#toruigheacht gruaidhe griansholus

[trans-cuchulainn]

#medieval irish #irish mythology #tain bo cuailnge #toruigheacht gruaidhe griansholus #i don't think i can even remember all the tags for this #togail bruidne da derga #i should make a tag for my medieval polls #medieval polls

[finnlongman]

This evil giant Garuidh was a lot more intimidating before I realised that the modern Irish pronunciation of his name was "Gary".

#toruigheacht gruaidhe griansholus #i apologise to everyone at the ICCS who gets to hear my wildly inconsistent pronunciations of irish #it is fully a lucky dip in terms of century and dialect in this paper #irish #gaeilge

[irelandseyeonmythology]

Is there any timeline around for when surviving versions of the Ulster Cycle's stories were written? I wonder if they were more or less clustered in time compared to tales of the Fianna.

Okay, so this is actually interesting! Because I’ve been dealing a bit with Fenian material recently and it’s something that me and one of my lecturers have talked a fair bit about. I apologize in advance for the lack of sources -- I’m currently away from my books for the holiday. Also I should probably start this off with the reminder that the idea of “Cycles” is very much our classification for the sake of convenience -- in the Middle Ages, there was some notion of stories of the Fianna VS stories of Cú Chulainn, etc., but it was very.....loose. They were more likely to sort these things into categories like “Wooings”, “Death-Tales”, “Courtships”, “Cattle-Raids”, etc. Again, doesn’t mean that they had NO concept of these things, just means that it’s something to keep in mind.

The Ulster Cycle was REALLY prominent early on. You have the Táin and the assorted remscéla (Fore-Tales, prequels), Aided Con Roí (9th century?),Echtra Nerai (10th century), Síaburcharpat Con Culaind (10th century), etc. Meanwhile, the Fenian Cycle, while we have some material on them from the 8th/9th centuries, gets off to a slow start. It’s been speculated that the church did not particularly like the Fianna and that, essentially, the Fianna only became safe to consume after the actual, real-life bands of warriors had died out. Think of it -- You have these groups of aristocratic young men with nothing else to do roving around outside the boundaries of law and order, living in the wilderness, bound to a single leader. Basically...a toss-up between a gang and a frat house. 

Meanwhile, Cú Chulainn, great hero of Ulster...well, he’s not what anyone would call particularly child friendly, but he isn’t THAT kind of threat to law and order.

But, into the 10th-11th centuries, we see this BURST of Fenian material, while the Ulster Cycle, while it never DIES (it was thought that that happened for some time, but we have Ulster Cycle material being written down well into the Early Modern period -- a particular favorite is “Toruigheacht Gruaidhe Griansholus, which is estimated to be 17th century and is BREATHTAKINGLY chivalric. 

And there are a variety of reasons we think this might have happened -- Part of it might very well be that, simply put, the Ulster Cycle was centered in Ulster. Yes, Connacht can get in the game with Medb and Aillil, which is where you get some positive depictions; Munster can even get in the game a little with Cú Roí, but overall, the Ulster Cycle is about....Ulster. Conall Cernach (who actually shows up in more texts than The Other One), Cú Chulainn, Conchobar, Emer, etc. Why would the other provinces care about some teenaged twink’s exploits? They have their own heroes to prop up. 

Meanwhile, the Fianna could be everywhere -- The tradition isn’t anchored anywhere, which allowed their exploits to be taken up by anyone, especially in the folk tradition. There’s a reason why there are so many locations in Ireland that are labelled “the bed of Diarmaid and Gráinne” and it’s because they all adapted the legend as it suited them. Finn and his band could have been anywhere, at any time, sleeping, hunting, fighting. Much easier to localize, essentially. And so you have the oral tradition supporting the manuscript tradition and vice versa (people often seem to think of them as two separate traditions -- they weren’t. It wasn’t uncommon for a manuscript to, say, be read out loud.) Sometimes, you even get Cú Chulainn and Fionn facing off in the oral tradition -- I recall one example where, for example, Cú Chulainn takes the place of the Scottish giant that Fionn was going to fight when Giant’s Causeway was formed. In general, though, WHILE there is an oral tradition around the Ulster Cycle, it was massively eclipsed by that of the Fianna. 

#The Fenian cycle #The Ulster Cycle

[margridarnauds]

☕️ the mabinogi?

