#daemon and nettles

[ride-thedragon]

Daemon Betrays Rhaenyra.

This discourse has been here since I started posting so I should explain.

Daemon does, in fact, betray Rhaenyra when he saves Nettles and his subsequent actions in more than one way.

1. He doesn't punish the Mootons for their treason.

The Mootons are given a direct order from their queen to kill Nettles. They conspire and plot about ways to avoid the order, to carry it out, and possible consequences for that. By the end, they decide to disobey her and give the letter to Daemon under the false pretence that they hadn't seen it. They are made aware that the queen has a suspicion that Nettles is a witch charming the prince and still do this. None of this is known or punished, and they declare for the Greens.

2. He allows Nettles to escape.

When Daemon reads the letter, he stays with Nettles for the night and watches her escape on dragon back in the morning without interference. Choosing to leave Maidenpool and go to Harrenhall instead of what Rhaenyra called for, his urgent return.

3. He does not return to Rhaenyra.

By not returning to Rhaenyra, he disobeys and betrays her. By letting Nettles escape, he disobeys and betrays her. Nettles is specifically tied to his survival in the narrative. Without her at his side, it is impossible for him to survive.

4. He fights Aemond, Alone.

So he dies. The bards and I have a misunderstanding because of this (fuck the bards) but Daemon himself says that neither one of them can take Aemond on and survive. He chooses death.

We can argue over why he did it, but in the written narrative, the only catalyst we have is Nettles' departure. Before that, we can see his expression go from happy and them small talking to him, genuinely distraught by the letter and staying with her for the night.

Saying that this is only because of Rhaenyra fundamentally misunderstands one point:

The catalyst for the Battle Above the God's Eye is Nettles' departure. Before it, Aemond evaded Daemon, and Daemon stayed at her side. Both in the book and more so the show, known reactionary Daemon Targaryen would not have hesitated to prove himself, at least bringing her to the court to prove their loyalty.

#hotd #house of the dragon #daemon targaryen #rhaenyra targaryen #nettles asoiaf #nettles #a song of ice and fire #netty #daemon and nettles #daemon and rhaenyra #anti this point #this isnt bias this is genuine concern over comprehension skills #caraxes screech should fill you in on who the cry was for #im all for an au where daemon is a good person but thats not the written book or character #ATP call and spade a spade

[kataraavatara]

i hate, hate, HATE when nettles “fans” say something along of “omg nettles got Daemon to leave his Valyrian wife for her 💅she’s just that girl” because IF (and I mean IF, because Daemon + Nettles is a highly contested claim within the text, so stop treating it as fact) IF Daemon and Nettles were together, this makes Nettles a victim, not some kind of girlboss. She is a teenager and he is an adult. “Haha she was so much better he left Rhaenyra for her” that is a tragedy, not a flex. How are you a “fan” of her character if you are cheering on something bad happening to her? The answer is you’re not, plain and simple. You do not care about her!!

#anti…do they have a ship name? dettles? naemon? netmon? #anti dettles #nettles and daemon #nettles #nettles F&B #fire and blood #daemon and nettles

[horizon-verizon]

The fact that there are people who sincerely ship Nettles & Daemon, while bashing Daemyra for being grooming is... baffling. They would therefore find it normal / synonymous with great romance for a 49 year old man to have a romance with a 17 year old girl (I believe that George never positively represented this type of age difference) who does not uneducated and always lived on the street, how to stand, eat, dress, wash, etc. and who Norren would have father/daughter vibes... Like, wtf? That would just seem quite bizarre and unhealthy. Most find it as an excuse that Norren misinterpreted the relationship because he doesn't really know Daemon... No, but lol. Remember, we're talking about people claiming that Daemon groomed Rhaenyra. And these people claim to know the character of Daemon. 😂 Daemon is a gray character, there's no way I'm interpreting him as abusing Nettles, or even having a romantic relationship with her. Literally, what romance?! The things associated with them can be easily interpreted other than in a romantic and or sexual way, between the historical context and even simply the characters and their characterization as well as possible development. It amazes me that so many people are convinced that there is a great love story between these two, when there is not much about them in the end. We have the questionable testimony of Mushroom, the fact that they took baths, in the platonic section, and where Daemon actually teaches Nettles to wash, so well, people are free to necessarily see that as sexual, even if it's a little weird in my opinion... A lot of people argue that no, Nettles was old enough to know how to wash, so it wasn't platonic but uh... We're talking about the girl who lived alone and on the street all his life. How do you realistically want her to have a healthy lifestyle? And the fact that maybe, or not, they shared a bed. But even then, it's not enough to confirm if there was sex between them. And I'm not even talking about that moment when Caraxes breaks the windows when Nettles leaves and everyone sees the proof of an ultimate love when we don't know what Daemon has in mind at that moment. . I always saw Nettles leaving as a breaking point for Daemon after all the shit he's been through since the start of the war. Like, the extra drop that makes it implode. But I could never see them as romantic or sexual.

For me, the Nettles & Daemon relationship was both father/daughter, mentor/student, friends, companions/comrades in war.

