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taggingtim · 3 years

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Why I love Pre-Boot Tim Drake and why the Reboot has ruined him

I love Tim Drake. He is my favorite comic book character of all time. I’ve been really upset the past few days about what DC has been doing with him lately, and I thought it would be cathartic for me to write something up about it. (No, this isn’t a rant about Tim being bi/gay; it’s a much larger problem than that. But I’ll get to that in a bit.) Bear with me for a bit of history, first.

When I was a kid I loved the Batman Animated Series. I know this will lose me a lot of internet cred, but I always preferred the fourth season. In particular, I loved Tim Drake. He was fun and funny and I absolutely adored him. I used to beg my mom to take me to the mall so I could buy issues of Gotham Adventures. For my birthday one year my parents got me a subscription to the comic, and I was blown away by the idea that I could have comics MAILED to my HOUSE.

Around middle school I started collecting Marvel comics, mostly X-men stuff. I loved them, but when I started college I quit the hobby for financial reasons.

Fast forward a few years, and I felt I was financially stable enough to start buying comics again. Rather than going back to Marvel, I decided to give Batman comics a chance. I had no idea where to start, and when I found out my beloved Tim had his own comic series, I thought it was a perfect entry point into the Batman universe. I bought the complete series from a local comic shop and dove in.

Tim’s Robin series was exactly what I was looking for in a comic. He was very different from little Timmy Todd from BtAS, but I loved him. I built the rest of my comic collection around him, grabbing up every book that he was featured in, from Young Justice to Teen Titans to Batman, Detective Comics, Nightwing, Red Robin, and many others. I have random books from series like The Demon just because Tim was in them.

So why did I like Tim so much? What about this character made me so excited for more? I found in Tim something that I had never seen in a comic book before: character growth. Somehow, though he was written by many different authors over many different years, Tim managed to have a character arc that is consistent and makes sense. Sure, there were a few small bumps along the way, but on the whole Tim has always stayed true to his character, and he’s developed in a way that the big name characters, like Batman, never can.

When we’re first introduced to Tim, he’s a young teen who has been neglected by his parents growing up. He’s smart, healthy, and strong, but he lacks so much self confidence and has little sense of self worth. Tim notices Bruce’s increasing violence as he grieves for the loss of his son, and Tim knows he needs to step in and help. Batman needs a Robin.

For most characters, this would be the part where Tim put himself forward for the job. But he doesn’t. He seeks out Dick Grayson and begs him to come home instead. It’s only when Batman and Nightwing are in danger and there is literally no one else to help that Tim steps up and dons the cape. And once he does, he’s constantly plagued by self-doubt, terrified he will screw up and leave Batman worse than ever before.

From there, Tim undergoes intense training. He never begs to be in the spotlight, doesn’t push to go out on the streets before he’s ready. His goal is to help Bruce as much as possible.

Here’s where I started to fall in love with him. All that self-doubt, the constant need to be useful? That’s exactly what you would expect to see from a child whose parents had ignored and neglected him. He finally has a parental figure who sees him, who values him, and Tim does everything he can to make himself worthy in the hopes that Bruce will keep him around.

This is the first example of character consistency that we see with Tim. And it continues. When his mom dies and his dad is put in a coma, you see Tim struggle to come to terms with losing the people he loves, but never had a relationship with. Tim almost never mentions his mom after her death, because she just wasn’t present in his life. When his dad recovers and decides to stick around, Tim struggles to build a relationship with him. He’s plagued with guilt because he’s finally found the father figure he needed in Bruce, but he thinks that he’s supposed to feel that way for Jack. It’s a running undercurrent in their relationship that creates distance between them for years.

This is already so long, so I’m going to try to summarize a bit more. We get to watch Tim grow up. We see his awkward relationship with his first girlfriend, Ariana. He doesn’t know how to treat her; he’s never had the opportunity to observe a healthy relationship. But he tries so, so hard. All of Tim’s relationships are awkward, because he’s never had a model of a good one. Steph is a great match for him, because she’s very vocal about what she wants and needs, and she isn’t afraid to call Tim out when he messes up, which is exactly what Tim needs.

Big things happen to Tim. He’s stuck with Jean-Paul Valley, who slowly goes insane, leaving Tim to try to keep the city in one piece. He’s infected with the Clench, a plague that sweeps over Gotham and kills everyone it touches, and barely escapes with his life. His girlfriend is sexually assaulted, leaving him to deal with the fallout. His family moves out of Gotham, and he has to sneak back in during No Man’s Land to help. His relationship with his dad has intense ups and downs, resulting in him being sent to boarding school, punished in a variety of ways, and generally caused a lot of trouble in his life.

Then people start dying. Over the course of about a year in his life, Tim loses his girlfriend, his dad, a close friend, and his best friend, each of whom dies under tragic conditions. Tim’s grief is intense, and he is understandably traumatized by the losses. We see fundamental changes in his character. He changes his costume from something bright and cheerful to something darker that reflects his emotional state. He’s more subdued, his adventures a little more serious.

When Bruce first tries to adopt him, Tim literally creates an uncle and hires an actor to play him, just to avoid dealing with the situation. Bruce has viewed Tim as a son for years, so to him the adoption is an obvious step. For Tim, it feels like a betrayal of his father, and it takes a while before he’s ready to accept Bruce’s love, home, and a place in his family.

When Damian shows up on the scene, Tim really struggles with him, and not just because early Damian is a horrid brat who tries to kill Tim on multiple occasions. Tim has always felt the need to earn his place with Bruce, and Damian constantly throws all of Tim’s biggest fears in his face—he’s not wanted or needed now that the “real” son is here, he’s not worthy of a place in the family, he’s not good enough.

