#el being his girlfriend doesn't mean he's shown her the same care as he has will

[bylertruther]

the fact that mike didn't let dustin touch will or let any of them even attempt to comfort him on halloween night is so telling... if he'd done that to just max that'd be understandable, because she's the new girl + outsider, but dustin and lucas?

the boys they've known since forever? the og party members? the other two guys who heard him out and helped him even when they thought he was just sick with grief after seeing will's body pulled from the river? he's going to say that to dustin, who stuck by his side and believed him no matter what? to lucas, who went to the gate on his own to find will, armed with nothing but his own bravery and his wrist rocket? lucas, who was so upset and angry that week only because he felt like mike was wasting time they could've otherwise used to find will? dustin and lucas, the two boys who stuck with him through everything and who almost died with him for it?

they're the other half of the party. if anyone is going to help him with will, it would be them! if anyone is going to understand and genuinely care, it's them! undoubtedly!

and yet... mike makes caring for will his role. his privilege. his duty. it's his thing that only him and no one else ever gets to do or share with him.

when lucas gets hurt, mike doesn't push dustin away—it's not something that even crosses his mind. he lets them both fret over him and instead turns on eleven to express his disappointment. when eleven gets hurt, mike tends to her, lets others tend to her, and asks others for help, too. when he's helping someone, he generally welcomes any extra hands and guidance he can get because he wants whoever it is to be well.

the same cannot be said for will.

he always goes after him. he always makes sure to permanently plant himself by will's side, like in the entirety of s2, in s3 when he always stayed near will in action sequences (excl. starcourt) or sat with him whenever the party was grouped up, and in s4 when he again held will back and put his arm over him in the shootout. (i can't even say that s1 breaks this pattern, because he spent that entire season looking for him and never losing sight of that.) he always keeps an eye on him, checks in on him, and wants to be the person that will turns to and entrusts with everything. he has always been this way, has never stopped being this way, and he has never once shown this level of care and attention to anyone else. this is specifically a will thing and it's different from the way that he cares about and treats others, including eleven.

he seeks help only if it's something he himself can't remedy on his own—like the d'art issue. he accepts help only if it's from one of will's family members, because obviously they take precedence. even then, however, judging by how he shoehorned himself into their home in s2 and stayed for the shed scene, it's safe to say that he still feels he needs and deserves to be there in some way, too.

we even have canonical evidence that supports this and suggests that mike views will as someone separate and special to him in a way that no one else is. recall: "the last year has been weird, you know? and i mean, you know, max and lucas and dustin, they’re… they’re great. they’re great. it’s just… […] it’s not the same without you.”

like... i just think it's so fascinating and tragic that everyone keeps pushing mike back to eleven, when his relationship with her makes him feel inferior to her, enough that he can't even call himself the lois to her superman, and like he's some random useless nerd with nothing to offer. he knows that she doesn't need him, knows that she's been lying to him - which suggests a lack of trust in him, and maybe even doubts that she even wants him anymore after "from, el". and he stays in this relationship! because he thinks it's what he deserves! he thinks this is what relationships are like! but will...

will makes him feel needed, understood, and loved. will makes him feel like superman. not because he has any powers, but just because of who he is, because of how fiercely he loves, and because of how brave and smart he always is. will loves his nerdiness, considers it his strength even, and paints him a portrait that shows just that—a reminder for if he ever dares forget. will looks at him and loves everything that he sees, and makes sure that mike knows it, too. will hears him without mike ever needing to say anything at all. he knows mike and he loves him and he makes it known. he doesn't let mike forget and he doesn't shut him down.

in turn, mike views will as his equal, his teammate, and his best of best friends. he cares about will not out of necessity, because this is a role given to him by others, or because the fate of the world depends on it, but because he wants to and it's how they've always been. they're the cleric and the paladin: will is forever going to do his best to heal the bruises on mike's heart and mike is forever going to do whatever he can to protect will.

mike gets upset when he thinks that will hasn't paid enough attention to him (see: rink-o-mania) and he gets upset when someone else tries to comfort will, because he feels that's his place (see: halloween). he wants that to be their thing and only their thing.

in s1 dustin says that lucas is mike's best friend. if mike is this devoted to will, to the point that others are worried about him at times, then what does that make will to him? if, as s4 showed us, going after someone without hesitation even when it's dangerous, stupid, and the odds of success are stacked against you, is a sign of true love, then... what is will? mike took it so personally any time someone slighted will to the point that he physically fought back for once. he almost died to save will multiple times. in s1 everyone thinks he's been acting weird or hurting because of him, but then they see that eleven is a girl and they chalk it up to that instead and inadvertently push him in that direction.

i'm not saying that mike knew what his feelings were in s1, especially since he couldn't even describe what romance was to eleven before he kissed her, but i do think that his feelings were there and confirmed tenfold by season four. whatever will is to him, "it's not the same" and we've always been shown that.

#byler #mine #so many words but tht is simply bc i have so many thoughts n feelingz abt them 😔👉👈.. . . #there is no comparable relationship for mike there just Isn't lmao #el being his girlfriend doesn't mean he's shown her the same care as he has will #he just. hasn't! he has not! lmao! #cute scenes =/= the same level of devotion #'most important person in the world' and yet.... his previous actions... do Not suggest this #im srry but i jus . i have eyes.

