Different anon, I just want to say, in good faith, that no one is arguing incest is good in real life, but I think enjoying it in fiction is different. It's like liking serial killer characters, noncon or any other toxic relationship. I don't see why it should be excluded from the idea that your tastes in media doesn't reflect your values.
Thanks for commenting in good faith and for being civil. I do appreciate that greatly.
I’m afraid I disagree somewhat in this instance- and my lack of accord revolves mostly around the idea that the majority of discourse in this context is in reference to fanfiction in particular.
Something like non-consensual sex or incest presented in the narrative of a novel is quite different to a fanfiction author taking characters out of their original context and having them participate in such activities. It is not used as social commentary in a larger narrative, it is not allegorical, not a literary device… It is usually an act of indulgence in a taboo act by proxy, at least intellectually. It’s not circumstantial that beloved characters (often relatable to the author or readership) are used for these explorations.
I do understand your positioning that enjoying media and its contents is not somehow an endorsement of actions therein. I agree!
I also acknowledge that fanfiction is not necessarily “lesser” under all circumstances than published fiction. There is absolutely some shitty published work out there lol.
But I do think that the majority of fanfiction in which characters written as siblings, as in the example given, are then placed into incestual scenarios is at the very least concerning. Often people argue they are coping with sexual abuse of their own to defend such things— in that case, sure, write it, but then why are you sharing it online? The inherently collaborative nature of fanfiction authors and their readership directly encourages sub-fandom development surrounding these reimaginings. It is in this way something like incest is normalized.
Moreover, I don’t think it should be surprising that the idea that people regularly enjoy imagining sibling characters engaging in incestuous acts is disturbing to people. The sheer ferocity alone with which people defend engaging in things like this, acting as if it is a normal thing to stumble upon people doing, is mind-boggling to me?? If one can hold that it is an upsetting concept to some in their mind, why are they shocked when people do get upset?
I can appreciate there are nuances here, and I attempted to address some of these— but, simultaneously, what I think is central to the issue to me is that people who are engaging with/writing/supporting fanfiction like this are so vehemently convinced that they are being somehow oppressed when others express genuine upset and discomfort over something that is… a genuinely upsetting and discomfiting topic. It’s fucking weird to learn someone you trust regularly thinks about characters in such a way. Especially because in fandom spaces it’s often frequent, repetitive engagements— no one who is “in a fandom” has but a passing interest, lol.
And I see often the phrase “thought crime” thrown around- the idea behind this centering on the concept that even though they consider and think about incest frequently, they are not engaging in it, so they’re innocent and their thoughts can and should not be policed. I’ve also seen people who support engaging with such content say it is ableist to be disturbed by someone else’s thoughts, as some disorders cause people to have intrusive thoughts which may center on topics not dissimilar. The thing is, I don’t disagree. These concepts are rational.
The issue is that they are not quite topical: an intrusive thought is much different than regularly choosing to ruminate on and consider something regularly, repeatedly, and even frequently… as is essentially the manner in which fandom engagement functions.
I’ve experienced intrusive thoughts myself— real, genuinely disturbing ones, thanks terrible anxiety and adhd cocktail— but they are not at all characteristic of/similar to the willing engagement of writing and reading fanfiction.
Overall, that is what I take issue with the most. Fanfiction in which incest is often the impetus of a short work “shipping” related characters in a manner not constructive to any larger narrative commentary— it is incest for incest’s sake.
It not akin to finding meaning or something compelling in a narrative which comments upon the human condition and uses a toxic , complicated relationship as a vehicle or framing device with which to do so.
Fanfiction is instead often de-(or re-)contextualized, centered on the incest, and indulgent (— in the manner that all fanfiction is indulgent).
That’s what I personally take great issue with, and it’s why I have to disagree with you. Even if people aren’t “arguing incest is good in real life,” I believe for the reasons outlined above that the collaborative, repetitive, frequent engagement with incest for incest’s sake, essentially, is harmful in the way it normalizes a vile and abusive act and concept.
Thanks for reading.
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