#kotor critical

[nateofgreat]

"If the Jedi are so great why do so many of them fall!"

Over the course of the George Lucas movies, there was a grand total of two defections (Dooku and Anakin), two. Broadening it to include all the movies there're five or so in the Sequel Trilogy if you count the unconfirmed theory that the Knights of Ren were also former students of Luke's.

So, that's about seven defections out of 10,000 in the movies themselves. But okay, when people talk about this they're usually talking about wider canon. So, everything I've personally seen put together there's...

-Bariss Offee (dang it Dave) and Pong Krell from the Clone Wars.

-Bode Akuna from Jedi Survivor.

-Baylan Skoll from Ahsoka.

-The Grand Inquisitor from Rebels.

-And Reva Sevander from Kenobi.

So taken altogether the Jedi are shown to experience about seventeen defections over the course of the movie era. Again, out of ten thousand members. Pretty good ratio I've got to say. The average organization of that size would have more turncoats.

The only case of mass defection I've seen in SW canon personally is in the confused, biased, and cynical world of the KOTOR games. Which made so little sense even by its own logic that they eventually had to write up some excuse like, "Oh uh, actually Vitiate/Valkorian/whatever mind tricked Revan!"

So I personally wouldn't even count it. As for the reason why these defections happen, it's pretty simple. Temptation, they give in to fear, to anger, pride, etc, and let it corrupt them. It sucks but it's something everyone struggles with varying extents.

#Star Wars #The Jedi #The Jedi Order #Pro Jedi #Jedi defense #In defense of the Jedi #anti jedi bashing #The Original Trilogy #The Prequel Trilogy #The Sequel trilogy #SW Rebels #TCW #KOTOR critical #KOTOR criticism #anti KOTOR

[crowhoonter]

One of the best parts of KoTOR 2 to me is how it subverts the typical Star Wars trend of having the main character be the center of the universe. In most things Star Wars, especially the movies, everything revolves around the main character, and granted, that is partly because they will be our main protagonist, but also it specially focuses around them. Anakin Skywalker is the single most important person during the prequels, almost everyone plans involve him in some way, and his actions define almost everything else that happens. This trend continues in the other trilogies, with the Skywalkers being the main focus.

KoTOR 2 is similar in some aspects to this, the Exile is undoubtedly the center of the story, and their actions influence everyone else to the extreme. The subversion of this is that the majority of the exile's influence doesn't take place during the game arguably. It happens far before it.

The Exile is responsible for almost every one of their companions major neuroses. Your actions have defined everyone, if not always directly, and played major parts of shaping them into who they are by the time of the game. The way it plays out, it's like a sort of "afterword" of one of the movies. You experience the fallout of the actions and decisions you made, the result of being the center of the universe, and it is very rarely pretty. KoTOR 2's companions were broken by your actions, and now you have to mend that break.

Basically, I really love that KoTOR 2 shows the how being the most important person ever would really play out, and its incredibly destructive consequences. Its a really cool subversion of the typical Star Wars formula.

#star wars #Knights of the old republic #Kotor #kotor 2 #kotor ii #the sith lords #the jedi exile #jedi exile #meetra surik #I really love this game #feel free to criticize if you find anything wrong with this #I was just thinking about this in the shower a bit

[soundlesslament]

Broke: Revan is a Sith.

Woke: Revan is a Jedi even in the dark side route, because all her life was sacrifice - nothing was done for her own gain but for the goal of protecting the galaxy, which could only be achieved through using bloody and cruel methods.

BESPOKE: Revan is neither a Sith nor a Jedi regardless of what route the player chooses. In fact, Revan stands in the middle as a representation of what force-sensitives could be if they weren’t bound by the two orders' polarized extremes. This ties in with Kreia's worries in the second game that the Force makes sensitives fight each other (to achieve balance between the extremes) and her admiration of Revan (who stands in actual balance). In this essay I will-

#Blogger Laments #Star Wars #KOTOR #Revan #Darth Revan #(I will accept criticism but you already know I am right.)

[gwarden123]

Like, for all Cere saying “While you’re alive, you always have a choice” Cal doesn’t really seem to have much motivation to do all this beyond *shrug* *indistinct noise*. It’s not like the game gives him an option to go be a farmer, or something, and his goals seem pretty vague. Like, he’s going to gather potential Jedi, then ? restart the Order ?, then ??, and ???, ?????, then DEFEAT THE EMPIRE!

I know the story takes some twists and turns, found family, the journey you wanted was inside you all along, yada yada, but I wish he had something he was striving for beyond “I don’t know, didn’t have anything better to do, I guess”. Give him a separate mystery to solve, or a memory he wants to unlock, or something.