[mlchaelwheeler]

Why Mike and El Shouldn't (And Won't) Be Endgame

Before I start this analysis of sorts, I just want to say that yes, I do believe byler will be endgame, but I will be taking an objective perspective to Mike and El's respective characters, as well as their relationship with each other. That aside, let's dive in!

Mike and El meet at a very eventful time in both of their lives. For Mike, his best friend of 7 years has just gone missing. For El, she's just escaped a prison (the lab) where she's spent her whole life. They are pushed together by a mutual need: Mike needs El to find Will, and El needs Mike to survive the real world, and stay away from the "bad men." It's clear throughout S1 that Mike and El have created a special bond--while some call it romantic, I don't think that's really on their minds. What they want (and need at this point) is a strong friendship.

El has just escaped from the only place she's ever known, thrust into a new world she knows nothing about, and in which she knows no one. Should she be jumping into a romantic relationship 2ish days after meeting Mike? No, she absolutely should not. I doubt she even understands what romance is, let alone the difference between being Mike's friend or his girlfriend--to her, they likely mean the same thing: Mike cares about her. It's the same for Mike. S1 shows (and tells) us over and over again that Mike isn't thinking about El as a possible girlfriend. Lucas tells him: "if you love her so much, why don't you marry her?" Dustin questions why Mike doesn't understand why Lucas is upset and has to spell it out that Lucas is jealous of El--jealous that Mike is wasting time on her when they could be looking for Will at the lab. Even Nancy asks Mike if he likes El. To all 3 of these querys, Mike responds negatively or is confused. He clearly isn't thinking about El romantically, but he is starting to realize maybe he should be, since everyone is asking him about her.

For me, S1 is the purest and best form of Mike and El's relationship. It's their true dynamic together before they're forced to conform to outside expectations. Once S2 starts, we see El watching romantic soap operas on tv, likely shaping her view of what romance is like. After her rushed kiss with Mike in the S1 finale, she's likely realizing that this means she's Mike's girlfriend now, and should be initiating romantic interactions between them. From the soap operas, she's getting a very over exaggerated view of what romance is--however, she has no way to tell that it's not realistic. In soap operas, people break up all the time and get back together the next episode. It's normal, right? She sure thinks so. This will go on to skew her views of her relationship with Mike. No matter what they go through, or how he treats her, it will always work out in the end. That's how the soap operas go anyways. El is clinging to a sense of perceived normalcy because she so desperately wants to be normal for once.

While Mike doesn't see El much in S2 (he's with Will all season), he calls her on the radio every night since she goes missing. Lots of people read this as romantic and a big love confession of sorts, but I think Mike would've done this for any one of the Party. Time and time again, we're shown how loyal Mike is to his friends--remember, this is the same Mike who jumped off a cliff to save Dustin's teeth!! He obviously felt massive guilt over El's "death" in the S1 finale. She slept in his basement, helped him find Will alive, relied on him to keep her safe from the "bad men," and then "died" keeping him and his friends safe? No wonder he called her every night hoping she was still out there--after all, he did see her that same night outside his living room window, so he did have a reason to hope she'd actually hear him. Again though, if Lucas or Dustin would've disappeared instead of El, I think Mike would've called them on the radio too, trying to reach them. Remember, all throughout S1, Mike believed (not really) that Will was dead--and even saw his body!--but still attempted to contact him over the radio multiple times. If he did this for Will, obviously he would for El too. These are parallels that should be noticed together.

Moving on to S3, this is the first time we see Mike and El as an actual couple. This is obviously the first relationship for either of them, and it's made clear from the start of the season that they're not better together than they are apart. Whereas their interactions are sweet and inclusive of their friends in S1 and S2, come S3, they're ignoring everyone in favor of constantly making out. They don't even really talk to each other! When Mike tries singing, El tells him to stop and just resumes kissing him. When Mike tries to find El a gift at the mall, he is unable to do so--not because he doesn't have enough money, but because he has no idea what she'd actually like.

The sad thing is, no matter what he'd pick out, El would probably love it, because it's from Mike. S3 makes it clear El hasn't grown her sense of identity at all since escaping the lab--nearly 2 years prior! She sadly asks Max at the mall, "how do I know what I like?" She's never actually stopped to consider what she might enjoy because she just always goes along with whatever Mike or Hopper tells her. That's not really anyone's fault, it's just how it is because they're teaching her about the normal world. She's been learning so much that she hasn't had time to stop and think about what she enjoys. Luckily, the break she gets from Mike allows her to explore other possibilities--new styles, new food, and new friendships. Her time with Max is the time when she arguable gets the most growth character-wise in the series. She can focus on herself without being caught up in Mike.

I should also point out here that the story makes it clear that El only grows as a character when she's apart from Mike. This is intentional--when she's Mike's girlfriend, she is stagnant as a character. In S2, her solo adventure to discover her past helps her understand her roots and develop her powers. She becomes more independent--traveling to Mama's house and Chicago by herself, which is a huge step for her after not leaving the lab for 12 years. Then, she gets back to Hawkins and "defeats" the mindflayer, but from that point on her character falls short, as she goes back to Mike. She regains this sense of independence and agency in S3 after she breaks up with Mike, and has more development up until she loses her powers. When 3 months go by, and she's moving, she seems to be back to how she was before the breakup--completely dependent on Mike. We see this again in the opening of S4. Her room is a literal shrine to Mike! She has't made any friends, has isolated herself emotionally and physically, and is sending letters full of lies to Mike. When Mike arrived in California, they go back to their old S3 selves, but things are a bit off because El's covering for her lies. She's obviously angry because Mike can't tell her he loves her, so she's in tune that something in their relationship is wrong. Unfortunately, El sees her worth as being tied to her powers, so when Dr. Owens gives her the opportunity to get them back, she jumps at the chance. Maybe Mike will love her if she goes to become a superhero again. After all, that's why he "fell in love" with her in the first place right? Because she used her powers to find Will and save them from the demogorgan?

