’t ride her dragon anymore, is losing her hearing and memory, and goes everywhere with Gael to the point that no one even attempts to marry Gael bc they know Alysanne will never let her go. THATS INSANE. They are LIVING SEPARATELY like practically pseudo divorced the way Doran and Mellario are, so is Alysanne just purposefully snubbing these celebrations and using “i’m old” as an excuse or is she passive aggressively riding a carriage all the way back to KL just to show up wearing velaryon colors to viserys’ wedding and then left again without saying goodbye before the banquet even started???

AMD BAELON. part of why i’m so turned off by him is bc we have no indication he felt even a little had but to be fair it has been pointed out to me that we ALSO have no indication he didn’t feel bad; we have no indication of his feelings whatsoever!!! for all we know HE could have felt this was unfair & had been in the middle of either brokering a marriage between his grandkids and her kids, or figured “hey we had this exact same issue with Auntie Rhaena, maybe I should build House Targaryen a second and third seat or even given Dragonstone to The First Born Girl as tradition from now on” like he really could have been trying OR he could have been cackling and rubbing his hands together and encouraging viserys to bed 13 year old aemma soon and often to ensure their line, and calling rhaenys a stupid bitch at court, like we just don’t know!!!!!

We get several “they never agreed on the succession” comments but how does that translate to ACTION. stop telling me dates and tell me WHAT HAPPENED.

#main problem is honestly not enough action. i get why. but maybe. this wasn’t the format for this story hmmm!! #anti f&b #f&b critical #fire and blood critical #asks #anons

[thesilverlady]

i think what has been said about rhaenyra can be said about aegon as well grrm had him injured real bad from the start so he (and rhaenyra) could be removed from the narrative to make room for Aemond and Daemon (his fave) sure sunfyre wasn't the strongest he was a young dragon with no skills but it's kinda weird that he get badly injured when he was aided with vhaegar . so even Rhaenrya&Aegon dragons get sidelined just to make room for Vhaega and Caraxes as well. i think the dance would have been much better if grrm truly focused on Rhaenrya&Aegon rather than focusing on secondary characters and ignoring the main characters and the reason why this war has started to begin with

oh I completely agree. Daemon was George's fav, Aemond was the wildcard with vhagar so conveniently the figureheads of the war (aka rhaenyra & aegon) become absent from the narrative for reasons (grief, disability, paranoia etc) while the favored two is left to finish the job.

don't get me wrong. I'm not asking for rhaenyra to have ridden Syrax into the battle - quite frankly I think risking your king/queen into joining the fight is quite stupid - but it was mentioned she was groomed to be the heir and learnt the duties. So, why is jacaerys the mvp brain of the early plotting? As previous anon mentioned rhaenyra's miscarriage worked to basically be a good enough reason to hold her back

As with Aegon, same applies to him. He gets burnt, becomes disabled, has to lay low and eventually flee to Dragonstone where surprise his sister-enemy comes herself so he doesn't even have to move to kill her. And once he has grasped victory he dies. the end

Obviously, I know the greens are clearly the antagonists in the writing but dunno, sometimes the dance feels so incredible rush. And I get it, that's the f&b book style for ya. Still, I'll always wish we had gotten a novel similarly written to asoiaf style with perhaps some blending of f&b (like having a biased maester lay doubt by being given POVs etc)

#ask reply #f&b critical #and BTW I adore daemon and I appreciate Aemond's unhinged ass. ok? don't mistake this as a hate. #I just will always love rhaenyra more and would wish for more content of her 🤷🏻‍♀️

[daenerysies]

someone sent me an anon ask about the anti rhaenyra agenda most rhaenicent shippers have and like a dumbass i accidently deleted it so i'm just going to try my best to re-answer it here (yes i wrote a whole spiel about it and now it's gone forever and i'm upset.)

from what i can tell there are only two reasons as to why people can't stand rhaenyra but love rhaenicent; and it's because they either have some heavy internalized misogyny OR that's the only way to continue and keep their uwu sad lesbian alicent headcanons semi-tethered in reality. alicent is a character that has next to no positive interactions with other characters, least of all any women. she has a 'good' (and i say that lightly) relationship with rhaenyra for 2 episodes in hotd, and then they are adversaries for the rest of the show. the only other women we see her interact with are helaena and her lady in waiting talya ( who regularly spied on her for mysaria) and minus talya, those are the same female relationships she has in f&b. she doesn't really have a good track record with anyone.

