#also by me not specifying his gender identity by default that would make him trans wouldnt it....................or am i insane | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

nonbinaryresource · 4 years

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hi. i wanted to ask whether or not it’s ok to take comfort in a person that has not officially come out as trans but has included many forms of gender expression in their work? i’m trans and when i listened to this artist’s work (harry styles - she & fine line) i connected with the songs immediately? i found a lot of people in the community who too connected to the songs and interpreted the lyrics as a struggle with one’s gender identity. at first i was against calling harry trans because i thought it was wrong, but then after reading master posts i discovered that he constantly portrays gender in his work (using the trans flag on his album cover; being ok with his friends referring to him with she/her, miss, ‘sue’ instead of ‘harry’, and sis; his obsession with babies and especially wanting to get pregnant; relating himself only to female artists; etc.) and now i’m really confused. it feels comforting as a fan to relate to him and i, and a lot of other fans from the community, sometimes refer to him with he/she/they instead of he/him (he never said his pronouns are he/him). is that wrong? every time my (trans) friends and i refer to him with pronouns other than he/him or tell people not to assume he’s cis as he never specified that, other (usually cis. a trans fan called me transphobic and told me to stop seeking validation from cis white men.) fans will start calling us transphobic and delusional and attacking us to the point we had anxiety attacks over it? i’m just really confused right now. i don’t want to misgender anyone but i don’t understand why relating to someone who, from their actions, could be part of the community is wrong. i’m not out to anyone irl and sometimes i wish people caught on to the little things i do and recognise that i am part of the community. i don’t understand why people keep shutting down the idea the harry could be trans when he never said he was cis and was ok being referred to as she.

he has previously said that there are no lines between what's masculine and what's feminine for him anymore. i'm sorry this is so long and thank you

(You also sent in the song lyrics - thanks for the easy reference! - but I’m clipping those for length reasons.)

Disclaimer before I dig in: I am not a Harry Styles stan, I know very little about him, most of what I am going to say specifically about him is stuff I researched about specifically to answer this ask. I want to speak mostly generally to your question.

Okay, so you posed a pretty succinct, straight forward question. “i wanted to ask whether or not it’s ok to take comfort in a person that has not officially come out as trans but has included many forms of gender expression in their work?“ However, there’s also a lot of context to this ask that makes things not so straight forward, and there are several distinct issues touched upon here I want to delve into. But it seems a good a starting place as any to start with the direct question you asked.

Yes, of course it’s okay to find your own meaning in art and role models and relate to art your way from your perspective based on your experience. In fact, that’s nearly the entire purpose of art! And it makes sense too, that we as social creatures would look up to and be inspired by celebrities, artists, mentors, role models, etc. Feeling connected to and less alone because someone in the spotlight plays with gender presentation like you might or want to makes a lot of sense!

However, we have to remember that A) sometimes art is just art, and B) someone being in the spotlight doesn’t mean we actually know or understand them or are/should act familiar with them.

As an example, a couple years back, Will Jay released a song called “Never Been in Love” that pretty much exploded with aros and aces and became a bit of an anthem for a lot of us. Many wondered if he was aspec himself and there was a lot of queries about it (and I saw quite a few blogs reminding folk that they were allowed to relate to the song even if it meant something different to Will Jay or he wasn’t actually aspec). Earlier this year, he released the song “Lies” where he admits that he was writing songs he thought people would relate to and he actually had been in love even before writing “Never Been In Love”. That should do nothing to diminish how meaningful the song was to people, though! If we related to the song, we related to the song, and if it was meaningful and made us feel seen and understood, that’s great! A lot of times, art is personal, but sometimes art is just an exploration.

This concept applies even more to people themselves. It is soooo easy to idolize and romanticize people you’ve never actually met and really only see the persona they want you to see. Yes, they share personal information with the world and they experience a general lack of privacy that makes you feel like yeah, you really know who they are. But how can you really, personally, intimately know someone without interacting with them, chatting with them, getting to know them one on one? It’s fine to have role models and feel represented by and relate to a celebrity - just do not lose sight of the fact that what you’re feeling is personal feeling on your own end. It’s not something that this celebrity has actually built with you.

To put this another way: it is fine to headcanon fictional characters, but it’s not okay to headcanon real people.

Now, what I’m building up to here is that there are a lot of assumptions I am seeing - from both sides - that we cannot truly know because all we know is what Harry [or anyone] chooses to share with us. I’d like to break this down by going through some specific points.

at first i was against calling harry trans because i thought it was wrong

Okay, there are two sides to this.

1) It is wrong to apply a gender label/descriptor to someone without their permission.

2) In a cisnormative society, “cis” is the default gender label/descriptor to apply to everyone, and that’s equally wrong, so I get why it feels like a rebellion of the system to go “well, there are Reasons they could be trans, so I’m just going to go ahead and call them trans”.