El's narrative has been building up her independence since the beginning of S2. She has to realize that her powers do not define her--she's worth so much for just being her! If Mike tells her he loves her just after she gets her powers back, it will feel cheap. El should be affronted by this, and should rightfully call him out. Mike can find thousands of other reasons to love El besides her powers! If he can't say it, well, there must be a deeper reason. I think that by diving into her past, El has been able to understand her trauma more fully and grow from that, triggering her hopeful resurgence of independence. However, the story has made it clear that she can't do that while being in a romantic relationship with Mike.

Speaking of Mike, let's look closer at how his interactions with El have changed after becoming her boyfriend vs when they were just friends. I think everyone can agree that Mike and El were adorable in S1. Their smiles, their understanding that they were both missing something (a home and a best friend), and their actions say it all. However, these are all platonic things, and I think they both viewed themselves as just friends until other people brought romantic feelings into the equation. In S1, Mike shows lots of emotion when interacting with El: his smile and voice after she saves him from the cliff ("El, you're not the monster, you saved me. You saved me!"), explaining what friendship is, setting up the basement fort for her, yelling at Papa as he takes her away, etc. Mike also shows emotion with her in S2, before they're properly "together." However, his interactions with her feel much more forced and unemotional with her from S3 onward. He doesn't even seem a bit sad after El breaks up with him--if anything, he seems offended, not something someone who just lost the love of their life should feel. When he tries to clue El into his feelings in the grocery store, he stutters around the real words, unable to make eye contact or say "I love you." When she confesses her love to him before moving away, he doesn't respond and looks downright confused after their kiss. When she confronts him about "from Mike" in S4, Mike is stiff and unemotional as El sobs in front of him. He blames other people for their problems when the real problem is himself. This isn't the same Mike as S1-2, where he would've shown at least some emotion and done anything to make El feel better.

These are key narrative choices that the show has been pushing to show that something's not right--things are not as they should be. If we step back and look at Mike and El's narratives as a whole, it's clear that they're both worse versions of themselves when they're together. Mike becomes an unemotional puppet of himself, simply going through the motions of being in a relationship. El becomes completely dependent and lost in a fantasy world of soap opera-type relationships, and is unable to cope with faced with real-world problems. If the show has constantly pushed this idea, how does it make sense that they'd end up together? Why stunt the development of 2 main characters just to have Mike and El end in a romantic relationship? It's clear that they're the most genuine with each other--and the rest of their friends/family--when they're platonic with a capital P. The narrative isn't building up to a big romantic confession, it's leading to a mutual understanding that they never shouldn't rushed into a relationship they neither wanted nor understood in the first place.

#these are my thoughts on these 2. i think they're the bestest besties tho <3 elmike >>>>> #i was very objective. but it's clear that mike is worse with el. who is he better with??? will. that's who #ok thanks for coming to my ted talk #mike wheeler #jane hopper #byler #stranger things #stranger things analysis #sarah.txt #meta

[mothellie]

i’d never heard of stali before today but now you have me intrigued !!!! do you have any fic recs for them or or have you written anything? x

OH MY GOD? THANKS? FOR THIS ASK??? This is gonna be a really long answer to this and I'm so sorry about that I just want an excuse to talk about them.

Genuinely Stali is such an underrated ship to me. I think they have so many characteristics that are both opposite and complementary that would make them such an interesting couple.

Steve is a character who, from the beginning, is shown to crave and chase love, affection and validation from those around him. Even after his King Steve years have been put behind him, he still wants people to like him and choose him. I could go on and on about what this could mean in regards to his homelife and upbringing but I'll spare you for now lmao.

Kali is a character who, from the beginning, is continually let down or abandoned by those who claim to have her best interests at heart. She was abused and treated like a rat in a science experience. She's so consumed by her anger over the cards she was dealt and the lack of that validation Steve also craves that she turns to violence. She wants the people who hurt her to feel even a sliver of the pain they put her through.

As someone who's special interest is The Last of Us, and who has a deep appreciation for the second game, Kali reminds me a lot of a character from the second game. Skip the next paragraph if you haven't played TLOU2 and don't wanna be spoiled.

Kali and Abby have so much in common it physically pains me. Obviously they have wildly different trauma, but the result is the same. They're consumed with the resounding resolve that is 'revenge', at any cost. They both have this idea that if they can somehow enact an appropriate level of this vigilante-style justice that it will balance the scales and heal them. They both have a group of friends enabling this behavior and even participating in it, which only furthers their drive to continue. Obviously both friend groups have different reasons for playing along, and Abby's group is much more personally involved in the pain as well. But it's still the same to me. And, while we never saw this in Kali's story, Abby eventually realizes that 'getting revenge' never actually did anything to heal the gaping wound the trauma she experienced left in her. Instead, it was her connections to Yara and (to a larger degree) Lev that ultimately gave her peace. It was genuine love that healed her, not continuing the cycle of violence and hate. I'd like to think if we saw more of Kali's story that this would've been a fantastic route to explore and would've served her character so well. I could also go into a whole essay about how Kali and El could've been the perfect parallel to Abby and Lev but I'm not gonna get into that here.

