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aipilosse · 1 year

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I've seen people say Maedhros doesn't get any characterization, which is understandable. But I really do think people minimise or underestimate the amount of information we get about him through the texts? I think we get fairly enough to establish a good impression of what he must be like, from passages scattered throughout the works, rather than a few descriptive adjectives that a few other characters get. I want to write more about this in detail, but I would like to know what you think about the whole characterization debate since I disagree that he doesn't get enough. I think he gets much more characterization than both Finrod and Fingon, with the former getting much narrative focus rather than characterization and the latter getting neither.

Anon, I was just recently thinking about people minimizing or underestimating the amount of information we get in the texts in general so this ask came at the perfect time!

...but I don't think saying that Maedhros doesn't get any characterization is an understandable statement at all, actually. So I guess, yes, I totally agree with you that there's clear traits we can get from the Silmarillion. I also agree that he gets more than Fingon, who suffers a bit I think from having inconsistent explicit and implicit characterization in the Silmarillion. For instance, we're told:

No oaths [Galadriel] swore, but the words of Fëanor concerning Middle-earth had kindled in her heart, for she yearned to see the wide unguarded lands and to rule there a realm at her own will. Of like mind with Galadriel was Fingon Fingolfin’s son, being moved also by Fëanor’s words, though he loved him little.

Fingon yearns to rule a realm at his own will, really? I would argue we then see little political maneuvering on his part and he spends the rest of the story playing the role of the heroic prince -- bold and eager for battle, but with no indication he would prefer to be king. This is made even more obvious when you consider that his younger brother *does* go off to rule a realm at his own will. You could explain this by saying the journey across the Helcaraxe squashed any desire to rule on Fingon's part if you wanted to, but I suspect this is rather an inconsistency likely borne out of the evolution of Fingolfin and Fingon into separate characters.

Honestly, we don't really see Galadriel acting on this desire to rule a realm at her own will until the Second Age, but in her case that can be explained by the patriarchal society she's in.

Anyway, back to Maedhros and Finrod! I think Maedhros may get more explicit characterization; there's the notable line, "for since his torment upon Thangorodrim his spirit burned like a white fire within, and he was as one that returns from the dead," and several others referring to his fiery spirit and vigilance against Morgoth. But I do think that due simply to being the central character in several more storylines, Finrod might have more overall characterization? But I just realized I’m definitely including the Athrabeth and the Lay in that calculation, and I’m a lot less sure without those works. But he still has plenty of characterization in the Silm! Founding Nargothrond, finding the Edain, throwing his crown on the ground, killing a werewolf with his teeth and bare hands -- the narrator isn’t saying “Finrod was ambitious and curious, and saw himself as a man of honor” but that’s what his actions say.

For either Maedhros or Finrod, anyone who says there's little or no characterization we can draw from the Silmarillion is talking out their ass tbqh. They have plenty of agency and 'screen time' as it were, unlike characters like Amrod and Amras, and don't suffer from conflicting characterization like Fingon.

Which brings me to a larger observation I suppose; I see the idea that 'we just don't have any details' about characters floated pretty often. Not only is this not true for many characters, but I've seen this used as a reason why female characters aren't written about, which is such a threadbare excuse? If you're not interested in a character there's no shame, but I would say Aredhel, Morwen, Nienor, Galadriel, Idril, and Elwing all have the same amount or more characterization as Maglor yet he’s far more of a focus of the fandom than any of them. Again, this isn’t to shame anyone into liking female characters (a very ineffective strategy even if that were my goal!) but just to say, hey, be honest about why you like the characters you do.

I had this whole thing written up about why people would even say we don’t have any details or why fandom acts like the Silmarillion is this dense unknowable book from which hardly anything can be derived, but it got out of hand and really my own annoyance with this phenomenon is a mix of very real observations about how hard it can be to talk about things with people steeped in fanon (like I literally will have no idea what’s going on sometimes just because I don’t know where every single Feanorian is at all times according to agreed upon fanon), how there’s this deep history of misogyny in fanon that influences how people talk about characters to this day, how this layer of false complexity deters even knowledgeable people from talking about the stuff they’re interested in, and then there’s my petty, bitchy self who’s annoyed because there’s a lot of works out there I don’t like and don’t understand because it seems to me counter to the material I am actually a fan of, which. The fact that fandom does not cater to the likes and dislikes of one Aipilosse is not a real problem lol!

