yuliasolsystem

[yuliasolsystem]

One of the most interesting aspects of Legato as a character is that he's the only one who makes both Vash and Knives act against their principles at some points.

Everyone already knows that Legato was the first human that Vash killed willingly and while fully conscious, but just before that Vash was able to break free of Legato's control by "throwing off the shackles of the no-kill rule".

Somewhere I already made a post trying to translate this part more accurately, but I'm too lazy to look for it. A rough translation is "Vash the Stampede's body. And the pointed wings that emerged from it. No supernatural force could hold it all down. But that's why, up until this very moment, these two [forces] have been in perfect opposition. They [Legato and Vash] didn't realize it themselves yet..."

"...but one thing has changed. It was the time Vash Stampede threw off the shackles of his no-kill rule that he'd bound himself with for decades."

I interpret it as follows: Vash subconsciously restrained his Plant powers by not wanting to kill Legato, thus helping Legato without even realizing it. In other words, in this scene Vash not only lets his "dark" side come out by starting to fight to kill, but also accepts his Plant nature. In other words, Legato succeeded in doing what Knives failed to do: earlier, even Knives couldn't force Vash to fight like Plant.

That's the case with Vash, but as I wrote Knives also occasionally behaves contrary to his own words and beliefs with Legato. I've written about this many times before, though. For example, in the post at the link below, I mentioned three instances where Knives left Legato alive even though he had no particular reason to do so.

Note that each of those decisions to let Legato live resulted in Legato saving Knives' life later. And it wasn't a "return favor" on Legato's part, nor was it a calculation on Knives' part (Knives is really overconfident and each time doesn't even realize he's in trouble). It's purely a narrative device to show how much Knives really needs Legato and that he's invincible as long as Legato is the exception to the "all humans are bad and must die" rule for him.

In fact, if Knives had gone a little farther and accepted Legato as someone important to him (or at least clearly defined their relationship), then probably even Vash wouldn't have stopped Legato. I mean, if Legato hadn't decided to play "who's better, you or me?" with Vash, and instead used his own powers in the most effective way possible, he would have simply taken the entire city hostage and Vash wouldn't have been able to do anything about it.

#trigun #trigun maximum #legato bluesummers #millions knives #vash the stampede #my analysis #my headcanons #trigun spoilers #trigun manga

[yuliasolsystem]

I think the anime decided to simplify the moral, to make it more black and white, where humanity is good because other media have accustomed us to see humanity in fiction as sort of ultimate damsel in distress, and Knives is bad because he is against humanity. In the manga, everything is not so clear-cut and there are many parallels between the actions and motivations of humans and Knives.

And that's why Knives' real final battle isn't with Vash, who fought Legato, but with the military from Earth, who saw violence as the most effective way to solve the problem and were even willing to sacrifice the very people they'd come to protect.

what is it with trigun anime adaptations and having to dehumanise knives in order for him to be evil ,,

in tri98 hes just sorta not given much reason to be evil - yes he was verbally and at points physically abused by one member of the crew but not enough of that is shown for the big fall to feel justifiable . he just sorta went off the rails with very little reason to imo , although i cant really blame the show for this as the Tragic Childhood vol of trimax wasnt out yet so they had quite little material to work from

HOWEVER in tristamp they decided on this weird plot of him physically being ‘less human’ like he doesnt need to eat to survive , and personality wise seems very unconcerned with humans . a lot of the tristamp interpretations of the characters differ significantly from their maximum counterparts but this way of portraying knives as well as how his arrogance and superiority beliefs are portrayed … kinda makes my skin crawl . i just really dont know why they did this - a character doesnt have to be ‘not human’ to be evil , and i felt like it ruined knives’ character quite a lot because trimax knives is so different

trigun maximum shows that knives as a child was extremely nervous about being accepted by humans and even shows him crying from relief and happiness after he meets a human other than rem for the first time and he almost instantly accepts him . knives’ character is so interesting in trimax because he was SO caring as a child and that changed drastically because of the trauma he was put through , you definitely feel more of the impact of the tesla incident in maximum

and although knives IS non human , he takes a very human perspective on things , he feels very human emotions . hatred is an inherently human thing . evil is an inherently human thing . a character doesnt need to have inhuman emotions to hate humanity and this is where the anime adaptations miss the mark on knives’ character because they reinforce the idea that he needs to be MORE alien in order to hate

#trigun manga #trigun maximum #millions knives

[yuliasolsystem]

I think if any of those girls Legato rescued from the slave traders survived, they would remember him as their savior.

