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steamed-baozhas · 14 hours

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One nerd's musing about Chinese religion and "respect"

-I try to stay away from fandom discourse, but, much like how you can smell the stench from a dumpster fire without walking into said dumpster fire, I've noticed something that seemed to come up a lot in western JTTW + adjacent fandoms: "respect Chinese religion".

-Usually as a reason for why you shouldn't ship a character, because of fucking course it's shipping discourse too.

-And my first reaction is "Man, you are taking Chinese religion too darn seriously, more than people who are born and raised in China."

-My second reaction is "I mean, most of us are atheist/agnostic by default anyways, with a good number of what I'd call 'atheist/agnostics with superstitions': people who said they were not religious, yet believed in Fengshui or divinations and burnt incense at temples for good luck."

-My third reaction: "But why do I get the feeling that when you mention 'Respect', you are thinking about something completely different?"

-Then I reread an essay from Anthony C. Yu, "Religion and Literature in China: The "Obscure Way" of Journey to the West", and the metaphorical lightbulb just lit up over my head.

(Everything below applies more to Daoism + associated folk religions, but by the time when most classic Chinese vernacular novels were written, the blending of the three religions had become well and truly mainstream.)

(The conception of gods differs from dynasty to dynasty. What I'm describing here is mostly based on Ming and Qing ones; if you went back to Han or pre-Qin times, most of these would not apply.)

(I am one of the "atheist/agnostic by default" people. I just have an interest in this kind of stuff. I am also just one Chinese person, and an actual Daoist/Buddhist/Religion Studies researcher would probably have a lot more valuable information and perspective to offer when it comes to contemporary practices and worship. Like any people on the internet: take my words with a grain of salt.)

-Even in the past, when society was far less secularized, Chinese gods are not omniscient, perfect beings whose worship is a solemn, humorless affair. Some's worship are Serious Business, but that has more to do with the sort of gods they are and the patronage they enjoy, not godhood in and of itself.

-And even the ones that you are supposed to "treat seriously" are still very human. To use an analogy I've used plenty of times before: you respect and fear them in the same way you'd respect and fear an emperor's official, or the emperor himself, because if you don't, you are not gonna like the consequences.

-However, unlike Jesus, the emperor & his officials were capable of being temperamental, flawed, or an outright asshole, divine or not. Ideally, they wouldn't be, and if you were one of the "serious" believers——people who actually got an official permit, became ordained clergy, and went to live in a temple, you were unlikely to think of your gods in that manner.

-But it wasn't a complete, utter impossibility. The lower you go in the pantheon, the closer you get to popular religion, the less "serious" the gods and their worship become. By that, I mean general attitude, not sincerity of faith. You still shouldn't be rude to them, but, well, they are more likely to take a joke in stride, or participate in the "vulgar" pleasures of commoners because they weren't as bound to Confucian moral standards or religious disciplines.

-To stretch the same analogy further: you should still respect your village head, they could still give your ass a good spanking for being a disrespectful brat, but you were not obligated to get on your knees and kowtow to them like you would do in front of a provincial magistrate, the emperor's minister, or the emperor himself, nor did they have the power to chop your head off just because you were rude.

-On the other hand, the emperor would never visit a random peasant just to help them fix their broken plow or treat them to a nice meal, but your village head could, and your relationship would probably be warmer and a lot more personal as a result.

-Your respect for them was more likely to stem from the things they actually did for you and the village as a whole, instead of something owed to this distant, powerful authority you might never get to see in your lifetime, but could change its course with a single stroke of a brush.

-Now exchange "village head" for your run-of-the-mill Tudis and Chenghuangs and friendly neighborhood spirits (because yes, people worshipped yaoguais for the exact same reasons), emperor + his officials for the Celestial Bureaucracy, and you'd have a basic idea of how Chinese religions worked on the ground level.

-This is far from absolute: maybe your village head was a spiteful old bastard who loved bullying his juniors, maybe your regional magistrate was an honest, upright man who could enjoy a good drink and a good laugh, maybe the emperor was a lenient one and wouldn't chop your head off for petty offenses. But their general degree of power over you and the closeness of your relationships still apply.

-Complicating the matter further, some folk gods (like Wutong) were worshipped not because they brought blessings, but because they were the divine equivalent of gangsters running a protection racket: you basically bribed them with offerings so they'd leave you alone and not wreck your shit. Famous people who died violently and were posthumously deified often fell into this category——shockingly enough, Guan Yu used to be one such god!

