#such great ferocity and so much virtù

[radi-17171]

The unholy family

#the borgias #cesare borgia #lucrezia borgia #cesare and lucrezia #sin has a name and it is borgia #mine #rodrigo borgia #juan borgia #guilia farnese #the original crime family #magnificent family of the renaissance #magnificent bastards #my one weakness. the one chink in my armor. you. #magnificent bastards of the vatican #political shenanigans and codependent siblings #history #such great ferocity and so much virtù #odi et amo #house borgia

[anghraine]

ngl Cesare’s imprisonment in his own homeland is kind of hilarious to me, because these monarchs are fighting over custody of his Machiavellian genius like he’s a brain in a jar

#anghraine babbles #such great ferocity and so much virtù #magnificent bastards of the vatican #'he's MY prisoner ok you can't have his tactical abilities! i mean you can't have him. my prisoner. nyah' #'welllll... you don't have any authority over castilla and naturally your daughter's son should be regent for her in the....circumstances' #'so clearly /we/ have authority over castilian political prisoners and he and his brain rightfully belong to the empire!' #cesare: pssst. i am a hundred percent ok with working for you and NOT being in prison kthx #holy roman emperor: nice. let's see about getting you out of there and abducting my grandson from this asshat #i love these terrible people #history blogging #after a fashion :P #renaissance history #cèsar de borja

[anghraine]

because we anons are a greedy lot, how do you think the whole "cesare never leaves the priesthood" would have gone?

It interests me because of the ways in which Cesare manages to make his position work for him, not just in terms of wealth or influence, but actively invoking God, Christ, religious imagery in a way that ... it’s not devout love like Rodrigo’s or Lucrezia’s, but it doesn’t come off as empty, either, a sort of cool respect for the divine. I FIND THAT SUPER INTERESTING.

(Sadly, Cesare’s position wrt religion is completely erratic in S3. I could come up with headcanons and whatnot and undoubtedly will, but I prefer the gradual arc from 18-y-o Cesare all “I have corrupted my soul with bribery” to twenty-something Cesare in full Cardinal of Valencia mode: I CHALLENGE YOU IN THIS TEMPLE OF GOD)

I sadly can’t go on as much as I’d like (*glowers at hands*), so concise version:

- Juan has to linger around, which itself alters everything

- No French marriage, but the marriage is tbh a fairly minor event in the negotiations, so we’ve still got Cesare there--as cardinal.

- Cesare’s flirtation with atheism, much more loaded!

- So, warrior-priests weren’t actually entirely unknown (della Rovere perhaps most famously, but there were def some prominent warlords who were bishops or archbishops or cardinals). Of course the show has only a passing acquaintance with history, but I think it’d be interesting to see Cesare carving a place out for himself in that mould rather than the purely political/diplomatic path assigned by Rodrigo.

- But the thing that really interests me: while Cesare obviously gains a ton of his authority and influence as cardinal from his father, he remains a cardinal in his own right, he holds his benefices personally, exercises clerical authority personally, that sort of thing. And apart from very extreme circumstances it can’t be taken from him. So when Rodrigo dies, Cesare’s position will be relatively secure as long as he doesn’t get himself murdered or excommunicated. On top of that, the cadre of Spanish and Catalan cardinals routinely fell into lock-step behind him--even after he was imprisoned they kept protesting and badgering Julius over him. So Cesare who emerges from near death as leader of the Spanish cardinals and a critical person to win over ... SO MANY POLITICAL SHENANIGANS. :D :D :D

#i didn't even get into lucrezia #anon replies #respuestas #political shenanigans and codependent siblings #such great ferocity and so much virtù #cesare borgia #plotbunnies! #cesare surviving to sabotage everything julius does mmm yes good #Anonymous

[anghraine]

The Borgias + Queen: Cesare and Seven Seas of Rhye (1/2)

(aka remaking old terrible gifs)

#the borgias #cesare borgia #queen #anghraine's gifs #such great ferocity and so much virtù #political shenanigans and codependent siblings #gifset for ts #this is a queen appreciation blog #tbh you could easilyyyy make a cesare fanvid out of pretty much every line of the song #but i don't know how so a selection it is :P #the borgias and queen #by flash and thunderfire i'll survive

[anghraine]

I've discovered that there are still people who think Machiavelli's representation of Cesare in The Prince is all an elaborate satire

how precious

#i guess the coded dispatches to florence are also satire #anghraine babbles #magnificent bastards of the vatican #such great ferocity and so much virtù #/ #cesare borgia #niccolò machiavelli #il principe #anghraine's queue

[anghraine]

wrt that other cesare/caesar ask, wouldn't the punch of the association be lost had cesare used octavian rather than Julius? it's an obvious play on his own name, and while octavian may have been more useful, i don't think for the purposes cesare used it for (it has a very propoganda-ish feel) it would have been useful. I mean idk how it was then, but when you think of caesar you think of julius caesar first and foremost.

