#but also they/them pronouns are used to degender a lot of binary trans people as well so it can really go either way

[nightside101]

Do you guys remember in arc 1 when people used to call the wizard by their name? And then by late game no one ever uses their name anymore and they're referred to exclusively as The Wizard, even by people who consider themselves to be friends? Even by people who once used to call them by their actual name? Even though they live in a wizarding world that is, ostensibly, mostly made up of wizards?

and then by Lemuria they're introducing themselves to people as The Wizard too...

#wizard101 #NPCS USED TO CALL ME SETH!!!! #surge talks #it's the loss of identity for me #the pronouns also seal the deal imo - ik a lot of people / their wizard ocs use they/them so it works out there #but also they/them pronouns are used to degender a lot of binary trans people as well so it can really go either way #makes me wonder. is the wizard beginning to forget their own identity too? or are they doing this on purpose? #both interesting to explore. #the 'I am upheld as a hero/savior to such a degree that i am beginning to forget I am also a human being' #vs 'I have too much public visibility so I will preserve my privacy in what small ways i can' #Do they want people to call them the wizard because they KNOW it's unremarkable? or has this been thrust upon them along with #everything else. hmm...

[nothorses]

#idk i have thoughts about the 'binar v. nonbinary' distinction. i think there is a reason#that trans people get degendered when they use binary pronouns#AND wrongly gendered when they use use gender neutral pronouns#for example

i'm intrigued by these thoughts would you like to share more about these thoughts

I think I'd boil it down to like... specifically the idea of "binary trans" people as a class.

I very firmly believe that the oppression of nonbinary people ("exorsexism") exists and is a real form of oppression, and I believe that experiences with it- and the ideological foundation it rests on- are unique and worth discussing. I think nonbinary people have unique experiences with oppression that are necessary to listen to and understand, and that it is to everyone's benefit to include in those perspectives in larger conversations around trans justice.

I specifically take issue with the idea that there is a group of people that can easily & universally be differentiated as "binary trans" in anything but how those people personally identify.

I think that, socio-politically speaking, the only people that are truly classed as "binary" are 100% gender-conforming dyadic cis people. When we're talking about transphobia as a concept, we're talking about a system of oppression meant to punish people who stray from the gender binary. Historically, anyone punished under this system was included under the "trans" umbrella: gender-non conforming cis people, drag kings and queens, nonbinary people, intersex people, you name it. We are all gender outlaws; we all exist outside traditional understandings of gender, and we are all punished for doing so.

Now, we can narrow the scope quite a bit; I do still have the ability to "pass" as my gender, which is not an option to a lot of nonbinary folks. I can get a gender marker that accurately reflects my gender, and I can go "stealth" in a way that doesn't cause me a lot of dysphoria. I absolutely acknowledge that there are experiences I do not have, and oppression I do not face, and I should take care to listen to the people who do face them.

The problem for me here is that like, none of those things are exclusively "binary trans" experiences either. Plenty of nonbinary people are not strictly outside of every binary gender, or outside of comfort with a binary gender presentation. Such is the enormous multitude of nonbinary identities, and the unknowable vastness of human experience.

The other, perhaps larger problem for me is that I also do not strictly have a "binary trans male" experience. I mean, least of all because I have still at this point spent more of my life identifying as nonbinary than I have as a trans man- but also because I'm still trans. In a lot of ways, I'm not actually viewed as "binary"; I am clock-able enough that I'm pretty regularly degendered by even incredibly well-intentioned cis people, for example. My grandma is confused about my gay relationship; she very much does not think it is gay or straight. Anyone who knows I'm a trans man does not think of me as a woman or a man; they think of me as something entirely outside of the binary, and they treat me accordingly.

To go back to the tag you're quoting: I think binary trans people using binary pronouns are degendered for the exact same reason that nonbinary using gender-neutral pronouns are misgendered. People don't want to recognize us as the genders we are. They don't want to validate an experience of gender that lies outside their tidy little gender binary.

Again: this doesn't mean that exorsexism isn't real, or even that "there is no such thing as a binary trans woman/man". That's not what I'm saying. I want to keep having discussions about the unique experiences nonbinary people have, and the unique ways in which transphobic society treats and targets them, and the unique oppression they suffer, and why, and how we can fight that.