We should get away from automatically labeling everyone as “cis”. However, the way we fix this isn’t to just decide we get to apply whatever label/descriptor to someone we want.

If someone hasn’t clarified or specified their gender (and you can’t/it isn’t a good or safe idea to ask them), it’s the safest bet to go by what they seem to be majority being called or what you can find of them referring to themself as.

In some cases, when someone seems to be specifically avoiding labeling themselves or uncomfortable with labeling themselves, it may be most comfortable for you to also avoid labeling them just as much as possible.

being ok with his friends referring to him with she/her, miss, ‘sue’ instead of ‘harry’, and sis; his obsession with babies and especially wanting to get pregnant; relating himself only to female artists; etc.)

It’s worth considering - is this something for friends only? Or is it open to fans and other public sectors?

Usually if something is for friends only, it’ll be kept out of public eye, but if only friends are doing this, is this something that is only being shared with you or is it something you’re entitled to as well?

Aaaaaaaaalso, it has to be pointed out that it’s binarist and cisnormative in it’s own way to equate different names/pronouns automatically with being trans or being a specific trans identity. Wanting to get pregnant? Do you know how many cis women I’ve heard go on and on about wanting a penis so they can pee standing up (like... all of them anytime we’re outside or camping)? Plenty of cis people use pronouns you might not expect! You don’t have to be trans/nonbinary to use multiple or ‘atypical’ pronouns. Cis people are allowed to use other pronouns as well! They’re allowed to have names typically associated with other genders! Not all gender nonconforming or genderqueer people/people queering gender are trans! Not everybody exploring their gender nor gender presentation is trans!

not to assume he’s cis as he never specified that

It’s great to not assume someone is cis! But that doesn’t automatically make them trans.

i don’t want to misgender anyone but i don’t understand why relating to someone who, from their actions, could be part of the community is wrong.

Do you specifically, absolutely need to gender someone in order to relate to them?

i don’t understand why people keep shutting down the idea the harry could be trans when he never said he was cis and was ok being referred to as she.

I’ve only recently seen a tiny bit of this ‘discourse’ around on twitter, but what I see is a few issues/points:

A) It’s not up to us to claim someone as trans if they have not come out as trans. Coming out is an extremely personal choice and should be up to each individual. “Claiming” them is basically dragging them into something that very well may be not theirs. And if it is theirs, why would you want to steal that moment of getting to determine and declare that away from them?

B) We are all so done with cis, able-bodied white folk being prioritized above the rest of the queer community!!! There are actual, legitimate, out trans people that can be your trans role models and they’re being shoved to the back of the closet in favor of a privileged, white Schrödinger’s Trans. Let’s uplift our actual community instead of getting stuck on someone who may or may not be a part of community - and may not even want to be a part of it!

All that being said, I do want to say something really quickly on Harry himself because it ties back into the assumptions we’ve been talking about. Harry’s sexuality has long been a question on fans and journalists minds, and Harry has pretty consistently made it clear that he’s not really interested in labels or boxes. Harry’s gender is not something that has been asked about, talked about, or answered on much. And his comment on masculinity and femininity? Let’s remember that, like pronouns, masculinity and femininity don’t automatically or inherently relate to one specific gender or not. And, quite frankly, it is faucet of toxic masculinity and cissexism to equate a gnc man/man in a dress with being trans. Men are allowed to wear dresses and makeup and heels! Men are allowed to be soft and nurturing and to cry! Cis or trans, men are allowed to be these things, and arguing that they’re trans simply for doing or being any of these does continue to enforce dangerous and strict views of the gender binary.

Okay, it feels like I kinda put you through the wringer, so I want to go back and reiterate: it is 100% valid to relate to and feel connected to/inspired by someone on the basis of their presentation and gender exploration. It is not valid to claim ownership over their identity because of this. It is possible for two people to experience same or similar things and yet come to different conclusions about themselves!

If Harry Styles as an icon is important to you, I’m glad you can have that! But not everyone will or has to share your connection, and the only one actually qualified to speak on Harry’s gender is Harry himself. Harry could be trans, but it’s his right and his right only to claim that label. Any assuming we do is just that: an assumption. And I want you to be careful with your own feelings getting too attached to the image of Harry you’ve built up in your own head only to potentially have them shattered if Harry decides to speak on things and it turns out his feelings don’t mean what you thought.

Your identity is valid regardless of how Harry Styles feels or identifies. You feeling validated and seen and represented by Harry’s actions is valid regardless of how Harry Styles feels or identifies. It’s great to have role models and be inspired by people, but remember that at the end of the day, you need to be able to rely on yourself to keep up your ego and determine your sense of self.

