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delphadae · 1 month

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Ramblings about my faith, deconstruction, reconstruction

For some reason, I feel like rambling about this topic. I'll put it under a "Read More" line, because I know talks of religion is not everyone's cup of tea (Especially since the blog is mostly catered to silly things that makes me happy <3 ).

Ever since I vaguely understood what religion/beliefs/concept of God was, I was a believer. I believed in God (I imagined Him as a giant star in Heaven that could only be reached by a big spiraling set of stairs). I enjoyed going to church (which is weird, because most kids seem to find church boring). The weird thing that sticks out to me when I reminisce on my beliefs as a child is this: For the most part, I didn't see God as judgmental or wrathful. The only bible stories that really stuck in my brain were ones such as "The Good Samaritan" , "Feeding of the 5000", "The Lost Sheep Parable" (and of course, things like Jesus's birth, Jonah, etc.. But the ones that I really kept in my heart were ones that were about compassion, love, etc"). I didn't grow up in a strict Christian household (and even though we believed/were taught the Bible, it wasn't the very center of our lives).

I didn't truly learn/understand the meaning behind concepts of Hell, judgement, wrath, etc until I became a teenager. An old friend from middle school invited me to their youth group (which was located in a small, legalistic Baptist church). After attending for a brief period of time, I didn't return until I was 14 (10th grade). At the time, I reconnected with an old friend via Facebook (who invited me to another youth group lol), and there was a lot of turmoil going on in my family...So I gravitated back to church (the evangelical kind).

Between the ages of 14 to 20, I was a "super Christian/Jesus freak". I was constantly worrying about my friends' salvation, and trying to muster up courage to evangelize. My non-Christian friends were initially confused by my sudden interest in God and Jesus, but thankfully they still stuck around (Sorry if things were awkward back then ^^;; ). I fully believed that if you didn't pray "the sinner's prayer", that you would go to Hell. I believed in the Rapture/end-times told in a very specific interpretation of Revelations. I was confused about topics like lgbtqia+ rights (because the church told me that "it was wrong", but despite my strong beliefs, I really struggled with believing in that), and evolution (unfortunately, I was among the young-earth/creationist crowd lol I am NOT a YEC). I believed that m*sturbation was a sin, and I CONSTANTLY journaled/prayed to God about it, asking Him to forgive me (Which is so sad...Because it's a natural and normal thing!)

In 2011, I also really struggled with depression, s*icidal thoughts, and thoughts of s*lf harm (due to family circumstances and loneliness). At the time, I fully believed that it was Satan tempting me to harm myself and the "seed of unforgiveness for my dad" causing this depression. I was fully entrenched in the idea of spiritual warfare. (I don't necessarily NOT believe it now..but looking back on this situation, I was a teenager struggling with my parents' separation/failing marriage, self esteem issues, and typical teenage stuff. Mental illness also runs in my family, and this was the beginning of the more serious aspects of that :/ I was not in therapy to help navigate this incredibly difficult time, and i struggled with handling my emotions too. It was basically disaster in a picnic basket ).

The first seeds of deconstruction were sown during my second/third year of college. I developed a crush on a non-Christian, and we started dating -gasp-. At the time, I believed that Christians should only date other Christians, and me "succumbing to my temptations" had me believe that my faith/beliefs weren't as strong as I thought. Throughout the rest of college (excluding last semester), I wrestled with guilt, shame, and slowly began my deconstruction of faith. Eventually, this relationship ended, and after a brief/sudden end to a budding relationship at the end of my last semester, I decided to start attending church with a family I was friends with (They are now my in-laws lol). I was hoping to rekindle the spark that I once had during my teenage years, but it never came.

Eventually, I married my best friend. <3 He grew up in a conservative/evangelical Christian household, and his faith is very important to him. Honestly, if it wasn't for him, I would've abandoned my faith long ago.. However, he also encouraged me to explore different aspects of Christian faith rather than abandoning it altogether. So that is what I did.

Within the last 2 years, I start deconstructing hardcore. It was incredibly painful and confusing... At times, I doubted whether or not I really wanted to call myself a Christian.. along with my own personal struggles of belief, I hated how the church treated the lgbtqia+ community, how the church treated the pandemic, how many churches worshipped Trump and conservative politics (I haven't read it yet, but there is a book called Jesus and John Wayne. It's about how conservatism and evangelical/fundamentalist Christianity became one in The United States. Their history is interwoven and influence each other). I learned over time that not all churches are like this (such as Episcopal churches and certain branches of Methodist churches). However, I felt (and still feel) very isolated and alone in the Christian community I'm apart of. My convictions and view towards certain topics (both political and religious) grow more apart from evangelism than ever before.

During my deconstruction, I delved into two different aspects of Christianity that I never did before.. Christian witchcraft/Christian mysticism, and Catholicism/Catholic folk magic. I haven't developed an actual habit of practicing either of those things longterm, but I'm still thankful for doing so. They both have a connection to eachother.