I think I’ll just say that this pseudo-reality where there’s tons of people who *insist* we can’t know a thing that we can very much at least draw reasonable conclusions on isn’t a good thing, no more than insisting that there’s only one way to interpret a thing and if you don’t you’re a bad fan is a good thing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

#thank you for the ask!#I tried to keep this on the rails #but don't know if I succeeded #maedhros #fingon #finrod #the question of whether Maedhros or Finrod has a more clear characterization in the silm is actually very interesting #oh there's more here about how what's agreed upon as canon is not actually canon and how incredibly alienating that can be #but it's really tangential #maybe I'll add more later...#or write a second post

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radiance1 · 10 months

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Hey ya'll back on my bullshit again!

So this time if this idea doesn't get outta control it'll mostly be focusing on Danny and Bruce!!!

Danny is gonna be younger here by the by, maybe like 10.

So after being accidently hit by on of his parents inventions, big ol' Danny-o sometimes gets these dreams about some random ass old man. He doesn't know who he is, nor why this is happening, but he mostly just goes along with it.

Most of the time they just spend the time there in silence, not really doing anything and just existing around each other until one day Danny let slip that he fights people on the regular.

Most of them being other people in a dream, who he assumes are ghosts. He manages to hold his own decently well, even without powers of his own.

Plus, he can even take his parents stuff into the dreams!

Sure he sometimes loses, but that's really not the point here.

but the man does not like it.

Danny doesn't get it, considering he can kick ass, take names, and it is just a dream after all.

So imagine his surprise when that old man, who he's known for a while and dare he say can perhaps even be called a friend, takes a fighting stance and tells him to come at him.

He asked if the guy was sure, the guy nodded, he told him not to regret anything when he gets his ass handed to him, the guy said nothing and motioned for him to attack and Danny went for it.

Not even a few moments later and he's insanely embarrassed he got his ass handed to him. Like, it was over before he even began and Danny didn't even know what happened.

So of course, being who he is and knowing this guy for a while. He very obviously asks the guy to teach him his ways and he must be insanely charming because the guy didn't even hesitate to say yes!

It was like, a few more dreams in that he finally asked for the guy's name. He said his name was Bruce, and that he was traveling the world and learning every martial art currently still existing.

Danny instantly grew to like him more after that. Sure, his mom's a blackbelt, and sure she taught him to kick major ass before she got dragged into her inventions, and sure she doesn't train with him or spend time with him anymore because of that-

Wait he's rambling.

Anyways.

So the guy asked him if he was taught martial arts, since he does have a pretty solid foundation. Danny said yes and then talked about his mom, because anytime to gush about how much of a badass she is, is one he's gonna take.

Somewhere along that rant it turned into a rant about his parents, and then their inventions, and then it turned into his sister and then it turned towards the ghosts he fights and how he beats them up really well and how his parents inventions really helps and then it turned towards that one time he got hit by one of his parents inventions which is why all these people appear in these dreams-

Bruce motions for him to stop, and then asks what Danny means by being hit by one of his parents inventions.

Danny stops, then gets real sheepish about it. Because really, it was kinda technically his fault that he got hit since he did sneak into his parents lab while they were out and accidently messed with something unfinished.

Bruce asked how Danny got into their lab. To which Danny said pretty easily since he already cracked the passcode for their 'secret' lab, and yea sure they didn't know that and sure he shouldn't really be in there in the first place without them knowing, but it's not like they know where he is most of the time.

Then Danny gets frustrated and say that they changed the passcode, so now he has to crack it again and he can't ask Jazz for help since she's too busy with school, but it's not like he really needs her help because he's plenty smart on his own but it would be nice-

Bruce doesn't say anything while Danny takes the conversation to an entirely different place than it started. His face only growing dark, as he quietly listened to Danny now going on about how to not fight a living jelly because they are vicious.