With all due respect to my Welshicist friends, I did NOT like the Mabinogi starting off. I think it was because I’ve ALWYS come at these texts from the perspective of mythology, I always liked, to some extent, how BROAD the Irish tradition was, liked all the different figures who pop in and out, all the little complexities that you can search out. It’s a bit like running around an endless hamster cage. 

In contrast, the Mabinogi seemed.......flat. Linear. It’s much more a medieval text, in a way that the Irish (with a few noted exceptions, such as a few of the Fenian Cycle texts and Toruigheacht Gruaidhe Griansholus) aren’t. You’re very much in a medieval world with medieval characters, even if I fully believe that there is a mythological underpinning to some of this. The Welsh hid their pre-Christian roots much, much better than the Irish did, presumably because Wales was christianized earlier. And it’s quite confusing, in the sense that there’s a lot that simply isn’t spoken. We don’t KNOW who Lleu’s father is (though quite a few scholars have their guesses). We don’t know WHY he turned into an eagle. He just DOES, and we’re left to go “.......okay.” 

There were aspects of it that I LIKED, overall, but it still seemed a little too dark, weird, and medieval for my tastes. I skimmed it once when I was just getting into the game, then let it accumulate dust for about 6-7 years or so. I could participate in discussions about it, I could listen to my Welshicist friends, but I didn’t really keep UP with it in the way that I keep up with, say, Cath Maige Tuired. 

BUT. But. 

Then I took Middle Welsh. Mainly because it was either that or public speaking, but also because, genuinely, I did want to try something new. I didn’t think I’d get ATTACHED, but I did think it would be worth it to broaden my knowledge and give it another shot, especially since, frankly, I don’t believe that I could really call myself a Celticist if i just knew one of the Celtic languages. A medievalist with a specialty in early Irish literature, maybe, but not a Celticist. (Though note: My definition of the term “Celticist” is going to be different from anyone else’s, not the least because the term “Celticist” is in and of itself controversial.) 

And I kept scoring really, really high marks in Middle Welsh. And then I was the last student standing in my class. 

And my professor gifted me a copy of Buchedd Beuno. 

And then I was volunteering to audit another year of Middle Welsh, because I’d come so far and I didn’t want it to fade in my memory. 

And it’s very, very hard to study a language for nearly two years without developing SOME attachment to it. 

And then I was volunteering for Mabinogi-related fic exchanges because, well, what better way to refresh myself? 

And then I got the Chocolate Box Exchange request for the Mabinogi. And then I was rereading the Fourth Branch to refresh my memory.

And then somehow the new textbook was quoting the Mabinogi. 

And then I was poking at Bláthnait. And that naturally leads to Blodeuedd. 

And then I was rereading all of the Fourth Branch and writing a paper on it. 

And then I was rereading all four branches. 

I genuinely......do LOVE it? All four branches intertwine with one another, but they each have their own distinct FLAVOR. The women tend to be much more proactive and sympathetic than you would really get in Irish literature, the characters in general more rounded. (Look, I can say this, as a Bres Stan: Bres does NOT get the character development, as a villain, that, say, Gwydion does. And I say this as someone who HATES Gwydion. There’s a REASON why I can lay out a point by point analysis for why I hate Gwydion, and it’s because the text BUILDS him. You see how even his arguable best trait, his love for his family, is used to utterly monstrous purposes. Efnysien? Is a MONSTER, but still sacrifices himself to defeat the Irish.) 

Something that me and @cicelythereaper have talked about in our Late Night Mabinogi Discussions is that......the text shows a very keen awareness of women’s vulnerability? To the extent where some scholars have posited, perhaps optimistically, that the Mabinogi was, in fact, written by a woman. I don’t know if I BELIEVE that, but I do think that, whoever it was...they had a keen sympathy for women, even the villainous women in the text. And the relationships in the text tend to be quite lush and built up - You might have characters falling in love at first sight, but then you see how those dynamics grow and change over time, to the point where you can tell whether a couple is meant to be healthy just by whether or not they TALK. 

There’s just. There’s so much to the Mabinogi. So much. Even though it appears really, really flat on the surface, there’s so much depth to it, so much FEELING, and the writing style itself is very, very fine. It doesn’t come across as much in translation, but this IS really the gem of Middle Welsh literature. 

Also: YES, it’s the Mabinogi, not the Mabinogion, the Mabinogion is a late term that wasn’t really in use before the 18th century, arising as the result of a single medieval error. Like, if you’re referring to Charlotte Guest’s Mabinogion, that’s okay (and I wouldn’t correct someone on it anyway, because, like, I know what you mean no matter what and I won’t be pedantic), but....the Mabinogi IS the medieval name for it. 