Tim tries to clone Conner, his best friend. He’s lost so many people, and he’s desperate to get them back. Conner was cloned to begin with and fully matured over a very short period of time; the technology clearly exists, so why can’t Tim use it to get his best friend back? And if he can get Conner back, why not the others he’s lost? He eventually gives up, but when he eventually gets access to a Lazarus Pit, he immediately wants to incorporate the waters into his process so he can revive his loved ones. With Dick’s help, Tim eventually decides to let it go, but it’s such a poignant moment for the character.

Then Bruce dies, and Dick takes Robin away. Tim switches to the Red Robin persona as he travels the world, alone, trying to prove that he was right. He has to deal with the trauma of losing another father, finds out that his girlfriend never died but let him hurt so much for so long. His brother and the only close friend he has left both think his grief has overwhelmed his sense and that he’s gone crazy. He’s utterly alone.

The Red Robin series is such a great culmination for Tim. He finds a place for himself as a hero, as a CEO. He gets parts of his family back—Bruce, Steph, Bart, Conner. He finally figures out who he wants to be and creates a place for himself.

This overarching character development is what I love about Tim. His many, many traumas impact his decisions, and you can clearly see how he changes over time as a result of them. I didn’t even go into his development as a leader from his early fumbling with Young Justice to his strong leadership of the Teen Titans, or how his relationships with Conner, Bart, and Cassie develop so fluidly and realistically over the years.

This is why I love Tim. Characters like Batman are static; nothing that happens to them will ever have a lasting impact, because in the end the character always returns to what they were. Tim, on the other hand, has changed and developed A LOT since his initial appearance. His growth has always been consistent and logical.

When the reboot happened, all of that character growth was lost. Tim was replaced with a jerk who betrayed his friends and cheated on his girlfriend. DC has basically retconned all of this and tried to turn Tim back into who he was, but by taking away all of the things that have happened to him over the years, Tim has lost SO MUCH.

I keep looking for my Tim in recent comics, and I just can’t find him. It breaks my heart, because I love him so much, and it feels like he’s lost to me forever. The most recent Young Justice comic series actually gave me hope; I felt like maybe, finally, someone was going to write Tim correctly. He had his primary friendships back, his relationship with Steph was developing (even if they seem to have completely dropped all the development around Steph’s decision to let Tim think she was dead). The actual book itself wasn’t fantastic, but it felt like they were headed in the right direction.

Over the last few days, I read the Batman: Urban Legends books. I actually read the Batman/Red Hood story first, which was fantastic. I was really excited to read Tim’s story (though I already knew how it ended). Jason’s character was handled so well, and he seemed to actually have some character development that will hopefully last. I anticipated the same for Tim.

But Tim’s story was awful. The plot was all over the place—kids are being kidnapped, so Tim has to join a pain cult to get them back? He’s somehow helping Oracle with computer issues while simultaneously questioning witnesses? He’s broken up with Steph, off camera, shortly after telling her how much he loves her, but Steph somehow thinks that they should have a caring relationship where Tim tells her what he’s feeling? Bernard has somehow become a good enough fighter to stand side by side with Robin? Tim STILL doesn’t have a code name? Why is everyone suddenly hounding him about what he wants to do with his life?

It’s just such a mess of a story. If it didn’t end with Tim agreeing to go on a date with Bernard, no one would ever have even mentioned it. There’s nothing particularly re-readable or enjoyable about it.

I actually liked that they brought Bernard back. I really enjoyed him in the original Robin series. It’s been a while since I read that part of the series (I’m actually working my way back through it now). I know Bernard always read as gay to me, yet somehow I felt like he was out of character in these books.

And then, the climax of the story. Tim is bi, or gay, or has at least agreed to go on a date with a boy.

If this had happened in the pre-boot, when Tim was Red Robin and had an actual character arc, I honestly wouldn’t have had an issue with it. I do think it would have needed a LOT more build up than it was given here. Tim has always been a very introspective character, and we’ve been party to so much of his internal monologue over the years. It seems very strange to me that such a huge thing just sneaks up on him out of nowhere when he’s never even thought about it before.

But more than that, this story just feels like the final death blow for the Tim I loved. The whole arc is about how Tim doesn’t know who he is or who he wants to be. What will his hero name be? Will he go to college? What is he going to do with his life? These are all great questions, and his answer to all of them is… date a boy?

Is this going to be his defining characteristic going forward? From here will we just see Tim exploring and discovering his sexuality? The Tim we have now doesn’t have a family, a team, a purpose, or even a code name. Why was this the thing that DC decided to give us? It feels like they wanted to make a gay Robin and decided it would be Tim because they didn’t know what else to do with him.

It’s stupid, but I honestly feel like I’ve spent the past few days grieving the loss of a loved one. The Tim that DC is presenting now is just not the person that I knew. Tim would never break up with Steph that abruptly for what he admits is no apparent reason. He would never say “just call me Robin, since Damian’s out of town.” Everything that I love about Tim seems to be gone, and in its place DC has given me a date with a boy.

Again, it’s not Tim being not-straight that I have an issue with. I’ve never read the character that way, but it’s something I can live with. My issue is the way it was handled. Why not make Tim an actual person first, and then explore his sexuality? Send him off to college! He’s obviously thinking about it! It’s the perfect opportunity to give him his own book. He can move to a different city, choose a new name, and DC can introduce a whole new set of characters. Figure out which parts of Tim’s backstory are still canon, and which have been dropped. Make him a person again, and then let him explore his sexuality.

I know this post is all over the place, and I don’t have time right now to go back and edit it. I just really needed an outlet for my frustration. Right now it feels like there are so many people who are so excited about Tim being bi/gay, but they don’t know anything else about him. I keep seeing people comment how DC has been “dropping hints for years!” with no evidence other than “he and Superboy were really close!” I guess I’d just really like to have some dialogue with other people who are fans of Tim, rather than fans of Tim-as-bi/gay or fans of Tim-as-straight.