They ship Daemon x Nettles because they hate Daemon or/and Rhaenyra for being Targs, having incest and dragons (meanwhile the Westerosi lords have the greenlight to marry first cousins), for being Alicent's enemy (meanwhile Alicent is a misogynist, power hungry person who targeted a 10 year old and never stopped), or for Rhaenyra's nonconformity to gendered codes of conduct within a feudal patriarchy (thinking her a betrayer to her house, a slut, ugly for her weight, refusal to treat her siblings as siblings [Alicent's fault], etc -- misogyny). Meanwhile they do not realize that they are supporting a feudal patriarchal mindset or that GRRM himself writes against patriarchy and bastardry's value through how after Rhaneyra women in Westeros like Jeyne Pool, Alys Karstark, Asha Greyjoy, and Cersei, even Targ women like Maerys, have it much worse than if Rhaenyra had been allowed to rule. I mean, Jon Snow! Have people forgotten that they love him?!

Most do not have knowledge of the nonprivacy medieval people would be used to. Or they do not care because they already believe that Daemon is the groomer and pedophile of the story despite:

a pedophile targets a child with the awareness, mind and knowledge that their target is a child (Daemon approaches Rhaenyra for her position and attractiveness; Rhaenyra was considered an adult by age 16 and inherited the actual right to rule Dragonstone like any other lord with their land and like every other noble girl she would have been married if her father had a mind to it....which he does, seeing as he marries her at 17 to Laenor, who was 20)

many examples of older men marrying younger girls in arranged marriages both in real life medieval history and in Westerosi history: Daenerys Targaryen [15] and Maron Martell [40]: Corlys [37] and Rhaenys [16]; Maegor I Targaryen [13] and Ceryse Hightower [23] --- which shows they know nothing of ASoIaF or how GRRM writes (he usually writes negatively of huge age gaps but he doesn't write negatively of age gaps in general and he always writes the gaps in context of their political circumstances)

so the thought of Daemon possibly not grooming a single girl or going after them for their recognized childhood is inconceivable to them.

Or they believe Mushroom when he says Daemon "taught" Rhaenyra lessons and had sex with her out on the rocks of the Blackwater Bay....meanwhile Mushroom also says that he was there at times with D and R, participating , that he has a huge penis (several times) AND he could never have been at those rocks to witness for himself what D and R were doing....please.

#asoiaf asks to me #hotd fandom #fandom commentary #fandom critical #asoiaf fandom #rhaenyra targaryen #hotd comment #daemon targaryen #fandom misogyny #daemon and nettles #daemon and nettles shipping #asoiaf shipping #rhaenyra i #hotd #asoiaf

[darklinaforever]

About Nettles and Daemon in Fire and Blood, when it says he treated her like a man treats his daughter, but then it's reported that they apparently took baths together, people tend to all immediately use this aspect to prove that he slept with her. Off, it is quite possible that the two simply had a close and strong platonic relationship. Sharing baths does not necessarily mean SEX. Even the story says that this element does not prove that they had relations, although obviously the story (quite anti Targaryen I recall) seeks to guide us in this belief. Not to mention that this aspect of the relationship was reported by servants, and believe me, I've seen enough historical series to know that servants tend to extrapolate / distort certain things, even in other cases outright invented them to fuel discussions to have something to talk about. But even if he took baths with her, that doesn't necessarily mean they slept together. Not everyone has the same conceptions of / the same relationship to nudity.

#daemon #daemon targaryen #house of the dragon #the rogue prince #daemon and rhaenyra #daemon x rhaenyra #daemyra #rhaenyra #rhaenyra targaryen #rhaenyra x daemon #rhaenyra and daemon #Nettles #daemon and nettles #nettles and daemon #daemon x nettles #nettles x daemon #Fire and Blood

[hamliet]

What do you think of Daemon and Nettles's relationship?

Is she Daemon's bastard daughter or is she his lover?

I kind of answered that here, but I am genuinely not sure she was either. I get why people assume one or the other, with the affair being the most common assumption.

However, I feel like both interpretations fall back on cynicism and are weak when it comes to what they offer the themes of the story and our understandings of the characters. To be fair, Martin can be quite cynical, but he's still a Romantic, and there's probably a reason he left it unconfirmed. Readers can decide what the story means for each of us.

That said, I genuinely think the themes of the story offer a completely different take on their relationship, one that is far more hopeful and yet sad than either of these. I'll paste what I said in the linked post here, as well as the textual evidence for it.

The tl;dr is that I think Nettles wasn't his daughter and wasn't his lover, but instead a child Daemon was trying to do right by. I'm very open to being "wrong," but I don't think we'll ever get any sort of confirmation either way, and I can back my theory up with the text just as well as those other theories, so.

When the text mentions rumors (which I’ve been paying attention to as I reread ASOIAF), it’s usually NOT one or the other, but usually a mixture of the two with some unknown third component there.

The problem is that both of the two options severely weaken a different theme.

Like, if Nettles is his daughter, that reinforces the idea that magic is only for a certain bloodlines, and while there is some truth to this in ASOIAF, it’s not fully the truth, and it seems very very odd to me that George would stick to this one fantasy trope and not deconstruct it like he usually does. Tyrion is most likely a dragon rider in ASOIAF alongside Jon and Dany, and it is much more powerful if he is not a Targaryen.

As for the more likely option–cheating–also weakens the themes because again, a queen is not paranoid and losing everyone if she’s right. I’ve seen some speculate Rhaenyra didn’t write that letter, but it is most likely that Rhaenyra did write that letter, because in a tragedy, she must bring about her own downfall. The problem is that it is a lot less thematically powerful if Rhaenyra is right about Daemon cheating on her.

The most powerful thematic option is if Daemon just saw a kid who had power and tried to protect her from the war. Maybe trying to get some insight into her powers, maybe not. But he loses Rhaenyra in the end because of her own inability to trust, and then what does Daemon do? He decides to essentially die tragically defeating Rhaenyra’s most formidable enemy: Aemond and Vhagar.