#jedi: fallen order #story criticism #it's still a likeable game #I'm not complaining about that #I was just trying to think if it's meeting the same standards as kotor #if kotor is Star Wars but an early-2000s rpg is Jedi: Fallen Order Star Wars but a late-2010s soulslike #and I don't think it quite meets that #not that kotor is perfect #it's dated #and janky #and is remembered with more heavily rose-tinted glasses than people realise #but I think it hits the feel of Star Wars the first one better than Fallen Order does #maybe because what a Star Wars movie is has changed a lot since 2003? #I think the legacy of that first movie has become a lot more muddied and dented than it used to be #in 2003 you could point to a prequel and go 'not that' #whereas now there's a lot more exhausting bullshit clumped up around Star Wars #a lot more weighty expectations #I guess the story does feel like a Star Wars knock off from the early 80s #but it does feel like a knock off #mimicking but not quite replicating #it's not a terrible thing but I would prefer some motivation #a case of more competent execution making a thing overall worse perhaps

[allronix]

Summary: A Jedi protectorate world populated with Sensitives has to plan for much worse outcomes than your average Republic world. The process of creating a broadcast for the worst case scenario of Telos proves to be the breaking point for Saul and Carth.

TW: Mentions of mass suicide

Finally broke the writers' block! Huzzah!

This was inspired by the web video analog horror series called Local 58 and it got me thinking about the horrible stuff that a world like Telos would have to think about that other planets might not.

#kotor #star wars #jedi critical #carth onasi #saul karath #knights of the old republic #local 58 #tw self destruction

[jediexile]

people saying “rip bioware” today as if it hasn’t been dead and dying for years

#fond memories of playing kotor as a teen #sigh #bioware #bioware critical

[zenjestrr]

if there's one thing I really really really hope BG3 *doesn't* do is respect the canonicity of Abdel Adrian

#for those who don't know #they did to the player character from Baldur's Gate 1 & 2 the same thing they did to Revan from KOTOR #aka canonize them as a white human man in the novels #so unless they do a thing where we find out Abdel Adrian lied about being the Bhaalspawn #or did some magic fuckery to rewrite history to usurp Gorion's Ward #I don't want them to canonize the classic BG protagonist #just let it be vague as hell since I already know they're going to bring up the protag of the first two games at some point #considering we have at least 2 returning party members and they were critical to the history of Baldur's Gate the city

[sanguith]

Clip of some really impressively dynamic dialogue from ep. 5 of Andor. Who wrote this dialogue I need to know cause I gotta send them a love letter and tell them I've watched the scene ten times over now. And the actor for Nemik is doing such an incredible job.

#star wars #star wars andor #andor spoilers #If you showed this clip to someone and told them it was from a star wars show they might not believe you. #LOOKS LIKE STAR WARS: ANDOR FANBOY RANTING IS BACK ON THE MENU BOYS #sw positivity #lol #When did you last see dialogue like this in a SW live action piece of media. this is (old) KotOR levels of good. #characters who actually feel like real individuals with their own dynamic personalities and not personified action figures #listen im questioning if im ever gonna be able to look at preexisting sw media the same way again after this show's over #i mean it's up there in writing quality with true detective. chernobyl. the terror. bcs&breakingbad. fargo tv series. early game of thrones #& all those other critically acclaimed and actually memorable shows because of how unique they were #this is gonna be one of those shows that i rewatch a few times a year just to get to experience it again aint it #okay fine ill add the tag #sw negativity

[bittershins]

andor is the root for my star wars interest since like. February. But also fault cannot be denied re: mark Hamill gender envy

#iiiiiiiiiiiiiii wish #cannot find the gif I had saved where he ruffles his hair #sw #GOD #Also I find it incredibly interesting how many different genres star wars explores and alllllllll of the different thematic facets #it can explore #like andor is incredibly neat with its anti fascist and anti-authoritarian stances and it pacts absolute punches visually #vs. the like. ~weird~ political state of the prequels #vs. the novelization of ROTS which FULLY leans into the tragedy element #or the first two seasons of the mandalorian wherein that post empire timeline/guy who knows FUCK ALL aspect #is played well #I wish I liked videogames so I could play KOTOR or Jedi fallen order #and the thing is #I knowwwww it is making Disney fuck loads of money #but at the same time it leaves so much room to explore different thematic stories #like rogue one and the prequels are both tragedies!!! but they handle themselves completely differently #the force related storylines feel so epic #whereas the storylines of something like andor explore elements of tension/weight that the previous stuff hasn't really had space to handle #with more grounded and socially critical elements

[nateofgreat]

Since Baylan's revived the whole " It's an endless cycle of war caused by the meanie Force :( " nonsense I'm going to bring up the same points I did with Darth Traya.