Does anyone else feel this way? I’d honestly like to have a dialogue about it with other long time fans.

#Tim Drake #Red Robin #this is a long one #pre-boot vs reboot #this formatting is a little weird #Batman: Urban Legends 6 #Batman: Urban Legends 5 #Batman: Urban Legends 4

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sanchoyo · 3 years

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danny phantom season 2, episode 17-20 thoughts! finishing up season two! the finale is the THIRD 2-PARTER OF SEASON 2. that's so many! I wonder how many season 3 will have?

see prev episode thoughts in this tag <3

-UERGH WHY DOES VLAD HAVE AN AI WITH MADDIE'S FACE ON IT. SOOO CREEPY. AND MORE 'CREATIONS' waiiiit. vlad is Dr. Frankenstein! (despite his ghost design obviously referencing vampires) HE HAS 'CREATIONS' HE MAKES THEN WONT TAKE REAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR!!! this bitch.

-danny was late and his friends immediately start going off about how hes inconsiderate, and has been treating them like sidekicks??? he just overslept, my god. chill. even if he has, be nicer about talking about it with him?? he really can't help that he sometimes has to chase the ghosts, or has a secret identity to protect...

-'what kind of ghost haunts a miniature golf course' umm. me as a ghost. next question

-imagine going home and theres a tiny child on your bed claiming to be your cousin. with as many cousins I have, I would probably believe her. but the 'ran away from home' BIT....SHES 12?? SHES SO TINY. I hate that they have her belly out in her ghost form, but I like how her colors are asymmetrical. something about her design...maybe the proportions?? are weird to me...anyway danny was good to feed her, but he shouldve taken her to his parents FIRST. or, tbh, probably jazz. (JAZZ DIDNT EVEN GET TO MEET HER!!! NOOO. I mean she said she'll be BACK BUT STILL)

-ANYWAY. shes voiced by AnnaSophia Robb, the girl who was in because of winn dixie, played as violet from charlie and the chocolate factory, and was the girl from bridge to terrabithia. (the movie that made me cry hysterically when I was 12 and I never watched it again because it Broke Me!) thats super cool.

-vlad sucks: the episode, basically. what's new!! I love how he's like, I'm Not A Villain. *immediately cuts to him torturing danny to make him transform, to get mid-transformation DNA, to perfect a Clone.* *immediately shows that he doesnt give a shit about his new daughter Dani and just wants a ''more perfect clone'' and will put her in danger to get that. will let her DIE to get that*

-Dani is danny's clone and is a girl? transgenderism....one of them has to be trans. or they both are.

-dani just. leaving at the end. WHAT? SHES 12. DONT JUST. NO!!! SHE WAS PROBABLY JUST BORN, A MONTH AGO AT MOST, RIGHT?? SHE NEEDS...SOMEWHERE TO LIVE. MONEY? FOOD?? A FAMILY?? AN EDUCATION???! WHAT DO YOU MEAN SHE'S LEAVING!!! OKAY BYE I GUESS!!! D: concern!!!

-the next ep opens with skulker chasing a ghost down. ...does skulker count as a ghost hunter in the way valerie and danny do? I mean, sure, he hunts the good guys too, but he. he hunts ghosts...also, we haven't seen his Real Form since his debut episode! tiny...

-the guys in white are back! ngl, I assumed they were a gag for that one episode. you're telling me they might actually be a threat? ok.

-valerie in her lil nasty burger uniform looks so cute!! glad shes not in that mascot uniform this time. I guess she stopped hiding that she's working there now?

-gregor having white hair, dressed in black and white...and green eyes...sam has a Type, I guess.

-danny being unnecessarily hostile about gregor. danny!!! hes been nice so far. he looks a little...tall to be 14, but. danny doesnt know anything about him! (he does Suspect, but...you cant just spy on people and be rude to them from a hunch.) also, gregor kissed her, and when she freaked out, he was like 'oh no!! sorry, we can take it slow! I understand!' which was NICE. I hate jealousy plots still tho.

-altho. umm. tucker, being concerned about danny spying on them??? SAM AND YOU WERE SPYING ON DANNY AND VALERIE A FEW EPISODES AGO!!!!! im not saying its RIGHT, but dont be a hypocrite!!! AND THEN SAM BEING MAD ABOUT IT, TOO.

-DANNY IS A 7 ON THE SCALE OF ECTOPLASMIC POWER!!! out of 10? so I want to know where the other ghosts rank...I mean it's a list from the guys in white, so, it may not even be accurate, like, they havent seen ALL of his powers, have they?

-Lancer being like 'im not cooperating with the FEDS' until they said they could access his tax records. they already did that joke with jack, but like, its still funny. kings of tax evasion.

-tucker's aggressive third-wheeling. but gregor being super into it. gregor/tucker is the real ship here. then gregor kissing danny on both cheeks after hugging him. bi poly king gregor. (he does turn out to be a liar with a phoney accent. unsurprising, BUT THE CONCEPT OF HIM BEING GENUINE AND THEM ALL DATING IS FUN)

-THE...GUYS IN WHITE THINKING GREGOR IS DANNY PHANTOM. LMAOOO. GET HIS ASS. or,, Elliot. lmfao

-sam saying tucker is part of the package because theyre friends was super sweet <3 but also 'part of the package'...polyships are obviously the solution to these dumb jealousy/love triangle plots.

-danny crashed a whole plane. the collateral damage...

-is he....

-you know....