When there’s no love left, there’s still duty towards a queen.

Like, no, of course that isn’t “couple goals.” I’m not saying it’s some great fantastical romance that we should all swoon at. But I’m also saying that it is true that Daemon’s life was defined by love, which is way more thematically consistent with Martin’s works than “bad guy do bad thing.”

#ask hamliet #daemyra #daemon targaryen #hotd #fire & blood #nettles #daemon and nettles

[amuelia]

Daemon Targaryen and Nettles / Aemond Targaryen and Alys

#asoiaf #fire and blood #daemon targaryen #aemond targaryen #nettles #alys rivers #valyrianscrolls #a song of ice and fire #my art #2024

[atopcat]

Super worried about how they’re going to handle Nettles, my only hope is that the show makes parallels between how Daemon groomed teenage Rhaenyra to how he interacts with another teenage girl.

I want a scene where Rhaenyra realises the kind of monster Daemon has always been. This man would openly insult his “bronze bitch” older wife whilst fawning over his 14 year old niece. She’s the new Rhea Royce whilst Nettles is the new her, that realisation should hit like a ton of bricks.

Would honestly add so much more nuance to the story rather than it being Angry Wife vs. Teenage Mistress.

#rhaenyra targaryen #nettles #team black #Rhea Royce #house of the dragon #hotd #hotd meta #anti daemyra #anti daemon targaryen #hotd spoilers #asoiaf meta #1k #valyrianscrolls

[bohemian-nights]

People really are missing the point of a character like Nettles. Being the a non-Valyrian dragonrider is what makes her different(in every positive definition of that word) and helps to serve a larger purpose in this story.

Valyrian blood is not special. It’s not needed to do great things. No one is special because of what family they happen to be born into.

A non-Valyrian Nettles shows that we are more than the circumstances which we are born into. Our birth, our names, and our very blood does not define us. Our actions are what do. We can overcome so much and rise to become absolutely extraordinary with a little bit of determination, patience, and a dash of help along the way. Nettles exemplifies that to the fullest extent.

She's more than a Black Valryian. She doesn’t have to be Valyrian. She shouldn’t have to be Valyrian.

She’s a survivor. She’s a final girl. She’s a Black low-born girl likely without a drop of dragons blood that tames a wild dragon with patience that killed countless others who had dragons blood. She survived the Dance where others high and low alike fell and perished to become a firewitch to the Burned Men.

Her legacy is immortalized in the history books(and by the Burned Men cause they still worship her) as one of the last(if not the last) dragonrider(s) before Dany all without having any known Valyrian ancestry.

#nettles doesn’t need Valyrian blood to be great #nettles #hotd #hotd spoilers #nettles asoiaf #nettles f&b #hotd fandom critical #bncommentary #hotd commentary #nettles characterization #🐑🐉 #house of the dragon #netty #she’s not daemons kid guys #the dates don’t align for that but keep trying it #surprise surprise most of the ones cheering this crap on aren’t black themselves 🤦🏽‍♀️ #I see what’s happening here which is ironic because any other time she isn’t Black #but now she is because you can use that #how does having valyrian blood benefit nettles at all #how does it add to the story GRRM is trying to tell #she can be valyrian but it shouldn’t be requirement #that thinking is backwards #what did tyrion say? never forget who you are wear it proudly #nettles likely isn’t valyrian let’s be proud of her claiming a dragon without dragons blood #nettles is great because she’s nettles #no dragon blood required and I love that 🙌🏽

[lady-clouves]

Daemon and Rhaenyra’s relationship not only embodies what a grooming relationship looks like but also with how it progresses once the minor grows up. Not every person who was groomed is going to admit that it happened to them because it make the situation so much more real. And sometimes the person who was groomed doesn’t even realize that it happened to them until years down the line.

And the saddest part about their relationship and people who are in similar relationships in real life almost always go back. Because that person has been with them through their entire life and has quite literally seen them through thick and thin(even if the abuser was the cause behind it all) and it make the victim believe that the abuser could never be a bad person. We see that when Daemon celebrates Aemma and Baelon’s death by toasting Nyra’s brother as, “Heir for a day.”

Then Daemon goes on to steal the egg she chose for her brother and effectively take over Dragonstone-the castle of which she is now Princess of. And when he comes back to court after being away for four years at war she just forgives him since he’s the only person she has left at court. Even years later, when Harwin and Laena are both dead and Laenor is becoming increasingly depressed because of his sister’s death, Rhaenyra goes back to Daemon because she’s associated him with a relying hand who can help her at court.

She’s so convinced that he’s only looking after her to the point that when he starts an affair with teenage Nettles, all Rhaenyra thinks is that it must have been Nettles who ‘lured’ Daemon into her bed and sends word that she wants Nettles killed.

#I might have missed something but my point still stands #asoiaf #hotd #rhaenyra targaryen #anti daemyra #anti daemon targaryen #nettles asoiaf #anti nettlesxdaemon #queen rhaenyra #pro nettles getting far away from this family

[ride-thedragon]

NETTLES AND RHAENYRA, CHARACTER FOILS.

Because I'm not an English teacher

So the question is, How is Nettles Rhaenyra's foil?

1. Appearance .

Rhaenyra is a pretty standard Valyrian beauty. Silver locks, purple eyes, quite pretty, later on in life we get the change that she didn't lose the wait after giving birth to her kids and becùase of misogyny, her beauty has faded. Features like her long hair worn in the style of Visenya and so on are also mentioned. It's giving the Realm's delight in a real sense (not the weird sense).