I think putting these two characters together would benefit both of their character developments. It's the exact reason I see a lot of people saying for why they like ships like Harringrove. You have a character who has felt pain in every corner of their life eventually learning how to be taken care of for once. Getting to put down their defenses and just be utterly vulnerable without the fear of betrayal.

Steve would be good for Kali in the sense that, for once, she wouldn't have to fight for herself. You know Steve 'Self-Sacrificing' Harrington, who knows his girlfriend is perfectly capable of taking care of herself and is so much stronger than him in every tangible sense, would still be the first throw himself to bat for her. He would stand up for her and protect her without it ever being a necessity. Not because he doesn't trust her to be capable of defending herself, but because she shouldn't be expected to fight every single fight alone. Mental or physical.

Kali would be good for Steve in the sense that she would be this lighthouse for him in times of pain. She may absolutely have an avoidant attachment style, but once she's attached, she's never letting go. You cannot convince me that girl isn't loyal to a fault. She doesn't get nice things often, and she's not gonna be quick to give them up if they ever present themselves. Steve with his anxious attachment style needs to know that he holds importance in people's lives.

I feel like she would also be a turning point for him as far as discovering himself. She would encourage him to explore his interests and personal taste in things. Steve strikes me as someone who often does things and dresses certain ways because it's easier than change. She would urge him to try new clothing styles, listen to new music, watch new movies, go out and experience new things with her. Steve, who's most likely lived in the same place his entire life, finally getting to be carefree and live his life with his badass punk girlfriend is not a want- it's a dire need.

Hozier just dropped a song and it's so them to me it hurts. It's called Too Sweet and PLEASE walk with me. This song is obviously from Kali's POV.

It can't be said I'm an early bird It's 10 o'clock before I say a word Baby, I can never tell How do you sleep so well? You keep tellin' me to live right To go to bed before the daylight But then you wake up for the sunrise You know you don't gotta pretend Baby, now and then Don't you just wanna wake up Dark as a lake Smellin' like a bonfire Lost in a haze? If you're drunk on life, babe I think it's great But while in this world I think I'll take my whiskey neat My coffee black and my bed at three You're too sweet for me You're too sweet for me I take my whiskеy neat My coffee black and my bed at three You're too sweet for mе You're too sweet for me

Kali views herself as this bitter person all around. Stays up late, drinks black coffee and drinks bitter liquor. While it's true that she's definitely bitter in a lot of ways, I can see her viewing herself the way this song outlines. Like not only is she not sweet, she's incapable of being anything related to 'sweet'. While Steve has his life pretty much together from an outsider's view.

I aim low I aim true, and the ground's where I go I work late where I'm free from the phone And the job gets done But you worry some, I know But who wants to live forever, babe? You treat your mouth as if it's Heaven's gate The rest of you like you're the TSA I wish that I could go along Babe, don't get me wrong You know you're bright as the morning As soft as the rain Pretty as a vine As sweet as a grape If you can sit in a barrel Maybe I'll wait

The bit about the job and how it worries the subject reminds me SO MUCH of Kali's schtick for vengeance. She goes out and murders these people who wronged, finishing the 'job' of enacting revenge in her eyes. Steve very clearly worrying about her safety or how this will affect her if she ever were to get caught a few lines later and Kali dismissing him, saying 'who wants to live forever?'

The bit about about treating his lips like Heaven's gate I'M WEAK PLEASE. The line itself is meant to reference the Heaven's gate cult and how they incorporated kool-aid into their final action (not gonna get into details obviously because it's a little triggering but you can look it up if you aren't already aware). The line is supposed to mean that, according to Genius lyrics, the subject of the song is 'so eager for love and validation that they’re willing to accept something that will bring them harm in the end.' TELL ME I'M WRONG I DARE YOU THAT IS A STALI CODED LYRIC.

You could read that as Steve being so insistent that he wants to be with Kali that he's willing to endure what she perceives as the downfalls of being with her, which is closest to the actual intention of the lyric. Or you could also connect it to his connection to Nancy and how he continues to be drawn back to her despite the pain it seems to bring him. It could also even refer to the myriad of other smaller off screen flings he had where he continues to disappoint himself and break his own heart just trying to seek out love and validation. That last point is furthered with the line about treating his body like the TSA (y'know, the pat downs and full body searches :P).

Overall, Stali as a ship is very Hozier-coded in general. I can think of so many Hozier songs that fit them. Work Song and It Will Come Back especially.

As far as fic recommendations, I highly recommend this little oneshot on AO3 about Kali coming home to Steve after going on another quest for vengeance and wondering why he stays with her. Unfortunately I haven't read a whole lot of Stali fics, and I haven't published any myself yet.

HOWEVER, I have like five Stali story WIPs in my arsenal that I'm finally starting to work on. Some mostly canon compliant, some canon divergent, one alternate universe. I plan to write them more and do more with them.

Genuinely, and I mean this with my entire chest, never hesitate to send me asks about them. Ask me for specific headcanons, ask me for drabbles, request a oneshot. I will never get tired of them. That goes for basically any Kali pairing as well, including and especially Punkpistol (Kali/Nancy). Kali as a character deserves so much more recognition that she gets and I wish people were half as feral about her as I am.

