#Iel pronouns

[sexiestsex]

Leave your pronouns and language you use them in in the tags!

#Trans #t4t #Pronoun positivity #Neo pronouns #It pronouns #Iel pronouns #I tried to really cover the bases so I'm interested what other experiences people have

[ghostieagere]

this is partially inspired by @tinymoon-beam's regressed french rain ficlet (as well as all her other french rain fics !!!) so please go check those out, she's a really incredible writer <3

also just a general disclaimer that french is not my first language, i am very much still learning !!! some of the weird grammar/spelling things are to mirror the way i write the english-speaking regressed ghouls, but if you spot any other mistakes then i welcome gentle corrections <3

cw: regressed rain, regressed aeon, caregiver dewdrop, french rain, language confusion, rain not understanding english, aeon not understanding french, multilingual dew, a few tears of frustration but it's all okay in the end

~

“Arrête!” (Stop!) Rain’s raised voice catches Dew’s attention. He looks up from his book to see Aeon giggling as they nudge their finger against Rain’s tower of blocks. The tower wobbles as Aeon nudges it again, threatening to fall.

“Arrête, arrête!” (Stop, stop!) Rain cries again, trying to push Aeon away and save his tower.

Dew puts his book down. “Aeon, bubs?” The little quintessence ghoul looks up at the sound of their name. “I don’t think Rainy likes you messing with his tower, okay? He’s telling you to stop.”

Aeon pouts. “If I don’ un’ers’and him, how ‘m I supposed to know?” Their question prompts the both of them to look over at the little water ghoul, his gaze shifting between them, his brow furrowed in confusion.

“Je compren’ pas, Papa,” (I don't understand, papa) he says, voice small as tears well in his eyes.

Dew stands from the couch and makes his way over to the two little ghouls on the floor. He crouches in front of Rain and holds his hands out near his face, letting Rain lean into his touch on his own time. When he does, Dew smooths his thumbs over Rain’s cheeks, wiping away the single tear that fell in his confusion. “Ça va, mon cœur?” (Are you alright, my heart?)

Rain nods. “Ouais, ça va.” (Yeah, i'm okay) He sniffles as he speaks, but with Dew’s warm hands on his face wicking away the sadness, he seems to be feeling a lot better.

Across the other side of the block tower, Aeon whines. “I don’ un’ers’and, Dada.” Dew has to bite back a smile at how similar Rain and Aeon are, even if neither of them are quite aware of it at the moment.

He walks around to the other side of the tower and sits next to Aeon, holding out his hand for the little quintessence ghoul to take a hold of if they want. “You don’t have to understand, little star,” he reminds them. “You just have to–”

“I jus’ have to be kiiiiiiind,” they finish for him, drawing out the ‘i’ in ‘kind’ as they struggle to pronounce it.

Dew smiles widely. “That’s exactly right, Ae! Such a good memory you’ve got there, bub. Well done.”

Aeon grins back up at Dew, beginning to rock side to side in happiness from the praise as they turn their attention away from Dew and Rain and back to their own pile of blocks in front of them.

Once Dew is sure Aeon is completely absorbed in their play, he turns back to Rain, finding the water ghoul looking completely lost by the lack of French all over again. “Rain, t’as compris?” (Rain, did you understand?)

Rain looks over at Dew and shakes his head. “Non, j’ai pas compris. Desolé…” (No, I didn't understand. Sorry...) He looks back down at the ground, embarrassed.

“Non, non, mon cœur,” (No, no, my heart) Dew consoles him, holding his arms out in an offer for Rain to crawl over to him and be held. “C’est pas grave.” (It's not serious) They both hum happily as Rain settles himself in Dew’s lap, rubbing his cheek against the fire ghoul’s shirt and purring contentedly at the warmth of Dew’s body heat. “J’ai dit à Aeon qu’iel devait être gentil avec tu et ton tour,” (I told Aeon that they needed to be kind with you and your tower) he explains, smiling when he feels Rain smile against him as he understands the words Dew is saying. Dew continues to explain what he said to Aeon about understanding and being kind, and when he asks the same question of Rain, he gets a very enthusiastic “Je dois être gentiiiiiiil” (I need to be kiiiiiiiind) in response, the little water ghoul dragging out the ‘i’ in the exact same way as Aeon did.

