#denying that fact is a huge disservice to her character tbh! i mean | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

gendrie · 7 years

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idk what it is about watching people deny and downplay sansa’s role in sweetsleepgate but it drives me up the wall. it probably has to do with the fact i have to constantly watch everyone argue she’s the smartest player in the game! until it comes down to this in which case she’s conveniently and totally ignorant. they honestly ignore every bit of sansa’s arc and characterization and common sense and its so frustrating to behold. because the writing itself is not that ambiguous. it’s very clear whats happening here.

"Black amethysts," he swore. "There was magic in them." "There was murder in them!" (ASOS)

this whole thing actually starts in a clash of kings. petyr uses dontos to befriend sansa. we can assume he even tells dontos what to say; praising sansa’s courage and grace, using her love of knight and songs, and her desire to return home in order to manipulate her. thats allll littlefinger. after joffrey’s murder sansa is whisked from the city. she watches littlefinger kill dontos and then they’re off.

sansa knows that littlefinger poisoned joffrey. they have a whole conversation about it. she knows that he put the murder weapon in her hair and had someone else deliver it to joffrey framing tyrion in the process. before lysa dies she spills even more tea that petyr probably wouldve preferred she kept to herself. so sansa also retains the knowledge that petyr had lysa put poison into jon arryns cup and that they framed the lannisters. littlefinger pushes her aunt out of the moon door and frames marillon - which sansa helps him do. now they’re doing the same thing to sweetrobin. they are giving him potentially fatal doses of sweetsleep because their entire plan revolves around him dying.

Her eyes widened. "He is not Lady Waynwood's heir. He's Robert's heir. If Robert were to die . . ." Petyr arched an eyebrow. "When Robert dies. Our poor brave Sweetrobin is such a sickly boy, it is only a matter of time. When Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie.” (AFFC)

grrm intentionally does not show sansa’s reaction to this in affc. he wants to build suspense. we’re left hanging on a thread wondering: will she go along with this knowing the cost? and the answer we get in twow is yes. sansa is going full steam ahead with the plan. she’s already watched littlefinger murder and frame multiple people. this is not idle talk. she even thinks in twow: “petyr baelish did not leave such things to chance” she knows he is not going to cross his fingers and wait for nature to maybe take sweetrobin. littlefinger will kill this child when the time comes. somehow. someway. it doesnt actually matter if its sweetsleep or a dagger. thats not important. and sansa is going ahead as if he will die anyway. she is seducing harry the heir and theres no point in doing that if she expected sweetrobin to live, is there? even sweetrobin understands that people want him dead and that harry would directly benefit from this. if an extremely sheltered 8 year old is able to put these pieces together i don’t want to hear that sansa is too naive. she is almost fourteen, has a great deal of insight into littlefinger’s schemes (like he literally told her they’re gonna kill the kid so), and this ain’t her first rodeo.

sansa does have a habit of repressing and recreating memories that are too scary for her. thats true. and she’s doing plenty of that here. but that doesnt mean she doesnt know the truth. and this is where i think the problem comes in. because readers are accepting sansa’s willful ignorance at face value. despite the fact that she’s right there. its like the trident again. sansa saw what happened (it was her pov) but when called forward she denied seeing anything. she is the most unreliable narrator in this series and cannot be trusted. just as sansa thinking something happened does not mean it actually happened like the un!kiss, perhaps, or marillon killing lysa, the opposite also applies. just because sansa doesn’t acknowledge something doesn’t mean she’s truly ignorant.

Sansa had wondered what had happened to Septa Mordane, although she supposed she had known all along. (AGOT)

this it what she does. but even sansa is able to recognize in the end that she was lying to herself. sansa knows that littlefinger plans on killing sweetrobin but she’s too scared to look the truth in the face. so she looks away. she ignores it. but in doing that she has doomed sweetrobin.

her fear is understandable. she’s wanted by the crown for regicide. she does not want to risk revealing her identity. she’s traumatized from her experiences in kings landing. she’s still so young. she is in a tight spot, no doubt. but sansa is also going to gain a great deal from sweetrobin’s death which makes this very messy. its a classic tempted by the devil situation. littlefinger is once again using her desires to move her. he promises to gift sansa everything she’s ever wanted a handsome lord, knights to champion her cause, and winterfell. sansa desperately wants this. but theres a price. and it is an innocent child’s life. sansa acquiescing to this while she has so much to gain is not a good look tbh.