Nettles, on the other hand, is juxtaposed as 'ugly'. She's brown, is skinny, has crooked teeth, a nose scar, and has short hair.

The maesters like to play to damn much, basically. But they are described as almost exact opposites. Short and long hair, skinny and fat, white and brown skin, purple and brown eyes, etc.

The narrative purpose is to ultimately show their different upbringing and places in this society.

2. Status

Rhaenyra is shown to be the princess, heir to the throne and queen throughout the book. No matter what happens with her, the security and privilege she has almost always goes over what other women have. Her only real threat is the men (and book Alicent) who have personal stake in her not ascending her throne. She's also entirely spoilt as princess and heir by her father and more so her uncle.

Nettles, on the other hand, is introduced to us as an orphan from Driftmark. We're told she could've been a thief and a sex worker by the time we met her. She has no name, lands, titles, or family that we are presented with in the narrative and her backstory for better or less is a patchwork of what her life was possibly like on Driftmark.

Unlike Rhaenyra, we don't follow every salacious rumour and really don't know much about her past.

3. Dragons

Rhaenyra’s dragon Syrax was a cradle egg hatched to her, a Targaryen custom. She's also the youngest dragonrider at 7 I believe.

Nettles claims her dragon at no older than 16 years old. He is a wild dragon (a distinction given to hatched Targaryen dragons that haven't been riden and live away from the keep) and slaughters many before she claims him.

4. Virtue

The notion of virtue in asoiaf is extremely complex, especially with these two women and the vastly different backgrounds. But virginity and speculation also develops both their characterizations in the narrative.

Rhaenyra allegedly "sleeps" with Daemon to practise what she wants to do with Criston (she's 15-). In the show, it becomes obvious that she almost sleeps with Daemon and officially sleeps with Criston. Either way, promiscuity and naivety are written into her character. The only point of conflict is who is involved with what happened in these instances less than what happened. Later on her promiscuity is brought up when Ser Harwin Strong is said to be the father of her first three children.

On the other hand, Nettles' sexual promiscuity is given to her in the narrative. The claims of her being a whore or sleeping around with shepherds are claims made by men who don't know what she was doing at that time. Men who made similar claims about Rhaenyra and their involvement in her loss of virtue as well. Where these stories differ is in Maidenpool, where the assumption of promiscuity is given a different voice.

This time, maids are alluding to an inappropriately close relationship between Daemon and Nettles (yet again, he finds himself here).

5. Daemon

Speak of the devil, and he will appear.

His dynamic is important to these women and their place in the narrative. Saving one dooms the other, leaving with one isolated the other. His decisions ultimately affect one while benefiting the other.

The cruellest example of this dynamic is him letting Nettles go after being the reason she is trapped in the narrative and ultimately dooming Rhaenyra by choosing to kill Aemond instead of going back to her.

His dynamic with both was also comparable with gift giving and quality time and even inappropriate relationship he developed with both of them, notably around similar ages. ( Both these relationships have significant power imbalances).

Between them both, his affection to one affects the other detrimentally.

6. Jace

Specifically in reference to his death, it's notable that within the narrative, while Nettles is described as crying by herself in response to his death, Rhaenyra is hardened by it.

Also, as symbols for legitimacy and legacy, Jace is the reason Nettles is recognised as a dragonseed, and Rhaenyra's line is secured as her first born, but in his absence, Nettles is delegitimised and said to be not a dragonseed. Around that time, Rhaenyra is beginning to be questioned by all the men around her as well, whereas before, Jace was a notable voice in decisions.

7. Dragons in the End.

They both meet their 'end' in the narrative with Dragons. Rhaenyra is killed by her brother's dragon Sunfyre burns and eats her, killing her in front of her son.

Nettles, however, escapes the narrative on dragonback, with the stories that follow explicitly explaining how dragon fire protects her and leads her to become a deity for the burned men.

8. Children

In the narrative, Nettles has no children. Children would explicitly be a burden in her described circumstances as a mouth to feed and someone else to care for. Effectively, children would trap Nettles in a cycle of poverty and inability to experience ethe freedom presented in the narrative.

Rhaenyra is expected to have children to secure her legacy and reign. Children, especially sons, would be her greatest benefit to ensure her ascension to the throne. They are her biggest strategy and losses throughout the war because of that reason.

This dynamic carries out to a head with the death decree for Nettles. The possibility that she would have a child by Daemon is a definitive reason that her 'treason' calls for her head. A child would give her a claimant but also be proof of infidelity by Daemon. It would be a slight to Rhaenyra’s pride and grief as she at this point has lost 4 children during the war.

9. Loyalty of men

This is one of the most interesting for me because the disloyalty of men for Rhaenyra meant the loyalty of men to Nettles. When the Mootons decide not to kill her, they are traitors to Rhaenyra. When Daemon lets her leave, he's a traitor to Rhaenyra. When Corlys stands up for both her and Addam, he's treated like a traitor. Furthermore, the Mootons turn to Aegon’s side directly after because they did not obey her for two reasons, Nettles being accused and sentenced without trial, and Rhaenyra wanting them to break guest right.

Within the narrative, at that point, loyalty to Rhaenyra was a sentence on Nettles' life, and loyalty to Nettles was treason to Rhaenyra.

Conclusion.

