#like. honestly just block these people and move on theyre either young or wont try to understand | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

medeasfirstborn · 1 year

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Is it just me, or has there been a big pushback against bl lately?

It's not you. It's a lot of western audiences who don't understand how bl originated / how the term fujoshi was used in japan when it started. (Long post under the cut)

I'll link to a post which was really good at detailing the word here. Go read the full thing if you want, there's a lot of interesting points, but I'll highlight my favourite parts (For ref: 🍊 - translator, 🍞 - japanese friend):

🍊 There are a bunch of English-speakers who have a really bad image of the word "fujoshi." Rather than just "any women who like BL" they think it specifically refers only to "cishet women who think of gay men as toys without supporting their real rights, or who ask them invasive questions like who's top/bottom, etc." Of course those types of fujoshi do exist, but the original meaning is just any woman who likes BL―not to mention there are a lot of fujoshi who aren't cishet. Plus it's not even an English word in the first place; it's a Japanese word, so it comes across as looking down on Asian queer media, as in "all Japanese/Asian people are like this, but we Americans are enjoying BL the 'correct' way." I think it's inappropriate to push their own definition onto a word even though they don't even know Japanese.

🍞 I finished reading! That does sound upsetting, yeah. Thanks for sharing. I do agree that there are fujoshi who are not cishet.

🍊 Yeah, even though the topic is centered around a Japanese word, most of the people involved don't even speak Japanese, so it's amazing how confident people feel in making such strong assertions...

🍞 Well fujoshi is something of a self-deprecating term used by women who fall outside of the norm because they enjoy m/m romance. That's really all it meant, at least from the 90s to the early 00s. Men also sometimes used it as a derogatory term.

🍊 Yeah, that's the origin of the word, but instead of "we're 'rotten' because we've failed as women for not fitting into the norm" some English-speakers interpret it as "we're 'rotten' because m/m romance is dirty."

🍞 I can promise that's not it.

🍊 I know, but even if you tell them, they don't listen.

🍞 I was in the literature club since middle school, and my advisor was someone who had been around since the dawn of fujoshi and Comiket. They taught me all about their lived history so I know all this for sure. Why won't people listen...? The enjoyment of m/m romance (at least when the term fujoshi was first coined) created a new type of woman who didn't belong to the cishet female romantic ideal and who actively enjoyed sexual love without concern for others' affairs. They destroyed the concept of passive women who fall in love and are pursued by men, and that's why fujoshi are amazing.

🍊 Yeah, that's why it feels like people are looking down on Japanese/Asian queer culture and history. Or not even looking down on it, but completely ignoring it.

...

🍞 To be honest, I think there's still a lot of sexism among otaku (especially around Western nerd culture that cishet men tend to like, such as fantasy & TTRPGs).

🍊 That's true, there's a lot of sexism in otaku culture... But actually, this time most of the fighting is among fellow queer people, so it's even messier. What would you call this, fighting amongst ourselves?

🍞 It's amazing that people fight over such silly things... It's really sad. Hmm, I guess you would call it infighting?

🍊 Well there's also a difference between American queer culture and Asian queer culture, so the stories we tell in BL are different.

🍞 Oh yeah, I do feel like they're different.

🍊 Yeah, some people think that fujoshi are all part of the oppressive cishet majority, when it's really the opposite.

🍞 No way―they have no idea of the discrimination and contempt AFAB people face in this country for daring to actively enjoy sexuality.

🍊 I feel like in Japan, the people who hate fujoshi are mostly the people upholding cishet society, while in America the people who hate fujoshi are fellow queer people who should be allies but who misunderstand things.

🍞 Oh, it kind of feels like in the 90s or so when the Japanese gay community first became aware of fujoshi. At the time they hated them because they felt like they didn't understand what it was like to be a minority so there was a lot of miscommunication. Fujoshi were called "fumanko" [lit. rotten cunts] and discriminated against. But later on most fujoshi realized it was just an issue of miscommunication, leading to the creation of various works (around then is when a lot of BL started to have more character diversity such as muscular characters or older characters) and eventually bringing us to where we are today. It sounds like the same history is repeating itself.

🍊 Yeah, it's not like I think everything fujoshi make is perfect, and I think it's good to have more dialogue with the gay community, but it's not like nothing has changed since the 90s. But now not only is history repeating itself, to make things worse there's also a language barrier this time lol

...