I also don't think I'm the first person by far to point out that maybe the idea of The Binary Trans Experience should be problematized a little bit, and I think there's something to be said for the funky space that "binary trans people" occupy on the good-little-gender-conforming-cis-person to nonbinary continuum.

#if anyone uses this to justify erasure of nonbinary people or oppression #i just want you to know that i am shooting you with a gun.

[enjoyedthatchair]

FYI the reason people assumed Chongo was not close to trans women/did not assume best faith is that he degendered a trans woman, his recollection of her post was notably more malicious than the original content, and because of how much of the notes consisted of people who were actively comparing egg jokes to misgendering. As well as the general way in which egg joke discourse tends to be heavily inflected by transmisogyny to begin with.

(about this) while i get this, i still think that the fact this was the default reaction is pretty telling on how discourse can completely warp an otherwise innocuous post about a small frustration Some Guy had about a post he misremembered made by someone whose gender he did not know into "hes purposefully misgendering and misrepresenting a trans woman".

its also worth noting that the reason his recollection of her post was notably more malicious is due to her replies on said original post, which... cmon, those were pretty bad. if this was just joking amongst friends i would have no problem with OP and would even think that chongo shoulda been more lenient, but the fact that its not and shes worried her friend might find it is just extremely uncomfortable. maybe im biased as a non-binary person who doesnt use exclusively they/them pronouns on the gringo side of the worldwide web, but comments like these made behind the targets back just leave a bad taste in my mouth. speaking of not respecting non-binary people who use anything other than exclusively they/them pronouns, didja see she tweeted this?

im starting to think this woman doesnt respect peoples identity. this isnt a gotcha btw, i think your message is earnestly trying to be insightful and as i said in the beginning: i totally get how chongos original post could be misconstrued, specially if you engage with this discourse a lot. chongo does too. but i seriously believe there was nothing wrong with chongos original post, just as there was nothing wrong with epistemophagys original post. chongos post didnt link to epistemophagy in any way, it wouldve never reached her if people didnt extract the worst possible message from it, and therefore couldve never caused her any harm. you could make the argument that his post could lead to transmisoginy, as it adds to egg joke discourse, but frankly i dont see it. "can we not?" isnt exactly a compelling rhethorical argument and chongo had no reason to believe his post would reach anyone beyond his (very pro-trans) audience. if someones being transmisoginistic in the reblogs of that post its not on chongo and most of the reblogs i saw just said something to the effect of "yeah those jokes make me kinda uncomfortable too". thank you for explaining where people on the other side of things are coming from, i hope you can understand where im coming from. stay cool, anon!

#god i hope this doesnt come across as combative in any way #because i seriously think anon here was just being kind and informative #as for my personal take on egg jokes: as long as youre not going out of your way to make anyone uncomfortable and arent being an asshole #i think theyre ok to make. i just dont personally find them funny but hey if you do thats cool. #and if they help you in any way thats even groovier #mine

[transmeds]

I fail to see the issue with “masc nouns” (mealexical language). Such nouns refer to language that is generally used to describe individuals who experience some sort of gender masculinity or consider themselves a male/man, hence the use of the use of the word “masculine” (of or referring to men/males). Everyone knows that men do not have to be masculine, but by the same token, surely you realize that masculine people don’t have to be men and can choose referential language that describes them as anyone else. So, yeah, it does make sense if a person who isn’t “male”, a word that is used to describe a binary gender identity, bodily sex and the gender role of “man” often ambiguously, wouldn’t want to be called male if they weren’t one. Still, they may have other connections to manhood, maleness or masculinity they deem significant enough to use mealexical language, and they deserve to have that respected. Male isn’t a dirty word, but it’s a loaded word for many trans people. Also, some people who are masculine aren’t males. Surely, you, a GNC trans man, can at least appreciate that. After all, you describe yourself as effeminate and can obviously distinguish presentation from identity. What it seems that you are misunderstanding is that they can be intertwined in complex ways that you yourself may not understand, but the individual themself does, which can include a non-male identity, but a legitimate desire to be referred to using mealexical language. I find it strange you can separate presentation from identity, but not pronouns and other similar functions of grammar. Can you maybe explain why you feel that way? How is one okay with you but not the other and why?