I've always been interested in witchcraft and magic. Magic has been part of my childhood for as long as I can remember (Thankfully, my parents weren't those Christians that banned Harry Potter, Pokemon, Dragon Tales, etc in the house. They allowed my siblings and I's imaginations to grow and develop freely.. I am eternally grateful for that!). During the height of my deconstruction, one of my very close friends started to openly practice witchcraft (She calls herself Wiccan, which..I know there are negative associations with Wiccanism. However, this is not the blog post to discuss that!). She would invite us to holidays that were in the Wheel of the Year (Samhein, Yule, Ostara, etc). My friend and my mom's neighbor (who is also a witch and does magic), opened the doors to witchcraft. I was exposed to their spells, crystals, various deities and rituals. It was/is honestly fascinating and a breath of fresh air to me.

In the Christian spaces I was a part of, magic, paganism, witchcraft, etc was a huge NO NO. The families and teenagers that I would interact with at youth group often had a negative reaction to anything remotely magical (I remember being baffled that people in youth group never watched Harry Potter lol. I know HP and JK Rowling has its own issues, but that is a completely separate topic. ). To this day, my mother-in-law (who I love dearly), hates Halloween and refuses to watch anything with magic in it. Needless to say, when I first discovered Christian witchcraft/mysticism, I had to keep myself "in the broom closet" (Even to my own husband.. However, I may finally spill the beans to him by sharing this blog post to him lol).

As I did research on Christian witchcraft, I learned that a lot of rituals and practices within the Catholic Church and early Christianity fall in this category (whether or not Catholics will admit/agree to this is a whole different issue lol). I learned that witchcraft is simply that - a CRAFT. You can be a Christian witch, a Jewish witch, a Muslim witch, even an atheist witch! (Of course, there is more nuance and such, but this blog post is long enough as it is...And I can't personally speak for other religions and witchcraft...just my own). Two HUGE inspirations/guidance that I've gotten from this topic is Sara Ratzresen and Chaotic Witch Aunt. (Sara is a Christian Witch and author/writer. Chaotic Witch Aunt/Frankie is a folk witch and practitioner of Italian-American folk magic). They have their own Youtube channels (click their names on this post to be redirected there).

I've dabbled in magic on and off for the past 2 years, but I haven't been able to form a habit of it (yet). My magic rituals mostly take form in mundane tasks (such as cleaning/cleansing the apartment, cooking, etc). I was doing tarot readings every morning for awhile, and I LOVED IT. I used Tarot as a way to talk to God, and also for self-reflection. I currently have two tarot decks: The Modern Witch Tarot Deck (Which I LOOOVEE. However, I don't use the booklet that comes with it.. Instead I use sites like Biddy Tarot to help me interpret readings). I also have a "Kawaii Deck", but I haven't been able to connect with it yet, and I'm convinced that it either hates me or that it likes to be very mean lol. I really need to start doing Tarot again. :(

Delving into Christian witchcraft eventually led me into learning/starting ancestral work/veneration...Which led into some Catholic practices. (mainly praying the rosary and attempting to do a novena lol). My mom's side of the family/my Portuguese ancestry is steeped in Catholicism. My vovou/grandma was a devout Catholic. Despite my mom denouncing Catholicism after Vovou passed away, she still kept certain aspects of her previous faith (such as having a statue of Lady Fatima in her bedroom, lighting candles before praying, etc...Those things always stuck with me). Even though I don't ever plan on becoming Catholic (due to doctrinal, political, and historical issues with the Catholic church), I want to start going to Mass someday (still haven't done that yet... ._.;;).

My mom's side of the family is almost a complete mystery to me. By delving into my Catholic roots, I hope(d) to find a connection with my Portuguese roots. I have made a small altar for my Vovou a few times (made coffee for her, played traditional Portuguese fado music, attempted to pray the rosary in Portuguese, etc. I did feel her presence, in the tiniest of ways.. It's hard to explain). Unfortunately, I've also fallen out of this practice, but I hope to bring it back up soon x.x

I actually have a separate tumblr blog for Christian witchcraft, Portuguese stuff, etc! --> https://raphaela-a-bruxa.tumblr.com/ (Note: I'M STILL IN THE BROOM CLOSET. So please respect my privacy in that space).

So what are my beliefs currently? Well...

I still believe in God and Jesus, saints, angels, etc.

The Bible IS NOT infallible (many books spanning 1000's of years and translated many times since then...I could go MUCH further into this topic, but I don't want to in this blog post).

The Earth is not 6000 years old

The Rapture is not going to happen and Revelations is a book made within the historical context of its time

Not sure my exact thought on Hell and still deconstructing that, but I guess I fall on the realm of "Jesus died for us, and that is EVERYONE. not just those who pray a "sinner's prayer". You can be the most anti-Jesus person ever, and you still won't go to Hell.