.... (ITS NOT GAY IF YOU'RE DOING IT TO PRETEND TO BE SOMEONE YOU'RE NOT, AND LIE TO A GIRL. RIGHT? he was getting a little too into pretending to enjoy tucker's company, and the above...c'mon, guy.)

-lmao, freakshow is in actual prison. I didn't expect a follow up, or for him to show back up! in the finale of this season, too!

-THE SICK TATTOO GHOST IS NAMED LYDIA!!! more Lore On her. freakshow seemed genuinely concerned about her. also, is she mute? I don't think she talked the first time we saw her, either. and we didn't know freakshow 'envied' ghosts, either, the first time, we just knew he was controlling them. interesting!

-...they literally stole the infinity gauntlet from marvel and called it the reality gauntlet. is that legal. what the fuck. even with the gems in the lil slots, having different powers...they had freakshow in jail, but didnt check his pockets??! hes just still in his lil outfit??? what kind of ...oh, its in amity park. yeah, all of the adults are idiots, okay, sure.

-'freakshow!' 'in the anemic flesh!' dude take some iron pills then. also, sure, the red eyes could be contacts for his aesthetic, but the whites of his eyes are yellow! does he have jaundice?! he severely needs more...like, every kind of vitamin. (this is what im worried about as freakshow attacks danny with giant robots)

-again, goth circus is a sick theme, and I love his goth train.

-oh FUCK every single person saw danny transform. on a stage. including his parents via TV. oh god. the guys in white and immediately like 'youre coming in for experiments!' SCARY. at least the crowd is willing to help him to escape...perks of now being a local celeb! even the kids at school are accepting :) this is what, the third time his family has found out? its always been an alt timeline tho. and danny fully intending to just rewrite things again instead of...I dunno, trying to roll with it this time? hes really worried his family won't accept him, huh...

-'maybe our son IS THE GHOST BOY, but its not as if our family's ghostly activities have EVER PUT YOUR FAMILIES IN DANGER' maddie. mmmmmmmmmmmm. okay.

-danny 100% prepared to run away from home because of this :( oh :( and saying his parents are 'looking for him, or a scalpel to dissect him with' ouch...

-THE GUYS IN WHITE TRYING TO ARREST A 14 YEAR OLD. fuck da feds.

-side note (another one about voice actors...) freakshow's voice actor, Jon Cryer, was lex luthor in pretty much every DC tv show, which is why I recognized his voice, because my dad loves those shows so I've seen a good bit of them without seeking them out...)

-the old man saying 'hey, i still had minutes left!' and danny saying 'you gotta watch those roaming charges!' about danny destroying the people in the diner's phones so no one could report seeing him...would kids today understand these things. can you even BUY minutes anymore...I remember my first phone being a flip phone, and the fact I always had minutes when my sister ran out super fast, because I didnt have friends calling or texting me like she did...:/

-the fentons being genuinely like 'why didnt danny trust us and tell us this, we love him :(' and JAZZ LAYING INTO THEM WITH THE 'DISSECTION/MOLECULE BY MOLECULE' LINES. LITERALLLLY. they need to apologize

-technically, lydias stronger than you! -jazz lesbianism moments! when did you even learn her name!!! but also get freakshows ass. lydia is also cooler looking. looove her design sm still.

-jazz psychoanalyzing freakshow... (also, her also having ghost envy? au where jazz is a ghost!! id like to see it)

-im glad the kids still got to go to their respective vacation things, even if they cant really stick around and enjoy them much...

-furry: confirmed. (also tucker calling her hot. tucker is a furry confirmed)

-danny being mad someone at the comic con is selling comics of him without permission, lmfao. give him his royalties!

-freakshow > thanos because hes a drama clown and does use his gauntlet to be FLASHY AND DRAMATIC.

-jazz's 'USE PYSCOLOGY' to danny about freakshow LMAOO. AND THEN IT WORKING. but, oh, freakshow's ghost form sucks. I like him as a clown better tbh. good thing danny took away his ghost powers!

-his parents hugging him and saying theyre proud :"( and saying 'of course you lied to us, we never gave you a reason not to!' and saying they were in the wrong basically for always talking about hurting ghosts aaaa :""(

-then he WIPED THEIR MEMORIES AGAIN!!! FUCK. I can understand him wiping the goverments/student bodies' memories, but why his parents?? they were being accepting!! ARGHHH. season 3 couldve been them all trying to adjust to them knowing!

-I know, on a meta level the showrunners probably wanted to just reset things to the status quo of him having a secret identity. But. We've been doing that for (2) seasons, I'd love if season 3 could be like, his parents adjusting to this and trying way harder to learn more and accept it (and the shenanigans that could come from that) and for fun, if he didn't wipe the students memories, it could be him being popular for a while, then everyone slowly realizing, oh, he's still Danny. Like. he might have ghost powers but hes Just The Same Guy instead of putting him on a pedestal (and seeing them all try and help him hide it from the giw/people who don't know!!)

-fuck they didn't even explain WHY he wiped everyone except sam, tucker and jazz's memories. he just Did It right when his parents were saying they loved/accepted him!! and sam and tucker didnt question it at all!!! HELLO??? very annoyed about this turn of events.

-anyway. onto season 3! I know its shorter than the first two seasons, and is the last season... I might just do it in 2 bursts if I can... :3c depends on the episodes' content and how much I want to say about each!

#sanchoyorambles #danny phantom #dp thoughts

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flashfuture · 3 years

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Conner going on about a book he likes and Kyle looking at him like he’s the actual world is a big vibe I see them having, also Conn seeing Kyle loose it explaining the significance of an art piece in a gallery and just Conn’s face says “this is one of my favorite people.”