see i can separate presentation from identity, but i consider he/him pronouns and words like man, which mean nothing except for male, to inherently be.. male and completely separate from presentation.

you basically asked me "how can you separate something that has nothing to do wifh gender from gender, but can't separate words that have no other purpose except for describing gender and referring to someone in a gendered way?"

its not like i think that people have to exclusively be okay with using the accepted pronouns n words n theres no exceptions, but i am saying the people who genuinely want to be called a man, a boy, a him. words that do nothing except describe being a male, have no reason to call that something masculine when it's not, its male.

i get what you mean by masculine people not having to be men, for sure. but why would someone who isn't male actively wish to use "masculine" nouns and pronouns and actively wish to gender themselves as a man? as a male?

and see, im fine with it in a lot of situations. im fine with people calling me a girl in the way that i want crossdress. im fine with people using she/her on me in the same sense. but i am not a girl and i dont use she/her pronouns. i am fine being Seen as a woman because i just don't care. theyre wrong and they dont change what i am, i am not female and i dont identify as female or with female nouns. i like FEMININE things, feminine words. being pretty, being beautiful. none of those things are inherently female. being a girl, a woman, a ma'am however? those are female. so why call them feminine nouns when theyre not?

if someone is a "non-male" but actively wants to call themselves male (1. at that point they probably are male 2.) it is not an excuse to actively try to degender words meant to males and try to force men into using masculine instead of male. there is no "gender masculinity" there's masculinity and theres gender. separately.

#transmed #truscum #masc nouns #whatever! #its just weird to try to take away the word male from men and replace it with masculine

[ftmi-go]

Little story and a question: it/its is really cool. i knew someone who claimed they had trans friends (tbh I was probably only the second trans person she knew) saying “it/its is dehumanizing.” She was against it/its SO MUCH that she would proudly announce she refused to use it, since apparently, “all her trans friends said it was offensive,” which is really, really weird… because she would claim “being straight where I’m from is uncommon.” (I’m pretty sure she too is American.) so, for my question, how do you explain to people that it/its is totally fine? It’s been fine, it always has been fine, but there’s a small population that is queer and oddly enraged by it.

to be honest, it doesn't really sound like this person is very interested in learning or changing her opinion. that said, this is how i think of it and might explain it:

refusing to use a trans person's pronouns because you don't "agree" with them is transphobic, no matter what those pronouns are. this is the same argument used against they/them pronouns and neos in a different coat of paint.

if someone is using it/its pronouns, then it obviously doesn't have a problem with it/its pronouns. maybe it doesn't see them as dehumanizing, it's reclaiming them, the dehumanization is the point, or literally any other reason. regardless, this is what it wants! you are not somehow protecting it by refusing to use its pronouns!

using it/its pronouns for someone who uses it/its pronouns is NOT THE SAME as calling a trans person "it" to strip them of their humanity. it's similar to degendering: a lot of people use they/them pronouns, but sometimes binary trans people will be called "they" to degender them, as a form of misgendering. that doesn't make they/them pronouns inherently degendering, they can be the correct pronouns for some people and also a weapon against others. heck, the same applies for he and she! that's just how pronouns are, and what it comes down to is that you need to respect other people's self-determination. your opinions and comfort literally do not matter when it comes to other people's pronouns, just your own.

#anonymous

[vermintree]

My main thing is if you ONLY use they/them pronouns for a binary transperson on purpose, you're definitely being transphobic

Using they/them sparingly for any person is generally okay in my book unless asked, as they still have a specific purpose in the English language

Controversially, I feel like combined use of the they/them pronouns and another set is more okay for a binary transperson, as they have a more wildly accepted gendered language to discuss them by most of the time, also most cis people are referred to by they/them sometimes, so for a trans person interested in passing, a normal amount of use of they/them is good imo

Ofc degendering is a problem, and many binary transpeople have to fight hard to get people to use their correct pronouns without being pointedly called "a they"

This argument holds way less water when considering people who use nonstandard gendered language (not he/she/they), as they, depending on their identity, have to fight a much different fight to get their gender recognized

There's a lot more to this and I'm just ranting but yeah I'm both a woman and nonbinary, and I would not be happy if people stopped using they/them

Also also I was taught 'he or she' was best practice for addressing someone whose gender you don't know but I'm sorry nah I'm not they they they they they they them they he nor she they they