I'm not sure how I feel about the really shitty things in the Bible (death, g*nocide, etc..). My only explanation thus far is that the Bible was written by humans, and was influenced by the people/culture/politics of its time (which goes back to the point of "the bible isnt infallible").

God can show Himself in many different avenues (whether different religions, beliefs, experiences, etc)

Magic and Christianity can coexist (along with other religions)

No matter how confused I feel about my beliefs at time, my main belief/priority is to love others as Jesus does, advocate for the oppressed and poor, and make the world a better place.

Science should be trusted, and believing in science is not anti-christian (or anti-religion. Honestly, I view them as completely seperate).

There a lot of unanswered questions that I still have. And my beliefs are evolving. But despite my doubts, I'm happy and proud that I'm allowing myself to explore different beliefs and thoughts. we aren't meant to stay stagnant, and that definitely applies to our beliefs too. We must think critically of them too.

If you made it this far, Thank you so much for reading!!! ;__;

If you're going to comment or message me something mean, negative, and/or in the realm of "YOU'RE GOING TO HELL!" "The bible is the ONLY way!!" (or some other evangelical/fundie response to deconstruction posts), I'm deleting it and blocking you. (I'm not using my energy to deal with people like you. :) )

#my beliefs #christianity #deconstruction

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theatretrust · 2 years

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sassy-socialist-sunday-school · 4 years

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About this Blog

Hey there. I have had an idea for a long time, and it has only strengthened with time, that Christianity and religion more generally are a lot more socialist and forward thinking than many might suppose from the way their followers act. This is not to say that there are not outdated or problematic ideas within them, just that the piece of advice given by conservative religious figures to read your (insert holy book here) might not be the worst idea. As someone who was raised a Christian, educated in Christianity and still counts themself as a Christian I thought Christianity would be the place to start.

A bit of background on me. I am in my late 20s at the time of writing. I was born in Scotland and have lived there my whole life. I was raised in a Church of Scotland attending household, was baptized and attended till I was 11 or so. When I was 12 I started attending an evangelical church that started in my local town and throughout my teens was a creationist reasonably conservative Christian, though still questioning luckily. During these years I studied the bible hard and read it through multiple times. I listened to Christian rock music (and honestly still do, some of it is quite good, though a lot of what I listened to as a teen was not, but who can’t say that about their taste as a teenager), I helped at missions, I went to Christian summer camps, I was batized for a second time (this time by my own choice). I held a lot of beliefs that were sending me down a dangerous path. For example, my church homophobic. Not in the we should kill them all way, but in that condescending christian manner of love the sinner hate the sin, while they would commit a laundry list of other things listed as sin without really batting an eyelid. At the time I rationalized it. I knew gay people, they were in my class at school, I was good friends with one. They were just sinners like everyone else and just as deserving of Jesus’s forgivesness, but letting them get married, no way. This all really started to become a problem for me on a philosophical level when a friend of mine from church came out as gay. No one was actively hostile, but there was this sense of unease, of judgement. It didn’t sit right with me. It didn’t fully change my perspective until I felt that same judgement on me. This time it was over my playing Dungeons and Dragons of all things (Yes I am a nerd). They thought it was witchcraft and idolatry. I knew for a fact I was just playing make believe the way I always had, just this time with my friends. It took one of my church leaders recoiling from a copy of the 4th edition Player’s Handbook like Dracula from the cross to make me realise how ridiculous this was. And I understood. For me it was over a hobby, but for my friend it was who they were that was being rejected. Both of us were still tolerated as kicking us out would show up the church for what they were, but I can only imagine what they said to him based on what they said to my D&D group. “You can keep playing but don’t spread it to other members of the church”. Long story short I realised how close minded the church I went to was at long last. This made me question everything again, this time more closely. I didn’t lose my faith, but over the next few years I stopped believing in any kind of literal reading of the first few chapters of Genesis, I stopped going to church, I stopped having all of the really harmful ideas about my morality that had consumed me in my teenage years and filled me with self hatred. When I attended Uni to study Archaeology and Celtic Studies I learned about the strengths and weaknesses of ancient texts, especially ones coming from oral traditions. I learned a lot in uni and became much healthier and happier. I made lots of friends, read lots of books, fell in love, played lots of D&D and had lots of really good conversations. After uni I got a job in my field and got engaged, and theology took a bit of a backseat as I was busy working long hours of manual labour digging up castles and the like. A year into working I injured my back and had to change career. a few months later I got married. Within a year it had ended badly (Long story for another time, but if the person keeps trying to push getting engaged, marriage or having kids on you that is a red flag and you should have a good think about if the relationship is going where you want it to). I moved in with my parents, stayed there for a while then moved back out. My back injury which never fully healed got worse and I have spent most of the last year on extended sick leave. While already on the left for some time, during this period I shot sharply left. But I found my faith didn’t fit in that well in lefty circles, and I can see why, but I don’t think it has to be that way. Once again few people were actively hostile, but I felt that same judgement, real or imagined. This brings us to today. It is 5am ish, I wanted to go to sleep hours ago as I have things to do tomorrow but here I am creating a Tumblr page about how the bible can be socialist too. TLDR Raised Christian, jumped to the left, is making a blog instead of sleeping.