Ahem.

-The "cycle" actually just refers to different authors writing different Star Wars stories. Stories need conflict and thus usually revolves around the Jedi fighting the Sith or another evil force. It's a storytelling trope, not a commentary on the nature of the SW universe.

-The "cycle" (if we insist on calling it such) is honestly not even that bad because the Jedi win everytime and there's centuries of peace after each victory they win. So if there's a cycle at all it's that good triumphs over evil.

-Baylan's method of "ending the cycle" requires him to do the same things that (in his eyes) perpetuate the cycle in the first place, in his case, he's helping restore the Empire when he could help stop it and thus prevent the cycle from continuing in his lifetime.

-The Force doesn't perpetuate the cycle because the Sith abuse the Force; they're not guided by it like the Jedi are. And the Jedi the ones who always restore peace every time. So the logical outcome to the Force being killed is actually more war with all the planet killing weapons we see popping up.

-The Force isn't an alien entity that's inflicting itself upon the Galaxy as presented in KOTOR 2 by an egotistical writer who seems like he's afraid of anything spiritual. it's present in all life and dying is described as becoming one with it. So if you killed the Force, everyone would die, and death is described as becoming one with the Force so I fail to see how that would help.

It's easy to take an innocuous storytelling trope and feign complexity by slapping the word "cycle" onto it. But really the whole universe has to be built around it for it to be effective. Like say the Dragon Dogma's universe, it doesn't work when you shove it into a universe like Star Wars.

Now I'm with a character in-universe having stupid ideas about how everything works but I don't trust modern day Lucasfilm to not present him as being in the right.

#Star Wars #anti Ahsoka series #Ahsoka critical #Baylan Skoll #anti Darth Traya #anti Kreia #KOTOR critical #KOTOR criticism #anti KOTOR

[gwarden123]

Actually, I also really like that all the environments have normal ways to get around, but also have opportunities to do all the Tomb Raider parkour shit to swing from trees and chain together platforming bits that just feels like a nice way to let you mess around with gameplay mechanics without having to go find Dedicated Gameplay Area.

#shadow of the tomb raider #I remember I was bitching about this game when I started it #and then I played Jedi: Fallen Order and now I have nothing but good things to say about it lol #I only got a few hours sleep last night after working until three this morning so my critical capacities might have taken a bit of a dent #I do genuinely think Tomb Raider has more interesting level design that Jedi: Fallen Order though #Fallen Order can be pretty at times but everywhere feels so thinly realised and just fucking empty #and not in an intentional way like kotor 2 #like you're a videogame character playing around in an empty box empty #and I think I would have been happier with it if it had been less realistic and more stylised

[allronix]

Apparently in the disney EU there are no Jedi Service Corps. While their legends depiction was suspect making every single initiate grow up to be a master diplomat and warrior, (die, or leave the order entirely) doesn't really seem like an improvement to me. Thoughts?

The Service Corps are a VERY thorny piece of Legends; both super interesting and grossly underutilized. I’m not surprised Disney cut it because it does present a sticky spot. 

It answers a very good question of what to do with the “leftover” Sensitives. Maybe they got injured in the line of duty and can’t really fight anymore. Maybe they just have no capability to swing a saber. Maybe they were found at the ripe old age of ten and past the cutoff. Maybe they found someone with a high Sensitivity and some cognitive impairment. Whatever.  There are going to be people who are just not cut out to swing a saber, but still want to serve the galaxy in some way. It also keeps them more or less safe and monitored by the Jedi so they aren’t exploited or dabbling in Sith artifacts. 

In theory, the Corps is a really good option. In real life, a Knight needed anywhere from 300 to 1000 people to support the workings of his manor, make his armor and weapons, breed and care for his horses, make tools, grow food, etc. The Jedi, having access to droid labor, probably don’t need THAT high of numbers, but we’re still talking a lot of working class people needed to keep their organization running; administration services to handle the mail, droid and equipment maintenance, growing their food, medical techs because these dudes see a lot of combat, etc. And if you weren’t suited for the Knight, then maybe you could be a damn good blacksmith or healer. 