#gender rant #worm warning #gay #dont listen to me

[iraprince]

Sorry to come ramble in your inbox, but irt you talking about your relationship with they/them pronouns, I've noticed more and more over the last few years that people who use them think that Everyone should use them regardless of gender or preference. I've had to tell so many people to stop calling me they instead of he despite knowing my pronouns, because it feels like and Is intentional misgendering. It's also been used to subtly out me in potentially unsafe situations cause "sorry, I didn't know what to call you so I just defaulted to they" and it always tells me they don't see me as masculine enough to gender correctly to strangers, and I'm the one who has to deal with both the emotional and interpersonal issues that come from that. They/them both is and isn't a neutral set of pronouns, it's only neutral if the person chooses to use it neutrally or you don't know their pronouns yet. The focus should be on respecting other people and their wants and needs, not what gives you personal pleasure to call them.

yeah, this is a huge issue i've seen for ppl i know who only use one set of pronouns too and also is a way i've seen ppl sneakily degendering trans women in particular. and like -- there's no great way to phrase this bc "binary trans ppl" is a really shaky category that in my experience isn't often an accurate or useful category to use but as a clumsy attempt to kind of group several sets of overlapping experiences, i see this happening a lot to ppl whose identities are decidedly not Neutral but then ppl pull out they/them anyway in a way that seems to mean, whether intentional or not, "okay fine i can see you have some kind of Gender Thing going on but you don't pass so i don't really care to engage with this outside of throwing a Gender Weird marker on you" or on a more malicious bent "okay i see that you Think you're a man/woman buuuuuuut i'm not buying it so i'll just avoid it, while maintaining plausible deniability and not Looking Transphobic"

not exactly related but see also the experiences i've had w well meaning cis ppl irl where everyone's introducing themselves and then they stop on Me And Me Alone to say "and what pronouns do you use? :)" which is like. okay you've got the spirit but we do hit a point where ppl being very pointedly precious abt pronouns/making immediate assumptions abt pronouns starts to be the new way of saying "you look gay. what's up with that"

i think it's one of those things where the outward results (i get they/them'd a lot in tags on my art on here, for example, and i don't really care bc i'm not expecting everyone to come scour my page to find my pronouns before typing something out on a whim) is less of an issue that the underlying ideas (that there is a single magical way to refer to anyone you don't know that will Always Be Fine). idk what the overall solution is besides mindfulness (for lack of a better term lol), and unflinching reinforcement of boundaries, and nnnormalizing (AUGH also for lack of a better term) touching base w ppl before u talk abt them esp in in-person contexts where ppl can get outed

#prob the last ask im gonna answer abt this bc i like to try to keep this blog kind of an art gallery more than anything but i appreciate- #this perspective a lot

[jamieze]

UPDATE: My most prefered pronouns are "they/them." "She/hers" is still great. I am a nonbinary, genderqueer femme person. For me, this means I have some body dysphoria but I experience a lot of dysphoria around my social role and societal expectations, in a way that feels like a physical burden on me. While I don't feel binary gender is right for me, the experiences I have all fall on the traditionally feminine side. When I first started telling people about me, these were the terms I used but I quickly felt a pressure to make myself easier to understand, so started asking for "she/they." But now I think it's important to clearly name and embrace being truly nonbinary.  In doing so, I also hope to make more room for my trans siblings of all experiences and presentations. It's wierd to have cis passing privledge when you don't want it. I want to support and amplify everyone under the trans umbrella.  Thank you all for making the adjustments you've already made to respect me. It means so much to me and helps me be a better neighbor on spaceship earth. If you would consider trying to degender your language, such as "ladies and gentelmen," I think that would be positive for cis lives as well. Thank you for all your love in words and action. I am a lucky, lucky duck Jamie They/them https://www.instagram.com/p/CBZLAlsnsax/?igshid=3pppeze66grf

[thedeadflag]

I saw the post about lesbians using he/him pronouns and tbh I think it lacked nuance given every lesbian I've met who does that is a WOC who struggles with being involuntarily distanced from femininity due to racism and/or has linguistic difficulties with English being a colonialistic language that can't really truly convey their specific womanhood. That said, given this is a consequence of racialized misogyny this is a separate issue than white gay men using she/her and I won't defend that.