🍞 The idea of fujoshi who are only into frail bishounen who look like women isn't very realistic (though of course they exist). I also think it's good that there are more scenes where they use condoms.

🍊 Besides, even if they do like frail, feminine bishounen, I don't think there's any problem as long as they respect real-life gay people.

🍞 I agree. That's just a fantasy, after all. On the other hand, I think the gay community in Japan has a big misogyny problem too, so it really goes both ways.

...

🍊 Why does BL have to be more conscientious [in portrayals of mlm]?

🍞 I think it's because women's fantasies are held to a higher standard. At the time (90s), a lot of gay people complained that fujoshi's works weren't realistic, and that they were just a bunch of women's silly games and fantasies. So people have worked hard since then to make more realistic stories.

...

🍊 Oh, but something that's specific to the English discourse around this... Most of the people saying this actually like BL.

🍞 ?? Huh??

🍊 But since they can't read Japanese they don't realize that all of the Japanese artists they follow have "fu" in their profiles. There were some people who got blocked after pointing it out the other day. But it's because to them, the definition of "fujoshi" isn't "any woman who likes BL" but rather "the bad women who like bad BL."

🍞 Oh no, I can't deal with this. It feels like they're contradicting themselves. I also feel like they're also not considering how many gay trans fudanshi (former fujoshi) there are...

🍊 Yeah, so it started as a misunderstanding about a loan word, but people won't listen when we try to clear up the misunderstanding...

🍞 There are also a whole lot of lesbian fujoshi. That sounds super appropriative and racist to me...

🍊 Exactly, so not only is this a similar situation to Japan in the 90s, but there's also a racial aspect on top of it.

...

🍞 Up until the early 2000s there were a lot of fujoshi who didn't really care about makeup or fashion. Then, after being recognized by the gay community as I mentioned, and then being covered more by the media, people developed a stereotype of fujoshi as ugly and gross, and so a lot of them started paying more attention to makeup and fashion (almost like camouflage). Personally I think the history of fujoshi overlaps a bit with the history of feminism.

🍞 Yeah, I think that image [of modern fujoshi being fashionable] is thanks to all the work people have put in over the past twenty years. Well, there are a lot of women who don't really want to wear makeup but are forced to do so by societal pressure, and I think you could say that that pressure is even stronger for fujoshi. Like "if you want to express your sexuality freely, at least have your appearance be feminine in exchange." I think it's ridiculous to have to choose between freedom of either body or mind. In other words, as long as they exist in this world as women, fujoshi can't physically escape from cishet male society. Actually, I think BL was born out of the desire to at least be free in mind, if not in body. You can see that from the use of the word "joshi" implying they're not even thought of as adult women.

🍊 I see... I do think that it's difficult for Americans to understand the discrimination and pressure women face in Japan.

🍞 Yeah, I think so too. Maybe the American otaku community doesn't understand how hard it is for women in Japan to freely express their sexuality, or what it's like to not even be able to get angry at or sue for discrimination or harassment. Maybe they don't understand the fear of existing not as a man, nor even as a woman ruled by male society, but as an even lower class than that. I've been watching foreign gay media since I was a teenager, and I was always envious of how freely they seemed to be able to express their sexuality.

Anyway, as 🍞 pointed out earlier, there's a lot of weird racist undertones to the specific hate directed towards bl. It's made worse when white people think they can write better BL without being 'problematic' by virtue of...being white? I guess? Lmao. (Yes I'm talking about that lame ass heartstopper thing, as well as the recent rise in white people plagiarising danmei or claiming they can write danmei/wuxia/xianxia instead of...writing a gay story based on their own culture?)

A lot of it comes with people wanting to be morally superior over having an opinion because people want to feel good and right about things but wont bother to put in the effort to learn about it because thats too much work! And they know their opinion is the morally right one anyway 🙄!

The fact is it doesn't matter what your opinion is! A lot of BL/Yaoi works are queer and tell unique stories. And a lot of them are also just idealised porn. And it's ok! Because both are a self indulgent thing or a way for creators to express and explore their identities.

Are there some people who will fetishize mlm relationships and be annoying as fuck about it (the true sin)? Yes. But that is not at all the majority. Also like idc if you want to sexualise mlm or wlw relationships tbh like, explore what you want just be respectful to irl people (and people online). The fictional things you explore are not real do what you want who cares. This has no bearing on your real life lmao.