Augustus Caesar vs Julius Caesar? 

Honestly, I'm not sure. Julius is probably the first association that comes, but IMO Augustus isn't far behind for anyone remotely familiar with the history (certainly for Italians of the time, I would think). If you're tapping into THE GLORY OF ROME(tm), the one who was actually successful and forged the empire would seem to be a better association anyway. Aut Caesar aut nihil certainly seems to refer to Augustus/the emperors more than Julius himself.

I think there was a strong streak of propaganda, but it was also something Cesare took very much to heart. Ultimately, I suspect he linked himself with Julius Caesar, betrayal and failure and all, because he identified with him. 

#anon replies #respuestas #cesare borgia #magnificent bastards of the vatican #such great ferocity and so much virtù #anghraine's meta #like #augustus/octavian would have been more practical imo #but cesare's emotional identification was with julius #and being cesare he proceeded to build a propaganda campaign out of it #Anonymous

[anghraine]

Do you think Cesare would have acted more in the vein of Rodrigo if he didn't think he was going to die young, rather than double cross at every opportunity? Was it a kind of self fulfilling prophecy? Or do you think C's character was prone to this

No, I don’t think he would have ever behaved like Rodrigo. Their personalities were too unlike; Cesare was secretive and maneuvering, like Lucrezia, where Rodrigo was ebullient and relatively direct. 

Beyond that, Cesare’s belief that he would die young could only bolster the other things driving him on. His resources could only last for the duration of his father’s papacy. The real clock ticking was Rodrigo’s life, whether Cesare himself died young or not. (And while he did, he survived a number of catastrophes afterwards—still, it was Rodrigo’s sudden death that wrecked Cesare’s fortunes. Another year, and I think we can say that Julius’ papacy would have been very different.)

I also would not say that Cesare double-crossed at every opportunity. He had a large number of passionately loyal followers for that reason. The envoy from the Duke of Ferrara, before Lucrezia’s marriage, said, 

He is considered brave, strong, and liberal, and it is said that he sets great store by straightforward men. He is hard in revenge, so I have been told by many

He didn’t trick people merely because he could,but because he perceived those people to have wronged him, or to pose threats to him. Now, he was paranoid and vindictive, so his perceptions were … yeah, but there were certainly episodes where he dug in his heels about people who had neither wronged nor threatened him, and he was consistently generous and fair to those faithful to him. (More so, in some ways, than Rodrigo.)

#anon replies #respuestas #cesare borgia #such great ferocity and so much virtù #magnificent bastards of the vatican #rodrigo borgia #how did i end up stanning renaissance assholes #it's like #he certainly double-crossed people a lot #but he wasn't oliverotto da fermo #...who he double crossed #l o l #Anonymous

[anghraine]

sometimes I remember that I own the cesarborjas url and my day gets just a little brighter

#anghraine babbles #i am an adult #and sorry if anyone wants it bc you'll take it over my dead cold body #magnificent bastards of the vatican #such great ferocity and so much virtù #am i happier about this or andacielos or hurinionath #i don't know

[anghraine]

hmm yes I think my main needs to have this on it

Victorian guy also says that ~1500, Cesare was called 'il biondo e bello'

where is my golden-haired Cesare

#anghraine babbles #such great ferocity and so much virtù #magnificent bastards of the vatican #/ #// #cesare borgia #why do they always go for the dark haired accounts #(though even in those it's only deep auburn) #why does everyone use a portrait 'said' to be of him with nearly black hair #...yeah i know why #*grump*

[anghraine]

Sanuto mentions the advices received, and the rumours which say that Cesare murdered him [his cousin Juan] through jealousy, knowing him beloved by the Pope, seeing him a legate, and fearing that he might come to be given the governorship of some Romagna fief. When Gandia died and Cesare was accused of having murdered him, the motive advanced was that Cesare, a papal legate, resented a brother who was a duke. Now, Cesare, being a duke, resents a cousin's being a papal legate. You will observe that, if this method of discovering motives is pursued a little further, there is no man who died in Cesare's life-time whom Cesare could not be shown to have had motives for murdering.