I mean, as I said in my notes, I’d never personally, individually call anyone out for it, and I get that gender can get complicated for folks, especially across the intersection of race given how femininity in women is positioned in alignment with whiteness, by and large. I won’t pretend to understand that sort of experience. 

I can only speak to my experiences with afab people who use he/him.

And in my experiences, the vast majority of afab folks who have a stable lesbian & woman identity, who also use he/him, have been major transmisogynists and cissexists, similar to the way transmisogynistic/cissexist transmasc folks and trans men in their approach to defining lesbian identity/women’s spaces/lesbian spaces/womanhood/femaleness/etc. (and there is a notable diff between that group’s handling of those concepts and your avg cis lesbian’s) They’re often the first to degender trans women and undermine our womanhood (often coincidentally narrowing womanhood and lesbianism to ‘female experiences’ in ways that almost always distance trans women and keep afab trans masc folks and trans men closer to lesbianism than us) in my experience, far more readily and easily than other lesbians in the community. Anecdotal? Absolutely, and I’m the first to admit that, but that does play a part in how I feel. A lot of the transmisogyny I faced in community spaces came from (or was directed through the community by) folks with he/him pronouns…mostly trans men and trans mascs, but a few butch lesbians, too. 

So that, on top of my own experiences with recognizing that he/him are primarily infused with maleness even if there’s some wiggle room, and that I fought tooth and nail for the she/her pronouns I use as a means of communicating my womanhood?

Yeah, I take some issue with it all. I think it’s a largely cis experience of being able to take up the pronouns of the opposite binary gender and still have a reasonable expectation of maintaining their core gender validity. I think afab nb woman-aligned folks by and large are able to leverage their proximity to their birth assignment in this way as well.  I think this particular form of expression is often cis privilege at play being wielded around often uncritically, with no thought to the existence of trans folks, particularly trans women, and no thought to how that usage impacts trans folks negatively. I think there’s an extensive history of trans dudes and trans mascs using this very reasoning to push trans women and transfem folks out of women’s spaces, out of wlw spaces, and being very successful in the process. I think there’s a link between the reasoning that approves of those pronouns for women and the essentialist bullshit that distances/excludes trans women from womanhood and lesbianism while holding up birth assignment and socialization as essential, and simply tagging on a “this is inclusive to trans butches” does nothing to erase that.  

I can wrap my head around why some would do it instead of opting for gender neutral pronouns given the right argument, and I can even respect some of those reasons well enough, while recognizing there are some reasons I will lack the experience to be able to understand. Still, unless it’s a language barrier issue of someone coming from an inherently gendered language, whose folks have their own way of navigating gender and sexuality through language that don’t translate to English…then yeah, I’m almost certainly going to be uncomfortable and wary around those folks until they prove they can be trusted. 

When the majority of afab non-men I’ve encountered who use he/him have reproduced transmisogyny at the same degree and fervor as trans men and trans mascs, I’m not going to give them the benefit of the doubt. They’d have to make it explicitly clear that they hold no transmisogyny or cissexism inside them before I stop expecting them to behave and think like male and male-aligned folks in the community.

It’s complicated stuff, and I have no doubt it causes a lot of heartbreak and pain and confusion for a hell of a lot of folks. However, I have to prioritize trans women above all others. And I know the impact this sort of thing has had on us, and it’s not good, so I have an obligation to be critical of it and boost the voices of those directly affected (trans butches). A solid chunk of lesbians of colour do use those pronouns (I’ve personally seen more white afab lesbians use them, but I do recognize it’s a more popular form of expression among woc in general), and as a white woman, it’s not my place to tell them they can’t ID certain ways, or can’t express themselves in ways that help them navigate the racialized misogyny they face. 

But any time transmisogyny or cissexism pops up, that’s going to affect me. And while I sincerely hope my past has been an outlier, and things will be much much better in the future within this context, I’ve come to expect a heavy dose of transmisogyny and trans male/trans masc-style bullshit from people in the wlw community using he/him pronouns. Such folks have very rarely managed to avoid sinking down to my expectations, so I’ll refrain from trusting them and will view them as a threat until proven otherwise. I think that’s about as fair a compromise as I could provide on that front.