Littlefinger put a finger to her lips. "I know what I know, and so do you. Some things are best left unsaid, sweetling." (AFFC)

[Sansa] put a finger to his lips. "I know what you want, but it cannot be. I am no fit wife for you. I am bastard born." (TWOW)

as sansa moves from player to pawn and starts to play the game of thrones she begins to become a darker character. she’s not evil. but she is human just like every other pov and they all make shady choices. and they have to live with them. sansa is not exempt from this. she is using and manipulating sweetrobin like others did to her. her feelings for him are complicated. i don’t think she hates him but she doesn’t care about him enough to risk herself or sacrifice everything she would gain from his death. sansa’s relationship with him is not unlike her’s with petyr. she tells him kind lies and makes hollow promises. theres a pseudo family dynamic involved since she becomes his mother figure like petyr is alayne’s father. she even calls him sweetling. sweetrobin is her pawn like she is littlefinger’s. thats the point.

the situation is grey in typical asoiaf fashion. it really brings up numerous questions in morality and culpability. is sansa obligated to risk her own life to save this child? will sansa be guilty in his murder? how guilty? this is something every reader has to decide for themselves. but to just write the entire thing off as sansa not understanding is a cop out. and it does both her character and the story a huge disservice. i know this fandom. so i know when this goes down most people will either think she’s an evil monster or they’ll continue to believe she’s an angel who never did any wrong. thats the problem with this fandom. regardless of character or plot they see everything in black and white. when the truth is so much more complicated. these characters aren’t monsters or angels. they’re flawed humans. thats what makes this series so great. but hardly anyone truly appreciates that. asoiaf is wasted on this entire fandom.

#the fandom is just as guilty of gutting asoiaf as d&d #i know i bring this up again and again #and its not like im convincing anyone who doesnt already know lol #just think of how crazy im gonna be when this actually goes down in twow #and they all continue to deny it #asoiaf nonsense

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worldofcloti · 7 years

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Long meta of Anon regarding Cloud, Tifa and Aerith [LTD]

Re-arranged it in order since this since the anon asks have the first one in the bottom of my inbox. Also separated the paragraphs. I have an answer under the cut as well.

Anonymous said to worldofcloti: May I say something since we’re somewhat on the topic of ltd and fandoms? Prefacing this saying I’m definitely a Cloti fan and only a CT fan but I don’t deny Klerith (I think that’s how we’re referring to them here), at least not my version of them. In fact, I think they’re a necessary stop on the road of CLOTI’s relationship and helps bring them closer. Now this probably sounds cruel but please hear me out. I see Aerith as someone who has a very positive effect on every person she encounters(1)

This included Cloud, and Tifa, and the whole gang. In the beginning of the game Cloud is in a horrible mental state, we know that, he’s battling his demons. And Tifa can’t help him because she’s battling her own demons and she has an introverted personality. I think that’s where it’s necessary for Aerith to come in and help them. Both. She brings lightness to them. Helps guide them towards the light, fun, positivity, which they couldn’t do by themselves. And while it’s ultimately Tifa who (2) heals his mind, and could only be Tifa because of their past, imo Aerith pushed them towards this AND I also headcanon that she also gave them a push in the lifestream. Her character and actions also had an effect on Tifa helping her realize her feelings and to become more active in pursuing what she wants. I also think both of them loved Aerith albeit differently, but I don’t think that Cloud was IN love with her. It just did not happen in the game that I played.

I know everyone has their (3) playthrough and this was mine, there were no straight romantic Klerith scenes in my game but I think they had positive feelings towards each other. I think she will always be in his heart but not as this one true love. Cause even if she were alive I still don’t see how after regaining his self the boy from Nibelheim who did so much for Tifa for years, and Tifa who had feelings for him for years and then did so much for him would not end up together. But this is my interpretation. And I have (4) no problem with others having another. My only problem is with the version where a 21yo Cloud must live the rest of his life alone waiting for death to reunite with the girl he supposedly loved, I have aversion to this strictly as a Cloud fan cause I find this incredibly cruel and selfish of fans, wanting for Aerith to be allowed to move on from Zack, but not giving same courtesy to Cloud. Tiduna and Noctluna are often mentioned as examples to strengthen this theory but I strongly disagree. (5)