Rafael Sabtini, The Life of Cesare Borgia

Sabatini's burning hatred for previous Borgia historians fills my soul with joy <3

(he is such an apologist that he's only somewhat better, but his scathing denunciations are still glorious)

#the life of cesare borgia #rafael sabatini #magnificent bastards of the vatican #cesare borgia #such great ferocity and so much virtù #this is just after the 'tanquam minister divina justitiae' thing lol

[anghraine]

It's like the Kobayashi Maru of parenting.

#cesare borgia #political shenanigans and codependent siblings #such great ferocity and so much virtù #gifset for ts #lbr cesare is less rodrigo's mini-me than the screen on which he projects his self-loathing #...an IMAX screen #warning: if you groom your firstborn for your career #constantly try to instill your values in them #and make them your right hand #depending on them to be loyal brilliant ruthless and victorious at all times while expecting no reward #they might turn out to resemble you in some respects! #...stop the presses #rodrigo borgia #(i think it's kind of funny that cesare doesn't really care about anyone /except/ the ones most like him) #(you'd think they were different people or something)

[anghraine]

Do you have your own explanation why Cesare kills his most seemingly loyal captains at one point? People differ so much on the reasons, but I just don't understand how if this was indiscriminate killing and C using them as pawns in a bigger game, he still inspired such fierce loyalty at the end of the day? Could it be a combo of a lot of things, maybe they were part of the conspiracy, or 'someone might have slept with L' as P.S loves to claim lol

The difficulty is that Cesare was so intensely private and secretive that it’s difficult to be certain why he did anything. Sometimes his reasons become clear in context or after the fact, but plenty is still shrouded in mystery.

It’s a bit like Alfonso—was it something he wrt the failed match with Carlotta? Was he seriously in league with the Colonna? Was it opposition to the Aragonese faction? Was it feeling threatened by his influence over Rodrigo? Was it jealousy over Lucrezia? ??????

WRT Lorqua, I think there are a number of possibilities. One, that he severely overstepped his bounds in regard to the administration of the Romagna, and jeopardized Cesare’s grip on power. Two, that he insulted Lucrezia in some way (I don’t think he slept with her). Three, that he was involved in the conspiracy (given the course of events, this seems the most likely, though any possibility could be the case).

Troches seems a lot more unclear. Since we know pretty much nothing, anything is possible. To go by Cesare’s history, though, I would suspect either betrayal or a very serious mistake.

I do think it’s significant that 1) those who served him competently and faithfully were consistently rewarded and 2) his followers and subjects continued to love him and remained staunchly loyal even when it brought them no advantage and even endangered them. They clearly didn’t think he would lash out indiscriminately, or exist in fear of him à la Vader. The likes of Miguel de Corella and Francesco Remolines could be completely secure. 

So—I don’t think he had no reason, or that he was terrorizing his followers in general. We may never know what it was, though. 

#anon replies #respuestas #such great ferocity and so much virtù #magnificent bastards of the vatican #/ #cesare borgia #alfonso d'aragona #ramiro de lorqua #francesco troches #welp my answer to almost everything is 'we can't know' sorry >_> #anghraine's meta

[anghraine]

nienor replied to your post:questions!!!: do you think Lucrezia and Cesare were lovers irl? was Juan or Cesare the eldest child? who do you think the infans romanus' parents were? is it an undisputed fact that Cesare had syphilis? what colour do you think Cesare's hair was???

malaria cures syphillis?? O_O

maaaaaaybe. I think it's the fever? (And he had a really bad case--of malaria, I mean, his syphilis seems comparatively mild, esp for the period. His skin was peeling off with the fever.) But the evidence is mixed. manymanytimesbefore would probably know more about the science side of it; historians generally agree he showed no signs of syphilis after the malaria, but that could be latency.

#nienor #respuestas #such great ferocity and so much virtù #he seems to have regarded syphilis as a minor inconvenience tbh #/ #cesare borgia #magnificent bastards of the vatican #syphilis for ts

[anghraine]

questions!!!: do you think Lucrezia and Cesare were lovers irl? was Juan or Cesare the eldest child? who do you think the infans romanus' parents were? is it an undisputed fact that Cesare had syphilis? what colour do you think Cesare's hair was???

…I love you.

No, I don’t think they were lovers. (Probably. They crossed a few lines, but I don’t think physically.)

Cesare was the oldest of the Rodrigo + Vanozza set IMO, and born in 1476. It’s possible that Juan was a little older, but the evidence at this point suggests otherwise. Rodrigo had at least three older children by other mothers irl, but they weren’t really part of the main sibling group.

I think the Infans Romanus’ parents were probably Lucrezia and Perotto Calderón (or some other dude), though Rodrigo + some lady is also perfectly likely. I don’t think he was Cesare’s son.