in the book she terrorized rhaenyra from aegon's birth up until rhaenyra's death. rather than teaching her son to rule and raising him to be an upstanding prince of the realm she instead spent her time calling rhaenyra, a literal child, a slut, she accepted criston into her service as her own personal protector in spite of his predatory behavior towards rhaenyra (which she acknowledges), and continuously tries to have rhaenyra and her sons disinherited and killed due to her own spreading of the bastard rumors. not to mention that she was eighteen when she married viserys to rhaenyra's nine. there's really nothing romantic about it. in the show almost everything is still the same except for her being the one to arrange helaena's marriage to her known degenerate and rapist son (in f&b viserys is the one who had them marry) and most likely told her the same rhetoric of rhaenyra killing them to secure her claim that she told her sons from when they were babies up until the coup. with rhaenyra she still antagonizes her because she (lemme check again, told alicent she didn't sleep with daemon and got otto fired because he was working against the crown to install his grandson as heir over her). don't even get me started on the villainization of rhaenyra in order to uphold alicent's constant victimization storyline. alicent is the one who abused rhaenyra, not the other way around, and the age changes in the show (which are so stupid omg) only serve to make alicent more sympathetic and rhaenyra an apparent privileged brat who doesn't understand what it's like to suffer because of the men in her life and therefore deserves her fate (i can literally see the entire galaxy with how far back my eyes are rolled rn.)

if the show wanted to include or focus on two women who were torn apart by the patriarchy and the men around them, helaena's blank character was right there for the taking (and would've been even juicier with the sister vs sister, queen consort vs queen regnant debacle.) she has no personality in the book or any relevance besides losing her children in violent ways and going mad, they definitely could have made her a more present character on screen in a manner that adds an actual emotional connection to her but alas, rhaenicent is top priority. furthering that, if the show wanted to include queer representation with their leading lady, laena had more hints in the text for that type of relationship than anything the show has given us for the rhaenyra/alicent dynamic, even with how hard they're trying to force it down our throats.

the entire relationship has made the story go completely off kilter because the show won't just let it be, and it's affected almost all of their other relationships. they're not going to convince me that rhaenyra cares about alicent more than her own children or even vice versa (though in an entirely different manner) and that reconciliation is possible in spite of aemond murdering luke. it makes both the characters and the writers look like delusional idiots. there's absolutely no reason for these types of glaring mistakes in a series where characterization and the relationships that revolve from them are the reason it's so popular amongst the masses. this lack of proper relationship building has caused hotd to feel a lot more shallow and lackluster than what you'd expect with how massive it's budget was when they created it, the amount of talented actors they casted, and the literal blueprint laid out of what not to do that got season eight is. someone should have taken accountability for these dumb decisions and realized how quickly they're streamlining straight towards what ruined game of thrones in the first place.

#f&b #hotd #hotd critical #rhaenyra targaryen #pro rhaenyra #helaena targaryen #laena velaryon #anti alicent hightower #anti criston cole #anti aegon ii targaryen #anti viserys i targaryen #anti rhaenicent #faye answers #anonymous #whoever you are i'm sorry

[selfproclaimedunicorn]

So everyone who read F&B & took the surface level interpretation of Aegon's landing is gullible, right? Are we agreeing on that? Because the whole thing is giving "and everyone clapped."

Like, you've got to be willing to just buy whatever anyone tells you is fact if you are coming away from F&B like "everyone loved when Aegon & his sisters showed up! The dragons roared & the smallfolk were all Foaming At The Mouth Guy from ATLA!" Also, speaking of buying, Targnation, walk with me. I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale real cheap that I think one of you guys would love to own

#misa reads f&b #anti targaryen #anti targ stans #just to cover my bases #ive blocked so many of them (precarious given i signed up for the hotd bigbang) but i am not SEAKING THEM OUT #i cant have blocked ALL of them so a few could very well fall through the cracks to try & fight me #babes this aint for you #its for me & the mutuals #the targ critical girlies (gender neutral) #and i dont have the time or energy to get in circular fights where everyone has already made up their minds

[eliaism]

the man who was obsessed with nyra and the ex “friend” who lets her delusions and lies that are pretty obviously untrue from her father guide her rather than common sense are the ones who need to stay away from rhaenyra especially when you consider that in canon (the book) that Criston first came into Rhaenyra’s life when she was like 7 or 8 and even Alicent said “ser Criston protects rhaenyra from her enemies but who protects rhaenyra from ser Criston”

Also both book and show Rhaenyra were the ones mistreated and abused in the rhaenyra/alicent relationship but I’m happy that this goon at least doesn’t ship nyra with her stepmother-exfriend-abuser-usurper. And Alicent and her doe eyes and victim complex who can never be criticized or you’re “victim blaming” her is more of a Mary Sue.

HOTD was a mistake.

#rhaenyra targaryen #queen rhaenyra targaryen #pro rhaenyra targaryen #team black #a song of ice and fire #asoiaf #fire and blood #f&b #anti alicent hightower #anti criston cole #anti team green #anti tg #anti rhaenicent #house of the dragon critical #hotd critical #anti ryan condal #anti sara hess