#intracommunity discourse #transmisogyny #cissexism #gender norms #intracommunity issues #Anons #long post #butch #lesbian community

[nothorses]

re: the binary/nonbinary discussion. i feel the main logic behind mis- and degendering is about rejecting the target as thoroughly as possible. denying their reality. if you want a place at the table of the Recognized Genders tm, actually you get none, you Abject Other. wait you are trying to have a picnic over there? get right back in your chair you lunatic, there's nothing outside this table.

also, discussions like these often feel so backwards to me. bigotry comes from the bigot exerting it on others, not the target somehow inherently attracting it. and it's not logical or consistent past a certain degree. really wish ppl would approach things more practically and less ontologically.

I could totally see that, but I will say that I tend to see degendering specifically "justified" a lot by hand-wringing benefit of the doubt stuff. like, "they/I just forgot your pronouns", or "it's so hard to keep track of pronouns so I just use they/them for everyone"- excuses that try to save the person doing the degendering face. we even saw this in the CEO drama; "I just didn't know her pronouns!" when that information was readily available and easy to access.

the whole point is, for a lot of people, that degendering can be justified. it comes pre-baked with the benefit of the doubt; you just forgot! you're so bad at remembering, haha, oh well. better luck next time! you'll get it eventually!

when people want to be openly hateful, they openly misgender. rejecting the target as thoroughly as possible means using "she/her" for me.

when people degender me, it's only concrete and obvious like a quarter of the time that they're doing it at all- and even when it is obvious, they and everyone around them will work overtime trying to convince me that it's actually not degendering anyway.

when people intentionally misgender me, that's, like, the whole point. they want me to know they misgendered me. they want it to hurt as much as possible, and that's why they misgendered me instead of just degendering.

I hear you, though, and maybe this is just based on my experiences as someone existing primarily in trans-friendly or "trans-friendly" spaces! but that's kinda where my analysis is coming from.

[nothorses]

i remember reading a fictional lesbian romance book where a straight woman falls in love with someone over text before realizing that shes been texting a butch lesbian. it was a cute story, but one part always bothered me. theres one part where the two go on a date, and a waiter misgenders the butch lesbian before realizing that shes a woman, then apologies profusely. the butch lesbian doesnt really mind, but the "straight" woman gets really upset and angry over it, thinking about how "women can look like anything, and dont have to be feminine to be women" and that sorta thing.

what annoyed me a lot was that she wasn't angry at the idea of just gender being assumed onto strangers, but that she (or rather her girlfriend) just happened to be the one inconvenienced by it. like yeah women CAN look like anything, so maybe we should stop assuming everyones gender in general?? plus the waiter immediately apologized so they weren't even being rude about it

the whole scene just makes me think of passing (binary) trans people who dont want to get rid of the whole assuming stranger's genders based on appearance or voice, because it makes them feel good that they pass, but literally hurts every nonbinary, nonpassing, or gnc trans person, and it made me kinda frustrated and annoyed.

Yeah, I think there's something to be said for the fact that assuming gender neutrality can be dysphoria inducing for some people. Especially people who often have it forced on them as a method of degendering, or denying their genders; Ive definitely had people use they/them pronouns, or sometimes chose to call me "Grey" instead of "Greyson", because they're unwilling to acknowledge my manhood. And I've seen people who use it/its pronouns discuss how it can feel like misgendering to have they/them assumed, because oftentimes folks will use those pronouns for them as a way of avoiding the use of it/its for their own personal comfort.

And there is definitely a phenomena that people are often touching on here where, like, cis people will initiate pronoun sharing exclusively because one trans person is present. Which might be fine for some folks, and for others can feel like drawing attention to the fact that they don't fully pass.

But thats also not something we can really avoid by defaulting to assuming gender, either. I think there might be more nuanced, context-based solutions (ex: you meet someone you have been told is a trans woman, you haven't been given pronouns yet, she's very binary and obviously presenting that way, you can probably assume she uses she/her at first). But they aren't catch all, and imo it's still by far best practice to avoid assuming and normalize asking. Over time, it'll hopefully feel less like degendering, too.

I just want to avoid assuming that everyone who feels uncomfortable with that in the meantime is being malicious about it. Folks can have their discomfort, talk about it, and also still acknowledge that avoiding that assumption is best practice overall.