Like. Is it important to reflect on why you consume certain works over others and your relationship with that genre? Yes of course. Not for anyone else's opinion of you but so you understand yourself better. But also if you find you are uncomfortable with certain depictions in fiction that's totally okay! Just don't be a dick about it and mandate others share your views. And if that bothers you so much maybe get offline for a bit and go do something else. Social media turns so many people into being more mean spirited than they would be irl.

Also I would encourage ppl to read this translated article that was originally written in by a Japanese person who was harassed by lots of english-speaking users on who they follow. Please understand, most east asian artists don't care about whatever western audiences are talking about when it comes to any sort of bl/ship discourse, they only want to draw what they want and not be harassed:

Favourite screencap from the article:

Extra (Yaoi political compass) - This is funny:

#like. honestly just block these people and move on theyre either young or wont try to understand #discourse #i guess?#most southeast asians also dont care either btw (me) ✌#fujoshi #asks #anonymous

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not-a-space-alien · 5 years

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hey its me again wall of text sorry not sorry

k i saw your little treatise justifying zadr and yknow its a cartoon its not the worst thing ever of course nobody is gonna sue you for reblogging fanart or burn you at the stake or w/e and im glad you decided to open yourself up to a differing opinion but zim IS portrayed as an adult. there was even an unfinished episode where zim’s childhood and growing up training from start to finish would be shown so by the time of the pilot he is definitely a full grown developed adult by irken standards especially if hes a former member of an elite military force like the invaders. jhonen has said that the irony and sad comedy of zims character is that hes a grown ass man and a war veteran to boot who VOLUNTARILY goes to an elementary school every day and throws hands with an 11 year old boy who should be well below his notice because he’s that pathetic and desperate for validation that he’ll stoop to seeking it from a child. it also sets up a dynamic between them where dib is CHALLENGED by having to go up against an adult with way more experience than him while dib is just a child, so when he wins its more meaningful, which is a common trope in childrens fiction that an underdog young hero has to take down a powerful adult villain.

jhonen might joke a lot but he’s serious about this part of the characterization of zim and dib and he even went to great lengths to make dib look and act more like a kid in ETF (more emotional and naive, designed to look smaller/softer, going in depth with his relationship to his dad and sister and needing his dad to protect him at the end when he’s too overrun to fight alone) just to drive home the point of how young he is. it was a very deliberate move and jhonen knows what hes doing ESPECIALLY since he also left zim pretty much unchanged and also includes gags about zim’s relative maturity like animating him briefly grimacing because his joints are sore and the part where he pretty much gestures to his crotch and goes “theyre afraid to look at ALL-A THIS”. like you would not see jhonen do that sort of joke with an underage character ok. dont confuse his social awkwardness and self deprecating/trolling humor for not knowing the difference between right and wrong and not acknowledge when he means something sincerely because he doesn’t just clown on people and troll ALL THE TIME 24/7 hes a human, and times have changed with more awareness on issues such as the grooming of minors so he can go back on things he may have said in the past that he doesn’t agree with now or said by mistake. he has said enough times that zim is older than any human alive that its safe to take his word for it by now. judging by the one strip he did in JTHM about johnny murdering a pedophile who was about to prey on squee i think his stance on protecting kids is pretty clear. also i wouldnt put it past jhonen to have redesigned membrane to be more chaddy looking to divert the adult fandom’s attention away from dib and throw the fangirls a bone but thats a whole nother can of worms lol.

and the justification that zim is immature so hes essentially on dib’s level is a reversal of something lots of kids hear from either creepy or ignorant adults who tell them theyre “so mature for their age”. no matter how emotionally mature you are it wont ever compensate for the number of years youve been alive so that’s not very sound logic, and even in fic where theyre both adults it’s still pretty weird because it doesn’t erase their history where zim knew dib as a kid. that’s sort of like a grownup waiting with bated breath until a kid is “legal” so they can start dating. kinda like when jacob imprints on bella’s newborn daughter in twilight then having it handwaved away by saying he’ll wait till she’s grown up, which understandably drew a huge amount of criticism. it’s a loophole that might be mildly acceptable in some cases but the context leaves it colored with a residual ickiness that sets off some red flags for me and a lot of other people.