Which is another cause for concern, frankly.

Bruce has noticed that Danny has a tendency to just. Ramble about random things for hours if he isn't stopped, and is extremely surprised when Bruce actually listened whenever he stopped to take a breath.

He does wonder who exactly this boy's parents are however.

So then this keeps going on for a while, with Danny and Bruce either training martial arts or just talking (more so Danny rambling on about his day or anything really and Bruce just listening and commenting here or there.) and existing.

Then when Danny turned 11 he tells Bruce about how his parents got this huuuuuge mysterious donation that let them buy parts to make this super-mega-awesome invention of theirs that's supposed to be some kind of portal or something.

Which Danny is a bit jealous over because his parents are spending less and less time out of their lab, but that's besides the point.

Sometimes he also shows Bruce blueprints on things his parents worked on and then left unfinished because they lost interest in it or just don't see how they can work it out.

And Bruce, being the super-mega-awesome-nice friend he is, looked them over and then tweaked them a bit here and there and then they just worked!

(Also yes, he did indeed crack his parents code again and stole some of their parts to make said inventions but hey what they don't know won't hurt them and plus he can take it into his dreams.)

Some very, very rare times, Danny showed Bruce some of his own blueprints that he tried to make. Because if he showed an interest in inventions then maybe, just, maybe he'll be able to spend more time with his parents.

But anyways.

He showed them to Bruce, and they kinda just sat there figuring out how to make Danny's dreams become a reality. Then over time Danny just, sorta stopped showing his parents blueprints and more of his own.

They still trained of course, but it was really cool to just, tell someone his ideas and for them to actually listen.

And sure, he could tell his mom and dad but they have the attention span of a goldfish when it isn't anything ghost related (no hate indented but it's just facts.) and Jazz is really busy with her own life too and also a bit... smothery.

And he didn't really have any other friends since no one really wants to take to the child of the resident ghost hunters. There is those two friends he knows online, but he doesn't wanna ruin anything by just showing blueprints.

So telling Bruce was something he took readily too after he reacted well the first time he showed him his first blueprint. Hell, it didn't even need to be a blueprint for a weapon, it could be anything and Bruce would still find a way to help him.

Eventually it shifted from Blueprints of weapons and household items, to ones of spaceships and stuff meant to mimic the stars. Then conversation shifted from everyday stuff to space and it's many wonders and how cool it is.

Danny talked, and Bruce listened.

Bruce trained him, and so Danny fought.

Danny trusted an adult for once in his life, and Bruce gave him every reason to trust him.

Bruce helped Danny with his ideas, and in turn Danny gave him a distraction from most of the pain and worry of what's happening in Gotham until he can go back and help.

Danny found a place he can just let go in, and Bruce allowed him that space.

Which made it oh so terrible whenever he lost everything.

Well, not everything. But it sure felt that way to Danny.

It was when he turned 12, telling his friends online about how his parents completed this craaaaazy new invention that apparently should open a portal to, somewhere he isn't sure.

One of his friends told him he should totally go check it out and tell them if it works or not. It didn't really take much convincing since he also wanted to check it out too.

The pain was overwhelming.

Feeling his body be defiled by electricity and then slowly disintegrate while he could still feel everything and then not feeling anything from his limbs after and yet still being alive and then suddenly feeling again after he couldn't was so overwhelming and the pain was still there and-

Nobody was in the house at the time, his parents out for the day and Jazz hanging out with her friends. So no one could hear him scream.

Then there he was, in the air trying to remember how to breathe only to realize he wasn't breathing-

Then he dropped to the ground and found he could breathe as air forced itself into his lungs until he started feeling light headed and passed out.

Later when woke up he told his friends that it never worked, and stayed away from it for awhile.

Later when he was asleep he didn't see Bruce anywhere, nor any of those ghosts he fights at all.

He didn't think much of it, maybe Bruce just wasn't sleeping.

He thought the same when a few days past by and still no signs of Bruce.

He distracted himself with fighting the ghosts from his dreams that came from his parents portal that he forces back to the zone.