-Yeah, kinda like how your average guy could become an official through the imperial examinations, so could humans become gods through posthumous worship, or cultivate themselves into immortals and Enlightened beings.

-Some immortals aren't qualified for, or interested in a position in the Celestial Bureaucracy——they are the equivalent of your hermits, your cloistered Daoist priests, your common literati who kept trying and failing the exams. But some do get a job offer and gladly take it.

-Anyways, back to my original point: that's why it's so absurd when people pull the "Respect Chinese Religion1!!1!" card and immediately follow up with "Would you do X to Jesus?"

-Um, there are a lot of things you can do with Chinese gods that I'm pretty sure you can't do with Jesus. Like worshipping him side by side with Buddha and Confucius (Lao Tzu). Or inviting him to possess you and drink copious amount of alcohol (Tang-ki mediums in SEA). Or genderbend him into a woman over the course of several centuries because folks just like that version of Jesus better (Guan Yin/Avalokitesvara).

-But most importantly, Chinese religions are kinda a "free market" where you could pick and choose between gods, based on their vicinity to you and how efficient they were at answering prayers. You respect them because they'll help you out, you aren't an asshole and know your manners, and pissing them off is a bad idea in general, not because they are some omnipotent, perfect beings who demand exclusive and total reverence.

-A lot of the worship was also, well, very "practical" and almost transactional in nature: leave offerings to Great Immortal Hu, and he doesn't steal your imperial seal while you aren't looking. Perform the rites right and meditate on a Thunder General's visage, and you can temporarily channel said deity's power. Get this talisman for your kids at Bixia Yuanjun's temple, and they'll be protected from smallpox.

-"Faith alone" or "Scripture alone" is seldom the reason people worship popular deities. Even the obsession with afterlife wasn't about the eternal destination of your soul, and more about reducing the potential duration of the prison sentence for you and your loved ones so you can move on faster and reincarnate into a better life.

-Also, there isn't a single "canon" of scriptures. Many popular gods don't show up in Daoist literature until much later. Daoist scriptures often came up with their own gigantic pantheons, full of gods no one had heard of prior to said book, or enjoyed no worship in temples whatsoever.

-In the same way famous dead people could become gods via worship, famous fictional characters could, too, become gods of folk religion——FSYY's pantheon was very influential on popular worship, but that doesn't mean you should take the novels as actual scriptures.

-Like, God-Demon novels are to orthodox Daoism/Buddhism what the Divine Comedy is to medieval Christian doctrines, except no priests had actually built a Church of Saint Beatrice, while Daoists did put FSYY characters into their temples. By their very nature, the worship that stemmed from these books is not on the same level of "seriousness" as, say, the Tiantai school of Buddhism and their veneration of the Lotus Sutra.

-At the risk of being guilty of the same insertion of Abrahamic religion where it doesn't belong: You don't cite Dante's Inferno in a theological debate, nor would any self-respecting pastor preach it to churchgoers on a Sunday.

-Similarly, you don't use JTTW or FSYY as your sole evidence for why something is "disrespectful to Chinese religion/tradition" when many practitioners of said religions won't treat them as anything more than fantasy novels.

-In fact, let's use Tripitaka as an example. The historical Xuanzang was an extraordinarily talented, faithful, and determined monk. In JTTW, he was a caricature of a Confucian scholar in a Buddhist kasaya and served the same narrative function as Princess Peach in a Mario game.

-Does the presence of satire alone make JTTW anti-Buddhist, or its religious allegories less poignant? I'd say no. Should you take it as seriously as actual Buddhist sutras, when the book didn't even take itself 100% seriously? Also no.

-To expand further on the idea of "seriousness": even outside of vernacular novels, practitioners are not beholden to a universal set of strict religious laws and taboos.

-Both Daoism and Buddhism had what we called "cloistered" and "non-cloistered" adherents; only the former needed to follow their religious laws and (usually) took a vow of celibacy.

-Certain paths of Daoist cultivation allow for alcohol and sexual activities (thanks @ruibaozha for the info), and some immortals, like Lv Dongbin, had a well-established "playboy" reputation in folklore.

-Though it was rarer for Buddhism and very misunderstood, esoteric variants of it did utilize sexual imageries and sex. And, again, most of the above would not apply if you weren't among the cloistered and ordained clergy.

-Furthermore, not even the worship of gods is mandatory! You could just be a Daoist who was really into internal alchemy, cultivating your body and mind in order to prolong your lifespan and, ideally, attain immortality.

