#mspec lesbian antagonism

[posi-pan]

just got recommended a YouTube video on why mspec lesbianism isn’t valid. i am 2 seconds away from re-closeting myself I genuinely hate how people like to dictate others’ identities here.

i'm so sorry. here's a post with sources of the history of mspec lesbianism, dating back to the '50s, if you haven't already seen it. you could also send it to whoever recommended that video, or leave it in the comments of the video, if you're so inclined.

your identity is whatever you decide it is. it is no one's place to tell you it isn't valid or real or important, or to tell you it's harmful. identities don't need to have long histories to be valid, but it is nice to know that you have a whole history backing you up and decades of queer people who felt the way you do and expressed themselves the way you do. you aren't wrong or alone, no matter how many people want to tear you down.

#asks #anonymous #mspec lesbian antagonism

[bilesbianblog]

Bi lesbian culture is explaining to exclus why you use the label that you do in a way you hope will make sense and having them pretend you didn't say anything

Bi lesbian culture is also having exclus give their reasons against your identity and it's literally THE REASON(S) YOU ID AS A BI LESBIAN

🌈

#bi lesbian culture #bi lesbian #bisexual lesbian #biromantic lesbian #mspec lesbian #bi lesbian antagonism #negativity #i love ur avatar it’s so cute

[objectumluv]

Sunset Queerjectum

Sunset queerjectum is similar to sunset para and blankqueer stance labels.

a sunset queerjectum is someone who identifies in some way as queer and objectum.

this stance supports:

sunset paras

recovering paras

(obj4)obj love

cluster a, b and c disorders

reclaiming terms previously used to hurt you

mspecs

aspecs

neo/xenopronouns

neo/xeno/neurogenders

mogai

pro-recovery

cpunk and neuropunk

(researched) self-dx

pro-choice

blm

(other/fict)kins/irls/therians/furries

fictosexual/romantic and having f/o's

witchcraft and paganism

non dysphoric trans/nonbinary folk

drag

age/pet regressoin/dreaming

this stance is against:

pro contact para

encouraging ed/sh behaviour

thinspo/fatphobia

racism, sexism, ableism and general bigotry

autism speaks

misinfo, antagonization

anti-vaxx/mask, pro-life

alm/blue lives matter

factkin or kin for fun

transx/transid

antisemitism and religious prejudice

radqueers

terfs/swerfs/radfems

gender critical/enby skeptic

proship

this stance is unaligned on:

syscource

dni... proship, endos/nontraumagenics, anti-mspec lesbian/gays, anti-objectum, pedo/map, anti-agere/petre, anti-witchcraft/paganism and your basic dni stuff.

#sunset paraphile #sunset paraphilia #sunset para #sunset objectum #sunset queer #queerjectum #sunset queerjectum #blankqueer #objectum queer #queer objectum #objectum para #para objectum #objectum terms #objectum #objectum blog #objectum community #object love #objectum coining #objectum positivity #objectum flags #objectum pride #objectophilia #coining list #my coins #coined by me #flag coining

[404shcats]

Not trying to antagonize just genuinely curious as I've never heard of either term: what does safequeer and radqueer mean? Thanks!

So safequeers are queer exclusionaries who support xenogenders and neopronouns but are against “contradictory” labels (ie mspec lesbians/mspec gays, lesboys/veldigirls, amab transmascs/afab transfemmes, etc). Radqueers are people who support transx/transid (transid meaning transabled, transracial (people who want to “transition races”), transage, transopinion, transnazi, and others like that) and they’re also pro contact for non-consensual things such as pedophilia and zoophilia. /gen

Edit: its more of a split issue on contact and in radqueer spaces but I’d still say to just stay away from them.

#tw nazi mention #tw transid #tw pedophila mention #tw zoophile mention

[inkedintothepaper]

Hate to break the news to you but mspec lesbian alongside the terms semi bisexual, straight gay and bi or pan lesbian are terms used by terfs and white folks who want to feel special without actually being LGBTQ.

you're wrong

If you're going to antagonize me, do it off anon coward

I'M WHITE??????

#tw homophobia #homophobia warning #homophobia #anon hate #anon trolling #do people not know i'm white

[stimmy-geko]

It really is fascinating to see “bi lesbian/mspec lesbian, mspec/bi lesbian supporter” and “exclusionist” in someone’s DNI because like. You’re violating your own DNI pal. You are The Exclusionist LMFAO.