About this page My plan is to work through the bible, (I will use the King James version as I have been assured it is the most “accurate” to the original many times in my life and I have a love of ancient texts) and I will analyse each chapter and say which bits I would highlight, which bits I would keep and why, and which bits I think are problematic or are likely not the word of any God I would want to be associated with (Yes I know, heresy and all that. If you have a problem with people destroying the word of god take it up with Moses, he did break the literal words of God afterall and he seems to get a pass, I at least will be giving God the excuse of thousands of years of copying, being written down long after or people trying to justify themselves after they did something bad. You know, classic problems all ancient texts have from Plato to Beowulf). There may be chunks of the old testament I do in larger pieces simply because they are very dry and I won’t have that much new to say about the 5th time God tells Moses the exact measurements for his temple curtains (you think I am joking) but I will try and be thorough. I fully reserve the write to jump forward to when I have something interesting to say again or to whatever is of particular interest to me at the time. I may also cover other religions, philosophy or pop culture as and when I see something that catches my eye, but I will try and keep regular updates for our main progression though the Bible. I will always copy the full text I am studying at the start of the post and will give links to the online version I am using so you can check I am not changing anything it says prior to analysis. Also of note, Before making this page I looked up socialist sunday school briefly and there is a movement named this that from my brief read taught/teaches socialism to children in the UK. I am not associated with them but loved the name, hence why I will now try and be Sassy. I would have added student to the end of it as well, but I ran into Tumblr’s character limit for names. If you have any questions, or you wish to discuss a point with me feel free to post on my Questions and Counter Arguments section and I will try and answer, but no promises. If all you want to do is scream into the void I’d rather you did it on a mountaintop or something instead of doing it on my page, but I am sure someone will anyway.

I will try and get the first proper post up in the next few days. Till then everyone stay safe and get ready to have a crack at Genesis Chapter 1, there are obviously no problems here at all hahaha................

#first post #backstory

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automatismoateo · 2 years

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I got my coworker to really question her beliefs by talking about penises. via /r/atheism

I got my coworker to really question her beliefs by talking about penises.

I just won a discussion and I need to share that.

My coworker is a devout Muslim and creationist.

Disclaimer: We are Coworkers for more then a year by now. We know and respect each other. Both of us enjoy discussing our belief systems and we spend a lot of time in the breaks doing that. She tries to save my soul I try to deprogram her from an oppressive religion. This just that you have context about the following discussion. I am not that kind of person to make my workspace a toxic environment by just randomly throwing around my worldview and trying to force everyone to change their beliefs.

Now to the story: A few days ago she came into the office really tired. I asked her concerned what happened.

She explained that her baby nephew (she lives in the same household as her sister) was circumcised a few days ago. Now he is constantly crying. Especially when he is urinating into the diaper. This let's no one get a good night of rest.

(Off course urin does burn when it gets on fresh cuts. Especially if those cuts are inflicted by a religious leader without any medical training.)

So I asked her: Please explain to me why God designed Penises WITH a foreskin just to demand to mutilate them.

Her: But the circumcision is important for cleanliness.

I: The Quran contains so many rules for cleansing and washing. Adding another set of rules specifically for the correct washing routine of those body parts would not have been too much.

Her: The circumcision is made so that men don't play with their Penises.

I: Well I am circumcised myself and I can tell you that doesn't prevent anyone from jerking off. Today there are a lot of options but even thousands of years ago humans had access to oils for example. But most importantly there where obvious better options to accomplish that no masturbation rule.

Her: what do you suggest banning oil?

I: No Humans would still have saliva. That works as well. Did you ever have an itch between your shoulder blades and you could not reach it to scratch it? Why aren't human genitalia located there. That would prevent everyone from disobeying gods orders. Would also be somewhat effective in preventing Rape. The only drawback I can think of is that it would prevent eye contact during marital sex. But God is not really fond of people enjoying sex anyways. Other then that: what about if a penis only grows during a proper God approved marriage ceremony? That would have zero disadvantages. If I a mere mortal could think of two better ways to accomplish that goal. Certainly the all knowing creator would be able to come up with a solution even more amazing.

Her: But if the penis grows just during the wedding ceremony, then the ceremony would need to include the circumcision itself. That would totally ruin any plans for the first night.

