#Riddler does not have all that hatred attached to him

[distort-opia]

okay this isn't about batjokes but about riddlebat lmao. like i getcha if you ship them cutely (for example lego batman or telltale for batjokes) but when they ship them from the The Batman 2022 movie and they treat them like they're just a bit quirky !! of a normal relationship ship, the whole thing just makes me want to cringe cause what?? they ain't some kind of funny lil villains edgy uwu and if you do want to ship them i feel like it should be something atleast a bit like batjokes ig

I mean... tbh, I'm a little "why would you ask us, a Narnia blog, this" regarding this ask, since I'm not really a Riddlebat shipper :)) But the comparisons with Batjokes indeed seem to happen frequently, which doesn't really work if you look at it in detail. Joker and Riddler are distinctly different characters, especially in comics, and their dynamics with Bruce also heavily differ. But well, if you're a villain and obsessed with Batman... I guess the parallel is easy to draw.

When it comes to Riddlebat in The Batman (2022), I'm not really surprised by the uwu-ification of Bruce and Edward especially. This inevitably happens with this type of character; hell, it happens with most (white and even a little bit attractive) serial killers. For example, a Netflix show about Jeffrey Dahmer came out recently, and you can bet there's a fandom around it as well, despite everything. There's a segment of fandom that'll always find dark, obsessive characters attractive, and derive enjoyment from... well, not sanitizing them, but making them fluffy and cute and palatable, in a sense. Not sure if "I project on the other character in the ship and the thought of this horrible person being desperate and cute for me" is the draw, or if it's more "We're going to depict these two dark characters as what they lack in canon specifically"... or a combination, or something else entirely.

However, the latter is a phenomenon in most fandoms with darker ships, including Batjokes. It's not just Riddlebat. Fanwork tends to reflect what canon has the least of. That's how you get a lot of fluff or found family or happier fics in fandoms that have grim or tragic canon material (this is the case with Batfam-oriented works too). I personally don't begrudge fans who enjoy making or consuming lighter content for darker ships, since I understand what the draw is and the motivation behind it. I'm more of an enjoyer of the darker aspects of canon, and that's that-- I create that kind of content, and I know how to filter and navigate fandom to find what I like. There's only a problem if these fans don't make the distinction between "this is my personal headcanon and preference" and "this is canon characterization". If you unironically woobify the villain and argue they're misunderstood and actually they're so emotional and so hurt, etc. etc... then yeah, I get the frustration, Anon. At the end of the day, if you're going to ship villains who have canonically terrorized and killed people, you should be able to own it. If it makes you that uncomfortable to interact with a character this canonically dark, it's better to just move on to a different one, rather than justify their actions and rewrite the canon in your head to the point where that character isn't even recognizable anymore as themselves.

#then there's the way Joker is currently perceived by the DC fandom #Riddler does not have all that hatred attached to him #even though he's committed his fair share of crimes in the movie #and he's got plenty of similarities in MO with Ledger's Joker in TDK #he's easier to ship with Bruce as a villain because the 'stigma' of Joker doesn't apply #and he hasn't PERSONALLY harmed Bruce to the extent Joker has #but well. the Psych graduate in me always tries to make sense of tendencies I see in fandom #I like to speculate but do keep in mind it's just that #asks #fandom negativity

[ficklefics]

Friends Like These - A Summary (spoilers!)

A summary of Friends Like These, a fic about Jerome Valeska, Harleen Quinzel, and how they met.

I thought it would be good to have this, just in case anyone was interested in reading Who Needs Enemies but didn't want to read 63,000 words of fic.

MASTERLIST

SERIES MASTERLIST

SEQUEL: Who Needs Enemies

Harleen Quinzel is the heir to the family business, the perfect daughter, the perfect student.

At least, during the day she is.

At night she becomes a shadow in the city streets, addicted to danger and crime, constantly chasing a bigger high.

After leaving Gotham five years ago, she has returned at seventeen. She quickly becomes friends with her classmate, the mysterious billionaire Bruce Wayne, and his sort-of-girlfriend, Selina Kyle. For a moment she’s living a relatively normal, boring life.

And then she meets Jerome Valeska in Arkham Asylum. Or reunites, as she met him at the circus when she was twelve – he was the reason the Quinzels left Gotham.

They are both intrigued by each other, but Harleen does her best to resist the temptation of the insane criminal.

Her plan falls apart when he attacks her school and kidnaps her, taking her to an abandoned building outside of the city. They fight and flirt, Harleen trying to escape and Jerome thwarting her every move; after a night of confessions on the rooftop, Harleen attacks Jerome, and he punishes her by carving a letter into her stomach – ‘J’.