Also I don't think Vash is going to talk about Knives. Vash is very secretive, in fact half of the problems in TriMax could have been avoided if Vash had talked openly about himself, Knives and the Plants, at least to Luida and her people.

Fucks me up to think about how Legato's legacy in-universe after his death in Trimax (and presumably Tristamp) is probably gonna be how much he sucked and nothing else....

Like, nobody will like Knives but Vash will be long-lived enough to be able to eventually talk about his good qualities from when he was a child and his quasi-redemption in his last days. But who remembers Legato? Livio and Vash are the only living people with any extended memory of him and neither of them would have anything nice to say (and rightfully so). Neither of them probably knew he was a slave, either—as far as Vash can tell this dude showed up one day and hated his guts, for all he knows he's just another survivor from July! Outside of Knives, Elendira, Legato, and maybe Conrad, I don't think any other character knows his actual life story.

And to add on to that, there's no way of looking up that past either—he had no name or personhood before he was effectively rescued, so who could investigators or reporters or archivists track down for information? The human being that was Legato only existed for as long as he knew Knives, before that he was something to be kept and abused as an object. There's presumably no surviving family they can reliably contact, nobody to really say "yes I knew him, here's what his life was like, here's how we can prevent something like this from happening again".

His entire existence will be reduced down to "a human weapon that was freakishly loyal to public enemy #1" without any reflection on the mechanisms that made him the way he was because there's just no actual knowledge of his life.

#trigun #trigun maximum #legato bluesummers

[yuliasolsystem]

Finally new fanart. Young Legato.

#trigun #trigun maximum #legato bluesummers #my fanart #legato

[yuliasolsystem]

I hadn't really paid much attention to these frames before.

All the scenes between Vash and Knives in this chapter were essentially about the misunderstanding between the brothers, how different their values are, and how they try to force each other to accept their point of view while not wanting to understand each other's feelings (though half of that was lost in translation). So I think the point of this scene is the same.

Vash tells Knives that if he gives humans time, they can get better, and then we see Knives' face, he doesn't say anything back, and we also see Legato. I think at that very moment the thought was trying to sneak into Knives' head that maaaaybe not all humans are bad, for example Legato.... Then Knives silently turns around and is about to leave, but Vash gets the urge to mention Rem and the brothers start arguing.

The thing is, to Vash, Rem is a saint, but to Knives, she's a traitor who abandoned him and Vash to save humans. That is, she chose humans over Knives. On the other hand Legato, who is always with Knives no matter what, always on his side, for whom Knives is the whole world and the meaning of life. Legato doesn't try to downplay the evil humans are capable of, doesn't see Knives as a monster. Plus Legato can understand Plants, as his fate was somewhat similar, being locked up and used as if he was a thing rather than a living being. In other words, from Knives' point of view, if any human deserves mercy, it's Legato. He doesn't say it, and probably doesn't even let the thought form in his head, but he still doesn't want Legato to die.

#trigun #trigun maximum #millions knives #my headcanons #my analysis #trigun spoilers #trigun manga

[yuliasolsystem]

Is "Just try it sinners, I'll cut you right out of the sky" an accurate translation? Or is there something lost in there?

Yes, the translation is correct. Knives called the humans "sinners" and said he would cut them down, and "from the sky" follows from the context (he'd just learned that the Earth fleet was on its way).

[yuliasolsystem]

I just wanted to remind you that in the manga Legato knew that Knives had no intention of saving him. He used his powers on Knives to protect himself, which is what made Knives interested in him.

And then Legato was like "you can't do anything to me right now because I'm holding you back with my powers, but now I'm going to let you go and you have two choices: either you kill me, which I'll be very happy about, or you take me on as a servant, which I'll be even happier about".

And Knives' eyes when he realized that a human could actually see death at his hand as a gift.