#cassie answers #nonnie asks #stali #steve harrington #kali prasad

[sevensided]

Thoughts on the line "I say it" in the s4 Mike and El fight? FW delivers it so strongly, like Mike is actually convinced that he says "I love you" to El... but clearly he doesn't and I don't think his actions speak to undying romantic love either (he's very sweet, caring, and protective toward El, but a lot of that comes from his s1 guilt/trauma and just who he is as a person IMO) so it's a bit confusing to me. Especially since he doesn't really address any other parts of what she says, instead choosing to foist the blame off onto the "mouthbreathers" who are "tearing [them] apart."

Ty for your input!

Oh my gosh... I think about that delivery a lot. And I have so many thoughts.

Oddly, as soon as I saw that scene, I thought, 'He's right'. He does show El that he loves her. As you said, he is a caring and compassionate person to the people he loves. He does things for them. He looks after them. He's an asshole to everyone else, but hey! Can't have everything, right? (/s)

I think the key here is that yes, Mike does love El. Whether that's romantic is, naturally, up for debate. But he fixates on that part of her monologue because that hurts. It's hurtful that she would accuse him of not loving her when he absolutely does, when he tries as best as he is able considering he's a teenage kid with dysfunctional parents who doesn't know how you have a girlfriend, didn't ever think he would have a girlfriend, but here that girlfriend is, and nothing you do is good enough, and shit, maybe he isn't good enough, but shouldn't love make you feel good? And why doesn't this feel good? And is he allowed to be angry at someone he loves? Does it mean that he doesn't love her if he stands up for himself?

A lot of this is about boundaries and figuring out how to negotiate the complicated dynamic that is a romantic relationship. They're allowed to fuck up because they are teenagers - no teenager has it figured out. Having said that, something that always strikes me about Mike and El is that it is always quite laboured. There is nothing easy or natural about it, there always seems to be some degree of artifice or insincerity or self-consciousness, and that stems, probably, from their individual insecurity and uncertainty around how to have a relationship. Mike doesn't have good self-esteem. El's just figured out what self-esteem is. Not a great combination.

That isn't to say they couldn't work this out. But that isn't what the show is portraying. True, this could all be to underscore the struggle of their relationship to give it a greater pay-off when they do finally work it out... But may I present into evidence Exhibit A: Lucas and Max? They're far more mature at the same age and have dealt with a lot - perhaps not comparable - but a lot of shit. Yet, the story has shown them working it out - slowly, yes, but consistently. We're on E07 and I know they are getting back together and have reached a new level of meaning in their relationship. That is incredible writing, and it actually made me cry.

But Mike and El? We're not getting that. We just keep getting that this (vague gestures) is difficult. It is not working. They aren't 'speaking the same language' - as if they're 'from different planets'. They're different species. There is something not clicking where it should, and that is concerning for both of them.

So, in summary, Mike does show El that he loves her. I would say that his force on that line is a combination of things, one of them being that he feels like he isn't good enough. What about when Mike says to Will at the rink, 'Why am I the bad guy?' That line isn't just about Will; it's about El, too.

#answered #byler

[strangertheory]

"anti-Mileven"

I know you submitted this as a message and not an Ask, but I hope you don't mind if I answer your question with a longer post because this is a topic that is important to me but is complicated. I've meant to do a post about this, but kept putting it off because it is a very layered topic for me and my thoughts about Mileven are probably not what a lot of fans want to hear.

I respect that everyone develops an attachment to their preferred couples in stories for personal reasons, and as such any criticism of the dynamic between two characters that are dating can feel like a very personal criticism. I respect everyone's head-canons and favorite ships as sacred ground: I don't want to tell anyone how they should or should not relate to a story. That's unique to each of us as fans, and we will all enjoy Stranger Things for different reasons.

However: I do have some thoughts regarding the way that the narrative has established the dynamic between Mike and El. And I personally do not find their dynamic *as it currently is* to be one that is ideal for either of them yet.

I really care about Eleven and I really care about Mike. They are two of my favorite characters in the story.

To say that I'm "anti-Mileven" is a huge oversimplification of how I feel about Mike and El's dynamic.

I am very much anti:

overlooking the fact El has been treated as a lab rat and abused and isolated from society for the majority of her existence and her ignorance of her own identity and her own desires is repeatedly reinforced canonically. ("How do I know what I like?") El has spent only a few months out in the world beyond her cell at the lab and beyond Hopper's cabin, she knows very little about the world yet, and she is being taught much of what she now knows by her boyfriend who also happens to be one of the few people she interacts with in her daily life. The power difference and social difference between them is huge currently regardless of whether Mike is a nice kid with good intentions or not, and they are both fourteen years olds.

overlooking that it is superficial and not representative of a "deep" relationship to only kiss and make out with a significant other and not do other meaningful activities that establish a real day-to-day relationship (like hanging out with friends and other loved ones as a couple.) There's a popular misconception that the act of two people kissing is inherently romantic and a sign of emotional closeness. But kissing becomes romantic psychologically when two people share a deep affection for one another that is based on shared experiences and emotional and psychological connectedness. If two characters can be shown to care about one another without ever physically touching, they have the potential for a deep connection that is based on more than the thrill of physical affection. Give me a well-developed relationship first, and then kissing will seem romantic to me. Without an established psychological and emotional connection between characters, kissing is merely a superficial representation of the idea of intimacy between characters without any actual substance underneath. Sure that's what kids do when they're figuring out how dating and feelings and physical intimacy work and it's not harmful in itself provided that they are both comfortable with it, but keep this in mind within the context of the other concerns I list here.

trivializing Mike's dishonesty and blaming Hopper for Mike's lying when the truth is Mike could have easily explained to El that Hopper didn't want them spending as much time together and having some space would be better. El is well aware of Hopper's dislike for their time spent together. This should have been a very easy conversation. As Lucas rightfully asks as Mike is ranting about the situation he got himself into: "Why lie?" Good question, Lucas. Good question. El asks Mike this again later at the mall. "Why do you lie?" Mike stares back at her with an awkward expression, and does NOT answer her. Why is this answer not an easy one? Why has Mike still not addressed things with El? I think there is more going on here than just Hopper's threats.