~Pluto

#long post #mod pluto #identity #role models #discourse #gender #gender binary #cisnormativity #cissexism #mod tera #Anonymous

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avenger-hawk · 3 years

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Hey hawk, did you observe a pattern among people who participate in Woke-ism culture, they seem to have similar "traits" and "personality"? Dislike the "straight" orientation (usually identify themselves as gay/lesbian/bi and brags they are LGBT every second), they seem to think gender identity is a personality trait etc therefore "I'm holier than thou because I list myself as she/he/they/it". I bet they are gonna scream at me for being whatever "phobic" just because of this post lol

*clears throat* yeah they gonna scream at you but they can’t scream at me because it’s been a year that I am in an lgbt relationship soooo xD

Ofc I noticed this kind of behavior, these woke ppl really like be ‘different’ and tbh the thing I find more irritating is when they define themselves ‘autistic’ or ‘asperger’ or ‘adhd’ whathever other mental illness/condition, because these are serious things that should be diagnosed by a specialist and not an online tests, and usually ppl who have a real problem are not so incredibly vocal about it. Sure they don’t brag with it....”but I don’t have money to take a test and my parents don’t let me!” they say? yeah. could be. but it also could be that you just wanna look special and since you’re socially anxious or shy or just a b*tch, you like to play rude and then justify yourself with those labels, and if someone dares tell you you’re a piece of shit you can call them ableist lol

Same for race or country. Not taking anything away from populations/countries/cultures/religions that have been oppressed, but sometimes I cringe cause some ppl try so hard to fit in this. Like, at some point 99% of populations were invaded by others and oppressed, and I’m sorry for welsh ppl, to just name one (no offense it’s the first that came to my mind cause I read a post recently lol) but if this continues we’re gonna have to seek justice for the victims of the vikings’ raids lolol

Anyway, back to what you were saying. I partly get that lgbt ppl are vocal about what they are bc maybe they can’t tell their families or friends, and they use social media as outlets. but like you said, your personality is not defined by who you f*ck and/or love (It’s not even defined by the fiction you like, actually, but they think so). So while I understand ppl describe themselves in their profile and specify their gender identity and sexuality, for me it’s cringey when they take it too far. Like when they start with all the labels ever, or they make combinations...demisexual panromantic/asexual demiromantic/trans nonbinary aroace spectrum...sounds like a competition of who’s less ordinary. Bonus points if they also add race and illness. Bonus points if they pretend they’re experts and activist and they shit on ppl who ship something or speak of top/bottom bc they’re fetishizing gay mlm/wlw and how dare they, dirty cishets (cause Anon, straight is a too banal word lol).

(also...not to offend ‘aroace’ ppl out there but...when someone is like 12...couldn’t it be that they’re just...too young for caring about sex/love? asking for a friend lolol)

I mean, tumblr has a lot of lgbt ppl and it’s cool, and I know it’s hard to live as an lgbt person cause you can’t do what het ppl do normally, like kissing in public or holding hands or writing cute posts on fb bc someone might bitch or be even worse, so this creates a bitterness and aggressiveness on social media I guess, especially here where minorities are the majority lol. And I too, on my personal blog, occasionally ranted about things like internalized homophobia and queerbaiting, but only very rarely lol and no one paid attention to me, guess I am not lgbt enough hahahah

But, it’s stupid to use sexuality labels as a shield to shit on ppl and then call them --phobic when they react. It actually happened to me a couple of years ago, I wrote something about bottom Sasuke and this self defined aromantic+asexual+autistic+gay american dude attacked me for fetishizing gays. Back then I was in a relationship with a guy so for him I was only a boring straight person I guess, a gross fujoshi who dared like mlm haha. fuck him. If I were the same type of person as him I would have pulled the oppressed card, I could have attacked him reminding him that his country treated italian immigrants like animals, and that they had this veeeery big problem of being unsure about our ‘race’ so in their papers they often wrote ? cause they couldn’t understand if we were poc or not...but it would have been kinda off topic and I cartainly don’t waste time talking about me to ppl I don’t even trust to be what they say.

Also because I was raised by parents who were very politically involved, so I remember them doing activism, like, getting out of the house, going to protests, doing volunteering, even taking me along when I was little. So even tho now everything happens online first, and even tho posts can spread awareness and change ppl’s minds, I still don’t trust when I see those blogs full of angry woke activism, because they seem fake and even those ppl seem fake. It’s easy to scream for justice from a keyboard, in a comfortable house. It’s less easy to protest in the cold, risking to have problems with the police, the government, the pandemic, whatever else.

It’s irritating that wokies want to take the right to like smth in the right way or whatever, telling everyone else who don’t fit in the minority group that they can’t like the thing. Idk, I just wish ppl were like in Eastern Asian fandoms, not making everything about themselves, being open minded enough for whatever ‘different’ thing whether they are into it or not, and if they’re not ignoring it only.