I: You see and this is why I asked in the first place. Why would God, who created the human body in his perfect plan include a foreskin into the design if he knew it had to be cut off anyways. There is no reason why babies couldn't be born without ever having a foreskin. That is unnecessary work at best and unnecessary suffering at worst. Your baby nephew cries because of the pain and no one in your house gets to sleep. And all that could have been prevented so easily with zero downsides. Explain to me why any intelligent being would set things up specifically that way.

Her: You are right. That doesn't make any sense. I have to think about it.

The next day she came into the office and said: Maybe you where right about what you said last week: that God created the universe and started life but let everything develop on its own and this explains why so much in nature is not perfect.

So I got her from Young earth creationism - To accepting evolution as gods preferred tool.

That is a HUGE jump.

Submitted December 03, 2021 at 08:44AM by WirrkopfP (From Reddit https://ift.tt/3lxVmdb)

#reddit

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not-so-secret-nerd · 7 years

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Do you have a favorite line or set of lines you have ever written?

Holy shit, nonny. That’s like asking me who my favorite child is XD Thank god I have none!

Umm….okay recently (because I have quite a few I’m proud of actually) it would have to be from Tunnel Rats

All at once, this thing that looked more creature than human became more human than any of them in the room.

Aut-Magi:

These were the pyromancers. Their heritage was what one would expect from an element that both gave life and took it away. In ancient times, they were the swords, spears, slings, and shields of the Community, and they carried that heritage, that primal song, in their throats and in their dances through the millennia.

A pyromancer danced to the rhythm of war.

A pyromancer lived as their element dictated. Hard. Fast. Bright. Hot.

Ecto-high: (basically all of Erin’s encounter with her father gives me absolute life)

“You are a sad, bigoted, hateful little man without an original thought in his head. You proclaim to be so well versed in the realms of science yet refuse to wrap your head around proven facts, clinging to your beliefs like a creationist facing down Neil deGrasse Tyson. You are an old man stuck in the past, dragging those down around him, drowning everyone else so you can stay afloat in a sea where you are no longer the biggest shark. Your rigidity is causing you to break rather than bend, ensuring that, when you do die, you will die ignorant and alone with nary a soul to mourn your passing. I certainly won’t shed a tear, but I’m sure Mom will cry for posterities sake before resettling with a man who doesn’t possess the temper of a five-year-old with the vocabulary of a high school chemistry teacher and the personality of limp cardboard.

“Simply put, you are outdated, outclassed, outmatched, and outgunned, but please continue to belittle the only personal actively working to make the Gilbert name a household name while you polish trophies from your college years and pretend you’re relevant.”

#Anonymous

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matttowndrow · 6 years

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Talking to a Christian.

Stranger: hi

You: hi there

You: religious?

Stranger: yes

You: nice, what religion?

Stranger: christianity

You: protestant or catholic or?

Stranger: non-denominational for the most part

You: wow whats that exactly?

Stranger: i don't go to a particular church, i haven't found the one that truly clicks with me. although i do have an interest in catholicsm and orthodoxy

You: okay interesting

You: Im personally agnostic, just interested in religion and why people believe or don't believe etc

You: so my question to you is why do you think that christianity is the right religion?

Stranger: ahh thats cool. i can feel that lol

You: or in other words why are you christian and not another religion?

Stranger: well, i've had an interest with all sorts of religions, but in my opinion, christianity is one of the richest, both culturally and theologically; i don't necessarily think that christianity is the ONLY religion with "truth" because, as a rule, all religions or people who seek truth and goodness participate in christ

Stranger: but i feel like christianity is a full expression of it

Stranger: even though, i'll be the first to admit, a lot of christians make christianity look awful or childish lol

You: were you born in to religion ?

Stranger: reading about the history of the church and it's roots in judaic religions helped me appreciate the uniqueness, but also universality of christian belief

Stranger: i was raised in a vaguely protestant christian home

Stranger: not very observant, strictly, but still god was important to us

Stranger: still is, i should say

You: okay, nice, would you say perhaps that if you were born in iran you would be a muslim or do you think you would still be christian ?

You: and also how do you mean other religions participate in christ?

Stranger: it depends, if i had the ability to learn about christianity in an unbiased way, i think i would become one. especially since twelver shia is good at straining credulity lol

Stranger: well, christ is the logos, the universal reason that everything that exists was made through and within, any one who looks for truth and virtue will find the logos, even if they do not know of the person of jesus as he lived upon the earth, or the traditions handed down by him

You: so even if you're family were muslim for example you still believe you would convert to christianity?

Stranger: there's a saying from the gospel of thomas, which isn't considered canon by christians, but it still has some very correct things to say. one is "Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

Split a piece of wood; I am there.

Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

Stranger: yes, like i said, if i was able to learn about it. but it would be very difficult, considering islam makes it hard for anyone to convert to another religion. especially a theocracy like iran

You: okay what is your point by that though, that jesus is everything almost?