#not stim #stimblr #stim community #discourse #mspec lesbian antagonism #well meaning inquiries will get nice answers bur #people parroting terf rhetoric will be insta blocked ❤️ #this means shit like ‘mspec lesbians are bad and harmful’ #‘mspec lesbians are new and don’t belong in the community.’ ‘mspec lesbians dont need to exist theres already words for them’ #(you sound like a real aphobe/arophobe/enbyphobe with those ones lmao) #anyways terfs started the whole ‘mspec lesbian bad’ thing and if i have to tell you why pushing people out of the queer community is bad #then idk how to help you. all i can do is give your sources #and ALSO. i am an mspec nonbinary/genderfluid/transmasc individual. do NOT fucking ckme at me with ‘oh but ur not a lesbian!!!’ #this shit hurts masc and gender queer people too so dont even give me that shit #if ur response to learning im masc is to shut me down when im trying to talk about bigotry you need to fucking re-evaluate #not stim/

[m-spec-as-heck]

When u see someone vagueing about mspec lesbians

#bi lesbian #pan lesbian #ply lesbian #omni lesbian #mspec lesbian #bi lesbian antagonism #my thoughts

[posi-pan]

Just thought I'd share that

As much as I dislike the new pan flag and think it's unnecessary, someone explained me that the new pan flag has better meaning than the old one.. Like the old one has "attraction to men, women, and nonbinary people" while new one has "attraction regardless of gender". I always thought that people who use new flag use it just because "eww the creator of old one thinks bi lesbians are valid!!" (which is such a dumb reason to use flag or to make a new one cuz i bet that if we would try to search, we would find any creator of queer flags being "problematic" at some point. Plus there's something like reclaiming and separating creator from their work) but I just met pan people that identify more with the second definition and thats why they use the new flag

So yeah I learned something today, and im happy for that

Of course I know that we can reclaim pan flag and change it's meaning, but ig some people just prefer the new one and im just happy not everyone use it just because they want bi lesbians to die. Makes me feel a little better

i wanna preface this by saying i'm not mad or annoyed with you anon or trying to be a debby downer. this is just a topic i've been seeing people talk about lately and i have Thoughts. so this is my obligatory "i'm not mad at you or being aggressive, this is just how i talk" disclaimer.

i don't agree that the exclusionist pan flag has a "better" meaning. i don't see anything wrong with the pan flag's meaning. and there is no need to "reclaim" the pan flag or change its meaning. what's wrong with women, nonbinary folks, and men? because "it makes nonbinary a third gender"? it doesn't though, and it's not like there could be infinite stripes for all the different nonbinary genders.

because "some pan people relate more to regardless of gender"? that doesn't make it "better" because plenty of pan people don't. and like, a flag's meaning doesn't actually have to be or include the label's exact definition or an individual's personal definition, as there are many definitions of each label and they can't all be shoved into the meaning of a flag.

panphobes say "pink for girls and blue for boys? ew" but don't say shit about the trans flag. or say "the pan flag has pink for girls and blue for boys and yellow for ~that other gender~" when that's not even where the creator was coming from. people projected so much shit onto the creator, and when that got debunked, they projected onto the meaning. it just feels like people are grasping at straws for reasons why the pan flag shouldn't be used and the exclusionist flag Isn't Bad Actually.

(the creator even tweeted last year about how people claiming the flag's meaning is a "gross oversimplification" of pan is ridiculous and ?????? and that people can just say they don't vibe with the flag instead of making shit up to make them look bad to justify not using the flag.)

and as far as not every person using the exclusionist flag because they're exclusionists...........if they don't agree with hating mspec lesbians then why would they use a flag that was created specifically to express exactly that? if they want a flag with a different meaning, they could make their own or find a non-shitty alternative pan flag.

again, any annoyance is general, not specifically at you, anon. and i'm sorry if this feels like raining on your parade, since you were happy to know not everyone uses that flag because they hate mspec lesbians.

#asks #anonymous #long post #pan flag #exclusionism #mspec lesbian antagonism #pan antagonism #& i would just like pan flag ~discourse to not be a thing every single year around this time. like. let's give it a rest PLEASE i'm tired

[posi-pan]

I am so fucking tired of having to search "pan" on people's blogs to make sure they're not panphobic and that they don't hate m-spec lesbians for some fuckin reason, like exclusionists are getting so bold and it's so disgusting

a lot of the time when i see a tweet about something queer related i feel the need to check if they've tweeted panphobic or other exclusionist shit. it's tiring how far and deep exclusionist bullshit has spread.

#asks #anonymous #pan antagonism #mspec lesbian antagonism #exclusionism

[posi-pan]

(You don't have to publish this if you don't want, it's lengthy and I guess I'm just looking for some reassurance than I'm not losing my mind...)

Aren't pan people the expert in the experiences we deal with as pan? I think so! People generally agree that talking over others' experiences with their own labels is bad. So that goes for us, too.

Aren't pan people the ones who will catch panphobic dogwhistles the easiest because some of us are aware it's directed at us and it's bad faith? Absolutely!