Despite the hate she feels towards him, Harleen can’t control her mind when Jerome begins to feature in her dreams far more intimately than she wants. Jerome’s possessiveness only grows, but he acts rashly and brings her into the city to prove she’s still alive. After a stand-off with Penguin, Harleen manages to finally escape, though not before she is shot.

Eventually collapsing in the Narrows, she wakes up at a make-shift hospital run by Lee Thompkins. Thanking Lee for saving her, Harleen makes her way to the GCPD.

In her interview with Jim Gordon, she falls apart, angry that she was abandoned and conflicted about her feelings for Jerome. She hides this all from her parents and family who are waiting for her.

She returns home – a new prison. She and her mother fight over leaving Gotham, over therapy, and over school. Harleen refuses to back down: they will not leave, she will not go to therapy, and she will not stop going to school. She won’t let Jerome win.

The best thing to come from all this? Her parents gift her a puppy, a heart-warming moment in the chaos.

School doesn’t last long though; a group of boys provoke her and she attacks them, resulting in her expulsion. Her mother is understandably unhappy. But Harleen manages to make a deal – she’ll go to therapy and will repair her reputation as long as she can move out and start working as a nurse at Arkham. Against all odds, her mother agrees.

Therapy reveals far too many truths in Harleen’s mind – the reason she can’t stop thinking about Jerome and the reason he’s so obsessed with her. She ignores these, trying to relax and indulge in the Christmas season.

But Jerome persists, cornering her in the park on Christmas Eve, gifting her a dagger. She knows she should throw it away – she doesn’t.

New Years comes around and the Quinzel family are hosting a celebration for Gotham’s finest, including Bruce. At the stroke of midnight, Jerome appears once more and offers an ultimatum – come with him willingly or he will gas the rest of the guests and take her by force.

This time Harleen’s not backing down. Pretending to agree she attacks him, forcing the trigger for the gas away from him and throwing it to Bruce. The police arrive, letting the guests escape, but when Jerome begins to taunt her she sees red. Jim has to pull her off of him as he laughs through the blood.

Despite Jerome���s imprisonment in Arkham, she goes to work there anyway, with the agreement that she will never have to see him.

This agreement falls through quickly when she is forced to treat him for burns. Harleen tries to focus on her hatred and anger, but she can’t stop softer emotions from coming through. Something within her has attached to him, cares about him, and it’s still growing stronger.

They begin seeing each other regularly, under the guise of treatment, and the twisted bond between them grows. Jerome offers an outlet for Harleen’s anger, her frustrations, her darkest secrets.

On her birthday, all is seemingly normal, until Arkham is attacked and they are both taken. Trapped in a cell, waiting for death, Jerome becomes vulnerable for a brief moment, before their captors separate them. Harleen discovers that many of Gotham’s most wanted – Penguin, the Riddler, Barbara Kean, and more – have all been imprisoned here. They begin plotting on how to escape, armed with only Harleen’s dagger.

Jerome is returned and she is taken. The man in charge asks her to help him by publicly killing Jerome in a staged fight – she refuses, until he reveals photos and information on her family. Taken back to the cell, she tells the others to leave without her. But Jerome refuses to let her give up, formulating a plan to help her family escape.

On the run in the streets of Gotham together, it’s Harleen’s turn to be vulnerable. For once Jerome is gentle, but she hates herself for letting herself fall apart in front of him.

After her family gets away, they find themselves in a car chase, the two of them on a motorbike pursued by a fleet of men with guns. They almost escape, but as they get closer to Penguin’s mansion Harleen realises they’re out of fuel and they won’t make it.

So she throws them off the side of the road.

Somehow the pair survive, making it to Penguin’s while avoiding their hunters. Harleen is overwhelmed by the chaos of the night and hides herself away, her absence from the meeting seemingly unnoticed.

Later, Jerome corners her in the kitchen, trying to force her to admit her feelings. But she still can’t do it, storming off into the garden where she is taken again.

She wakes up tied to a chair, about to be used as bait for Jerome and tortured live on television. It doesn’t take long for an attack, distracting her torturer. Harleen uses the moment to escape her binds, taking a scalpel, slitting the throat of her captor, and using his gun to kill the guard. She flees the room, searching for Jerome and collapsing into his arms.

This time she’s at home, in bed, with Lee Thompkins caring for her. Lee is quickly replaced by Jerome; Harleen confesses to killing the two men, and everything she has been containing for the last six months spills out. Realising how important Jerome is, she makes her choice and kisses him.