also you said zim is an alien and therefore the situation itself is unrealistic, but the reason invader zim’s writing resonates with people is because zim is written with very HUMAN emotions and motivations and part of the humor again is how irkens despite being aliens from another planet mirror some of humanity’s worst flaws such as being petty, gluttonous, willfully ignorant, arrogantly believing they are special and better than everyone else, easily manipulated by propaganda, all too eager to greedily colonize other societies etc making them not so different from us at all. so the premise out of context might not seem realistic but the idea of a sad burnout adult who doesn’t realize how humiliating it is to be consistently outsmarted by a kid less than half their age IS realistic and applicable to human interaction since we’ve likely all met someone like this before at one point in our lives for example a schoolteacher who has a personal vendetta against one or more of their students and has nothing better to do than antagonize them, or a really dumb parent that you fight with a lot.

another thing, i know you and other fans probably have a lot of sentimental value and nostalgia attached to zadr because you probably shipped it back when you were a kid yourself and you cant be blamed for something you liked as a kid, but youre an adult now, and you have to listen to the portion of kids in the fandom who dont like zadr and say without question that the age gap makes them uncomfortable. those kids ARE the priority. we’re grown up now and we have to put our feelings aside for them because that’s part of being responsible and mature. i feel like zim himself is a pretty good example of how not to act at our age [shrug emoji]

and anyway a lot of the same elements of zadr can be explored with zadf just as well with just as much potential for cute moments and as a bonus is it’s not creepy

You do bring up some good points, and I’m not saying you’re wrong... But honestly I’m still not convinced. I mean, stuff that Jhonen said, the thing is even if it’s the author saying it it’s still outside of canon, that’s the reason why Neil Gaiman got flack for Good Omens because they didn’t write an actual kiss or hug or hand-hold between Aziraphale and Crowley yet Neil Gaiman went on Twitter saying they were queer representation. I still don’t really put much stock into what he says because the unfinished episodes and Jhonen’s commentary don’t really change the dynamic that’s actually in the show. And again...Jhonen said if there were going to be romance in the show it would be Zim/Gaz, so he’s either a huge hypocrite or doesn’t view Zim as being incompatible with Gaz.

I do think it’s much better when Dib is an adult and it just makes more sense, and I actually do prefer zadf to zadr and if i were going to ever write fanfiction or make fanart it would probably just be zadf, just because i know this does have some stuff to think about and I totally respect that you have a different view of it, but i honestly just don’t see it that way. The analogy with Jacob imprinting on Bella’s child in Twilight isn’t really the same thing honestly. The author in that situation tried to make it not......that....by saying that imprinting isn’t always a romantic relationship thing, and that Jacob would be more of an older brother, but honestly that doesn’t really negate the impact of grooming that kid would have with Jacob around. The idea that Zim would somehow be grooming Dib seems really silly to me although you’re right, I think his characterization in Into the Florpus has evolved somewhat especially with regard to Dib wanting to get his father’s approval, but again Zim has parallels with that in trying to please the Tallest. the world-building and characterizations are inconsistent and scattershot at best. Like no, zim isn’t waiting for him to turn legal, that’s absurd, they’re nemeses coming at each other then learning to be friends. You’re right that that doesn’t have to be zadr but I still tag it as zadr so people can block it if they want to.

Like, I’ve seen people ship Zim with Professor Membrane instead of Dib. That seems very weird to me. that professor membrane would have a relationship with someone who literally goes to his son’s elementary school and who doesn’t know anything at all about human behavior and emotions.

I feel like with this discussion people don’t really understand the problem with age gaps. With age gaps, it’s not a matter of mature/immature, it’s about development. A ten year age gap sounds like a lot right? a 25-year-old and a 15-year old would absolutely have a predatory “relationship.” But a 35- and a 45-year old, that’s perfectly fine. Having a difference in age doesn’t automatically make the relationship unhealthy. so if Dib is 25 and Zim is [whatever the hell aliens years i still don’t really take Jhonen’s word for it bc he’s not consistent], that’s doesn’t mean it has to be bad. The thing about telling minors they’re “so mature for their age” to try and convince them that a person interested in them isn’t a pedophile is that we know a human being who is 15 isn’t developmentally at the same level as a 25-year-old regardless of their behavior. What is Zim? All we have to go on is how he acts, and he acts like Dib is an equal match, it’s not “he’s immature for his age,” it’s very unclear. Raw number of years isn’t the ultimate decider, for example in DnD lore elves reach maturity at, like, 100 years old so a 25-yo human trying to get with a 50-year-old elf would be predatory to the young elf even though the “younger” one is technically twice as old as the human. Do you see what I’m saying?