“Très bien, Rainy,” (Very good, Rainy) Dew encourages. “C’était parfait!’ (That was perfect!)

Rain giggles softly and claps his hands as well as he can while he’s squished up against Dew’s chest.

“Est-ce que tu veux jouer avec Aeon maintenant? Ou tu veux rester là pour le moment?” (Do you want to play with Aeon now? Or do you want to stay here for the moment?)

Rain hums while he thinks through his choices. Dew can practically guess what the little water ghoul is thinking. If he plays with Aeon, they can make more block towers together and it’ll be tricky to understand each other, but it will still be so much fun. Or if he stays with Dew, he’ll be comfy and cosy with his Papa, but he won’t get to play with his friend. After a long while, Rain buries his face further into Dew’s shirt. “Là,” (Here) he says, voice muffled in the fabric.

“Tu restes là?” (You want to stay here?)

Rain nods.

“D’accord, bon choix, mon petit chou.” (Okay, good choice, my little darling) Dew rubs Rain’s back comfortingly as he speaks, watching Aeon over the little water ghoul’s head. They seem more than happy playing with their block and chatting away to themselves for the moment, but regardless, Dew’s glad Rain’s made the choice to stay with him because it means he’ll be able to interact with Aeon much more easily if they come to ask him something.

“Et– Et– Et après,” (And– And– And after) Rain starts, looking up at Dew with big, hopeful eyes. “Après, p– peut-être que je peux jouer avec Aeon?” (After, m– maybe I can play with Aeon?)

Dew nods down at them enthusiastically and feels his smile widen at the idea of his two little ones playing together without conflict. “Ouais, bien sûr, Rain.” (Yeah, of course, Rain)

The little water ghoul wriggles happily in his lap, letting out a very, very quiet “Youpi!” (Yippee!)

At the quiet celebration, Aeon looks up from their stack of blocks. “Wha’s happening, Dada? Why Rainy so happy?” They ask earnestly.

Dew redirects his attention to Aeon and quickly gives them a recap of the conversation in English. “Rain is going to stay here in my lap for a bit, and afterwards, he thinks he might come and play with you and the blocks again, okay?”

Aeon gasps, mouth wide open and eyes practically shining in excitement when they hear their playmate might be joining them again soon. “Rainy gonna come an’ pray again?”

“Yeah, bubba!” Dew responds, grinning. “Rainy might come and play with you soon!”

“Yippee!” Aeon shouts, giggling and smiling widely. “I like prayin’ wif Rainy.”

Dew watches them play for a few more moments before turning back down to the little water ghoul in his lap. “Tu as entendu ça, Rainy?” (Did you hear that, Rainy?) Dew asks, leaning down to talk directly into Rain’s ear. “Iel aime bien jouer avec toi.” (They really like playing with you)

It takes a while for Rain to reply, which makes Dew think he might be close to falling asleep if he hasn’t already, but eventually, Rain responds very quietly, his sleep-laced words muffled against Dew’s shirt. “J'aime bien jouer avec toi aussi, Aeon…” (I really like playing with you too, Aeon...)

#even though its short this has been in the works for a couple weeks so i hope you all like it :3 #also. “iel” as a gender neutral pronoun is kind of a heavily debated thing in french so it's not technically correct french but oh well #regressed ghouls #rain ghoul #aeon ghoul #phantom ghoul #<- for tagging purposes #dewdrop ghoul #nameless ghouls #the band ghost #ghostie writes

[libertea-and-icedcoffee]

speaking french and spanish and having non-binary pronouns is a curse

and i'm not even talking about the fact that the whole language is gendered

i'm talking about the fact that "elle" in spanish (pronounced "eyé" (?) is a gender neutral contraction of el and ella

but "elle" in french is basically "she"

So saying that my pronouns are iel/they/elle confuses french speaking people when they read it because they think that my pronouns are basically french-they/they/she and it's annoying lmao

#language #non-binary #btw i'm pretty much a beginner in spanish since i'm learning on my own #all that to say that i use “elle” bc i've been told by spanish-speakers about it #i wanted to specify because i know there's a whole discussion about latinx (apparently not created by actual hispanic ppl) and latine #so i might be wrong but i think “elle” is pretty common in spanish for non-binary people? #are there any other gender-neutral pronouns in spanish? #in french “iel” is the most common and recently added to the dictionary #but i know some people use “ille” and sometimes simply neopronouns #french #french language #pronouns #queer #gender #gender identity #spanish language #latine