You: okay fair enough

You: I don't personally agree that you would but we'll never know I guess ahaha

You: don't agree*

Stranger: yeah, by the grace of god i was born into a country with religious freedom lol

Stranger: for better and worse, at times

You: so for people like myself who perhaps don't believe or are part of another religion

You: will they go to hell when they die

Stranger: alright, this is a very complex question, and there's many christians who will say i'm wrong, but this isn't an alien idea, or novelty, my understanding is similar to orthodox belief. there is no "hell" as in a pit of torture for non-christians and immoral christians. hell is a state of being (or non-being if you prefer). god doesn't send people to hell, they choose it for themselves by rejecting the truth; and truth is christ, whom, like i have said is the pre-existent universal logos. jesus says "i am the way, the truth and the life" and also "those who do not believe are already condemned". people think of hell as a fiery place, but the book of hebrews says "our god is a consuming fire", and the letter of john says "our god is love". so, hell itself is a person experiencing god, that is, his love, but they turned themselves away from it, so they feel it as pain

Stranger: being a non-christian doesn't mean you will "go to hell", no one knows who will. but if you choose evil over good, and lies over truth, just in general, you're not living in accordance with god's will and purpose, and so you're making yourself unlike god

Stranger: i dunno if i'm explaining it well, lol

You: yeah no I understand that

You: my philosophy teacher said a simiar thing about how some christians see "hell"

Stranger: mankind is made as the image and likeness of god, and our purpose is to mirror his glory, as christ said to the pharisees when they said he was claiming to be equal with god "isn't it in your scriptures, that you are all gods, sons of the most high?"

You: I don't fully understand what you mean by that last bit

Stranger: yeah, i definitely don't think you can go up into the sky and find "heaven" or under the earth and see a hell. that is a childish sort of view, in my opinion

Stranger: well, one very old idea in christianity is that our purpose to become "gods", st. athanasius, who lived in the 4th century said that we're like a piece of metal put into a furnace, it takes on all qualities of light and heat, but doesn't become "fire", that is what salvation is like, it's becoming a child of god and a brother of christ, we all share in his inheritance, which is all that the father has

You: okay, okay so what I dont personally like about christianity especially catholic christianity is this dogma of faith in which you can't ever question god or in particular the religion and its scripture.

You: also when you think of the bible, do you believe in things like creationism?

Stranger: catholic's enjoy making dogmata far more than they should. that's one thing i dislike. in orthodoxy they have less dogmatic opinions, but dogma are important to a degree, since they help separate truth from error, and there's been a lot of error spread that is contrary to what the traditions of the apostles say, which would make them against the words of christ

Stranger: no, i'm not a creationist

You: okay interesting

You: so what parts of the bible do you disagree with?

Stranger: i don't disagree with any of it. i just don't take everything in it as being a science or history textbook. thats not it's purpose

Stranger: st. augustine has a FANTASTIC quote on taking the bible literally

Stranger: lemme find it

You: so when the bible says god created the earth and the heavens in 6 days, thats not supposed to be taken literally?

Stranger: Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience.

Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking non-sense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn.

The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of the faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men.

If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason?

Reckless and incompetent expounders of holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although “they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion.”

Stranger: it's not a history book, it's purpose is to show that god is responsible for the world, and give a spiritual meaning behind it

Stranger: this is also from augustine, before the above passage

Stranger: In matters that are obscure and far beyond our vision, even in such as we may find treated in Holy Scripture, different Interpretations are sometimes possible without prejudice to the faith we have received. In such a case, we should not rush in headlong and so firmly take our stand on one side that, if further progress in the search of truth justly undermines this position, we too fall with it. That would be to battle not for the teaching of Holy Scripture but for our own, wishing its teaching to conform to ours, whereas we ought to wish ours to conform to that of Sacred Scripture.

Stranger: i'd like young earth creationists to read that bit lol

You: I might take sometime to read this give me a few minutes ahaha

Stranger: no problem, i bombarded you a bit lol

You: okay yeah I get that

You: so tell me how was the bible written ?

Stranger: by putting pen to paper :p

You: yeah i mean who wrote it

You: and did god tell them what to write or speak to them how did it happen

You: sorry im not familiar ahaha

Stranger: the old testament is a collection of books that were penned down and compiled by scribes in the kingdom of judah, and the new testament is mostly letters, and a couple of books written by early christians and were eventually collected together

Stranger: well the bible is not the quran, christians don't (or at least shouldn't) see it as being the literal words of god to some person who simply records the words

You: okay but how did they know this stuff?