So I'm thinking maybe it'll be about the same in Stampede, which is why Legato was given telekinesis (or whatever it is) in this version, because he'll have to defend himself against multiple small blades moving independently of Knives himself, whereas in the manga the blade was essentially part of Knives' body.

#trigun #trigun maximum #legato bluesummers #millions knives #trigun spoilers #trigun stampede #trigun manga

[yuliasolsystem]

Well, if it wasn't for the psychological trauma, Knives from the manga would most likely have grown up to be a kind and gentle person. It's even hinted a couple times in the manga that he doesn't hate humans as much as he's afraid that humans would never accept Plants as something more than useful resource (though all three English translations screw that up somehow...)

I know knives is supposed to be scary or whatever but the only version of him (character design wise let me be clear, he’s a menacing little shit either way) I genuinely feel afraid of when I look at him is trigun stampede’s knives. Like i saw that guy for the first time knowing fuck from shit about trigun and went Cool That Thing Scares Me.

Both 98 knives and manga knives look like snotty little kids I could theoretically bully in highschool and shove into a locker. Maybe knock his books out of his hands. That little shit could slice me in half? Sure. Idiot.

98 knives is the most loser looking if we really compared them all though. His English dub voice makes him feel even more like a loser nerd.

Yes I have read trimax yes I have seen the fucking Monstrosity he can and does turn into sometimes when he’s throwing a fit over his loser brother I do not mean That I mean regular normal ass not losing his shit Knives.

#millions knives #trigun manga #trigun

[yuliasolsystem]

In addition to the previous post.

If Knives had actually said "yes, I will be angry if you kill my brother, so start obeying my orders already since you've decided to be my servant", he would have made his own life easier and even secure the victory in the future. Legato is the most overpowered character in the manga, even Vash defeated him only because Legato himself drove him to the brink, and since Legato decided to ask Knives rather than try to break orders again, I think he'd take Knives' answer and quit trying to compete with Vash. But no, Knives decided to continue to give some mixed signals.

... so continue to hold my brother imprisoned, I rely entirely on your powers and devotion." (Here I didn't even realize at first that the scene takes place when Vash is already in captivity)

...so when you go into a coma and you're as useless as a log, I'll still keep you on life support, hoping that your loyalty will keep you from dying"

#trigun #trigun maximum #legato bluesummers #millions knives #millionsummers #my analysis

[yuliasolsystem]

I was too lazy to write or draw anything, but just so you know, I still think about Legato and his relationship with Knives on a regular basis.

Like why Legato first tries to kill Vash while violating Knives' orders and then, when given a real chance to kill him, asks Knives if he's going to be mad.

This scene from chapter 33 again.

In the last battle, Legato speaks as if by killing Vash he expects to become his replacement in Knives' eyes. But this panel makes it seem like Legato was purposefully trying to hurt Knives.

I mean, he's well aware that he's disobeying orders and doing something bad by trying to take away his master's most precious thing.

I see here the same logic as Knives shows in regards to Vash: if I destroy what he cares about, he'll accept me.

(That's why I first thought Legato was talking about destroying what Vash holds dear on Knives' orders)

It's ironic that in this situation, Knives wanting to save Legato is the healthiest display of emotions (as I wrote in another post, even though Knives said he needed Legato for some "work", he never actually tasked him with anything). And that, I think, is what gave Legato hope that Knives had chosen him over Vash. That's why he had that crazy smile on his face, not because his life had been saved.

And then Knives assigns Legato to watch Vash, which gives Legato even more hope. And it seems like that should be enough for Legato, but no, he wants Vash gone for good. But it seems this time he doesn't want to cause any negative emotions to Knives, so he asks if he's going to be angry.

It's a very strange question, and at first I didn't really understand why Legato would even ask such a question, what kind of answer he was hoping for. But now I think Legato wanted Knives to tell him straight that he was choosing him, that he was even willing to forgive him for killing Vash.

#trigun #trigun maximum #legato bluesummers #millions knives #millionsummers #my headcanons #my analysis #trigun manga

[yuliasolsystem]

Yeah, it was referring to the lore of the new anime, it's significantly different from the manga. The author of the manga, Yasuhiro Nightow, didn't really think much about worldbuilding and logic, he just took the well-known "humans fighting tyrannical gods who created them" trope and reversed it so that the "creator gods" are now humans. So it's a variation of the "rebellious artificial intelligence" plot.