In other ways, like the impact of their legacy, the symbols of their identity (dragons), other ways that their narratives with Daemon (the stories) play out and so on juxtapose these women against each other in the narrative. Age and innocence in both a meta and narrative sense also play into Nettles being a foil for Rhaenyra’s character. Personally I think the reason ts written that way is for Nettles to cause a Stark difference in behaviour with men like Daemon and the Mootons as well as to show the contrast of what is expected and what is to be done and what actually happens.

Hope this helps 🩷🤎

#hotd #house of the dragon #nettles #nettles asoiaf #netty #a song of ice and fire #rhaenyra targaryen #queen rhaenyra #rhaenyra x criston #rhaenyra x daemon #nettles and sheepstealer #sheepstealer #syrax #the mootons #character foils #stop the propaganda #why would George put a character in that could be taken out easily #thats not how writing works #unless you're me #yall are acting dense and ik yall know better #dont play with me #daemon and nettles #daemon x nettles #nettles x daemon

[daemonxnettles]

Maester Norren writes that "the prince and his bastard girl" supped together every night, broke their fast together every morning, slept in adjoining bedchambers, that the prince "doted upon the brown girl as a man might dote upon his daughter," instructing her in "common courtesies" and how to dress and sit and brush her hair, that he made gifts to her of "an ivory-handled hairbrush, a silvered looking glass, a cloak of rich brown velvet bordered in satin, a pair of riding boots of leather soft as butter." The prince taught the girl to wash, Norren says, and the maidservants who fetched their bath water said he oft shared a tub with her, "soaping her back or washing the dragon stink from her hair, both of them as naked as their namedays."

Fire & Blood🔥

#nettles #dettles #daemon x nettles #daemon targaryen x nettles #daemon targaryen #netty #nettles x daemon #nettles asoiaf #nettles f&b #asoiafedit #hotdedit #nettles fancast: Sophie Wilde #hotd #bnedit #bngifs #house of the dragon

[horizon-verizon]

Green stans rambling about how they hate Rhaegar but also saying they have nor problem with Daemon and Nettles will never make sense to me... not that anything they say makes sense. They hate Rhaegar for having sex with a 14-years-old girl and abandoning his sickly wife and their children... but still want to see Daemon prey on a Black teen girl and abandoning his grieving wife and his children. They really have nothing in their big ass heads but reflexive contrarianism.

Just saw a post on Twitter about Daemyras hating Rhaegar (I refuse to call it "X").

Lyanna was 16, not 14. Not much better, but it reveals a continuous tactic green stans (or just shows ignorance) use to demonize any person of the black faction or allegiance, usually a Targ.

Green stans do this assumption of age/lowering likely ages to Gwayne Hightower as well, saying he was 14 in that joust with Daemon and ignoring how 14-16 year knighted boys were pretty uncommon and how there is no SOLID proof that Gwayne was 14 when he participated in the joust when Cole (not Daemon) canonically unhorsed him. While Cole was 31.

Back to Lyanna. Yes, it's eternally frustrating to see this double standard they make. I have a tag of it HERE.

They really said: to combat racism, we advocate for grooming and pedophilia and more misogynoir.

#asoiaf asks to me #rhaegar targaryen #asoiaf fandom #fandom critical #westerosi age of majority #daemon and nettles #daemon and nettles shipping #asoiaf shipping #hotd ships #nettles #daemon targaryen

[redrosesandcharmingsouls]

If you think this world has something deeply wrong in it ,think about the fact that , in another universe , House of The Dragon is a musical.

#hotd #house of the dragon #alicent hightower #team green #criston cole #aemond targaryen #aegon ii targaryen #team black #Rhaenyra Targaryen #daemon targaryen #viserys targaryen #daeron targaryen #Nettles #aemma targaryen #rhaenys targaryen #corlys velaryon #helaena targaryen #rhaena targaryen #baela targaryen #laena valeryon #Sara Snow #Cregan Stark #Otto Hightower #Larys Strong #lyonel strong #harwin strong #lucerys velaryon #jace velaryon #hotd text

[darklinaforever]

Nettles and Daemon. My take on this relationship :

Here's an article, detailing why Nettles and Daemon might (in my opinion) be a platonic relationship. It is essentially a recap of my own thoughts, as well as those of many others, including arabian-bloodstream and theroguedragon3, parts of which I write here come directly from theirs.

I also invite you to see their own article on the Nettles and Daemon relationship:

The reflection on Mysaria is extremely interesting elsewhere in this one.

Fire & Blood, is not meant to be considered historical fact. It is a biased account written by an archmaester 100 years after the fact, based on various diaries which are first, second and third hand biased accounts of the events that took place. The vast majority of these tales were written by Maesters, most of whom had no love for Rhaenyra Targaryen because of her gender, and were in fact pro-Aegon II and pro-Greens in general. The only thing we can be sure of are historical events, not character relationships. Thus, one can easily consider that everything that was said in a story involving relations between "such and such a person" was not necessarily right / true, at least to a certain extent, but which could sufficiently be heard and repeated to make their rounds in the reviews of the time, and taken up in the future accounts of the latter.