A single day multiplied as it turned to a week, and then that week turned into weeks and then a month and then that month turned into months-

-And he hasn't seen Bruce in so long that he just doesn't get why he couldn't find him. He searched his dreams, not seeing hide nor hair of Bruce and spent his days awake fighting ghosts since his parents homeschool him even though they spend most of their time in their lab and it's him who homeschools himself and sometimes he has to run from his parents because they also attack and hunt him-

But it doesn't matter.

He kept searching for Bruce until he couldn't. He kept searching past when he couldn't.

Sometimes he couldn't help those few thoughts that creep into his brain whenever he stares up at the ceiling and can't sleep.

That maybe Bruce finally got tired of him and that he doesn't care about him anymore and stopped wishing to meet him and abandoned him for another child who isn't like him and can actually be normal and isn't a freak who can't do anything right.

Sometimes Danny lets himself stew in those thoughts.

Danny doesn't like thinking about them that much.

Bruce will be back. He just has to wait. Friends wait for their friends and besides he already has two other friends and yea he can't meet up with them in person but still.

It was when he encountered this one ghost while going past the boundaries of his own dream in search of his Friend that he was told that Bruce wasn't ever going to come to his dream, that he can't come back to his dream anymore.

Now, Danny is smart. Maybe not as smart as his parents or Jazz, but he has something in his brain and he knows that what this ghost is saying is probably true and that he should just accept but-

He just can't.

He doesn't want to.

Bruce couldn't have abandoned him. He's probably still looking for him right now in his own dream and Danny would be such a bad friend if he didn't continue looking.

But then he was told that Bruce wasn't looking for him, because this Bruce person never existed in the first place.

Danny didn't want to believe it. He couldn't.

Bruce wasn't a figment of his imagination.

He just couldn't be.

Bruce was his friend. He's his friend and he was real.

So obviously this ghost is lying.

Until he found out that he wasn't because this ghost knows the dreams of every person on the planet and the Bruce that he knows was never one of them and Danny.

Danny couldn't take that.

This ghost was lying. he just had to be. Bruce is his friend and he's real and he's been with him for so long and he couldn't help him if he wasn't real and everything they've done together was real.

Bruce was real.

Bruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was realBruce was real

He woke up.

He didn't move. Didn't do anything. He just stared up at the ceiling of his room while light shined from beyond his curtains and he should be getting up but he just can't and then it got dark and little stars and planets and blackholes and supernova's played across his ceiling and it was the first thing he and Bruce made together and-

He started crying. He couldn't even sob. He just laid there, watching his pride and joy dance across the ceiling of his room for minutes and then hours.

When the first ray of sunrise tried to peek throw his window was when he finally managed to drag himself out of bed. He took the invention and one of his parent's bat, went to the back of the house and hit it again and again until he felt better.

He didn't feel better.

He did the same to everything else he and Bruce made.

Nothing ever made him feel better.

So instead, he threw himself into fighting all the ghosts that came through the portal. Every fight marked victory, and victory meant injuries because that's just how things worked.

Victories used to give him joy. Because he could go back to Bruce and tell him everything about it and get praised for it.

Now he can't.

He can't tell his parents. He can't tell his sister. He can't tell anyone.

Nobody cares about him anymore, and that's just sometime he has to accept now.

#dp x dc crossover #dp x dc #decided to leave this on a sour note I guess #because idk #If this makes you hurt then yey I have succeeded!#Anyways #bruce wayne #before he became Batman and stuff #Danny going through it #Hasn't even met Vlad yet Dafuq #Been gone for so long and the first thing I do is put Danny through the wringer #lol #Anyways have this ig #Danny ain't ghost king here sine he hasn't gotten that far and Vlad ain't outta the hospital yet #Actually Vlad just kinda fucks out and does his own thing after he's out #Oh also Danny Sam and Tucker don't know each other physically #mostly just online friends #Reason being #Uh #I'm just gonna ssay that they all live in different cities and that Sam and Tucker's parents don't want to move to Amity because apparently #everyone there is crazy for ghosts and something #I dunno if you got a better reason say it #or #sum i un really care that much #anyways bye

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