That is, according to the manga canon, the Plants are definitely a creation of humans (and the implication is that humans created them from scratch), but since the mangaka didn't really think through the logic of the world, it turns out that humans know suspiciously little about their own creation. That's why I made up this "theory to plug plot holes".

A continuation of my awesome Plants theory.

Part 1 is here

In the manga, it's constantly stated that the Plants are created by humans. But humans know very little about the Plants. That sounds suspicious. We know from the manga that a lot of aspects about the Plants are kept secret (such as the blackening of their hair or the fact that they have consciousness), so why are we so sure that what is being said about the origin of the Plants is true? I have a feeling the general public was told that the Plants were created by humans simply to bypass ethical restrictions.

My theory that it actually went something like this: there was a certain patient zero, a woman who came into contact with something from another planet or another dimension, and after that her body and consciousness began to transform and eventually she became a proto-Plant. (Why do I think there was a woman? Because dependent Plants look like human women for no good reason. The manga isn't particularly fanservicey, so the standard "because boobs" explanation doesn't fit.) She started producing "offsprings", the usual dependent Plants. Considering how many of them there are, it is likely that she has become a huge "hive queen", continuously laying eggs, spheres, which are then placed inside the "bulbs".

In fact, they are not separate beings at all, but parts of the "queen" and share the same consciousness with her.

According to the Chronica, the Dependent Plants "are fundamentally one large collective consciousness. It is incredibly vast, but this "species" shares consciousness at a deep level, initially having no concept of individuality, so apparently "fusion" occurs without fatal collisions."

This explains why Conrad, who had the equipment with which he was able to restore Knives' body, simply didn't make clones of dependent Plants. Cloned Plants that are not part of the queen will simply not work.

Now I'll get to the question of why the Plants, or more specifically the proto-Plant, the queen, needed humans.

We know that humans are dependent on the Plants, and the Plants can simply refuse to work (like when the soldiers tried to shoot at the ark), so the fact that they continue to "serve" humans indicates that there is a benefit to them in doing so.

As I wrote in the first post, I think the Plants cause humans to mutate, gradually turning them into members of their own species. I think this is their way of reproducing, or rather spreading their species to new territories. Different individuals of their species have different specializations. The dependents specialize in spreading their genetic information through food, water and radiation. The specialization of the independents is to control the main population. This is why the independents are so dangerous to "humans" but still resemble them and are able to communicate with them.

Legato and Elendira are perfect hybrids and likely the model for what all of humanity should eventually become: a strong harmonious human body plus Plant's abilities. That's why these two are so close to Knives. Even though he, like the other independents, is not connected to a shared consciousness and knows only what Rem and Conrad have told him, he still feels that Legato and Elendira are closer to his people.

Now a bit about the Plants' conflict with the people of No Man's Land.

We know that the Plants were not happy with the way they were being treated, although they did not wish for the complete genocide of the planet's population. On this page we can see exactly what they didn't like.

We see how friendly Plant is to the human worker in the first frame, but then it shows what the Plants don't like: people taking too much biomass, people throwing expensive parties for the upper class (and this on a planet where the majority of the population lives in starvation!), people making products to sell for money, even though it's important to the Plants that resources are distributed as evenly as possible. And on top of that, the Plants are dying as a result of these actions, and given that they share a single consciousness, it's not only their shared pain, it's also the death of a piece of their shared identity.

[yuliasolsystem]

I don't think my "theory" has anything to do with canon, it's just an attempt to plug a few plot holes in the manga.

And I meant that it wasn't the humans themselves who did something to their own DNA, but their DNA changed under the influence of the Plants. Because it's very strange that in just 150 years humans have mutated so much that 3+ meter tall people and people with paranormal abilities started appearing. And at least one human even developed the ability to create matter out of nothing (I mean Elendira, she's human in the manga, but she can create giant nails out of thin air). Also you don't die of hunger and thirst so quickly and suddenly irl.