Admittedly, there are about four / five "sources" that suggest Daemon and Nettles were lovers, except it must be remembered that these sources are all based on the first one, namely Mushroom's, and the vast majority of accounts were biased against Rhaenyra and wanted to portray her and her camp negatively. Daemon Targaryen, was obviously not spared on this point, because of his gray nature, making him either loved or hated, but also because he was Rhaenyra's major asset during the war. And since the maesters were mostly trying to mount anti-Rhaenyra propaganda, portraying Daemon as an unfaithful husband would somehow reinforce that propaganda. Think about it. Daemon, not only her uncle, her husband, but also and above all her most loyal supporter, her sword and shield, the greatest threat to the Greens, was ultimately (according to the maesters) not so loyal to her, in this what was most sacred in their eyes; the wedding. This would actually suggest that Daemon didn't really love his niece, reinforcing this idea of ​​Rhaenyra being unlovable/appreciative.

And if supposedly "legitimate" sources such as Eustace from the court of Aegon II, and Mushroom from the court of Rhaenyra claimed that Nettles was Daemon's lover, well, they were surely true. Is not it ? After all, it doesn't matter that Eustace was pro-Aegon II and quite openly anti-Rhaenyra Targaryen in his stories. And it doesn't matter that Mushroom (first to have suggested this story of lovers between Nettles and Daemon) has always mostly gendered the stories he told. Surely, their affair must be true! And so other accounts followed suit. After all, when you hear something repeated over and over again, it catches on. However, that doesn't make it true, it just makes it a story told often enough for it to become true. It's even got to the point that singers have also written about them and portrayed them as lovers.

Again, that doesn't make it a reality.

Poets have done it for Daemon and Laena as well, and I doubt the latter married her because of some crush. Daemon probably, as the maesters suggest in the second version of their story, married Laena for more political reasons, (formally tying himself to the powerful Velaryon family) as well as personal reasons, such as a probable desire for children. But Daemon undeniably, in view of the facts, loved her in his own way and respected her. However, trying to portray them as madly in love is, in my opinion, a mistake. We must not forget that during the majority of their marriage, Rhaenyra was part of the equation, and that after the death of Laena, Daemon did not even wait 6 months, period of mourning required, to marry Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra with whom Daemon would have had an affair 9 years earlier, in the year 111. And whether in one story or the other, it should be noted that when they were discovered Rhaenyra and or Daemon would have proposed the wedding. The coincidence is still quite strong, not to mention the parallel of having them marry brothers and sisters respectively. Let's not even talk about the rather suspicious advanced birth of Aegon III, which would strongly suggest that Daemon and Rhaenyra would have started an affair before their marriage, which I remind you, already do not respect the period of mourning for the death of their respective spouses.

All that to say that just because the biased narrative says something relationally doesn't mean it's true. So back to Nettles and his supposed romantic/sexual relationship with Daemon. I think it is worth remembering that despite everything the maesters say about them, Fire & Blood is very clear, nothing that has been said can prove that they were lovers. It's written in black and white in the text, we can only be sure of what they were doing during their day, namely hunting down Aemond and Vaghar for Rhaenyra.

The arguments put forward to support their connection, consist in portraying the character of Daemon negatively, through his desires, which would be naturally carried (as in many men, it is well known at the time and not only) on young girls exerting a strong power of seduction on older men. His supposed affair continues with Mysaria. (Because yes, nothing can prove it either) And because in his youth, Daemon visited brothels where he was well known for deflowering very young girls.

While this does add some credence to the aspect of a possible affair with Nettles, it still cannot be used to discredit the opposite version, where Daemon is portrayed as being crazy about Nettles, not as a lover, but as a man would be of his daughter. I also recall that the book lends some credibility to Laenor's death by Daemon, due to arguments in favor of Mushroom's account, although as with Nettles there is no real proof of the act and that it is also extremely unlikely that Daemon had Laenor killed, especially by Ser Quarl.

Here, the reference to Daemon's actions in his youth is used to portray him as a man who did not rise above his primal nature, deemed deviant, in an effort to bolster Champignon's claim that Daemon did indeed take Nettles as lover. However, we are also told earlier in the book that Daemon, in his youth / when he was twenty, was short-tempered and ready to go to war for his brother's claim to the throne. Compare that to the current Daemon, more experienced in combat, turned into a brilliant strategist, first sniffing dialogue at war with Rhaenyra during the usurpation of the Greens, or knowing/understanding full well that he couldn't engage alone in a fight with Caraxes against Aemond with Vhagar and hope to survive it. Daemon has clearly moved on on this, so why wouldn't he have on the fornication aspect? Especially after having children, and long relationships/marriages with Laena (5 years old) and Rhaenyra (10 years old), who he married when they were both adults by our standards. 22 years old for Laena, and 21 for Rhaenyra. Moreover, note that no lovers were named / listed during his marriage to Laena, or even for his marriage to Rhaenyra, at least before the war unfolded. (Even if it is, yes, quite possible that he has in fact not evolved on this aspect of himself, the reverse seems to me, you will have understood it, much more probable / logical and especially interesting)

The second version offered in Fire & Blood tends more towards the idea that Daemon treated Nettles like a girl. A completely plausible version, since Nettles was precisely the same age as Daemon's daughters, namely 17 years old. Even if it was not surprising, for the time from which the universe of George R. R. Martin is inspired, that men have relations with girls of the same age as their own children, it is all the same possible and not at all inconceivable that the age of Nettles had a different impact on Daemon, and awakened his paternal/mentor side. Let us also remember that during this war, Daemon, in addition to being estranged from his daughters, also lost his stepsons and, he believes, his biological son Viserys II. Not to mention the miscarriage of baby Visenya, which, among other things, marked the beginning of this war. Daemon is therefore in fact in a situation / position, where he could totally and easily fall in love with a child, which Nettles could in fact represent, in particular because she is referred to as a child in the story. even at some point.