[artisan-dino-nuggets]

a convo i had with my friend recently

me: i (an agender student learning french) really want to speak more french to build comprehension but i'm not sure where to look because basically all of the french linguists are in uproar over whether or not iel, the gender neutral french neopronoun, is valid, so that kind of sucks. friend: personally, i don't think any neopronouns are valid, but i support iel. me: ...iel is, by definition, a neopronoun. friend: ...no it's not? it's a normal pronoun. me: a neopronoun is any pronoun that has been created artificially in recent years. iel is a neopronoun. friend: no, it's just a nonbinary pronoun me: ...huh

#neopronouns #pronouns #iel #french language #language #nugget's ramblings #edit: i love my friend dearly and i don't want anyone in the comments being like ughhh bad friend #they're awesome and i just found this conversation... interesting lmao #love yas byeee

[galionne-vibin]

Desperatly trying to find this tumblr post I saw like a month ago that was about it/its pronouns and said something along the lines of "People who believe it/its pronouns to be demeaning are forgetting that the sunset is an 'it'. The 'sky' is an it. Love and the ocean are 'it's." etc.

I really wish I had reblogged it back then because this single post fundamentally changed my view and approach to it/its pronouns in just a few sentences

#rambling #took my opinion from “i must respect everyone's pronouns but it/its feels weird” to “this is actually so cool” #now i'm wondering if we have an equivalent to it/its in french #we literally had to make up a gender neutral equivalent to 'they/them' ('iel' pronounced almost the same as 'yell') #so who knows #french neo-pronouns are so cool too #i like to use 'em' because it suits me better as a demigirl than 'iel' which is a mash up of 'il/elle' (he/she) #plus it sound like the french verb 'aime' meaning 'to love' #so my pronouns in french are 'elle/em' lit. “she loves” #:3

[everysongineverykey]

the legends of localization book has reawakened my love for the nuances of translation and now i REALLY wanna take all the undertale dialogue and narration and translate it into french. for funsies

#i know i know french bad and all that. fair. but also: it's the only other language i know and am good enough at to feasibly do something #like this #dr could be fun too. i've got some ideas knocking around for that as well #the intricacies between characters of which would call frisk tu right off the bat and which would use vous #and the point in the game at which the latter characters would switch to vous. #mettaton's dialogue wouldn't be fun though. there are VERY few gender neutral terms of endearment #that serve as a good stand-in for 'darling' in french #very few gender-neutral terms in french at all honestly. but that's beside the point #maybe since french people are accustomed to a certain amount of english in their media #for example 'battle time' and 'game is over' in off and the like #i could just keep darling in places. it might be easier to have him use gendered terms of endearment #for people other than frisk. i'm thinking 'ma belle' for alphys. just affectionately. my grade 5 french teacher #who was from france #used to call me and the other girls in our class that affectionately #i mean. i wasn't a girl really. but you get it #ooh and i wonder what pronouns napstablook should use. i know there are community-made #nonbinary pronouns in french #such as ol and iel #they seem like an ol to me #i know many nby people aren't happy about iel since it's a mashup of il and elle #and therefore still built around a binary #and i totally get that but i don't think they're useless or actively harmful as pronouns! i'm sure there are some who like them and use #them #seam seems like an iel to me tbh #anyways this has been my short ramble about how i would go about localizing undertale into french. thank you very much for listening. bows

[raedasideblog]

theyre il/lui-ing raine’s ass in the french dub

#only in that one hooty episode tho #ttbk uses the appropriate iel pronoun

[summerfevers]

just learned there is a feminine form of iel (french neutral singular pronoun) don't text

#iel masc ielle fem. why did they do that #now its just a 2nd binary pronoun set..... #poplars.txt #french tag

[interdimensionalmenace]

so I learned about the gender neutral French pronouns “iel/iels” today and in a breakout room for our contemporary French class we ALL ended up being nb which was FANTASTIC and we came up with the best thing

I just learned about these today but my other two group mates had each heard different pronunciations of “iel/iels,” one leaning more towards “yell” and the other towards “eel” (v similar to French masculin pronouns il/ils, which is why we think it’s closer to “yell” or “yiel” in pronunciation). And we came up with the new symbol for being non-binary and French/French speaking:

Yelling eels.