I am very in favor of:

El learning more about who she is and what she wants to do with her life outside of the desires and expectations of other people.

Mike figuring out how to effectively express his thoughts and feelings honestly. He is clearly struggling to do this throughout season 3, and it is uncharacteristic of the kid who defiantly said and did what he wanted frequently in seasons 1 and 2. Clearly Mike is not comfortable and is nervous, which is understandable for someone exploring new emotionally vulnerable territory like dating for the first time, but he needs to learn to be honest and tell people how he is thinking and feeling or else he is also putting himself and his feelings and needs at risk and potentially establishing an unhealthy relationship that will hurt him and hurt others even if he doesn't mean to. Mike's nervousness is STILL present in the final goodbye scene in which Mike and El talk, and El tells him she loves him and kisses him. He is still stumbling over his words and anxious, and he seems notably confused after El kisses him. These small details are not trivial, they are clearly intentional.

Recognizing that Mike is the first person her age that was kind to El when she escaped the lab, and given that she has only known pain and abuse her entire life and has never known friendship let alone romance that her psychological readiness for understanding a romantic relationship is NOT the same as an ordinary 14 year old's and this cannot be stated enough.

Recognizing that societal pressures and personal insecurities might be a huge factor in how Mike clings to El's attention and affection for him, and that there is evidence in the story that supports this interpretation. We know that Mike is bullied frequently, and that there is a layer of homophobia often involved. (Even if James and Troy were speaking rudely about Will, they were still directly confronting Mike. The implication is there.) We know that Lucas yelled at Mike "No Mike. You're blind. Blind because you like that a girl's not grossed out by you!" This reveals that Lucas knows that Mike is insecure and wants validation. Just because Mike has a desperate desire to be loved and liked by a girl does not mean that his appreciation of El's attention is based on his genuine romantic affection for her. Mike might be dating El because he enjoys the attention, he likes being liked, and he likes how having a girlfriend makes him feel more accepted and normal.

Recognizing that every moment that Mike has tried to share something that he is passionate about with El (the Yoda figurine, the dinosaurs) she has been completely disinterested. Since El has no cultural connection to the pop culture stories Mike loves and she lived in the Lab her entire life, it makes perfect sense that she will have no interest in these toys. Her lack of interest in what Mike is passionate about, however, is worth noting: not because it's a bad thing, but because it's just one of many reasons they are "not even from the same planet" and cannot bond and connect easily. El has lived an incredibly different life from Mike, has suffered through so much, and is still learning about the outside world and about herself. She is severely behind in social and personal development. She needs time to learn and to grow and to heal so she can live her best life and recover from what she has been through. (She doesn't really care about your Star Wars toys, Michael, because she just learned what a phone is and is processing a lot of other things right now.)

*I want to credit @kaypeace21 for pointing out many of these particular observations listed above: you can read her very detailed and extensive analysis in her post here: El is Not in Love with Mike.

These are just a few of many thoughts I have regarding Mike and El's dynamic together, and why I find the romanticization and idealization of their dating relationship to be more suited to fan-canon and fanfiction. For El to have a relationship with Mike that I would personally enjoy and appreciate, the story would need to convincingly allow her to establish a notably better understanding of who she is and what she wants, and have time to heal from her trauma and learn a lot more about the outside world. While I suspect that the Byers moving away will be very difficult for Will, in many ways I think it will benefit El tremendously and I hope that she is given more opportunities to learn and to grow.

I also agree with @hawkinsschoolcounselor 's hypothesis that Mike is projecting his feelings for Will onto El. It's impossible for me to see Mike's dynamic with El as entirely separate from Mike's relationship with Will because El was found in the woods when they were looking for Will in season 1, El helped everyone find Will in the Upside Down and saved his life, and El reappears at the end if season 2 and saves Will from the Mindflayer. Until season 3, El's appearance in Mike's life has been directly tied to Will's survival and safety. I do not think this is a trivial aspect of El's narrative. El's importance within the larger story being told is repeatedly tied back to what Will is dealing with. The reason that El and Will's narratives are so deeply intertwined has not been revealed in the story yet, but I suspect that there are some important aspects of El and Will's stories that haven't been fully revealed yet that will bring all of these seemingly isolated plot threads together. The creators of Stranger Things repeatedly tie El and Will together visually and narratively (re: @kaypeace21), and I believe there is a very specific reason for this.

I look forward to seeing what happens in season 4. Whether my interpretation of El and Mike's dynamic is fair or not, I trust the writers have a compelling next chapter in their story for us all to enjoy.

#anti mileven #antimileven #anti-mileven #stranger things #stranger things theory #but not actually anti mileven I am tagging it that way because I am critical #so fans can choose to not read my thoughts

[kaypeace21]

why is there so much denial of Will being gay?? Like, nothing Will has done has shown him to be anytging but possibly gay. Like, nobody thinks he'z gay because he's a nerd that doesn't have a girlfriend!! We think he's gay because of all the fucking subtext!!!!