But in reality, Yasuhiro Nightow, the mangaka was just thinking more about making the plot exciting and the characters cool, so the villains have superpowers because it's cool, and a whole town starves to death in a week because it's dramatic.

Behold my craziest theory about the Plants in manga.

Everything below is not my take on the actual canon, but rather just a fun theory I came up with based on some plot holes.

Okay, so listen: people in Trigan didn't just become incapable of obtaining food and energy naturally, without the Plants. They're probably genetically altered in such a way that they are unable to use food and energy that doesn't come from the Plants.

That's why they don't use solar panels on the No Man Land, even though it would seem like an obvious solution. And that's why the townsfolk in Chapter 47 all died out in a few days.

Soldiers speculated that it could have been up to two months after the city was cut off from the world.

But in such a period of time, the Ark would have time to fly over the horizon and it was seen on the fifth day of the soldiers' stay in this area. And the day before, that is on the fourth day, there were still people alive in the town and they still had the strength to make riots.

But on the 7th day, when soldiers reached the town, there was no one alive (except for one man).

"Exposure" in the original was "burns" ( implying sunburns). That is, people not only managed to die of hunger and thirst before the Ark had time to disappear beyond the horizon, but sunburns also were mentioned among the causes of death. So, the Plants not only provided food and water, but also somehow protected against solar radiation, which is probably why there are so few suntanned people on the NML.

This means that the bodies of the humans in Trigan are completely changed and die in a matter of days without a Plant presence anywhere near them and without consuming food containing Plant biomass (since even the cannibals in that town didn't survive). They are literally completely dependent on the Plants, just as the Plants are dependent on the life support terminals they are connected to.

And we also have mutated humans and humans with Plant-like abilities, like Elendira, who can create matter from nothing (her nails literally appear in her suitcase out of nowhere, they are neither stored in it nor teleported from somewhere else by some device)

and Legato, who can manipulate electricity and take control of other people's bodies, which is reminiscent of Knives' ability to control the merged being. When Knives "connected" to Domina with a thin feeler, it looked very similar to Legato's technique.

(It's not impossible, however, that Knives intentionally copied Legato's trick. )

What's my point? You know, there's this trope in horror stories: an alien ship/meteorite falls from the sky and infects the land and living things all around so that people, who lived there, become unable to live outside the ship/meteorite radiation zone or eat normal food. And they, these people, gradually turning into aliens or mutants. So, what if the same thing happens in Trigan, it's just that in this universe humans, unlike in all these movies and stories, didn't avoid the " impact zone", but rather took the alien DNA and spread it all over the Earth. So Trigun humans are no longer 100% humans, but part of the Plants' biosystem, which is why dependent Plants forgave them so easily and don't really mind to be "used".

This could also be related to the presence of ghosts, which can be both human's (like Conrad and Wolfwood) and independent's (like Tessla). The existence of ghosts is not revealed to public, most likely so that people won't find out that after death they will spend eternity in a gloomy black void.

What are independent plants for then? Most likely they are some sort of walking weapons. From the conversations of the Earthlings we can conclude that Knives is not the only aggressive independent (he was just the strongest of the known ones) and that independents on Earth have their abilities blocked for humans' safety ( so most likely all independents have weapons built into their bodies).

What's the need for weapons against humans if the dependent plants don't mind their position and "humans" are in some sense part of them? Maybe to regulate their numbers, or to stimulate their reproduction and further mutation, maybe the Plants need not humans but their souls (ghosts), or maybe independents are something like immune cells that get rid of improperly developing body cells.

[yuliasolsystem]

I think Knives didn't want Legato to die. He kept Legato on life support even when logically it didn't make sense.

Also I think Knives was counting on Legato to hold Vash down like on the ark. If you look at the look on Knives' face before Legato showed up at the last battle and after, you can see that Knives was very pleased. Plus he stopped paying attention to what was going on down below him, probably counting on Legato to handle everything.

Do you ever think about the fact that everything Knives wanted from humanity as a kid, love and acceptance and 'sharing the same heart',

All this, he got from Legato and yet he still mangled him and left him to die at the hand of his own brother.

Legato wanted so bad for him to see him as an equal, the same way Knives wanted humanity to see him as one AND YET.