In practice? Oof. The way it seems to be handled is treating it as a punishment, a place to send the fuckups and failures, a stigma that hangs around for life. You can be the best botanist in Agricorps, and some punk ass Padawan is still going to look down their nose and call you a failure. The official memos call you “valuable contributors,” in the same way official memos from Corporate call the minimum wage staff “valued team members” with the corresponding amount of respect. Maybe guys like Yoda would actually respect the Corps and their work, and it’s more likely that the working class of the galaxy would see and benefit from the Corps and not really the Jedi (who were serving the galactic elite) 

The Order “adopted” you, tried to train you for one job, and if you can’t do that job, or there are no available Masters to train you, they toss you out on your ass or into the ranks of the Corps with nothing more than a garbage bag for your stuff.  (Obi-Wan and Mical got this treatment). So much for happy, fluffy family.   

And then we get to Telos. Again, probably overthinking it because of the Onasi boys, and why Revan was the only Sith smart enough to see a potential gold mine with these “failed” Sensitives.  But there was a key part of Kreia’s description of the planet that stuck with me and it possibly the most terrifying part. Her wording was that initiates who failed their training were sent to Telos to “seed” the planet with “farmers and laborers.” She’s always very precise with her word choices, so that suck out, and brought to mind a very UGLY possibility. Force Sensitivity runs in families,  but Jedi are not able to have acknowledged offspring. And if the Corps “peasantry” are not subject to the “no attachment rule” (I mean, they have a colony to build), it would make a chilling amount of sense that the grain and meat aren’t the only thing being grown and harvested on Telos, given that the KOTOR era was not a shining time for Jedi ethics...

(And yes, if you want to go there, that adds so much more UGLY to Carth and Bastila sniping at one another in KOTOR)

Now, given all that luggage, I’m not surprised Disney does not want to go there. Their labor track record is not great in real life, and the classism implications would not be something they’d want near shiny space fantasy. 

#jedi critical #answer #KOTOR #Carth Onasi #Jedi service corps

[incorrect-kotor-quotes]

Replaying KotOR II for the first time in years, I gained a better appreciation of the story after taking the time to realize it isn’t the dark, edgy breakdown of Star Wars people have claimed for two decades. Like Atton’s saying “Jedi are pacifists except in times of war, they’re teachers except when it comes to telling their students the truth, etc.” is always presented by some fans as a scathing criticism of the Jedi. It could be, but this time, I finally saw the quote in context: Atton was having a guilt-ridden mental breakdown. Trying to justify his hate towards the Jedi after the Exile spent the game proving him wrong at every turn. All it took to gain Atton’s approval, and the approval of the other potential apprentices, was being kind to people. Then the conversation ends with Atton wanting to become the Exile’s Jedi apprentice. This is much more interesting than my earlier impressions or the “good and bad are both bad” message some people see.

#kotor 2

[andiinaraethtash]

*slides into your mailbox with lightsabers and blue cookies* I have this idea of Paul getting Percy a lightsaber as a wedding present because not only is he marrying Sally, he’s also stepping up as a father and for the family moon, they go to Montauk and have a lightsaber duel while Sally roasts marshmallows watching her two boys get along and is happy because Percy gets to be a kid

I love the idea of Paul stepping up, he is the best, I love him so much.

Also I'm taking this as permission to rant about @itsybitsybatsyspider and my au, which just. Buckle in, it's a long one.

So it's very much a "Percy Jackson in the star wars universe," type thing, but like. Non-specific in terms of when in the timeline it takes place? I've kinda got it in my head that it's after KOTOR/SWTOR, but before the high republic.

So the idea is that the twelve Olympian gods are the twelve Counselors, with Zeus being the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order. All the rest of the gods have their different rolls related to their areas of power. Eg, Demeter is the Gardenmaster, Hestia is like. Jocasta Nu in terms of her role? She maintains things, though she's not on the Counsel. Similarly, Hades is the Head of the Jedi Shadows, and he sat in on a lot of the meetings when he was on planet.

Percy is a young (ie, like. 14) Force-sensitive who gets brought to the temple. He eventually gets apprenticed to the Nautoluan Jedi Master Po'Seiden (I should mention that in this au, Percy is half-Nautolaun. For absolutely no reason. Totally has nothing to do with the fact that Master Po'Seiden visited his home planet 15 years ago AND met Sally, no sir, not at all).

Anyway, he meets and immediately irritates young initiate Annabeth Chase, who's been trying to get Master Athena's attention so she'll be her Master. Percy's impertinence is getting in her way of being chosen as Master Athena's Padawan.

So naturally they get pulled into an adventure, and end up becoming fast friends, and share a friend in the (possibly part-Deveronian? Tdb) Grover Underwood, who's Master is a Seeker, finding young Force-sensitives and bringing them to the Temple.