#long post #the mabinogi #fallenidol-453

[finnlongman]

Coming to the conclusion that the author of Tóruigheacht Gruaidhe Griansholas shipped Cú Chulainn/Láeg to the point of actively (although subtly) dissing Fer Diad to make Láeg look better. He literally borrows one of Fer Diad's expressions of affection from early on in Comrac Fir Diad and gives it to Láeg -- in a scene in which Láeg swears he would rather die than kill Cú Chulainn, no matter how much you paid him. It's like he's going, "Oh, your character said that right before trying to fight Cú Chulainn to the death? Yeah, well, Láeg said that while proving his unswerving loyalty, so, like, who's really a better option here, huh?"

#seventeenth century shipping discourse #toruigheacht gruaidhe griansholus #comrac fir diad #laegblogging

[trans-cuchulainn]

#toruigheacht gruaidhe griansholus #laeg mac riangabra #cu chulainn #medieval irish #irish mythology

[finnlongman]

Láeg in Tóruigheacht Gruaidhe Griansholus is so funny to me because he is responsible for 95% of the plot. He is the one to suggest they go on an international road trip and chase after this giant. He is the one who tells Cú Chulainn that no, they definitely shouldn't let Conall, Fergus, or Lóegaire come with them as back up, nor should they let Emer and Conchobar dissuade them from leaving.

I should point out that the reason everyone is trying to tell Cú Chulainn not to go (or at least not to go without protection) is because he is fifteen at this point.

Láeg.

You are being a terrible influence.

He is fifteen, you cannot take him on a global murder road trip with absolutely no supervision, what are you thinking

#this is so much funnier if you follow ccc-d and believe laeg is at most 16 himself here #two completely feral teenage boys #laegblogging #laeg mag riangabra #toruigheacht gruaidhe griansholus #cu chulainn

[finnlongman]

Láeg in the later Ulster Cycle is currently side-eyeing Joseph Falaky Nagy like "am I a joke to you"

God, he's so Patroclus-coded

#laegblogging #this is actually a really useful footnote for me to disagree with #but also might explain a few things about #toruigheacht gruaidhe griansholus #which is clearly drawing directly on classical sources at times #and that might be why laeg is Like That in TGG #medieval irish #ulster cycle

[finnlongman]

Trying to find my Oidheadh Con Culainn translation document to work out where I got to, because I want to return to it after nearly a year (I've hit That Point in the novel publication process where I need the distraction!), and instead I found my notes on Toruigheacht Gruaidhe Griansholus, which...

Hmm, yeah, I should probably refine those before I give a paper on it at the ICCS this summer.

#toruigheacht gruaidhe griansholus #i am a serious academic #laegblogging

[trans-cuchulainn]

What are your favorite quotes from the Táin or other UC texts? Asking for non-tattoo related purposes I swear.

big question! these are just going to be off the top of my head tbh (well, i will look up the exact wordings, but i am going by what quotes come to mind without me scouring the text)

one of my favourites from TBC is from the stowe manuscript specifically, so it's not in the early versions of the text (you can tell from the gross 15th century spellings), but it's from a poem that ferdia speaks before he fights cú chulainn:

"truagh a dhé teacht do mhnaoi eadrom agus é leth mo chroidhe in Cú cen col is leth croidhe na Con mé"

which loosely translates as "alas, o God, that a woman should come between me and him | the faultless Hound is half my heart, and I am half of his" (trans.... honestly i forgot, sorry)

#gay

tbh, there are a lot of good quotes in comrac fir diad, especially in cú chulainn's lament for fer diad -- e.g. i love the repeated "all play, all sport" motif ("Cluchi cách, gaíne cách") bc of all the symbolism there of lost youth and innocence in the moment of ferdia's death

i also really like the bit in oidheadh con culainn where cú chulainn is begging láeg to leave the battle and stay safe so he can take the news to emer and he says

‘Beirsi buaidh 7 bennachtain,’ ar Cú Chulainn, ‘óir ní fuair tigerna riam 7 ní fuighbe tigerna tarm ési gilla bus ferr ná tusa. 7 do-berimsi mo briathar co cluinfiter fo Erinn uile mar dígheóladsa aniu tú. 7 do-berim briathar óntís do chenglamar aráen re chéile in cétlá, nach tarrla ar n-imscarad ná ar n-imrisin re chéile do lá nó d-oidchi riam co háes na huairi so.'