I also don’t really buy the idea that Invader Zim’s writing resonates with people because Zim is ~~so human~~. The guy steals a bunch of kid’s organs in one episode and flies into a tantrum over the slightest inconvenience. You have to be reading really deeply into it and dig into some old internet archives of things Jhonen Vasquez has said to paint it as realistic. You can do some interesting things with it wrt like, Zim being defective and starting to experience human emotions but that’s mostly fanon.

Well, you’ve given me some things to think about, thanks for explaining your side to me. I’m still going to tag things as #zadr so people can block if it can’t plausibly be categorized as zadf. I’m not actually making any fan content for Invader Zim so the point is kind of moot, but if I ever do I’ll definitely take this into consideration.

#invader zim #zadr #submission

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comicteaparty · 5 years

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December 20th, 2018 CTP Archive

The archive for the Comic Tea Party chat that occurred on December 20th, 2018, from 5PM - 7PM PST. The chat focused on Goddess of Paradise by Dee S. / Beedee.

Featured Comment:

Chat:

RebelVampire

COMIC TEA PARTY- THURSDAY BOOK CLUB START!

Good evening, everyone~! This week’s Thursday Book Club is officially beginning! Today we are discussing Goddess of Paradise by Dee S. / Beedee~! (http://paradise.bluedubia.com/)

Remember that Thursday discussions are completely freeform! However, every 30 minutes I will drop in OPTIONAL discussion questions in case you’d like a bit of a prompt. If you miss out on one of these prompts, you can find them pinned for the chat’s duration. Additionally, remember that while constructive criticism is allowed, our focus is fun and respectfully appreciating the comic. All that said, let’s begin!

QUESTION 1. What is your favorite scene in the comic so far and why?

my favorite scene so far i think is when eridu runs into ekka. it was nice to see a character actually be happy to see her after a slew of eridu running into charas who dont really care all that much. and i just think its a good balance in general to all the hard truths eridu has woken up to.

although my second favorite scene admittedly is probably when she meets amun. just cause amun is gonna win all those awards for being lazy and laid back

but in general i liked how casually amun reveals that nah bro, its been 1200 years of slumber. as if its no big deal (which tbf for gods probably kind of isnt to a degree but still XD)

mathtans

My favourite scene was near the start of Chapter 4, with the human encounter. In large part because there was mention of a "dead human", making me think "wow that took a dark turn"... then it turned out she wasn' t dead and there was the whole "ick" factor, that wasn't dark at all.

Nice sort of twist, is I guess what I'm saying.

I also do like the Ekka scene though. In part because of my tendency to enjoy yuri ships.

RebelVampire

ah that was a hilarious moment. where eridu is basically treating the priestess like shes some dead insect or roadkill. but i also like within the comedy you see a really blunt and significant view into how she views humans

mathtans

Amun was cool, it was a good way to advance the plot, I'm not always keen on the laid back types though, heh.

Yeah, roadkill's kind of a good word the way that happened. ^.^

It's really interesting the way it's developed in first person overall too.

Reminds me a bit of a picture book, but the first person is a different take on that too.

RebelVampire

for the record you mean 2nd person. first person is "I do this thing" second person is "you do this thing"

but yeah this is probably the first 2nd person comic ive run into. im interested to see where it goes cause 2nd person is generally the more difficult pov to make work but theres also a lot of potential for creative stuff

mathtans

Oh yeah... that type of person.

Totally. I'm not sure how else you'd do it either, aside form having captions blocking the art. So this works.

RebelVampire

yeah it does work. although i also like that the comic has tons of silent moments that just let the visuals speak for themselves. because these are definitely some gorgeous visuals!

mathtans

That's true too. Also neat how some things stay the same while characters or other items appear.

RebelVampire

yeah it really helps draw your focus.

another scene i really like is when eridu shows up back on the island and all the green sprouts. cause its beautiful imagery. but im also haunted with questions about what happened to those two people who were watching

mathtans

Oh yeah, that was great. Goddess of amazing entrances or the like - though we saw the real one later on. ^.^ In retrospect, I feel like that made sense too, with humans being a footnote that she hadn't even expected to be there.