#trigun #millionsummers #legato bluesummers #million knives #trigun maximum

[yuliasolsystem]

#trigun #trigun maximum #legato bluesummers #my fanart

[yuliasolsystem]

That scene when Vash managed to break free of Legato's control. The first time I read it, I didn't really understand what happened and why Legato couldn't control him anymore. At first I thought it was kind of like Vash just had his protagonist powers unlocked.

Events unfold as follows: Legato catches Vash, holds him for a couple seconds, but Vash breaks free. Then this scene:

Then a monologue about how "Vash has finally thrown off the shackles of his no-kill rule".

It's unclear how one thing relates to the other. It just feels like instead of the "power of friendship", it's the "power of bloodlust" that helped our protagonist do the impossible lol

I tried to translate from Japanese

it came out something like this: "Vash the Stampede's body and the pointed wings that emerged from it. No magic (魔技 It refers to Legato's abilities, I guess?? Usually that's the word for magic in games) could hold back all of it. But that was precisely the reason. At that moment, the two forces were in perfect opposition. These two [Vash and Legato] had not yet realized it themselves..." on the next page: "...but one thing had changed: at that very moment, Vash the Stampede had thrown off the shackles of the no-kill rule he had trapped himself in for decades."

A few things that all the translations have missed: first, I think it's not Legato speaking, but the "narrator" (yes, there are occasional lines in the manga that are spoken as though by the narrator rather than any of the characters), because he's speaking in the past tense and referring to Legato and Vash as それは本人達 "those people themselves", insted of "he himself" or "we ourselves".

Second, 両者 which I translated as "two forces" is usually translated as "both", but when referring to two people it supposed to be written as 両人. So it does not necessarily refer to Legato and Vash, perhaps it refers to the "Vash the Stampede's body and pointed wings that appeared from it"?

So, from what I understand, the logic here is something like this: these "defense feathers" of Vash's are weapons of destruction acting independently of him, but they were held back by Vash's body because Vash didn't want to kill Legato. So they were like two opposing forces. That's why it wasn't too hard for Legato to control both Vash and his feathers, Vash helped him to do it without realizing it. But when these two forces acquired the same vector, aimed at destroying Legato, then Legato's strength was not enough anymore.

So, basically "the power of bloodlust"....

#trigun #trigun maximum #legato bluesummers #vash the stampede #translation

[yuliasolsystem]

Yeah, let me remind you, Legato already tried to kill Vash. Knives didn't get mad and didn't punish Legato in any way. And he doesn't doubt that Legato can handle Vash, otherwise he wouldn't have trusted Legato to restrain him (that's why I thought at first that this scene was before Vash was imprisoned on the ark). Why the hell would you say you don't care about Legato's loyalty when your brother's life and the success of your mission depend on that loyalty and you know it? The only reason I can see is that Knives is just pissed off about the fact that he trusts a human.

I was wrong when I said this scene took place before Vash was captured.

The Ark is already in the air, and it took off after Vash and Knives met.

So Legato wasn't sitting next to the Vash's cell 24 hours a day after all?? And that also means at this point Knives was well aware that Legato could just snap Vash's neck with his powers. You know, do the same thing

but with his neck.

And Knives still said all this crap anyway. Instead of just saying "Yes, Legato, I'll be mad if you kill him". Ah, caring big brother Knives. He's so worried that Vash might get killed by humans that he provokes the only human who can actually kill Vash....

#legato bluesummers #millions knives #trigun #trigun maximum

[yuliasolsystem]

I was wrong when I said this scene took place before Vash was captured.

The Ark is already in the air, and it took off after Vash and Knives met.

So Legato wasn't sitting next to the Vash's cell 24 hours a day after all?? And that also means at this point Knives was well aware that Legato could just snap Vash's neck with his powers. You know, do the same thing

but with his neck.

And Knives still said all this crap anyway. Instead of just saying "Yes, Legato, I'll be mad if you kill him". Ah, caring big brother Knives. He's so worried that Vash might get killed by humans that he provokes the only human who can actually kill Vash....

#legato bluesummers #millions knives #trigun #trigun maximum #vash the stampede