I'm not sure how the Lightning Theif works exactly? But the basics stay the same: Zeus's weapon--a beautiful golden-white duel-bladed lightsaber--has been stolen, Zeus suspects Percy (reasons unknown) who then has to try to track down Jedi Master Hades, who's suspected to have had a hand in it. Only they find out that HIS weapon has been stolen as well, and both end up in the hands of Master Ares, a Zabrak who held the dubious honor of being the most aggressive practitioner of Djem So in the Order. He gets put on probation, especially once it's learned that he has been influenced through his dreams by the long-thought-dead Sith Lord Kronos.

As has the recently-knighted Luke Castellan, though by the time they realize that, it's too late. He's completely Fallen. It had been a long time coming; one of his crechemates and longest-time friends had been critically injured during a mission, and had been left behind on Zeus's (her own Master!) orders. Thalia had been rescued by Grover and his Master, but it was too little, too late. Thalia was so close to dead no one really had any hope.

We haven't quite decided whether Annabeth does get apprenticed to Athena, or to Chiron (who might be a Wookie, might be one of Yoda's species. Again, tbd). But she does get a Master by the end of it!

So Percy is half-Nautolan, and has a sea-green lightsaber. Itsy has art of him, but I don't wanna share it without their consent. (Also i want to let them share their thoughts.) But like. He has gills, which aren't readily visible, so Annabeth freaks out the first time she sees them in action, because they look like his throat has been slit in multiple places. Percy mostly uses the Force to manipulate his environment, eventually learning to make earthquakes.

Annabeth, meanwhile, is at least mostly human, who uses a shorter, bronze lightsaber, made mostly from components Luke had gifted her. The crystal, I think, is hers, just by nature of how kyber crystals work. She's very agile, using the Force to leap around and move quickly enough to get close enough to end her enemies before they can react.

We have a whole thing planned for SoM, sorta a plan for BotL, and some idea of how TTC would go. But if I keep going I'm gonna make myself so worked up I'm gonna be awake all night. Lemme know if you have questions! Also bug Itsy if you wanna.

#dude there are so many ideas for so many things its great #also full credit to the creation of this idea goes to itsy #they masterminded the concept and i helped generate more ideas #we made ourselves feral over it

[modwyr]

10 characters/10 fandoms/10 tags

i was tagged by @valeroyeaux (<3 <3 <3). tagging @glamfellens @captaintiny @sun-marie @amatres @foxantoine @wardenhowe and any one else who wants to and hasn't already been tagged <3

edér teylecg (pillars of eternity)

brienne of tarth (asoiaf)

artemy burakh (pathologic)

odysseus (the odyssey <3)

vex'ahlia (critical role)

captain janeway (star trek: voyager)

atton rand (kotor ii)

james flint (black sails)

magdalene druckeryn (pentiment)

alistair theirin (dragon age)

#in no real particular order #also restricting it to one per fandom is so hard :( #not being able to name cat or jaime is so evil </3 but brienne is numero uno #i'm gonna hit post and remember like 1000000 characters i just know it #tag game

[renesassing]

Unprompted opinion but gosh oh boy I wish they would give up on the Kotor remake and just make Jedi Series games set in the Old and High republic

no but you're so right bestie. jedi survivor already set up interest in the high republic era and it being the 'golden age' for jedi so to speak.

i really don't want a kotor remake. well that's a lie, i do want a kotor remake in that way anyone wants to see something beloved from their childhood get a fresh shine to it. i am a huge remastered halo 2 and remastered metroid prime enjoyer. emotionally, i just want the same exact game with better graphics and animation. i dont even want player dialogue. but i know i can't really get that, so i'll take the remake. my big issue with a remake is that kotor is just so incredibly... dinky. dated. some of it is a solid yikes. other bits are incredibly banal. morality is super black-and-white, and most dark side options are evil the way an 80's cartoon villain is. and that's all fine for a 2003 video game, but in today's era of a lot of video games having complex, emotional stories, i just can't really see an rpg like kotor having wide appeal. more than that, i can see studio execs being worried about kotor having wide appeal and changing things. and i am very worried about what those changes will be.

and it would be nice to see star wars continue to branch out into new stuff. i have criticisms about the writing of the jedi games, but honestly they had a dedication to worldbuilding that i really enjoyed, especially in survivor. id love to toss a team of dedicated people like that into the high republic era and see what they come up with. i dont really?? want a old republic game that much?? bc i feel like then we'll get a lot more "rehash expanded universe lore" stuff and im tired of that.

unless it's a zayne carrick game. id play that.

#answered stuff. #but i have to endure a remake barton and haab will be the balm that soothes me