Though I do wonder about them too.

Maybe they were worshippers.

RebelVampire

maybe. although thatd be ironic if that sudden overgrowth killed them then

died for their beliefs

worshipped too hard

mathtans

True. Though I'm not sure death will really be a thing in the comic.

Feels like that was averted.

RebelVampire

maybe. id for sure say there probably wont be onscreen death.

probably

well violent death

mathtans

Unless it's one of the older gods maybe.

RebelVampire

QUESTION 2. After a 1200 year slumber, the Goddess Eridu finds the world quite different. Besides people being on her island, what else do you think will be a culture shock for Eridu? Do you think she’ll be able to adjust to all the changes, or will she refuse to accept them and continue to try to return the status quo? What do you think the other divine aspects have been up to over the years? Do you think more will be glad to see Eridu, like Ekka, or will more act like Amun and not care? Do you believe Eridu will manage to gain back her divine powers, or will something prevent her? Overall, how do you think this journey might change Eridu’s perspective on her divinity, on humans, or anything else? What will that change (or lack of change) mean for Eridu’s future actions?

mathtans

I wonder if technology exists on a world where Gods/Goddesses are just wandering around.

RebelVampire

depends on how we want to define technology. like for instance back when the world was young a loom would technically count as technology just cause it was a machine for advanced tasks.

im gonna laugh if eridu gets to a village and like theres electric lights everywhere. and she flips a light switch on and off wondering how humans came upon such magic and which god gave it to them

i feel regardless technology would advance

since if eridu can be considered a look into the average god/goddess than they probably mostly just ignore humans

unless theyre like "man i feel like being worshipped today"

mathtans

Well, that's a fair point. I guess I feel like if you can just ask a god to turn on the lights, there's not much need to do the inventing.

I also kind of wonder if one of the divine aspects is what put Paradise to sleep in the first place. Like, maybe was in league with that Enki new God type.

Unless Enki turns out to be a posturing human that the divine aspect was using as a puppet or something.

RebelVampire

dang now thatd be an interesting twist

mathtans

Also, this is a small island in the middle of nowhere. Maybe the mainland is rather different in terms of society.

All about the twists.

RebelVampire

this is also a large possibility. i considered that too. that whatever the island is it might not be representative of the world. honestly it could be argued the island has more old world values even cause theyre the only ones with a shrine left

Beedee

ahhh sorry I'm late! I'm reading up. hello people!

RebelVampire

hello~!

but yeah the twist, i just wouldnt think itd be possible cause the divine aspects are like parts of herself. so itd be hard to imagine one getting powerful enough to oust her. but that is what would make a twist like that so interesting cause it seems so unlikely

i think as far as the aspects though were gonna meet more amun's than ekka's XD not necessarily as laid back as amun, but more like they moved on in life/got bored

mathtans

Might not be old world values as much as it's just new gods have taken over everywhere and they haven't gotten around to dealing with the island yet.

I kinda thought about the parts of self thing... but isn't there a part of ourselves that we sometimes hate, and wish we could get rid of? And the Goddess doesn't seem like she'd be the nicest person to that part of herself, maybe. Though who knows, I may be way off.

I wonder if some of the others might also be asleep, or be serving other goddesses or something.

RebelVampire

the impression im getting is theyre all in their inner sanctums. so cant exactly serve anyone if theyre stuck there. and i also doubt they would cause i dont get the impression they think eridu is dead

thats like declaring loyalty to the assistant manager while the manager is on vacation

mathtans

Maybe they left voicemail at the inner sanctum and are wandering sans powers?

Fair enough though. There'd need to be incentives.

RebelVampire

but idk i mean could be possible

theres a lot of room for variety cause weve barely scratched the present day surface

Beedee

these are some good theories dang

mathtans

Also not sure how her perspectives will change... given how a few days can't wipe out decades of personality. Would need something monumental.