ROY BEING THE SUPPORTIVE BRO IS ALL I WANT. Wally being the supportive but more snarky friend is also something that is so precious to me and in character. Okay off topic but my favorite dc couple moment is when linda and Wally are out to lunch and they judge other couples together like how dare dc rob us of obviously made for each other soulmates. If Jai and Iris II Dont inherit their parents snark dc doesn’t have a braincell between them.

Conn incredibly romantizing their dates because that is legit how he remembers them can be so personal to me. Also imaging northern Cali boy Kyle trying to skate is funny, however I can see him rollerblading well.

YES! Their road trip, ugh, sleeping under the stars with a boy youve known for less than a week, thinking to yourself how handsome he is and you, a disaster bi, trying to sus out if he’s gay but really your just happy to have a friend as well. Them stargazing together out in the middle of nowhere probabky becomes a tradition for them. Tbh gazing out at the stars in the desert/beach probably has a lot of sentimental value to Kyle, cause like let’s be honest it was where we first saw him but where he saw the event that would lead the ring to him in the first place even if he didn’t know that yet. Tbh, I do think one of their first deep kisses was under the stars like this one, it seems like a romantic place to have a first kiss tbh.

They literally look at each other like they hung the moon and the stars. And knowing Kyle maybe he has lol. But they just they love each other so very much.

Roy is so supportive of his bro I just DC are monsters for taking it away. I am sorry to break it to you but DC stomped out all their brain cells like jumping on grapes to make wine in the 80s when they killed Barry Allen. Quickly followed by Marvel Comics in the 90s who contributed their brain cells to the mix with the clone saga. (i kid I kid I love spider-mans brothers/clones like my own children)

Kyle can rollerblade very well I’m sure of it. He went to art school in LA and then like quit or something to be a free lance artist. that boy could afford nothing but roller skates. (Alex had the jeep lol)

it does and yes going out into the desert to stargaze is everything to me. Okay and Conn figures out it’s something Kyle and Alex used to do and he doesn’t wanna like take over that thing. But Kyle just says it reminds him of her and he hopes that doesn’t bother Conn. And like it doesn’t if there is one thing consistent for everyone of Kyle’s SOs and everyone really is that they all know how much he loved Alex and they all respect the hell out of her. So yeah Kyle is happy to do the things he loves doing with whoever he loves you know.

It is very romantic. They’re very romantic. I love them because they were just like you know most of these friendships are fight the bad guys chill in the down times. These two were like let’s chill oh and also I guess we should probably kick the shit out of these asshole cops or whatever. I love them

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jupitermelichios · 6 years

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Daughter of the Demon: on writing the Al Ghuls

I can’t make any promises about when the next chapter of Gotham Ghoul will go up, but I can make the promise that when it does, it will include the first appearance of Talia Al Ghul into the narrative proper.

She’s been there in the meta-narrative since the beginning, as she always is in stories featuring a younger Damian, but it’s been in hints and allusions. This will be her first chance to speak for herself.

And that got me thinking, about Talia as a character, about her history, and about the way I write her, and I thought I would share those thoughts with you here.

Talia, probably more than any other major DC character (certainly more than any other Major Bat-roster character), is defined by her relationships. Specifically her relationships with men. She is Raas’s daughter, Bruce’s 'one that got away’, Damian’s mother, Jason’s ‘it’s complicated’. She isn’t her own anything.

In her earliest appearances, she’s as close to a strong female character as you were going to get, given the time it was written and her race (more on that below). But’s she’s still a stereotype. She’s a non-white woman, physically strong but emotionally vulnerable, who falls in love with a white man who can’t return her feelings (nominally because of her morality, meta-narratively because she’s not white) and betrays her culture for him, only to be abandoned later on. It’s not a new story - it’s one Hollywood loves. Most often it gets assigned to women from East Asia, but Arab and Indian women got it a lot as well. Talia is certainly one of the better examples of this, she has a lot more freedom than most women trapped in this trope, but ultimately she is still a trope.

After that, she was mostly just... gone. She popped up from time to time, but she’d already played out her assigned role in the hero’s life, so even though Raas stuck around, she was very much shunted into the background.

Then Grant Morrison came along and turned her into a villain by creating Damian. We find out she had a child with Bruce a decade ago and chose not to tell him. She raised Damian to be an assassin, taught him how to kill, and then basically dumps him on Bruce’s doorstep with a note around his neck saying “please look after this child”. And there are a hundred possible reasons for this, but they’re never given. She is made a villain by silence.

She managed to remain morally grey for a few years, but it didn’t take long for the demonisation of Talia to begin in earnest. (Probably didn’t help that this was the mid-2000s - not a good time to be Arab in American media). The recent introduction of Damian into DC’s animated movie universe included the reveal that Talia just straight up didn’t love her only son. Seriously, that’s the big end of movie plot twist - Talia is evil and doesn’t love her son. In more recent comics, Talia actually clones Damian because Damian isn’t the obedient killing machine she had wanted. This clone goes on to kill the original Damian. (It’s okay, he got better).

In between tragic love-interest and evil step-mother stereotypes, she has one other notable appearance. As the mother-figure and lover of a teenage Jason Todd. When Jason is brought back from the dead, it’s Talia who finds him, takes him back to a League of Assasins base and uses a Lazarus pit to heal him. She defies her father to protect him, cares for and comforts him, spends what is probably a fortune in money and favours getting him the training he wants, buys out a major corporation for him, makes no attempt to stop him from killing Batman, and begins a sexual relationship with him. He’s 15 when he dies, and 19 or 20 when he leaves. It’s not clear how old he is when the sexual relationship begins, but given his mental and emotional state, and the age difference between them and her position of power, the answer is too damn young.