However, this version is decried by many fans, many being convinced that Daemon made Nettles his lover, because of particular actions towards the young girl whom they consider to be misinterpreted by the witness, Maester Norren, reporting this aspect paternal of their relationship.

Firstly, there's the fact that Daemon gave Nettles gifts and that would come to mind how he treated Rhaenyra before he supposedly had an affair with her. They are based in particular on the fact that apart from Rhaenyra, Nettles is the only other person mentioned in the story as having received gifts from Daemon. I would like to point out that there are all the same various and varied reasons for offering gifts to someone, and that once again Fire & Blood is a biased history book, not a novel that allow you to see the detailed life of the characters. So you would have me believe, on the pretext that it wasn't explicitly named in the book, that Daemon never gave gifts to Laena or his own daughters? (Do you realize how ridiculous this probability is?)

Daemon's gifts to Nettles and those offered to Rhaenyra, actually (in my opinion) have nothing to do with each other.

Here are Rhaenyra's gifts named, (although it is known that she received others from Daemon during her youth) are: Pearls, silk, books, and a jade diadem believed to have belonged to Empress of Leng.

As for the gifts from Nettles, (the only ones that we know of) they are: An ivory-handled hairbrush, a silver mirror, a coat of rich brown velvet lined with satin, and a pair of boots riding shoes in butter-soft leather.

Rhaenyra's gifts are exuberant, sometimes even unnecessary, - pearls, silk - very much like gifts one would give purely for pleasure, - books - even to woo someone, especially the tiara of jade. It is important to remember that by the time Rhaenyra received these gifts she had actually reached marriageable age. Not only did he give her gifts, but they also did a lot of activities together. As dined with her, so far nothing suspicious you might say, but he also sailed with her, hunted with her; entertained her by making fun of the Greens, characterized as suckers, flattering Queen Alicent and her children. He praised her beauty, declaring her to be the most beautiful woman in all of the Seven Kingdoms and they also began flying together almost daily, racing Syrax against Caraxes to Dragonstone back and forth.

As for Nettles, besides the obvious preciousness of the gifts from Daemon being a prince, notice how practical they seem above all else? From what we know of Nettles, she was a wildling who had nothing, and whom Daemon taught manners, such as how to dress, sit, brush her hair, and wash herself. The gifts he gave her seem to fit perfectly into this framework.

He taught her how to do her hair and dress properly? Brush, mirror, coat and boots.

Things again above all practical things that have undeniably been able to help improve the life of Nettles, which began, let us remember, and has mainly taken place in poverty.

All this gives an effectively paternalistic aspect, of educator, even of mentor to Daemon for Nettles.

Other actions/things described by Maester Norren are: Nettles and Daemon had dinner together every night and had breakfast together every morning. Both also had adjoining rooms.

In itself, these elements are not irrefutable proof that they were lovers. It just shows that Daemon particularly loved Nettles, enough to keep her close to him. Especially if he actually took on a fatherly affection, or took on a mentorship role for her, taking her under his wing as a result. So there's nothing particularly strange or wacky about Daemon keeping her close to him. Not to mention that Nettles was his partner in the active pursuit of Aemond and Vaghar and that they spent their days together, thus bringing them inescapably closer. So it makes just as much sense that they end up having dinner and breakfast together. It's a fairly logical situation for two people who must spend their time with each other, and who end up liking each other.

Now let's talk about the annoying subject, because it's the most controversial in view of our modern mores and personal limits, namely that Daemon would often (so not always) share a seat with Nettles, meaning that he would have taken bath with her. However, before we get fired up, let's keep in mind that these accounts are given by Maester Norren of Daemon treating Nettles like a girl, and they are not transcribed salaciously, so not said by Mushroom, or suggested by Maester Eustace.

And that partly makes sense, especially for the period. Reminder Game of Thrones, season 3, episode 6: "Kissed By Fir.", Jaime and Brienne bathed together, there was nothing salacious there. It was just two people who needed to be cleaned up and so they were sent to the bathroom to get it done. There was nothing sexual in it. Although it was indeed a room filled with other large baths that Jaime could have slipped into, the very idea that a man and a woman could share such a space without anything sexual or improper being involved did exist in some minds.

Some would say that's not a very good example, so I'll say this: Also consider the arduous task of bathing in those days. Raise the tub, heat the water, raise the buckets of water, then empty the tub. It's a lot of work. So sharing a bath isn't always a sexual thing, not in those days, or in ours for that matter.

If that still doesn't convince you, remember that Daemon would have basically taught Nettles, among other things, how to wash properly. That he ended up directly taking baths with her in view of their daily lives, which once again led them to share a great closeness and develop a bond, is nothing particularly surprising or shocking in itself. What's more, it's worth noting that they were never described as bathing together in private. Instead, they were surrounded by maids, testifying that they respectively washed away each other's filth, driving away the stench of dragons harvested from their days spent hunting Aemond. No one in the domain seems to have noticed inappropriate attitudes / gestures between the two companions, or at least it never reached the ears of Maester Norren, which would be quite surprising, you agree, if the two had really been lovers. Also, it is important to remember that not everyone has the same notion of modesty and nudity. Daemon is an unconventional man, we know, and Nettles, a girl who has essentially always lived on the streets, so as a result I doubt the two necessarily associate nudity with sex.