Idk we thought I was great and I’m gonna make a pin design for it be lemme know your thoughts on nb yelling eels. If I make the design and put it up in RedBubble all us French speakers can use them to spite the Académie française

( j’apprends cette language depuis 4 ans, je comprend un peu and je suis un peu conversational, mais un peu seulement. Ne déteste moi pas s’il te plaît lol )

#iel/iels #gender neutral pronouns #nonbinary #français #my syntax probably isn’t correct pls correct me lol

[g4rchomp]

ppl who use gender neutral pronouns in places that have a gendered language are the strongest ppl on planet earth. you're sexy and strong and I'm sending you love

#when I see someone use 'iel' in everyday life my heart goes ✨💞✨💞✨💞✨💞✨💞 #I use it in LGBT+ spaces only bc I don't have the strength to do that everywhere #anyways if you dont speak english id love to know what gender neutral pronouns are in your language so let meknow! :^)

[lilalbatross]

yo wait someone on this work call has neopronouns listed??? including in french which i've never seen before???

#iel | xe is what it says for the record #most people don't list pronouns but i've seen it more and more #rad rad rad

[modern-alebrije]

"elle" wig!

#iel too #i didn't know the french gender-neutral pronoun thats cool #also unrelated but the box has no window #u can't actually see the doll #just a picture of it? it's weird

[gouinisme]

on one hand my best friend did accidentally out me to another friend who i didn't know if i was fully comfortable knowing. but on the other hand that means my best friend has successfully defaulted to gender neutral pronouns for me and that makes me feel very warm

#like i shouldn't be surprised she's known i use they them pronouns basically as long as i have #but still #someone this close to me who knew me as cis for so long genuinely seeing me #it makes me want to cry a little bit #especially since iel isn't ideal #like it sucks a little bit i'm not gonna lie i don't know any other gender neutral options but eh

[lesmotsquinousmanqueny]

French people on tumblr, let's talk about iel.

I like iel dont get me wrong, but English has a bunch of gender neutral pronouns like zey/zir, xe/xir, or e/em, so why not create more for the French language as well? Potentially one that works better phonetically?

One of my critic of iel is that it works worse that il and elle phonetically. What makes il and elle works is the combinaison of a distinctive, basic vowel with a L making a liaison with "est".

On the other hand, iel has a "yeu" sound more difficult to prononce than just a simple vowel.

So let me introduce you to

Ul/Ux pronouns.

"Ul est fantastique. Je suis allé chez ux après la course."

I wanted something easy to pronounce, a basic vowel + L which would not lead to grammar confusion. That ruled out A as Al would be confused with "à l'". The closed O of an Ol pronoun was not of my liking.

Remained U, a basic vowel that definitly stands out and is not a word in French already like à/a, ou or au. Ux is pronounced U in pure French fashion. The x is there for the resemblance with eux. That would help people to figure out the meaning at the first encounter.

So here we are, this ends my quest to create a gender neutral pronoun in French better than iel (based on my criteria).

Feel free to use Ol or Al if you like them of course, or to create your own French gender neutral pronouns, the sky the limit.

#neo pronouns #french #french on tumblr #iel pronom

[gay-impressionist]

Hi! I’m starting to learn French and one thing that’s both cool and weird to me is how everything is gendered in a way (referring to someone/whose saying the statement/etc.) and I was wondering how that relates to people who identity as non-binary or gender fluid in France? Are there equivalents to they/them pronouns or neo pronouns in French?

I do plan on doing my own research about this but I figured since I love your blog and you’re really open about different cultural lgbtq+ communities I’d try here first!

That's an awesome question... with a complicated answer lmao. So buckle up and bear with me !

Basically, you can't be non-binary in French. The community found ways to do it but it's not mainstream. Most of the time, they're going to get misgendered or will have to misgender themselves to get understood.

Some things I'm going to list here are not proper French. Actually, they can even be forbidden in some circumstances, according to the law (the use of inclusive language, and more specifically le point médian, was made illegal in schools in 2021 for ex) or simply because your company etc forbids it. So use this wisely, there is a time and place for inclusive language in France.