There are a few reasons for this, and they’re all (for the most part) rooted in homophobia. 1) There are those who (may or may not) notice the subtext, but ignore it with the excuse of “he’s too young; stop sexualizing him!”. All while shipping lumax, and mileven. Whether they want to admit it or not, this is homophobic! They view (subconscious or otherwise) being queer as inherently sexual, dirty, and adult. And that only straight relationships can be pure and innocent and based on compatible personalities. Straight kids can have innocent crushes (but in their eyes) queer kids can’t- they may not even exist, to them. 

 2) There are some mileven shippers (who whether they want to admit it) hate Will, because the possibility he has powers or is gay- threatens their precious het ship. Because a lot of them don’t see El as her own person (just a part of their ship) or a vessel for being a badass with powers. They don’t appreciate her for the nuanced character she is.  They either get angry at the idea of Will being gay or having powers, or are only happy with him being queer if he’s sad and in an unrequited one-sided love/ or is single forever. Or they’ll say “why don’t you just ship him with someone else… like Dustin?” Ignoring the fact Dustin hasn’t been queer coded like Mike (or had romantically coded scenes with Will), or that people ship byler for Will and Mike, not cause it’s simply m/m. I mean, can you imagine byler shippers saying ‘Just ship El with Dustin, it’s a guy and girl… it’s practically the same thing”? No, of course not! It shows their bias- and how they feel privileged and entitled to their straight ship even though there are millions of similar ships in media to choose from- unlike queer ships which are far and few in between. However, we’re supposed to be the ones who pick another option- and are told our ships are ‘all the same’. Whether they are aware of this bias, they consider queer ships a joke, and all the same.

3) Those who relate to Will and his struggles,  hate the idea of relating to a queer character. There is a reason why shows like ‘Will &Grace’ in the 90s were popular, but even today the second a character who people assumed was straight is revealed as lgbt+ viewers get angry! It’s because they feel ‘tricked’ into liking, relating and empathizing with a character that they would otherwise have immediately put in a ‘box’ and  distanced themselves from . Whether they are aware of it or not, they would immediately attribute stereotypes to them and never try to empathize with them, because ‘they’re gay, and ‘how can I relate to that’? They don’t want to relate to them (because subconscious or otherwise) they think being gay is bad or just too foreign.They don’t see queer people as full-fledged people. They’re just gay- nothing more.

Which is why when they angrily say “he’s just afraid to grow up, HE’S NOT GAY!”  They are essentially saying a gay, abused kid, who has ptsd, and was violated by the MF (and was also hinted m**ested by Lonnie too) can’t be afraid to grow up, since he lost his childhood. Only straight people have these type of human-fears and characterizations!

Forget the fact, that Will also wouldn’t want to grow up- because than he’d have to acknowledge his sexuality (at a time where all you heard about gay men was they were evil , mentally ill, going to hell and dying of aids as a punishment by god). Not to mention Will’s ptsd and the fact he lost 2 years of his childhood on top of that.He even says “I’m not … going to fall in love” (not convincingly) , right after the movie date with Mike.

4) They’re so used to straight media, and everyone being presumed straight and having media catered to them (the straight audience)- That they’ll ignore or miss every hint there is a queer character. 

So what are the hints of Will being gay (or at least- some other lgbt identity.

Called many homophobic slurs  since s1 ( specifically ”queer, fag, fairy, and gay”) by his dad and bullies. Jonathan in s1 tells Will to “not like things just because people tell you you’re supposed to, especially not him” ( ‘him’ referring to their dad). Is positioned behind a rainbow apple poster in the av room (ref. to Alan Turning the gay creator of computers), dances with a girl with a rainbow hair-clip, has rainbow bandaids, has his mom says she’s ”so proud” (lgbt+ pride ref) of the rainbow ship he drew . When Will disparages himself as a “freak”, Jonathan asks Will, who would you rather be friends with-  David Bowie (who was openly bi since the 70s) or Kenny Rogers? Will says Bowie, and Jonathan agrees saying “see, it’s no contest”. In the pitch to netflix the Duffers described Will as having “sexual identity issues”. In the leaked s2 snowball script it says “he’s not looking at the cute girl- but Mike.”

All of s2 directly paralleled ‘romantic s1 mileven scenes’ to ‘supposedly platonic byler scenes’. No joke, they had identical scenes, with almost identical framing and dialogue, but it’s all dismissed as friendship (even though the scenes are identical).Byler was also  paralleled to Jancy, Stancy, Jopper, bob/joyce and others. . You can headcannon Will as whatever you want, but like it or not- Will is queer and m/m! We could debate his exact queer sexual identity , but Will was never written and will never be written to be ‘straight’! Stay mad!