-This idea of "respect" as…for a lack of better words, No Fun & R18 Stuff Allowed, you must treat all divinity with fearful reverence and put yourself completely at their mercy, is NOT the norm in Chinese religious traditions.

-There are different degrees and types of respect, and not every god is supposed to be treated like the Supreme Heavenly Emperor himself during an imperial ceremony; the gods are capable of cracking a joke, and so are we!

TL;DR: Religions are complicated, and you aren't respecting Chinese religions by acting like a stereotypical Puritan over popular Chinese deities and their fictional portrayals.

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steamed-baozhas · 20 days

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I feel like the jttw fandom sometimes portrays that Erlang betrayed Yuding by joining heaven in a certain way (he's a rebel, but will he support them or do they have some ideals in common?) or when Erlang punished his sister. I also remember that someone mentioned a parallel about how Puti and Yuding would feel betrayed by SWK and Erlang's actions. I don't know if you mentioned anything about the relationship before. But could we call it betrayal? Genuine question. Nor whether adaptations of the legends of Erlang could have touched on this topic. Idk if adaptations of Erlang's stories mentioned this topic.

I think it still stands that Erlang is considered more rebellious than many gods of the chinese mythos. This is still portrayed in JTTW if you notice how Guanyin was the one that had to recommend Erlang's services, not the Jade Emperor. That and the Jade Emperor had to pay Erlang for his service when anyone else was following orders.

I can't say what most people accept but I always saw it that Erlang Shen doesn't follow orders he doesn't believe in. That he joined heaven because he does believed that there must be law and order not only for the preservation of the world but also for the sake of balance between the three realms. He understands when Heaven must be questioned but also personally has experienced what it means to break Heaven’s laws, seeing how his own mother broke Heaven’s rules and this crime led to the death of his father and brother. If there was something he didn't believe in or didn't approve of, then I don't think he would follow said orders. I still like to think that heaven sees him as a double-edged sword, it is good to have him on their side but if any of the celestials step out of line he would be the first to act.

Erlang and Sanseng are both considered to have trained under Yuding, and they both joined heaven. Erlang had a single mission in mind, and that was to save his mother, and in his tale he was able to complete that quest, from then on out he would have no other conflict with heaven as long as he completed his mission. There was a chance that Erlang and Sanseng could have continued as immortals separated from heaven but they would still be followed under Eastern Heaven if they wished to be considered true immortals. Their being given the rank of deities would give them more freedom but also give them restrictions. There would be a risk of confrontation perhaps if they didn't join heaven.... but them joining the ranks of deity would not only allow them to work alongside their mother but also that their status in the immortals would never be questioned or challenged.

I don't think that joining heaven would have been seen as a betrayal... but I do think that Erlang putting his sister under the mountain could have been seen as one as that is a far more complex matter.

I have personally said this before that I think Erlang Shen kinda resents how his family turned out. His older brother and father were killed and his mother was trapped under a mountain because of his mother's crimes. While yes he saved his mother, there was nothing he could do for his brother or father. Not even fighting heaven and seeking revenge would help, rather it would cause more harm to others if he fought all of Heaven. He knew what it meant to go against heaven and what that meant for an anyone that wanted to start a family, what they would put their children through. Erlang Shen saw his sister commit the same acts that their mother did and perhaps... he felt betrayed by her actions on some level as well. That his sister would put her child through the fear and danger of being hunted down by heaven like they were. Nothing whether heaven was right or wrong to hunt them down in the first place, but that the outcome would be the same for her as it was for them.

That is why I think Erlang Shen was willing to put Sanseng Mu under the mountain, that he thought he was doing the right thing, as if trying to justify what happened to him. It makes him really multifaceted in how he responds to seeing his sister repeating their mother’s crimes and him resenting his own human nature, that connection to his dead father and brother, and what trauma it has caused him. I'm not saying that he was right to do so but that it gives him an explanation as to why he would do such a thing to his own sister. And in trapping her under the mountain he betrayed Yuding as well. He trained Erlang to fight against heaven to save his family, not to be the one to put it under again.

I think that Yuding would always want for Erlang to follow his own path, whether that aligns with heaven or not. Erlang was recruited by heaven, trying to justify his own pain that it was needed for him to grow, and thus he was trapped in the same cycle that trapped his mother, to trap his sister, trying to hold on to the idea that the pain that heaven did to their family was justified and thus justifying his own actions against Sanseng and her family. He resents that part of his human self as that is a constant reminder of why he was hunted down in the first place. That he always needs to suppress that and any reminder of that as well.