MASTERLIST

SERIES MASTERLIST

SEQUEL: Who Needs Enemies

#jerome valeska x harleen quinzel #jerome valeska #harleen quinzel #gotham #flt #friends like these

[madluv]

you said you wanted some more character oriented questions, so here's this -- how do you view joker and/or harley in regards to the rest of the gotham rogues? who do you view as their friends, enemies, so on? the people they rely on the most and the people they absolutely LOATHE, basically

Oh wow ok lol not a simple question haha, here goes

first off imo, both harley & Joker flit in and out of social circles and aren’t very good at sustaining and maintaining meaningful relationships ( not always, but mostly ) because their moods, attitudes and opinions on people can go very hot/cold very rapidly, and their ever changing ideas of these relationships can cause friction and confusion from others. the fact that they have survived as a couple despite these issues, is the very deep connection they share – the moments of shared true tenderness/love not seen by other people – and most importantly, the obsessive co-dependance that is now ingrained in them.

That said, Harley is far better than Joker at companionship and friendship because she is naturally friendlier, less volatile and crippling loneliness drives her to seek company and embrace people. Harley is always lonely, so her want for companionship and good relationships is always there. She makes an effort, she just makes mistakes often with them.Harley loves Ivy for instance but, without her really comprehending it, also uses Ivy in the times she isn’t stuck to joker’s side. It causes a conflict and distance she doesn’t see but feels, which drives her to try harder and harder to maintain their love, romantic and friendship. Ivy is probably Harley’s one true confidant, who listens, who cares, and who can give harley the relationship she admires, but this is undoubtedly effected by her attachment, love and obsession with joker.

Harley has a tendency to like underdog and struggling types. Even to those she dislikes, seeing them in a moment of weakness or struggle can change her opinion of them ( not always, but sometimes! ) she has a soft spot for wesker, doesn’t mind Crane, Croc or riddler. Two-face & Catwoman are among those she likes, wants to be friends with, but can’t wholeheartedly trust in. She’s not BEST BUDS with these people, but she won’t immediately jump to hostility.The list of those she hates can change often depending on what kind of stance they have with Harley or Joker at the time. Peyton Riley, black mask & Penguin are all people she often detests.

Joker, however, is so much more intense in his feelings, he finds it even more difficult to keep any sort of sound friendships ( whether that’s because his emotions drive him too close or too far, or whether it ends up with him driving a knife into the back of their skull. ) He feels everything with such a deep intensity, the slightest unrest between him and another can cause a tidal wave of destruction.Joker is seriously mistrustful, seriously jealous, and can be so intensely invested that he himself pushes people away subconsciously, mostly to protect himself from what he would perceive as severe disappointment and betrayal. Because of this, a lot of jokers relationships are very superficial, very vapid and only surface deep.This behaviour is contradictory to Joker really, who is a broad thinker, embraces the uniqueness of others, who performs and presents so much of himself for other people – but in his eyes, the cons tend to outweigh the pros and he simply cannot let people in to anything other than he is willing to project at that time.Not to mention his mood swings and violence, that keep friendships at bay out of fear of his capability.

He doesn’t mind most of the rogues to work with in all honesty, unless they fuck up, in which case he does very much mind. He can keep a companionship with a common goal for quite some time if the person involved adheres strictly to his ideals at that time. That said, imo Joker is more likely to confide and have connections with his expendable, nobody henchmen – than those he may sometimes view as competition in Gotham City. Mostly because they are controllable – he can eliminate any chance of them using anything he admits against him. Basically Joker struggles with relationships because although in life he embraces spontaneity, people’s unpredictable nature often infuriates ( and hurts and offends ) him.

As for those he LOATHES – ivy obviously, and though he would hate her anyways, just out of principle and frustration and eye-rolling the person she is, the fact he’s aware harley tends to run to ivy fills him with a hatred like molten lava in his veins loland RIDDLER as well, is SO hated – Joker sees him as a cheap imitation, spotlight stealing, and just a generally talentless hack that he takes no humour in whatsoever.

The difference between harley & Joker in all this is that harley likes people / wants to be liked by people, and Joker only likes SPECIFIC people and doesn’t give a fuck if he isn’t liked, basically. joker likes the idea of people sometimes, but realises in practice, they can’t understand him – that all he can keep are superficial relationships, though he cares so much about those deeper, almost life affirming purposeful connections. That’s why batman is so high on his list of obsessions & why he forgives harley even when he wants to kill her, because she’s more than a passing mention and moments they have shared are incredibly important to him. Harley is more frivolous, whereas joker finds it hard to devote energy to the temporary

really there is loads I can say about this but I could go on forever haha

#ask #jarley #headcanon #joker #harley quinn