If Will was Wilma, the majority of the fandom would be byler shippers. Think about it! Mike having byler scenes that are identical to s1 mileven scenes, and then additional unique byler scenes. Mike staying by Wilma’s side 24 hours a day for several days (not even changing clothes), carrying her out of the hospital, grabbing her hand (with a zoom in shot),constantly asking her if she’s okay at least 5-7 times, putting his arm around her twice, being the only one who could tell something was off with her (and it wasn’t her normal type of quiet). Calling and running all the way to her house and banging on the door to check on her, desperate. Proclaiming “i’m the only one who cares about Wilma!” Watching her sleep cause he’s so worried, that shed scene reminiscing about how they first met in perfect detail, saying “I asked, I asked if you wanted to be my friend. You said yes, you said yes. It was the best thing I’ve ever done. (like a marriage proposal)”  The “crazy together” scene. Them being close since they were 5 vs the girl he knew for a week (but is somehow in love with?). If the witness said about El in s1 , “ same height… it could be the Byers girl”, instead of ‘boy’ (pointing out the resemblance). Mike getting into fights and getting upset (almost crying) about the bullies insulting Wilma. Mike having a whole binder of her drawings and caressing one of the drawings, after he thinks she died.  Being the only one of her friends to stay awake at the hospital, waiting for her to wake up- so he can see her and hug her first. Almost everyone would be team byler if Will was a girl- they probably would of started shipping it the second Wilma stared at him and was the only one who didn’t lie to him, in the first ep! Another parallel to El! 

And again think about s3 if Will was a girl.They paralleled the (comedic) mileven breakup vs (the sad/serious) byler breakup. Then Mike just complained and burped on the couch vs apologizing to Willma multiple times/even going into a storm to apologize a 2nd time (and to ‘talk’). Willma having a breakdown over the fight vs El laughing and high five-ing Max after.The shed vs the pool shed scene- “best thing I’ve ever done” vs “you’re the most important thing in the world to me”, “blank makes you crazy’ (as El stares confused) vs “crazy together’ (where Wilma says ‘yeah, crazy together). Mike going on ‘movie dates with Willma all the time’ right after making out with El. The last mileven kiss where Mike has his eyes open the whole time, doesn’t kiss back, and says he doesn’t remember saying “I love her” to El (and doesn’t say ‘I love you’ back). Right after having a talk with Wilma about playing games when she comes back (the crux of their fight). Mike getting excited that he’ll be able to visit El and Wilma on Thanksgiving and them visiting him on Christmas (those are holidays where family usually introduces their S.O.) Having the last scene of Mike,  be him looking back at Wilma’s house, and have that whole monologue in that scene be about “feelings changing”, and then he goes to hug his mom like the s1 byler scene where he thought Wilma was dead. And that’s not even all the scenes- and every time byler won by a landslide. If Will was a girl, it would be obvious writing on the wall, that Mike would eventually choose Wilma over El by the end of the series.

But since they are 2 boys, we’re delusional, because queer kids don’t exist … apparently.

#byler #byeler #will byers

[bylertruther]

what byler moment do you love the most? And what moment made click and see that Mike has feelings for Will too?

my favorite byler moment is the rain fight hands down. it's THEEEE byler moment to end all byler moments undeniably n irrefutably. the only ones that come close are the shed scene and the dear billy bedroom talk because it reaffirms the shed scene speech. i love the rain fight though bc mike asks him if he really thought they would be together forever without girlfriends and will, even as his heart has been shattered into a million pieces at "it's not my fault you don't like girls," he still says yes. i did. i really did.

and then, after moping and complaining and being totally unsure of how to make up with el, he does EXACTLY what max said mike would do for her, for will. he doesn't need lucas to walk him through it, he does it of his own volition instinctively. not for his girlfriend... but for will. literally bikes across town in the pouring rain!!! the romance film antics of it all...

and then!! we get will crying in castle byers while memories are overlayed that focus on mike's voice and then will tears a photo of them right down the middle. like...... it's just... SO MUCH? will not backing down and saying he DID want forever with mike? and then in s4 he repeats the same thing that mike threw in his face? which could suggest that it's something they've dreamed abt before everything got complicated & suggests will is still always true to himself? and mike chasing after will, breaking his own heart, too, because the fact of the matter is he NEVER wanted to lose will and yet he feels that he's pulling away from him anyway and there's nothing he can do to stop it, even with all of his calls that never even go through. i just. AHHHH!!! THE RAIN FIGHT!!!! cements tht will IS special, even and perhaps ESPECIALLY from el. mike consistently CANNOT give her what he is expected to, because he's too busy giving it to WILL without EVER needing to be coached or told to. byler rain fight solos >>>>>>>>>

i mean, season two in general made me kinda 👀🏳️‍🌈⁉️ bc even though we're shown that mike is the biggest sweetheart, the care that he showed will was just special. and entirely over the top and reckless and dogged (ahem "only love makes you that crazy sweetheart and that damn stupid") just like in s1. and saying he was the best thing he'd ever done? insanity. i thought even with the snowball that they were headed in that direction but then season three came and punched me in the tit so i lost all hope lol.

BUT THEN !!!!!!!!!!!! s4 came and revived me with a defibrillator. the hug threw me off bc i was like oh my godddddddd DON'T TELL ME THIS BOY IS BACK ON HIS MF BULLSHIT BRO PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEE but then. dear lord. WHEN HE GOT ALL WEIRD ABT THE PAINTING? i know a gay when i see one, bro. he had no reason to be weird abt the painting if not gay. AND THEN THE RINK-O-MANIA FIGHT? WE'RE FRIENDS! WE'RE. FRIENDS. BROOOOOOOO THE HOMOSEXUALITY WAS THREW THE ROOF IT'S OVER!!!!!! GIVE IT A REST!!!!!!! that was all i needed 2 see. that, on top of everything else we've previously seen? and then the dear billy scene? hi, gay. welcome back, we missed u dearly.

#long post #asks #not rereading this hope u enjoy my 150am rambles my liege