And I do get wanting to fit the minority, as a teenager I was veery punk/gothic, depending on the moment, and I never fit in the majority opinions or habits anyway. And I was kind of fluid with my identity and sexuality, but silly me, I kept it for myself, even tho I discussed with those who insulted lgbt ppl and I wrote stuff where everyone is bisexual by default, thinking that it was how people were born before society conditioned them...I could have bragged but I had no idea about ‘fluid’ or ‘pan’, silly me.

I am so irritated at everything, like the words they use, even the english language that is not mine, is getting on my nerves because it’s the vehicle for their crap, but these periodically trending words are disgusting like these ppl to me.

I migth have gone out of topic again lol.

#replies &co #fanon and fandom stuff #kinda #lol this gonna make me lose followers #couldn't care less I hate fake ppl #Anonymous

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toycarousel · 7 years

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I slipped up and accidentally made a transphobic comment. A couple of my lesbian friends and I were talking bout our disdain for men. I had said something on how "cishet men" were the enemy. A trans guy in our group chat told me that it came off to him as saying "oh, not you, sweetie, I'm talking about REAL men".I understood how he perceived it that way. I felt like my apology will not be enough. I am aware of how toxic the lesbian community is towards trans men. I wanna know how I can fix this

Hi, Anon! I’m not a trans man, and I definitely cannot speak for your friend... if you just want my perspective, however, I understand that you said something that caused someone else pain. I’d definitely take your friend’s words to heart, and cis men and trans men are the same gender and the same sex (I won’t go too deeply into the biology lesson, but I have legitimate backup for that statement!)

Honestly, though... cishet men are treated differently in society than trans men are, in many cases. And the behaviour of a guy who’s never had to question his position in society -- who has not had his gender questioned, his sexuality questioned, who’s been upheld as the default, probably doesn’t understand the gender as much as your friend does. A lot of cishet guys really haven’t had to in order to survive.

I also can’t speak for you, but if you were saying what you were saying because you know that cishet men still have social benefits over heterosexual trans men, then I’d say you were right. Trans men are just men, so of course they often make the same mistakes and enact the same toxic behaviour that cis guys do. I wouldn’t give any man a “pass” just because he was assigned a certain way at birth. Men are men. But intersectional forces are at play in a statement like that.

You specified cishet men. You didn’t say “men are the enemy.” To do so would definitely be erasure of the fact that your friend is a man. I believe that cishet men and heterosexual trans men still face different issues in society from each other. And it’s really just due to the fact that cishet men’s behaviour is not policed based on their gender or sexuality. Whereas many (again, can’t speak for trans men) trans guys have had to fight to gain recognition of who they are on all fronts (i.e.; people questioning whether their attraction to women is a “lesbian” attraction, or a heterosexual guy’s attraction; questioning whether they can truly be a man if they don’t have genitals absolutely identical to cis men, etc.)

So, in mentioning this to you, I think your friend was being very honest and very responsible. He knows he’s a man, and that he shouldn’t just get a “pass” because he’s trans. And it sounds like he perceived your statement as giving him that pass and therefore demoting him to “sub-man.” But it really sounds like you were specifying a group of people who have that highly specific combination of benefits in life, rather than just saying “all men are xyz,” and forgetting that he’s a real man too.

I’d talk to your friend. Explain what it is you meant when you said that (which, I mean, I’ve taken guesses at in this response -- but only you know what you were truly thinking). Apologies are fine. I wouldn’t over-apologize, but I’d think about what your friend said, and contemplate whether or not that’s a belief that you still hold on some subconscious level (that trans men are like... Men Lite). But the way to make an apology actually count, and to be sincere, is to explain yourself without justifying what you did/said, think about what you said and where it came from, and change your behaviour.

You can’t fix the past, but you can absolutely be the best version of yourself in moving forward. And we all make mistakes. We are all learning, and we’ll continue to make mistakes and learn, probably our whole lives. People who think they’ve reached some sort of Ultimate Knowledge or think they have all the answers, and know all the Right things to do and say are usually not very good people. They’re not questioning themselves anymore. You’re clearly questioning yourself a lot, and wanting to make reparations for saying something that hurt your friend. That’s a really good sign, and that’s about as much as you can do -- it’s up to your friend to decide whether or not he believes you or forgives you, but hey. You’re doing what you can to make things right.

I hope everything ends up well~!!! Sometimes our friends hurt us without meaning to, and sometimes we hurt our friends without meaning to. And society is barely beginning to change, so it’s gonna take time for us to rewrite all that’s been programmed into us about things like race, gender, sexuality... go easy on yourself, but be a good listener, and always let yourself grow~!!!

Best of wishes, Anon!!!

#gender #transgender #advice asks #trans men #important topics #anonymous #scotchasks

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