With all that said... I've come across a post (that I'm sure someone talked to you about it here before, around February) where the gist of it was a prominent bi talked about typical bi things (and there was no mention of pansexuality) but a lot of pan people caught on the dogwhistles right away. Some digging through that person's blog and there we have... *Babs. Then a bunch of bi people became defensive saying stuff like how it's not about pan, and bi people saying "bi is not transphobic etc" is not a dogwhistle... And that shutdown the conversation and didn't address the elephant in the room: a bi person saying "innocent" bi positivity statements that read as panphobic dogwhistles and this same bi person associating with *babs being just a coincidence and not at all related /s.

So then we have a bunch of bi people unwilling to hear pan people (and other non-bi mspec) and call out anti-pan and anti-mspec sentiments in the bi community, and you have a bunch of non-bi mspec people terrified of the (much more visible and bigger) bi community because of *babs, because of being mislabeled as bi... And everyone is unhappy but especially non-bi people get shunned out and silenced (much like in aspec discourse, trans men/transmasc discourse, and so on).

It makes me wonder if people even know what a dogwhistle is... The point is exactly to be stealthy and look like something completely ordinary and inoffensive... it's literally why it's called that. I wouldn't count on bi people understanding panphobic (or any mspecphobic) dogwhistles because these can come disguised as bi positivity! But I would at least expect them to stop and try to listen, see it from our perspective, you know like... in solidarity with their mspec siblings. And I'm glad many of them do! I just wish it was a community-wide effort.

A lot of the time I feel like the "I'm mad when it's not about me" and "read this manifest/book/article/magazine, it's the bible of <identity>, no I don't care about your, actual, real life experiences" and "well, I won't listen/do anything about it because it doesn't affect me personally" and "well, I'm <identity> and I don't think <thing> is that bad, you're overreacting" are things that are so pervasive in the community, especially from mainstream labels and binary people... like... in some kind of hierarchic, oppression olympics, way and people don't even need to say it explicitly like that... And this is why you see so many new labels, mogai, xenogenders, bi lesbians, etc getting so much hatred all the time. Somehow it's threatening to Certified(/s) lesbians, gays, bisexuals, binary trans people, and it's so depressing... I hate exclusionists. I don't really have a solution. I wish I didn't have to be blocking a lot of panphobes/mspecphobes everyday :( thank you! (I don't mean to be antagonist against mainstream labels btw, I believe solidarity and union can make us all much stronger.)

*Babs are not the only panphobic/mspecphobic types out there, but they're pretty public about being assholes. It could be anyone, really. And unironically, *babs also harm fellow bi people because their rhetoric is biphobic too.

just........everything you said. yes. you are not losing your mind. you are spot fucking on.

#asks #anonymous #pan antagonism #aspec antagonism #mspec lesbian antagonism #trans antagonism #non binary antagonism #queer antagonism #exclusionism #battleaxe bi #dogwhistle/strawman #mspec antagonism #long post

[posi-pan]

honestly … i’m so tired of all the exclusion within our community. i’m so tired of ppl having “dni if you’re pan/a supporter” in their dnis linked to some weird “debunking” post, so tired of ppl sending threats to mspec lesbians, so tired of flag discourse, so tired of ppl saying aspec ppl don’t belong in the community, so tired of the sheer amount of ppl actively spreading terf rhetoric—even despite being against terfs.

it’s exhausting. they keep moving on from one target to another. it repeats itself.

all i can hope is that they’ll learn. yeah, we have complicated relationships with gender and attraction. yeah, we have a lot of labels. sometimes we use “contradictory” labels at the same time bc we feel it’s all that can accurately describe what we’re experiencing. we’ve known this.

we should be embracing one another’s differences. most of us don’t experience our gender and our attraction in the same way, and trying to fit everything into specific boxes is more harmful than anything. we are diverse.

being queer is beautiful, really. it just sucks that so many ppl r still being so hateful towards others for their identities.

thank u for ur blog, though. genuinely. blogs like this are safe spaces for so many of us <3

you said it all 💖💖💖💖

#asks #anonymous #pan antagonism #mspec lesbian antagonism #terf mention #aspec antagonsim #threat mention #long post

[posi-pan]

Id like to know who made the "basicdni" carrd & punch them in the face. Supporting mspec lesbians/gays should NOT be basic dni material & especially not on the same page as "exclusionists" I fucking hate people

i love when people who claim to hate exclusionists are exclusionists lmao

#asks #anonymous #exclusionism #mspec lesbian antagonism #mspec gay antagonism

[posi-pan]

I’ll be honest, I didn’t get mspec lesbians/gays…until I learned about how multigender people use the labels. I’m multigender myself and everyone forgets we exist, and I get how hard it can be to navigate sexuality as a multigender person. When I saw how other multigender people use the labels, it clicked for me.