“Take victory and blessing,” said Cú Chulainn, “because no lord ever found nor will any lord after me find a gilla who is better than you. And I give you my word that it will be heard throughout all of Ireland how I will avenge you today, and I give my word that since the first day we bound ourselves together, we never before separated or quarrelled, day or night, until this very moment." (trans. longman)

emph mine but oh my god. they're so married. that one's probably a bit long for a tattoo though lmao

also there are a lot of very excellently gay cu chulainn/laeg quotes in toruigheacht gruaidhe griansholus but we'll be here all night if i start pulling those out. the bit where laeg asks to be buried in his grave though... it's verse again, verse is good, it's

lodhlaicfior misi ionnat' fheart, Bu h-ionann leacht dhuit-si is dúinn I shall be buried in thy grave One tombstone shall we have (trans. o'rahilly)

there's a definite theme here of me just liking the gay declarations of affection which. yeah. i do. i only tend to remember things i get emotional about so even if i like other lines in the moment that i'm reading them, these are the ones that stick with me!

but i do also like really like the line in TBC where cu chulainn calls himself a "little creature":

"Acht dia festa-su, is andíaraid in míl bec fégai-siu .i. missi." "But if only you knew it, the little creature you are looking at, namely, myself, is wrathful." (trans. o'rahilly)

purely for the vibes of calling himself a míl bec, yunno. i feel like "is andíaraid in míl bec fégai-siu" would make quite a badass tattoo -- that fragment alone might be translated as "the little creature you are looking at is fierce". though this probably only works if you're short. if you're tall i'm not sure you can use that one hahaha (andíaraid is 'wrathful, fierce, angry; baleful, baneful' so basically if you're small and pissed off, that's a good one)

that's all that's coming to mind rn, not sure if those are of any use but if i think of anything else i'll add it on later (realistically that'll be next time i'm combing the text for a random detail and spot a line i enjoy haha)

#tain bo cuailnge #ulster cycle #toruigheacht gruaidhe griansholus #oidheadh con culainn #answered #anonymous

[finnlongman]

Honest conference paper abstracts:

Please Care About Blorbo From My Obscure Text: No Really You Should Care

Please let me tell you why this character you don’t care about even when he’s in a famous text is crucially important to a text that literally nobody has written anything about for a century because so few people care about it. Because he is my son, and this text is weird in all the most fun ways, and that’s an adequate reason to let me talk about it for twenty minutes, right?

#gradblr #sort of #laegblogging #toruigheacht gruaidhe griansholus

[finnlongman]

They sent out the draft schedule for the ICCS in July today, and there are THREE of us talking about Tóruigheacht Gruaidhe Griansholus. Truly, you wait a century for an academic to care about this text, and then three of us come along at once...

#celtic studies #toruigheacht gruaidhe griansholus

[finnlongman]

So what I'm getting from this is that a modern retelling of Tóruigheacht Gruaidhe Griansholus should have them speaking Esperanto

#toruigheacht gruaidhe griansholus

[trans-cuchulainn]

Have you ever listened to The Tale Of Cú Chulainn by Miracle Of Sound? It's about 9 minutes long but I adore it

i'll be honest, at least five people sent it to me when it first came out but i didn't actually get around to listening to it loool (or if i did i don't remember it). so i listened to it just now while washing up some mugs. it's pretty fun. i would quibble with their take on the death tale but i'll be honest i've never NOT quibbled with someone's take on the death tale, idk what it is about this story that means nobody does it right lmao

if you like that you should check out these (and in most cases the albums they're from):

#these are very tain centric but that's because nobody makes concept albums about toruigheacht gruaidhe griansholus #my god that would make SUCH a fun concept album someone should do that #answered #anonymous

[finnlongman]

The weird thing about going from medieval to early modern literature is that when I start thinking about comparative approaches, I have to drastically adjust my ideas of what provides a useful comparison. No longer can I pretend Old English literature is a helpful reference point, when some of the material I'm working on is post-Shakespeare...

#help. my understanding of time just went out of the window #i borrowed a book on old english material and have only just realised how Not-Useful that is #toruigheacht gruaidhe griansholus is from 1679! #eachtra na gcuradh is from 1761! #finn is not doing a phd

[finnlongman]

That moment when your abstract gets accepted for a conference... but you submitted it more than four months ago and therefore have no memory of what you actually promised to talk about.

#should probably... check that... #i know it was about toruigheacht gruaidhe griansholus #but what about it #gradblr #academic shenanigans