Yuna and Tidus only had each other as romantic partners. And while Yuna did wait 2 years she was too busy during that time to think of romance, and X-2 shows that she was ready to move on, one of the endings even has her moving on, and as much of a Tiduna fan as I am, if Tidus never came back I would never wish for a 19yo girl to wait for him forever. Noctluna, well, is one of the weakest FF romances tbh, not a good thing to be compared to, but even here we have both of them dying almost at (6) the same time. Yes, there’s 10 year time skip but he hasn’t lived that, he lived very little time without her. And both these examples have one huge factor not considered for some reason: TIFA.

None of these pairs had a third person for whom protagonist had canonical reciprocated feelings for for years (whether he still has those or not are maybe up to interpretation but still important point) so the comparison falls moot for me. Not to mention if we parallel Tidus and Luna with Aerith for (7) their death, we can also parallel them with Tifa, e.g. for childhood feelings lasting for years. I might also mention my problem with compilation and AC. While for me it solidifies Cloti 100%, I still don’t like how it does it. I’m against the fact that Aerith of all people was used as a character whose memory brings depression to Cloud, to Tifa, children they’re raising. I think it’s a disservice to her and a cheap trick by SE in an attempt to bring her back and fan service her/Klerith fans.(8)

Especially since in OG her smile was used as a motivation in before battle speech (where, btw, Tifa was the one who showed bigger understanding of her character). So I don’t see how or why use AC as a romantic evidence when Aerith is used for such negative effect on Cloud. This came out huge omg I’m so sorry. But anyway I wanted to talk about how I don’t fully deny Klerith even as a Cloti fan, but how my view of it differs from their fans, & I’m fine with everything except that one scenario. (9)

You brought up a lot of points and thanks for sharing them to us. At first, I’d like to say that I am limited to what I can say since this blog is strictly pro-Cloti and not about debunking Klerith evidence. Although, I unapologetic-ally rant about bad treatment of characters in the fandom.

> I agree a lot on positive feelings. Aerith may have had a troubled childhood but she has become a well-adjusted adult, contrary to Tifa and Cloud with serious trauma and haven’t recovered from them [in Cloud’s case, it’s a full false persona]. Aerith is someone that added fun to the party, and she is the one excited to get out of Midgar and have an adventure. On the LTD side, I think Tifa would have waited for a longer time to make a move on Cloud without Aerith around, she definitely was a competition to Tifa.

> Aerith helping Cloud and Tifa in the Lifestream is in the short story Maiden Who Travels the Planet. I think it’s canon, although a secondary source rather than a main entry.

> I agree that Tifa is the end game love interest, although I would say she doesn’t have an explicitly romantic scene either. On Aerith, as much as Cloud grieved for her, I don’t think they became intimate.

> Parallels are generally a weak proof and more of just cuteness. I am limited to the rebuttal I can say in this blog but I hate if characters are misrepresented. Yuna moved on as early as FFX, especially with her speech about rebuilding Spira, having new homes, but never forgetting those who were lost. Just because she grieves for Tidus in FFX-2 it doesn’t mean she has no intention of loving again. I would also say that any couple compared to Noktluna is being insulted, because it is one of the worst written romances I have seen in a video game. While I dislike interpreting the story based on guidebook quotes, Square Enix is has actually been explicit in some parallels with FF romances in the Cloti side as well: http://danseru-kun.tumblr.com/post/40338671251/cloud-and-tifas-feelings-for-each-other. You can search other “fanservice” tagged posts in this blog.

> I like your thoughts on what Aerith represents and AC being about grieving for her, but personally I see it as a natural emotional process. Cloud was not only upset because of Aerith, but also because of Zack and Denzel. Cloud is a mentally weak person and suffering some serious trauma and guilt for his past failures. Despite hitting a low point, I love how Cloud found strength in AC through the help of his friends, both the living and the departed. It ended on a very positive note for all characters involved. This is why I hate interpretations of AC as romance.

You might like my meta on Aerith here: http://danseru-kun.tumblr.com/post/141774984234/aeriths-journey-to-the-promised-land

#ltd #cloti #klerith #cloud strife #tifa lockhart #meta

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