That said, things have greatly developed over the last two decades. Which was partly because of the queer community and mainly because of feminists, who are tired of the way French erases women. More and more people are using inclusive language, at least in some circumstances and circles (for ex, i wrote my master's thesis in inclusive language and it was accepted bc i was in a leftist faculty). And inclusive language is debated as a serious issue now, which is saying something.

So, how do you use inclusive language in practice?

There are different ways, as it's informal and mostly new. People are still testing new things and trying out various methods. You can stick to one or alternate or mix them up.

Pronouns

Officially, there isn't a gender neutral pronoun. We don't have an equivalent to they. You're either talking about a man or a woman. If it's both, you use masculine pronouns ("masculine trumps feminine" rule). Same thing if you don't know the gender of the person ("masculin générique").

The most common neopronoun is "iel" (plural : iels), which is obviously a contraction of the masculine pronoun "il" and its feminine equivalent "elle". It works for nb folks or to avoid talking about someone's gender or to refer to a group of men and women. So it's equally used by the queer community and feminists.

I'm pretty sure other neopronouns exist but I can't think of any at the top of my head.

Choosing the right words

Sometimes, inclusive language is just about learning to use alternatives.

Instead of using gendered words, you can choose to use gender-neutral words or words "épicènes", aka words which are identical in their feminine and masculine form. For ex, instead of "homme politique" or "femme politique", you can use "personnalité politique". Personnalité is a feminine word but it's actually gender-neutral as you can use it for women and men alike. "Élève" (student) is épicène, as a female student and a male student are both referred to as "élève". Although épicène words as a gender-neutral option only work in their plural form, as you have to choose either a feminine or masculine article for the singular ("les élèves" is inclusive but it can only be "un" or "une" élève).

As good as this method is, it can be quite limitating. Your vocabulary will be drastically reduced and it can be quite hard to master that kind of speech so you can reach the point where you don't have to think everything over for ages before you open your mouth.

With oral French, you can take it a step further by choosing words that sound the same even if they have a different spelling. Ex, friend is "ami" or "amie" but it's pronounced the same way so if you say it out loud, people can't know how you're gendering it (as long as there isn't a gendered article/word with it ofc).

It avoids misgendering people but the downside is that, as masculine is considered neutral in French, people will often think : no gender specified = masculine. Not even because they're sexist or whatever, it's just so ingrained in our brains that it's a knee-jerk reaction.

That's also why most feminists often prefer to use explicitly feminine words when talking about women. For ex, they prefer the word "autrice" to "auteure" (female writer) because the second one sounds the same as its masculine version "auteur". And as previously mentionned, out loud, people will assume by default you're talking about a man. It's a big debate though, lots of women prefer words that sound masculine - going as far as refusing to use feminine words at all! Which sounds cool and gender-bending as fuck but in reality comes from feminine words traditionally seen as less legitimate and serious. Even today, if you look up the word empress "impératrice" in a French dictionary, the first definition that comes up is "wife of an emperor". "Woman ruling a country" comes second. Using a masculine title to refer to women can also be a way to mock them and show they're not welcome (a french deputy got fined in 2014 because he called the female president of the national assembly "Madame le président" and refused to use the feminine title "Madame la présidente").

Recently the tendency and official guidelines have been to feminize words, so I'd say go with that by default, but respect other people's choice if they specify how they want to be called.

Anyway I'm getting off-track but what I meant was that in French, if you avoid talking about gender, you're automatically erasing women (and nb people). So if you want to include everyone, you need to make it obvious.

Inclusivity as a statement

The most common way to make women and men equally visible is the "point médian" rule, which you can also use to refer to non-binary people as it avoids picking a specific gender.

Basically, it means pasting together the masculine and feminine forms of a word and using dots/middle dots/hyphens/parentheses/capital letters to create an inclusive word. For ex, instead of saying acteur (♂️) or actrice (♀️) for actor, you'll write "acteur.ice". For the plural form, there are two schools of thought : either you separate the feminine and masculine form AND the suffix used to signify the plural, or you don't. Aka, "acteur.ice.s" or "acteur.ices". Personally I prefer the second option because less dots makes it easier to read and faster to write, but it's an individual choice, both work.