When you add all that together, the picture it paints is not a positive one, and there’s a risk of her more recent appearances colouring her earlier storylines. It’s happened a lot, writers both professional and fan, assuming that Talia’s interest in Bruce is mercenary, that she never loved him, that he would never have had unprotected sex with a villain so she must have tricked him in some way in order to get pregnant. (That last one is at least supported by the confused timeline in which it is both 10 years and approximately 12 years between contraception and Damian’s first appearance, leading some to suggest later artificial insemination using Bruce’s sperm collected the night they slept together).

That’s one way to reconcile the various tropes that makeup Talia, but it’s one I hate. I hate that she went from eccentric but loving mother to emotionless monster in only a couple of years. I hate that her story is always one of tragedy or villainy.

For me, the key to writing a Talia who is sympathetic without being unrecognisable is her age. It’s never been established (as far as I’m aware) just how old Talia is. We know Raas is ancient. We know Damian is ten. Given that she appeared to be an adult in her first appearances, that puts her age at 30+. Beyond that, we have no idea, except that a lot of her behaviours make more sense when looked at from the perspective of great age. She kept Damian from his father for ten years, but ten years is an eyeblink if you have access to Lazarus Pits. She began a relationship with someone who was a child by the standards of his own culture, but to her, all mortals are little more than children, and he was a warrior who had seen battle - to her that it probably a far better measure of age than mere years.

Talia, as I write her, is a loving mother with very little idea of what motherhood entails beyond her memories of her own upbringing. She is at least 200 and considers all humans younger than their mid-40s to be little more than children. She kept Damian away partly because to her, ten years is nothing, and partly because she had no real guide for how Bruce as a mortal American human would treat a young child beyond the way he had treated Dick, Jason and Tim, and so waited until Damian was a skilled warrior before allowing them to meet. She is largely amoral, unlike her father, and her primary motivator is, above all else, love. Her life is defined by her relationships to other people by choice, because relationships provide anchor points in time. Technology might change, but from her point of view humanity has remained more or less the same. The reference points, the moments that mark out the years as different from one another, are her relationships. With Bruce, with Jason, with the lovers who came before both men and women (because my Talia is bi), and with her son. Her only son. The only biological child she has allowed herself to have in her long life. Keeping these people safe and well is her only moral code, but she isn’t a monster. She has no reason to be a monster. It offers no advantages (except occasionally when it is useful for protecting her loved-ones).

Her feelings for Bruce were genuine, she would have married him given the chance, but she was also willing to let him walk away, to leave her, because mortal lovers are always fleeting, it is something she has accepted about life before even Alfred was born.

Also she and Scandal Savage have hooked up in the past.

So yeah, this was a bit rambly, and my Talia may not be your Talia, but I wanted to have there here as I begin introducing her into Gotham Ghoul. This is Talia al Ghul as I see her.

Sidenote: I said earlier I was going to talk a little bit about Talia’s race. So. The way Raas collected bits of other cultures he likes and claims them for his own, his utter conviction that he knows what’s best for people better than they do themselves, the fact that we have no idea what his name is, the fact that most of his furthest flashbacks are set in Japan and China have lead me to headcanon Raas as not being Arab. Actually, I headcanon him as being white, and no one has the guts to call him out on it, although in at least one continuity his father is from China. Either way, I don’t think Raas is Arab. He chooses the Arabian peninsula as one of his bases for the same reason traders did - it’s a gateway between Asia, Africa and Europe. His disciples are primarily locals, and it’s them that give him the Arab title, which he likes enough to adopt. (In favour of this is the fact that none of his children have Arab names - Nyssa has an Arabic meaning, but it seems unlikely he’d call his daughter ‘Woman’. Talia is Greek, Nyssa may well be as well, and Dusan is Slavic). Talia’s mother is a local - Melisande is a French name, but it was also the name of a queen of Jerusalem in the 10th century, and I think it’s likely that that is what the writers were referring to when they named her. Alternatively, it may be an assumed name. Either way, Talia is ethnically half Arab, but the Arabian peninsula is her home in a way it isn’t ever really shown to be for Raas. The Cradle (located in the UAE) is her primary base of operations, and I write her with the assumption that Arabic is her mother-tongue. Damian is therefore ethnically a quarter Arab, although culturally it’s much more significant since he spent most of his childhood in the UAE talking to and working with Arabs, and it was the language his mother spoke to him most. He was raised to be totally multi-lingual, but Arabic will always be the language he has the greatest attachment too.

#meta #gotham ghoul #talia al ghul #talia meta #ra's meta

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surveys-at-your-service · 6 years

Text

Survey #109

Hope everyone had a wonderful Thanksgiving, and a great Christmas to come!