I feel like that is what makes Wukong and him good parallels in that Wukong was rejected by heaven but he still followed his own sense of justice. They both fought heaven, but Wukong believes he was wronged by Heaven’s disrespect and Erlang for the injustice his mother for the sake of family. However Yang Jian was the one to join heaven’s forces after his rebellion making a place in heaven while Sun Wukong believed he was owed more and more, pushing to the point of stealing three types of immortality. Erlang and Wukong refelct each other, both limited by society and their own desires to either follow their choices to their own destruction or learning how to change and adapt to their surroundings. Wukong is the one to try to overthrow heaven to fit what he deeps is ‘right’ through might. And Erlang instead joins heaven and choose to change what he deems is 'right’ while still within the laws. They are both outcasts (Wukong a yaoguai, and Erlang a product of an illegal union), both fought the Jade Emporer (Wukong for the sake of his status, and Erlang for the sake of saving his family), and both either being punished for their crimes or joining heaven, but only on THEIR terms. Erlang only joined heaven after his mother was saved and Wukong only joined heaven when he reached enlightenment and is no longer under the control of anyone in Eastern Heaven. They ended up in the same place but also refused to give up their personal freedoms as well.

I go off a lot here about their foils.

I also remember that someone mentioned a parallel about how Puti and Yuding would feel betrayed by SWK and Erlang's actions.

I can see something like that.

Wukong was exiled by Puti because Puti knew that Wukong's ambition grew too strong for not even heaven could control. He denounced him before he could even commit his first crimes, but Master Puti was wise enough to know what the future had in store. His most prized disciple led to one of the most devastating attacks on heaven. Puti prepared Wukong to take on anything but he never wanted him to on heaven and thus condemning Puti as well.

Yuding on the other hand had an active role in helping Erlang fight against heaven, to use his powers to save his family. He was able to do so, even gaining protection in his status by ensuring heaven wouldn't attack his mother or sister by gaining deity status. But in the end Erlang gave in to the cycle of pain and trapped his own sister. Using the powers that Yuding helped BOTH of them cultivate to harm each other.

I go off a lot here about Erlang's possible emotional turmoil with himself and why he would put his sister under a mountain out of his own free will.

I don't know if you mentioned anything about the relationship before. But could we call it betrayal? Genuine question.

I suppose as much as you could call Wukong going against Heaven a betrayal.

In the master-student relationship, students are meant to be seen as an extensions of their masters, that their actions reflect on their teachers, and that teachers can even be held responsible for their students' crimes as well.

Wukong by being Puti's student was not only to learn his power, but his ideals as well. But his ambition and desire for recognition and power made him discredit his master's teachings. Master Puti shows to value wisdom and personal growth focusing on the importance of cultivation in how it can help you rather than what it can do for you. Wukong was so desperate to learn for the sake of getting stronger but he never considered the consequences of his actions which led to him being cut off. Perhaps Wukong's lack of accountability could be seen as a betrayal if you think that if a person that you trust and care about isn't willing to change for your sake is the same then you can see it as such.

And Yuding could be in a similar case where he took in both a wayward Yang Jian and Yang Chan in order to save their mother and save themselves. They were being hunted by heaven, the only way they could survive was to learn cultivation, not out of personal desire but for the sake of their own security and saving their mother as well. Joining Heaven doesn't have to necessarily go against that, as their own convictions could align with the heavens as well but that Erlang used his power to try to justify what happened to him to repeat the cycle with his mother could be seen as such.

Students learn tools from their teachers and if they misuse what they have learned then it would be on them for such actions. A lot of this is speculation but I think that masters who see their students taking what they have personally taught them for purposes that go against their philosophies as well would have a sense of responsibility and thus a feeling of betrayl as well.

Nor whether adaptations of the legends of Erlang could have touched on this topic. Idk if adaptations of Erlang's stories mentioned this topic.

I haven't seen enough Erlang Shen media to know how often this topic is talked about or if there are any popular media interpretations of this. I would love to see a lot more of this actually! Not all Erlang Shen media follows the Lotus Lantern lore where he is one out of three siblings, as I have seen some where he is an only child like in the Li Erlang take. I know he is in a lot of FSYY media as well but not sure if that goes into his master-student relationship all that well.

In any case this is something I would love to see more in and def something I will try to watch more for my own sake as well.

#my friends are so smart and capable of so much psychic damage

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