Because it’s hard, you know? Being multigender rn. People want all nonbinary people to group ourselves under lesbian/gay attraction when it doesn’t always fit us or can even be misgendering and dysphoria triggering. They don’t want to think about how attraction to men and attraction to women aren’t the only attractions that exist. That people don’t have to “pick a side” because others don’t want to think about how complex some nonbinary genders actually are.

In the end, I’d rather side with the people who recognize the variety of nonbinary experiences and acknowledge the existence of multigender people with complicated relationships to the binary and sexuality than the group that goes “categorize yourself with men or women attraction wise or perish” bc they think nonbinary sapphic and achillean experiences are the only ones that count or matter

^^^

#asks #anonymous #mspec lesbian #mspec gay #multigender #mspec lesbian antagonism #non binary antagonism #mspec gay antagonism #multigender antagonism #long post

[posi-pan]

as a queer person (as in, the “unlabelled” kind of queer) seeing all the label discourse and people dragging mspec gays/lesbians through the mud i just sigh and say to myself “the labellers are at it again”. Like they act as if having a label slightly different from the norm is continue completely eradicate a pre-existing label from everyone’s minds? Shut the fuck up. It’s a fucking label. It’s inconsequential in the long run.

I’m sorry if this sounds invalidating or rude I just need to blow off some steam

nah no worries, i totally get it. i'm always like "it doesn't matter!!!!" whenever this shit happens. not in the "i'm invalidating your self-identification" kind of way, but in the "the words other people use to describe themselves literally does not affect your life in any way, shape, or form, so why are you so upset and concerned about it?" kind of way. it's just....such a weird thing to care and get angry about.

#asks #anonymous #queer antagonism #mspec lesbian antagonism #mspec gay antagonism #unlabeled

[posi-pan]

cannot stand when you inform or tell someone theyre spreading terf or radfem shit by saying things like "mspec/male lesbians are lesphobic" or "queer is a slur and should be censored" or "it's so tragic to be attracted to men </3" or other stuff like that, and they respond with "im not a terf tho cuz i support trans people <333 (i just think people who dont conform to my expectations of gender = sexuality should die and are a danger to lesbians a.k.a white cisgender allo perisex women) <33" as though the only thing terfs talk about is their hatred for trans people,,

people need to learn about lesbian separtism becuz those were basically proto-terfs,,and it is just really sad to see the lesbian and overall sapphic community become so blindly welcoming and accepting of this type of shit,,like even mspec women who do identify as wlw and not mspec lesbian are still treated as dirt, as "expendable" or even as that annoying younger cousin who wanted into your secret club so you take pity of them and say "sure, fine, you can join, but don't talk too much" when it comes to the sapphic community and it breaks my heart, it hurts to see this happen, and i cant help but think of the ways i could help fix it, or if its just a fire that should burn until it wears itself out and you just gotta hope it doesn't destroy too many good places,,,

kinda makes me wonder if fellow gays and queers felt this way back when lesbian separtism was a big thing and how they handled it

i love that i got this message after seeing someone get very angry at being told the "q slur" narrative benefits terfs because "queer being a slur has nothing to do with excluding trans people!!!!!" and my first thought was ".......terfs have more than just that one main belief????" refusing to accept that pretty much all exclusionism/gatekeeping either comes directly from terfs or benefits them is wild to me.

and it's always people who think they're being called a terf when it's pointed out who refuse to accept it. like.....you're not being called a terf, you're being informed that you bought into terf shit. reevaluate and move on. it's not that deep. some critical thinking instead of blocking your ears and shouting about how terfs think one single thing and nothing else would be super nice.

but yeah, it sucks. and it sucks that this is all recycled queerphobia. and it sucks that people would rather repeat queerphobia of the past than learn and accept queer history and build off of the inclusive activism and work queer folks before us did.

#asks #anonymous #terf mention #lesbian separatism #lesbian antagonism #mspec antagonism #queer antagonism #exclusionism #mspec lesbian antagonism #long post

[posi-pan]

Hey so my partner doesn't really understand how bi/pan lesbians/gays work and since I'm not the best with words.. Could you explain it for me so I can show them? They don't understand how you can be both bi and lesbian, and they say it feels a lil disrespectful to call yourself a lesbian while being with a man or something. Plus they don't think there's a history behind bi/pan lesbians. They aren't an exclusionist tho! They don't wanna harrass anyone, they're just confused! I thought you'd help!

hope this post helps: https://posi-pan.tumblr.com/post/641517055716294656/okay-so-i-tried-to-search-your-blog-before-asking

#asks #anonymous #mspec lesbian antagonism #mspec gay antagonism #exclusionism #also you don't have to want to harass anyone to be an exclusionist #all you have to do is believe in any kind of exclusionism #there's a difference between genuinely not knowing/being confused and repeating exclusionist lies #not trying to upset you/attack your partner; just wanted to make it clear that one doesn't have to be outwardly aggressive to be an exclus