If you were pregnant, how would you tell the father? Well if you were talking about now there wouldn't be a father so therefore this situation wouldn't exist. But I'll answer it hypothetically. I honestly don't know how I would considering it wouldn't be exciting for me seeing as I don't want kids. It'd probably just be a very serious talk where I make it very clear (s)he's going up for adoption. What’s the hardest level you can play on Guitar Hero? I used to play like everything on expert but now it's a mix of that and hard. It's funny, I still remember "What I've Done" by Linkin Park was the first song I played on expert lol. How many songs by AC/DC do you have on your iPod? None. Not saying I don't like any, I just don't really like any enough to have on my iPod. What’s your favorite country song? Uhhh. Probably "When the Stars Go Blue" by Tim McGraw. Do you shut off your computer at night? No. Do you like sensitive guys? Yes, but not someone who's over-the-top sensitive. If a guy wants to become friends with an ex, does it mean he still likes her or cares for her? CARES for her, obviously. You don't aim to become friends with someone you don't care about. Have you ever tripped someone? No, I find it rude. The person could actually get hurt. Favorite decade of music? Man... I like the '80s a lot. '90s metal is super nice, too. Would you consider yourself a flirt? No. Not saying I never do, but I'm definitely not a big one. What annoys you most about social networking? People get ballsy as fuck to say anything because they're behind a screen, yet they're too scared to say things to another's face. Are you an over-achiever? No. Have you ever been in a hot tub before? Yeah. Do you care if your boyfriend/girlfriend drinks? If it's any more than occasionally, yes. Do you like to cuddle? If it's not hot and I really like the person, I'm a cuddlebug. Do you like cinnamon on your apple pie? I hate pie. Do you eat the crust of your sandwiches? That's actually what I eat first. It's my least-favorite part so I get it out of the way. Do you know anyone who has a name that you hate and, if so, who is this person? Ha, Don. I hate the name Donald with a passion. Have you made a list of things you want to do before you’re 30? No. Do you like your shirt to be loose or tight? Loose. Do you know anyone with two middle names? Me, though when people ask for my middle name, I just generally give them Marie because that's the one I was born with. Have you ever had colored braces? Ha ha I did. Probably shouldn't have made them so obnoxious. Have you ever felt discriminated against? Yes, due to mental illnesses. People love to make assumptions. And currently with my sister's in-laws not knowing I'm bi, I know I would if they knew. Have you ever been sick on your birthday? Omg yes. I was recovering from the stomach bug. Do you believe good therapists exist? I have the greatest therapist in the world. Have you ever called a suicide hotline? I don't like talking on the phone, so I used the online chatroom thing they have. Waited about 45 minutes for someone to respond and then came my overdose. What was one of your childhood imaginary friends’ names? I didn't have imaginary friends. Do you ever get so nervous that you can’t even think? Yup, mainly in arguments. I can't think AT ALL in arguments. How do you feel about the people who are teased in high school suing the bullies who teased them for emotional damage? I didn't know that was a thing, but if you were truly hurt, go for it. Do you believe that people live in their own worlds or realities or do you think we all share the same world/reality? The latter. Do you believe that everyone who doesn’t believe in your religion is going to Hell? I'd like to believe agnostics go to Heaven. It seems pretty cruel to punish a person for not knowing. This is a stretch, but I even hope atheists who are good people go to Heaven by living Christ-like. Sending good people to Hell just sounds wrong. When (and if) people (or animals) go to heaven, do they become angels? No, spirits and angels are two different things. Do you like when people call you things like “baby”, “sweetie”, “hun”, etc? So long it's not "babe/baby" or "sexy," yeah. Have you ever seen someone sleepwalk? Yes. My little sister legit tried to go outside. Do you believe that there are certain circumstances when cheating is allowed? Nope. Do you prefer earbuds or headphones? The earbuds that actually go inside your ears. You can hear pretty much everything. What do you want the theme of your wedding to be? Ideally, having a gothic-styled wedding would be a m a z i n g. Would you be comfortable discussing your sex life with a stranger? I have barely anything to hide and I still wouldn't. A stranger doesn't need to know anything about that. Do you think sleeve tattoos look trashy? No, I love sleeve tattoos. I also don't understand how a tattoo automatically makes someone trashy unless the content of the tattoo itself is. If you had to get a portrait tattoo, who would it be of? No sir, those don't appeal to me. I don't want someone else's face on my body. Do you like the smell of men’s colognes better than woman’s perfumes? I mean, it really depends. But as far as the majority of scents... uhhh... shit, I dunno. Have you ever given a pet to someone else? Yes. If you have, did it make you feel sad? Sometimes. Other times, they truly needed a home. Have you ever liked someone you didn’t want to like? Jason for a fucking year after we broke up. About goddamn time I no longer do. Would you rather be a mermaid or an angel? An angel. Being a mermaid honestly doesn't seem amazing. Well I mean... maybe if I lived in a reef. Does it make you nervous when someone does something dangerous showing off? YES. Have you ever had anything tailored? Prom and bridesmaid dress. Would you feel bad about breaking up with a kid on his birthday? You could've just said a person, "kid" sounds weird. But I highly doubt I'd be able to do that. Let them have a good day. Do you feel awkward with strangers in elevators? HA HA YUP Do you cuss excessively when you’re upset? I'm even more likely to cuss than I naturally am, yes. Do you have a beauty mark? Birth marK? Yeah, on the side of one of my left forearm. What’s the biggest misconception about you, personally? Uhhh... no one's ever told me this I think, but maybe that I'm disinterested in people because I don't talk much? I can see how that can be assumed. Do you know anyone who’s died in childbirth? I don't think so. What religious beliefs were you raised with? Roman Catholic. Do you enjoy dried fruit? EW. Do you like reading novels that are a series/trilogy/etc? I did. Where does your pet sleep at night? Teddy has gotten to where he wants me to put him onto the bed (he usually can't jump up here anymore with his arthritis) when he's ready to sleep, so I bring him up here. Cali sleeps next to my mom on the couch, and Bentley's usually beside her. Venus is usually in her rock, but sometimes sleeps behind her water bowl. Who wears glasses in your house? Are they near-sighted or far-sighted? I wear glasses and can't see far away. Mom does sometimes and can't see close up. What kind of pain reliever do you use when you have a headache? Advil/Ibuprofen. How’s your online personality different from your offline personality? I'm more outgoing