I am now going to present to you a specific example of fantasy, showing two characters, a man and a woman, sharing a bath together in a purely platonic way. These are the characters of Moiraine and Lan in the series "The Wheel of Time". Moiraine is an aes sedai, and Lan is her champion. (sort of, I don't remember the exact term anymore if there is one)

The two share a magical bond said to be stronger than between parents/children, brothers/sisters, husbands/wives, lovers, friends, etc. It is a link beyond all others. So, you surely/probably think that sex (just like me at first) is not involved in such type of relationship. Nevertheless, it is proven in the series that sexual attraction and intercourse can exist between aes sedai and their champions. Proof of this is that Alanna, an aes sedai, practices threesomes with her two champions, Maksim and Ihvon, the latter forming a relationship based on mutual respect and love.

To return to the shared bath of Moiraine and Lan, it should be noted that the latter is bisexual. Indeed, she is currently in love with another aes sedai named Siuan, and in the books Moiraine ends up married to Thom. As for Lan, the latter seems to be straight, and will end up falling in love with a woman named Nynaeve. Lan and Moiraine have no particular excuse for taking a bath together, and given their attitude, it's certainly not the first time they've done it. They could very well have washed one after the other, because Moiraine can literally heat the water, thanks to her magic. The two are also in a hunt/stalk situation, looking for who would be the "dragon", the chosen one of this fantasy story, leading them to spend even more time together than they do. usually in the capital. Clearly, the two bathe together, simply because it's probably more convenient, they don't mind it and their relationship is considered platonic anyway. Besides, if we had to characterize the relationship of Moiraine and Lan, it would be more that of a brother and a sister than anything else. However, see that it did not prevent them from taking baths together during their quest.

Once again, it's important, not everyone has the same type of modesty, or the same notion of nudity. I have always said it, and will always support it, nudity does not equal sex.

So, no, that Nettles and Daemon took baths together, doesn't necessarily mean that they had sex together. Even Fire and Blood says so, nothing that has been named proves this fact, thus leaving doubts.

There are also other elements often discussed / raised by fans, to prove that Daemon and Nettles would be lovers, but which in my opinion still have no real certainty.

Notably Caraxes' Persian scream when Daemon watches Nettles walk away, after the latter sends him away to save her from Rhaenyra's execution order, smashing the windows of Jonquil Tower. Caraxes' roar is a very clear reaction to Daemon's feelings at the time, leaving him stoic, not moving or saying a word. But again, that's not fundamental proof of a romance between them. Doubt is always allowed. If Daemon has developed a deep platonic bond with Nettles, almost coming to regard her as one of his daughters, knowing that he has been away from his own children, (with whom he has always lived) for an extremely long time, he is makes sense that Caraxes would express Daemon's pain so viscerally at seeing her go. Imagine the pain of losing a child again. Because yes, at this point Daemon has lost not only his unborn daughter, his stepsons, and he believes his second biological son, being estranged for a long time from the rest of his children. Again, Daemon found himself in a situation where it was totally and easily possible for him to go crazy for Nettles like a man would for his daughter. This option, posed by the author himself, is not improbable. Also, as Daemon watches Nettles leave, we don't know what's going on in his head, or even what he was thinking precisely at that moment. If it is, it is a mixture of several thoughts and emotions that crossed him and finally made Caraxes crack at this point. It doesn't have to be romantic.

Some argue that it is, since the tower whose windows Caraxes broke is named after "Jonquil", a girl known in the GOT universe to have had a great romance, and who aptly gives her name to the tower. However, the tower itself is not a symbol of love. People were literally locked up there as prisoners. The symbol of love, in relation to Jonquil, is the swimming pool where she and her lover first met. Not the tower then.

I won't go into the so-called parallel between Rhea Royce and Nettles, I've done that before in another post, including Daemon's death, supposedly having the sole reason of wanting suicide from not being able to be with Nettles.

Here are the links to those positions if you're interested:

I love the idea that Nettles and Daemon were able to have a strong platonic relationship, mixing mentor/student, father/daughter, and fellow warriors. A relationship with unconventional sides, which would have caused most people to misinterpret it. Mostly due to a lot of prejudice from people and maesters in general, not helping with the fact that Daemon doesn't give a damn about other people's opinions, of course. (Just like the Daemyra relationship somewhere, which nobody seems to have seen at the time as a romance, although there were no other possibilities given some of their actions) I think that would be a more interesting to see and explore. Even more so that it gives an all the more tragic side to the global story. But again, I'm not denying the possibility that Daemon and Nettles could have been lovers. Simply, it's not the interpretation that I prefer, but it's up to you to like what you want!

I await your opinions on this if you have any to share!

#house of the dragon #daemon x rhaenyra #daemyra #rhaenyra targaryen #daemon targaryen #daemon and rhaenyra #rhaenyra x daemon #rhaenyra and daemon #house targaryen #house of targaryen #daemon and nettles #nettles and daemon #nettles x daemon #daemon x nettles #platonic #platonic relationship #nettles x daemon platonically #daenyra

[acewithapencil]

The fall of King’s Landing to Queen Rhaenyra and her dragons (text from Fire & Blood)

#asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #fire & blood #fan art #my art #vermithor #silverwing #Sheepstealer #seasmoke #caraxes #syrax #hugh hammer #Ulf white #nettles #addam velaryon #daemon Targaryen #rhaenyra targaryen

[thewitchqueenofharrenhal]

Daemon Targaryen ain’t shit and will never be shit but one of the few great things he did in his life was ensuring Nettles would get to leave the war safely and live.

#asoiaf #hotd #nettles #daemon targaryen