There are two major downsides to this method : it only works in writing + it isn't doable for every word, as feminine and masculine words can be quite different and pasting them together that way would be unintelligible. Ex, "copain" and "copine" (friend or boyfriend/girlfriend depending on the context) would give something like "cop.ain.ine"...

You can work around that by choosing alternative words (as previously stated!). And it's still a pretty good method, especially as it works for any type of word (adjectives etc). Some people argue that it's hard to read and ugly but personally I think it's just a matter of habit (although it does pose a problem for people using screen readers). Be aware that it is the most controversial version of inclusive writing, as it's the furthest structure from how languages typically work.

If you don't like dots or want an alternative for oral speech, you can also straight up create new words that sound both feminine and masculine, making them gender-neutral. To use the previous example, "copain" and "copine" become "copaine".

Obviously, this only works if it's obvious which words they're based on. I think it's a great way to make French more inclusive but I'd advise against using it with uninitiated people as it would probably confuse them more than anything. This method is still quite niche.

An inclusive, yet binary language

As you've probably figured out, inclusive language remains quite binary in the way we approach it. It's more about making things both masculine and feminine than transcending gender and creating gender-neutral alternatives. Probably because inclusive language was more often a will to stop women from being erased rather than a non-binary friendly gesture.

Which means, there are also some rules that were created to avoid the "masculine trumps feminine rule" but don't allow room for non-binarity at all. I'll still explain them because they're interesting and you might encounter them at some point.

The proximity rule ("règle de proximité") is one of these. It existed in Ancient Greek and Latin but was dropped in Modern French in favor of the masculine trumps feminine rule. Basically, you gender things according to what's closest in the sentence instead of systematically using masculine words to gender a mixed group. For ex, instead of saying "Les hommes et les femmes sont beaux" you say "Les hommes et les femmes sont belles", as the subject "femmes" is closer to the adjective "beau/belle" than "hommes".

Another method is to systematically use both masculine and feminine words (which I personally find excruciating to write and read). Meaning, instead of writing "Les étudiants mangent à la cantine" (students eat at the cafeteria), you'll write "Les étudiantes et les étudiants mangent à la cantine".

This is mainly for the subject of the sentence : adjectives and such are gendered according to the masculine trumps feminine rule. The point is to explicitly include women, not to make the sentence unintelligible or gender-neutral.

When following this method, you also have to pay attention to whether you put the feminine subject first or the masculine. The rule is to follow alphabetical order. For ex, in "l'égalité entre les femmes et les hommes", "femmes" comes first because F comes before H. But in "Les auteurs et les autrices de roman", "auteurs" comes first because E comes before R. Etc.

This method is common as it's the only inclusive language you can get away with, given that it's a valid way of speaking French. It's even mandatory in some situations now, like in job descriptions for the french administration, in the spirit of gender equality.

So, how do I gender a non-binary person?

In short, you can use the pronoun iel + avoid gendered words and/or use the point médian and/or make up new words.

But keep in mind that if you're not talking to someone familiar with these rules, you'll have some explaining to do. And looots of people are still very anti inclusive language, because they're sexist and/or transphobic, ignorant, language purists, etc. A few years ago it was the thing to be angry about for conservatives and anti-feminists so it's still very controversial. But if you're in a trans inclusive queer space or talking with intersectionnal leftists, go for it !

I hope I covered everything (fellow french, don't hesitate to comment!) and didn't put you to sleep lmao. If you want to see some examples, you can look it up on Wikipedia or check #bagaitte on tumblr (it's the french queer tag) 😉

#it's a slow but steady effort! #the fact that it was accepted by my uni teachers shows how far we've come already #a decade ago it would have probably been dismissed #i don't even know if i was aware this existed a decade ago #😅 #anyway THANK YOU for this ask #i hope it was comprehensive and helpful #ask #language inclusif #écriture inclusive #inclusive language #upthebaguette #bagaitte #french #languages

[our-nonbinary-experience]

I wish there was a centralized post or list of neutral pronouns in different languages... I do not live in an anglophone country nor am I of anglo descent. I know and use the main neutral pronoun in France (iel) but have no idea what I would be called in the countries my family is from as I can't access any info about the local enby communities...

That would be a super helpful resource, perhaps there's someone who has the time to make one!

If there is already one out there please share it!

#our nonbinary experience #nb asks #nonbinary #enby