Cesare definitely had syphilis, like most of the papal court. I think it’s treated a bit as some natural justice or w/e when it frankly was super super common at that point (Francesco Gonzaga had it, Alfonso d’Este iirc, della Rovere, ~everyone’s got syphilis and shit~). It was latent through most of his main activities and he wasn’t disfigured. He may or may not have been cured by his malaria.

I think he probably had dark reddish-brown hair, though it may also have been blond. I tend to imagine historical Cesare as golden-haired, mostly to separate him in my mind from the invariably dark-haired fictional ones. He definitely didn’t have black hair.

#infamousvalyrianbeauty #respuestas #nice things people say to me #such great ferocity and so much virtù #cesare borgia #lucrezia borgia #giovanni borgia #juan borgia #magnificent bastards of the vatican

[anghraine]

Do you think that Cesare would have succeed in regaining power if he hasn't died in battle in 1507? Bradford makes it seem like it was an inevitable event given his unfamiliarity with civil war. Strathern, imo, seems to think w.o Rodrigo, Cesare lacked the political skills necessary to rise again, and his mental breakdowns only hurt him (effects of malaria?). The mental breakdowns are odd too, Machievelle seems to think it's his personality but are there are other earlier signs of this?

To some extent, yes.

My impression from Bradford was not quite that—more that his arrogance (and exhilaration after years of imprisonment) led him to underestimate his opponents. But in all fairness, I don’t read the end of biographies quite as carefully since they’re so depressing :P

Cesare was on his way to take charge of the heir to the Spanish empire. The Navarrese problems were, in his view, a minor annoyance. I don’t think he was remotely unfamiliar with violent internal strife tbh—he was from Italy, lol. His entire career was spent steamrollering various independently held cities into a single powerful, well-run government. The problem was not his abilities but his arrogance.

I’ve seen a number of people argue that Cesare’s collapse after Rodrigo’s death was due to his dependence on Rodrigo’s abilities. I honestly think that’s kind of silly. Cesare was increasingly independent of Rodrigo as time went on—Rodrigo had to hear what he was doing from couriers, he was often furious, threatened to excommunicate him. (The Borgias pushes that into a serious breach, but they didn’t make up the tension out of whole cloth.) I don’t think he was ever afraid of Cesare as people said, but I also don’t think there can be much doubt that Cesare was striking out on his own more and more and planning for his future after Rodrigo died. 

Now, ofc what he might have done if he were in good health, or had a few months more, or Micheletto hadn’t been captured - basically, if everything hadn’t gone horribly wrong on every level - is very different from what he was capable of doing after he’d already lost a great deal. Bradford says he was treated carefully because they thought he might very well become a royal commander before too much longer. 

Bearing in mind that I’m not an impartial judge, I think that if he’d been more prudent after his escape—though it’s understandable that he wasn’t—he probably could rise again in some fashion. Taking back his lands in Italy as he dreamed? Maybe, maybe not. But I think once he ingratiated himself with the Emperor (and ingratiating himself was never something he had a problem with—it’d be nothing to Sinigallia, particularly with little Charles in hand), he’d be in a position of some kind of power in the Holy Roman Empire and/or Spain, with very considerable opportunities before him. Julius certainly feared that he might be able to cause serious trouble because he remained popular in the Romagna, Tuscany, among the soldiers, and of course Lucrezia was always willing to go to bat for him (and drag Ferrara behind her). 

lbr Cesare Borgia was never one to fail to take advantage of opportunity. The fact that Fernando and Maximilian were wrangling over who got to “have” him while Cesare manipulated the situation from inside prison is proof of that (if it were needed!). And he certainly never shied away from risks. I think he’d have been a figure of some importance again, though it’s hard to say how much.

I don’t think he had a serious problem with mental breakdowns. He was erratic and pushed himself to the brinks of his endurance, but the only thing that really comes to mind is his reaction to the total destruction of his entire life, pretty much, and his recklessness the day he died—both attributable to the circumstances. Everyone has a breaking point. Machiavelli clearly thought his behaviour then was completely unlike everything he’d ever seen from him before, and he’d pretty much been parked in Cesare’s living room for months on end under times of considerable stress. 

#pledgeallegiancetothestruggle #respuestas #magnificent bastards of the vatican #such great ferocity and so much virtù #/ #cesare borgia #i've seen the 'he fell apart without rodrigo' and yeah no #he fell apart with malaria #among many other things #in all fairness #i'm very much 'when in doubt go with machiavelli' school of thought #and machiavelli was hardly an impartial judge #so~ #anghraine's meta