RebelVampire

i like to think shell at least come to view humans differently. or her role cause generally losing powers has the effect of humbling some one

QUESTION 3. The largest mystery presented in the story is why Eridu slept for so long. Who do you think forced Eridu (and her spirit aspects) away from the physical plane? What do you think the reasons were? Was it someone trying to do away with Eridu, or was it for some larger, greater good purpose? Does whoever Enki is have something to do with it? Or is Enki just some innocent bystander who was mistakenly identified as the one who created Eridu’s island? What do you think will happen when Eridu finally runs into Enki? Also, considering Eridu was already forced away from the realm, do you believe this could easily happen to her again? What is stopping the culprit from banishing Eridu back?

mathtans

(I think I'm belatedly realizing that's the creator. )

RebelVampire

lol thats okay math. yes @Beedee is the creator

mathtans

Losing powers can do that. I wonder if flying is a thing with other gods.

Beedee

haha yes I am~

mathtans

I feel like Enki is more an opportunist than the one who engineered everything or totally innocent. Though we've yet to meet him.

Kind of like the Wizard of Oz, in a way?

RebelVampire

i definitely think thats a distinct possibility. im on the page enki isnt this malicious entity and i dont think enki is responsible for what happened to eridu

mathtans

I do feel like Goddess will get all up in his face though.

RebelVampire

but maybe enki is no one. maybe hes just some human who found the island and said "hey my dudes lets live here this island is great." and then as history usually goes stories got exaggerated and eventually a human of great deeds became a god

mathtans

Oooh, maybe. Like, he doesn't actually exist anymore but put lots of things in place so people wouldn't realize that. (Makes me think of some societies from Star Trek.)

RebelVampire

yeah or something. but i could go either way. or it could be a combo of both

either way i dont think enki is responsible

to me it seems more likely kur is responsible at this point

for kicking eridu out of the physical planes

cause he needed her for things later

tho its curious she doesnt remember getting kicked out at all

Beedee

I find it interesting that you both get a vibe that enki isn't responsible even though he hasn't shown up yet :0

mathtans

I guess I just feel like that's too obvious of a solution. Goddess blaming the person who's actually behind it. I expect a twist, like how there weren't originally humans on the island.

I hadn't considered Kur as having a part in it. That's interesting.

Beedee

heh, fair

mathtans

Crazy theory time, the Priestess human is actually a God in disguise!

RebelVampire

yeah im with math. enki is the obvious choice. thus more likely a red herring. which could be wrong. maybe enki is all bwahahaha i have taken over

the priestess was responsible!

mathtans

Who has lost her memory and forgets.

Enki could also be the one behind it, but he was told to do it by Kur, or someone else.

Incidentally, I like the map feature. That's clever. Tracking the path over the island.

Beedee

ahh thanks!

mathtans

(I mean, story guide, not really a feature, but still.)

I often go to those pages, I'm rubbish with names.

RebelVampire

even if i remember the names i love those sorts of pages for spellings. cause i read a lot of comics and its hard to remember how to spell everyone's name even if i know what it is XD

mathtans

That's fair. Also neat how it's being developed over time.

RebelVampire

i like to think the reason eridu was sent away was not to do away with her. like maybe eridu did something bad she doesnt remember (or didnt consider bad). like flood some other god's island that got too close to hers. only that island was heavy populated already.

mathtans

Oh, that's a thought. Or maybe someone else did something bad and she wanted to forget it. Said sleep until I don't remember, didn't realize that'd take a few centuries.

RebelVampire

QUESTION 4. Eridu’s arrival seems to coincide with several “coincidences” within the story. Why was the Dragon-God Kur also slumbering for at least 1000 years? Is it somehow related to Eridu, or was it for a separate reason? Why has Kur woken up early? Also, what is Ekka making for Kur that he even goes to the effort of sending Eridu to help get it? Further, we see a few other gods talking about Kur. Why is Shulsa seeking out Kur so desperately? What exactly could go “badly” that Zida leaves to prepare for it? Also, who is Daiard looking to settle a score with? Lastly, why do you think the priestess of Enki was conveniently near where Eridu crashed? Was that just a coincidence, or was she there for a related reason to Eridu?

Beedee

good question

mathtans

Kur forgot to hit the snooze alarm. Or whatever the equivalent is. (Oh, maybe that's what they were bringing to him...) I'm also not sure what to make of the interlude. Does make it clear that there are other Gods around, the Priestess wasn't making things up or delusional or something.

Maybe Enki told the Priestess to go there because of all the vegetation.

RebelVampire

i think the interlude does kind of prove other gods are around.

now that im thinking of it

mathtans

Yeah, helps to flesh out the island.