You: did god speak to them

Stranger: the bible has an extremely complex history. some parts of it are sacred histories, some parts are collections of oracles spoken by prophets, and others are books that focus on a story or person. the old testament was born out of the priests of the temple, who served the god of israel

Stranger: and even then, a lot of the bible isn't written by a single person. but countless scribes who worked material together until it reached it's final form. there was never a book that fell out of the sky and told everyone what to do (unless you're a muslim lol)

Stranger: it's also wrong to think of the bible as a single book

Stranger: we tend to think of that since we have it in a book format, but that was only possible until around 1800 years ago

Stranger: before then, they were collections of scrolls used by the temple and synagogues

You: yeah okay thanks that makes more sense

You: but say they have all this knowledge about god and christianity and about the origins of the universe

You: why when you trace back to adam and eve was it only around 6 thousand years ago

You: when the earth supposedly began

You: when ofcourse we know that not to be true

Stranger: the bible itself never mentions how old the earth is, per se. the idea of the earth being 7 thousandish years old is something people have done by counting genealogies and ages. but it's irrelevant, since the purpose of adam and eve is to show that humans are the image of god. but we've become separated from him through sin. it doesn't matter how it happened in a literal, physical sense, because in a way, we're all adam, because in our daily lives we choose to do bad, rather than good

Stranger: some church fathers even said that if adam never sinned, christ would've still been born into the flesh

Stranger: so the literal sense of what happened isn't very important, because it's message is a spiritual one. not a biological one

Stranger: and thats hard for us, since we value "objectivity"

Stranger: when there's multiple meanings behind something, for many, it lessens it's truthfulnes

You: do you not find it strange that previously though only a few hundred years ago they believed that to be true and with new scientifical knowledge christians change there mind and say its not meant to be taken literally or it was only a message

You: when previously that was the religion and all it stood for

You: not all it stood for sorry

Stranger: many people believed it to be true, but most people aren't very learned. even in the medieval era most educated christians knew the earth was spherical, when the church objected to marco polo's journey to india, it wasn't because they thought he'd fall off the end of the world, it's because they thought he was a fool and would get himself killed

Stranger: if christ is the logos, and christians believe he is, nothing discovered by science, by it's definition can conflict with it, since all reason is ultimately from the logos

Stranger: we only have to adjust our opinions on certain things

You: sorry what is the logos?

Stranger: the scriptures never say that you have to believe that the flood literally covered the earth, etc

Stranger: the logos is a greek word for the fundamental principle that undergirds everything in existence. nothing is apart from it. it's usually translated as "word" but it's sense is broader than that

Stranger: it also means "reason, discourse" so on

Stranger: it's also important to not mistake scientific theories for reality. i'm not rejecting science, but science is not a fool proof concept that is unassailable. it's a process for learning about the universe's laws and interactions

You: but so you're saying because christ is the logos, you can't conflict science with christianity

You: because he is the fundamental principle that undergirds everything in existence you can't question it

You: why was nothing written in either the new or old testament about the big bang ?

You: or evolution ?

You: god created man

Stranger: because those are theories we've come up with in the past 200 years. the man who came up with the big bang theory was a catholic priest. the bible was written in a time before we had our modern idea of "science", which isn't to say they were stupid, but it wasn't the purpose of their writing

Stranger: the purpose is sacral

Stranger: to illustrate a spiritual reality, which, by it's nature is immaterial, something science cannot speak of, since for something to be scientific it must be subject to testability

You: but surely god didn't create man

You: because man evolved

You: we certainly know this to be true

You: there is too much evidence to support it

Stranger: again, this sort of idea doesn't sit well with the modern mind, since we want clear-cut facts and logic

Stranger: of course, but everything was created through the will of god

You: it's almost like your moulding your reasoning around it all though

You: okay another question why were we around for almost 40,000 years and only 38,000 years later did god decide to speak to us then

You: I think that we are simply intelligent beings with a want for something more than ourselves

Stranger: well, anatomically modern humans have been around for about 150,000 years or so. and god is always speaking to us, even neanderthals buried their dead and had some seemed to be a religious spirit. when you look at humans religion is hardwired into us, when you look at cave paintings, they are not simple representations, but they're an attempt for humans to transcend every day experience

You: okay so why is christianity the only right religion then

You: if you believe its hard wired in to us why is it not just a need for something bigger than ourselves

You: why aren't we just scared to die and there be nothing else afterwards

Stranger: it's not the "only right" it's the fullness of truth, since the church has borne witness to god becoming man, and making man into god

Stranger: well, saying there is nothing is just as much as an assertion as saying there's something. we cannot know scientifically speaking. how does one test that? lol

You: no I think maybe there is something higher than me

Stranger: not to mention the importance the dead have had for humans throughout all of history. it's not merely a vain hope, always. people didn't have any trouble thinking about the dead returning to interact with the living in various ways

You: but I don't think its christianity or any other religion for that matter

Stranger: and thats okay, i don't think any one should force themselves to believe something if it conflicts with their reason or conscience

You: yeah I know sorry im not trying to force my beliefs on you

You: or anything

You: just very curious about it all

Stranger: no worries, i know you're not, i'm not either

You: like stuff about homosexuals for example

You: do you agree with that or ?