and talkative online, but still have shy tendencies. Would you rather go out to breakfast, lunch or dinner? Breakfast. Have you ever burned a photo of you and a person you were angry with? No, seems rather over-dramatic. But I guess it could be therapeutic for some. Has a boyfriend’s/girlfriend’s parents ever gotten mad at you? Why? Ummmm I don't think so. I feel like my girlfriend's parents don't like me at all as they've voiced their distaste for this long-distance thing way too many times, but I don't think they're mad at me. Have you ever been friends with a boyfriend’s/girlfriend’s siblings? Not "friends," no. In some states people want to make it a requirement that creationism (god made the world) be taught alongside evolution in high school sciences classes. What do you think of this? I personally support both being a course of study. You pick which one you want to learn about. Have you ever had an HIV test? No. If your pet dies, you can now have it cloned for $50,000. How do you feel about this? I wouldn't. Wouldn't be the same to me, and I don't really support cloning. Do you plan to own a home or rent an apartment for most of your life? I'd like to own a home eventually. Do you hate when people tell you to smile? It really depends on how they say it, but generally, yes. Sometimes, you just can't force a sincere smile. Are there palm trees where you live? No. What do you think of foot tattoos? I don't like them much. Do you take a lot of pictures of your pets? No, the camera on my phone is horrid. Do you think it is sweet when an elderly woman kisses you on the cheek? It's kinda uncomfortable for me, and if I don't actually know the woman? DO FUCKING NOT. Would you investigate the paranormal if you had the opportunity? Fuck yes I would. In most situations. I gotta know about what's supposedly going on. Have you ever seen a coyote in real life? Hm... maybe? If you could find the cure for any disease, which disease would it be? Alzheimer's. As horrible as cancer is, we've learned how to beat many, but Alzheimer's... God, the decline is heart-wrenching. I've seen it and it's one of the most inhumane fates life can deal someone. Do you think you will be married by the time you are 25? It's a possibility. Do you know any TV shows’ theme songs by heart? Which ones? "That '70s Show," probably like a couple others that just aren't coming to me. What is the oldest gaming system you’ve ever played? Atari Did you get ice cream from the ice cream truck when you were little? Do they still have an ice cream truck where you live? We did occasionally. Don't have one here. In your opinion, which hurts more: physical or emotional pain? EMOTIONAL. Do you like people who are very expressive of how much they like you or do you like people who are more quiet and mysterious? I pretty much have to have someone expressive because I need to know they like me. I need to see it. What type of humor do you like in a person? Is it a deal-breaker for you if the other person doesn’t share a similar sense of humor? I appreciate all senses of humor other than ones that are just plain offensive or excessively raunchy. How important is religion and spiritual beliefs when it comes to dating? I'm open to dating people of other religions (or no religion) so long as it's not Satanism or a religion that believes one gender is greater than the other. Do you ever go shopping with your parents (not including grocery shopping)? Well yeah, I don't shop alone. Can't get there. Have you ever had food poisoning before? Describe the experience. No, thank goodness. What do your parents think about piercings and tattoos? Do you agree with them? Neither of them are against them, and I'm the same. I love them. Are you CPR certified? No. What was the last video game you played? "Alien: Isolation." Have you ever touched a shark? No. What is your personal feelings on manners? Pretty important. Would you ever take in an animal with special needs? Sure, but it obviously depends on the animal and if I could afford taking care of it. Do you ever feel judged on something you can’t control? OH B O Y DO I Are you friends with your best friend’s ex? No. Have you ever kissed two people in one night? No. Do you ever pay attention to couples and if they look good together or if they look weird together? No? Someone's relationship, whether it "looks" good or not, isn't my business. Do you often take painkillers? Not often, but usually when I have a headache. Have you ever had feelings for 2 people at the same time? I'm not sure... I've been confused about how I've felt about people before, but I've never had like, intense feelings for two people. Would you live with someone without marrying them? If the plan was to eventually get married, yes. What is your favorite flavor of Skittles? Red. Have you ever been on vacation with someone other than your family? Yes. What cartoons/anime do you actually like, if you like any at all? Both "Fullmetal Alchemist" versions, "Deadman Wonderland," "Pokemon" (I've only seen the shows from the first two generations tho), uhhh... Have you used Limewire before? Ha ha I remember that. Yeah. Do you like salted or sweetened popcorn, if any? Salted, sweet is ew. Do you prefer aquatic creatures or flying (water or air)? Aquatic. What animals are only native to your continent/country? Bison? Do you prefer classical music or jazz? Jazz. What part of your body has been injured the most? My legs. What food’s smell makes you feel physically sick? Hmmmm. Can't think of one off the top of my head. How many times a week do you shower? Four, usually. Are you happy with your relationship status? Y E A H What colors would you like to have at your wedding? Black and white, probs. Did you see the movie "Avatar?" I saw some of it while on vacation with a friend. Does your front door squeak when it opens? Uhhh I don't believe so. Have you ever found out that one of your parents was cheating? Supposedly Dad did, but quite frankly, I don't know if I believe Mom. She's lied a shit ton about Dad out of spite. Who introduced you to the band you love? Ozzy, Metallica, Korn, and Manson: Mom. Cradle of Filth, found them myself. A Day to Remember: Jason. Rammstein: Guitar Hero, lmao. Do you look like your siblings? Kinda, but not all that much, save for hair. Ashley and Nicole look way more alike. What do you think of teenagers getting married? Uh, no. You need more time to mature. Are you afraid of being rejected? You have no fucking idea. Mind you, not just in a romantic way. Can you introduce yourself to a new person easily? HELL NO. How many girlfriends/boyfriends have told you they love you? Three. One was full of absolute shit. Has anyone ever told you they wanted to marry you? Yeah. Have you ever had to have surgery before? What was this for? Twice. First to put tubes in my ears when I was two, a second for a cyst this year. What is your orientation? Gay? Straight? Metrosexual? Anything other? Bisexual, but gradually realizing I think I actually like girls more. Funny because I originally thought I liked guys more. @_@ Who was the last person close to you, that died? Did you cry? No one exceptionally close to me has died, but the last person I was at least acquainted with was a woman I met at the hospital.

#survey #quiz #questions

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