RebelVampire

kur just woke up from a 1000 year slumber and the first thing he does is to sit down and kind of take a nap before eridu shows up

which i identify with

maybe the 1000 years is just normal for kur

thats just how long he sleeps

his 8 hours so to speak

Beedee

I will quickly say: yeah that's just how long he sleeps

mathtans

I kinda got that impression from the fact that they knew when he'd be awake. More or less.

Though it could have been a prophecy or something.

RebelVampire

man i wanna sleep for 1000 years

so jealous

mathtans

Incidentally, I liked how Kur was built up to be this ancient amazing entity, worthy of awe, only to have Paradise say, yeah, nevermind that nonsense.

Beedee

haha

at the end of this session, if you are up for spoilers, I'd actually be willing to show the WIP last panels of this chapter for a short amount of time. it explains some of Kur and Ekka's deal haha

mathtans

Aw, it's not Ekka and the Goddess jumping on a mattress?

Beedee

maybe in a side comic lmao

mathtans

I was amused by the reaction to the failed stripping too.

RebelVampire

i enjoyed eridu's disappointment that they werent gonna have sex. just cause it was so blunt. XD

mathtans

Like, ow, my chest. And yeah, that upped the rating, I think

RebelVampire

maybe daiard also hates enki. cause to me the obvious choice is eridu. so im gonna go with enki. everyone is gonna join forces and go after enki

and enki is gonna be like "hey friends would yoou like some tea"

Beedee

haha

to be honest

mathtans

Enki, actually God of Tea.

Beedee

daiard was a dumb callback to the beginning of chapter 2, that became worldbuilding(edited)

mathtans

New crazy theory: Goddess actually ends up putting herself to sleep in the past because the divine can mess with space-time.

RebelVampire

thats brain hurting

Beedee

oh gosh

mathtans

It was all a plan to help her become more grateful, or something.

RebelVampire

hmm, this actually makes me remember that eridu thought shed been sleeping to recharge. maybe there is no villain. maybe eridu just overexerted herself to the point she forced her own self back

shes gonna go on a long quest only to find out she was the villain all along

Beedee

future Eridu goes back in time to punch herself in the face

(thisisajoke)

mathtans

Hah! I could see that though, like "shape up, self".

Also, recharging could be a thing. Maybe she just needs a good nap to be able to fly again too.

RebelVampire

nope this is canon now. future eridu very wise. /shot

i hope she finds the flying having divine aspect soon and gets her powers back. cause man those inner sanctums seem really inconvenient to navigate

cause i dont think ekka's was any better than amun's

ekka's was just more convenient cause a plant taxi picked eridu up

Beedee

true

the sanctums are all awful to navigate on foot

but I like drawing environments lmao

RebelVampire

they are beautiful environments too. i really enjoy the contrast between ekka and amun's sanctums

mathtans

Anyway, this comic does hit a lot of the things I enjoy, from an interesting narrative style to great environments... and some romance too. (edited)

Beedee

thank you ovo

mathtans

Maybe Ekka and Priestess are the real ship.

RebelVampire

COMIC TEA PARTY- THURSDAY BOOK CLUB END!

Sadly, this wraps up this week’s Thursday Book Club chat for now. Thank you so much to everyone for reading and joining us! We want to give a special thank you to Dee S. / Beedee, as well, for making Goddess of Paradise. If you liked the comic, make sure to support Dee S. / Beedee’s efforts however you’re able to~!

Read and Comment: http://paradise.bluedubia.com/

Dee S. / Beedee’s Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/bluedubia

Dee S. / Beedee’s Ko-Fi: https://ko-fi.com/bluedubia

Dee S. / Beedee’s itch.io store: https://bdubia.itch.io/

Dee S. / Beedee’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/Beedeebia

Comic Tea Party- Thursday Book Club

Next week’s Thursday Book Club will be about Inhibit by Eve Greenwood / evegwood. For participants, you have the next week to read as much of the comic as you would like~! We hope to see you on Thursday, December 27th, from 5PM to 7PM PST for the chat in #thursday_bookclub!

Comic’s Main Site: http://www.inhibitcomic.com/

Comic’s Webtoons Mirror: https://www.webtoons.com/en/challenge/inhibit/list?title_no=40462

Comic’s SmackJeeves Mirror: http://www.smackjeeves.com/comicprofile.php?id=147115

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