Stranger: agree with them how

You: as in its a sin to be homosexual

Stranger: i don't think it's a sin to be homosexual, but i do believe that homosexuality is a misuse of our bodies and isn't a part of the natural order god intends. so having sex with a member of your own sex is a "sin" a missing of the mark, that mark being proper order and goodness

You: okay so essentially it is a sin, and I get that because yeah it would make sense especially if it says it in the bible, I mean I don't agree with it but yeah

Stranger: the act is a sin, but the inclination to it itself isn't one. everyone has a temptation towards misusing the things god provides us, whether it's sex, emotions, strength, etc. there's always a way to turn a good into a bad, or disordered thing

You: I think that in modern times we have moved on for secular reasons, for example we've abolished slavery (something that the bible condoned) , we now give equal rights to woman and the vote etc and I think thats nothing to do with scripture that's actually come about in spite of the bible and then people go back to the bible and say oh we'll leave out that bit, and cherry pick parts that suit their own moral code

Stranger: the bible never condones slavery. slavery was a fact of life for most of human history. and the people who championed anti-slavery were christians almost always

Stranger: slavery was essential for most ancient economies in various ways

Stranger: something like 20% of the roman empire were slaves in the imperial era

You: doesn't make it wrong though

You: doesn't make it okay though sorry ahaha

Stranger: LOL

Stranger: you wanna know one of my favorite odd laws from deuteronomy is

You: sure

Stranger: if two men are fighting and the wife of one of the women grabs one of the men's testicles to stop them from fighting, her hand has to be chopped off

Stranger: i always wondered when that situation would arise lol

You: yeah I have heard that one ahaha

You: I mean is that technically a rule by god

You: is that what its saying

Stranger: it's part of the law handed to moses

Stranger: according to deuteronomy

You: do you never just look at it all though and just think about how outdated it all is and thats all there is to the christian faith

You: is a 2700 year old book

Stranger: not really. i think modernism is self-destructive

You: that has a lot of errors and contradictions in it

Stranger: like what?

You: I mean I don't know exactly what ones but there are lots all you have to do is look them up

Stranger: and most of them are irrelevant to the truth of christ

Stranger: such as how many animals god ordered moses to put on the ark

You: for a holy book to have contradictions and errors in, surely thats not ideal though

You: I don't know

Stranger: as i have said, the bible isn't a history or physics text book. and it was compiled from various sacred writings by priests and scribes. it's not the particulars that effect it, because it's purpose is to be a witness and testament to the person of christ, and even then, most apparent contradictions have simple explanations. like the two different genealogies of jesus given in matthew and luke

You: I understand that its man made and therefore it does have errors and contradiction and even plagiarism if I'm correct

Stranger: plagiarism is a modern idea lol

You: and therefore I just think there is nothing divine about it and the apeal to saying I can trump anything you say because heres gods word on the page is a contemptible way of arguing

You: what do you mean its a modern Idea

You: copying something

Stranger: no one in the ancient world had the same concept of plagiarism as we understand it. the author as a creator of a mental world or ideas was a non-existent, all that mattered was the authority of the knowledge they used

You: earlier you said you were interested in catholicism

You: why is that

Stranger: i'm a big fan of tradition, and my father's family was catholic, i even got a nice collection of saints in my family tree lol. but i can't stand how catholicism is trying to modernize itself and francis makes me wanna puke

You: what sort of traditions?

Stranger: just tradition in general, the fact that catholicism doesn't ignore christianity after the last books of the NT were written, like some protestants do

You: what do you mean by that

You: they don't ignore the history of christianity ?

Stranger: well, a lot of protestants, due to the reformation, reject most writings from the early church that aren't considered canon proper, so if anything isn't explicitly in the bible, it must be a pagan innovation that sneaked into the church. for instance, ignatius of antioch who was a student of the apostle john uses the phrase "catholic church" and teaches about the hierarchy

You: ah okay

Stranger: but, i'm not as big of a fan of catholicism compared to orthodoxy, since catholicism has had some "developments" that aren't necessarily rooted in early christianity, but at the same time, there's decent arguments for certain catholic dogma that the orthodox don't share

Stranger: you have to remember that they were the same church, officially until 1054

You: have you seen the debate on is the catholic church a force for good in the world ?

Stranger: hmm, i don't think i have

You: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZRcYaAYWg4

You: give it a watch sometimes

You: its very long

You: anywho It was lovely speaking to you

You: my brain is so dead now, im so tired ahaha, had so many other points to make and ive forgotten them all

You: but oh well

Stranger: no worries, i feel that way all the time :p

Stranger: it was a great convo

You: yeah was very interesting

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