#you don’t need to justify reblogging stuff of a character you don’t like literally nobody gaf

[not-a-space-alien]

hey its me again wall of text sorry not sorry

k i saw your little treatise justifying zadr and yknow its a cartoon its not the worst thing ever of course nobody is gonna sue you for reblogging fanart or burn you at the stake or w/e and im glad you decided to open yourself up to a differing opinion but zim IS portrayed as an adult. there was even an unfinished episode where zim’s childhood and growing up training from start to finish would be shown so by the time of the pilot he is definitely a full grown developed adult by irken standards especially if hes a former member of an elite military force like the invaders. jhonen has said that the irony and sad comedy of zims character is that hes a grown ass man and a war veteran to boot who VOLUNTARILY goes to an elementary school every day and throws hands with an 11 year old boy who should be well below his notice because he’s that pathetic and desperate for validation that he’ll stoop to seeking it from a child. it also sets up a dynamic between them where dib is CHALLENGED by having to go up against an adult with way more experience than him while dib is just a child, so when he wins its more meaningful, which is a common trope in childrens fiction that an underdog young hero has to take down a powerful adult villain.

jhonen might joke a lot but he’s serious about this part of the characterization of zim and dib and he even went to great lengths to make dib look and act more like a kid in ETF (more emotional and naive, designed to look smaller/softer, going in depth with his relationship to his dad and sister and needing his dad to protect him at the end when he’s too overrun to fight alone) just to drive home the point of how young he is. it was a very deliberate move and jhonen knows what hes doing ESPECIALLY since he also left zim pretty much unchanged and also includes gags about zim’s relative maturity like animating him briefly grimacing because his joints are sore and the part where he pretty much gestures to his crotch and goes “theyre afraid to look at ALL-A THIS”. like you would not see jhonen do that sort of joke with an underage character ok. dont confuse his social awkwardness and self deprecating/trolling humor for not knowing the difference between right and wrong and not acknowledge when he means something sincerely because he doesn’t just clown on people and troll ALL THE TIME 24/7 hes a human, and times have changed with more awareness on issues such as the grooming of minors so he can go back on things he may have said in the past that he doesn’t agree with now or said by mistake. he has said enough times that zim is older than any human alive that its safe to take his word for it by now. judging by the one strip he did in JTHM about johnny murdering a pedophile who was about to prey on squee i think his stance on protecting kids is pretty clear. also i wouldnt put it past jhonen to have redesigned membrane to be more chaddy looking to divert the adult fandom’s attention away from dib and throw the fangirls a bone but thats a whole nother can of worms lol.

and the justification that zim is immature so hes essentially on dib’s level is a reversal of something lots of kids hear from either creepy or ignorant adults who tell them theyre “so mature for their age”. no matter how emotionally mature you are it wont ever compensate for the number of years youve been alive so that’s not very sound logic, and even in fic where theyre both adults it’s still pretty weird because it doesn’t erase their history where zim knew dib as a kid. that’s sort of like a grownup waiting with bated breath until a kid is “legal” so they can start dating. kinda like when jacob imprints on bella’s newborn daughter in twilight then having it handwaved away by saying he’ll wait till she’s grown up, which understandably drew a huge amount of criticism. it’s a loophole that might be mildly acceptable in some cases but the context leaves it colored with a residual ickiness that sets off some red flags for me and a lot of other people.

also you said zim is an alien and therefore the situation itself is unrealistic, but the reason invader zim’s writing resonates with people is because zim is written with very HUMAN emotions and motivations and part of the humor again is how irkens despite being aliens from another planet mirror some of humanity’s worst flaws such as being petty, gluttonous, willfully ignorant, arrogantly believing they are special and better than everyone else, easily manipulated by propaganda, all too eager to greedily colonize other societies etc making them not so different from us at all. so the premise out of context might not seem realistic but the idea of a sad burnout adult who doesn’t realize how humiliating it is to be consistently outsmarted by a kid less than half their age IS realistic and applicable to human interaction since we’ve likely all met someone like this before at one point in our lives for example a schoolteacher who has a personal vendetta against one or more of their students and has nothing better to do than antagonize them, or a really dumb parent that you fight with a lot.

another thing, i know you and other fans probably have a lot of sentimental value and nostalgia attached to zadr because you probably shipped it back when you were a kid yourself and you cant be blamed for something you liked as a kid, but youre an adult now, and you have to listen to the portion of kids in the fandom who dont like zadr and say without question that the age gap makes them uncomfortable. those kids ARE the priority. we’re grown up now and we have to put our feelings aside for them because that’s part of being responsible and mature. i feel like zim himself is a pretty good example of how not to act at our age [shrug emoji]

and anyway a lot of the same elements of zadr can be explored with zadf just as well with just as much potential for cute moments and as a bonus is it’s not creepy

You do bring up some good points, and I’m not saying you’re wrong...  But honestly I’m still not convinced.  I mean, stuff that Jhonen said, the thing is even if it’s the author saying it it’s still outside of canon, that’s the reason why Neil Gaiman got flack for Good Omens because they didn’t write an actual kiss or hug or hand-hold between Aziraphale and Crowley yet Neil Gaiman went on Twitter saying they were queer representation.  I still don’t really put much stock into what he says because the unfinished episodes and Jhonen’s commentary don’t really change the dynamic that’s actually in the show.  And again...Jhonen said if there were going to be romance in the show it would be Zim/Gaz, so he’s either a huge hypocrite or doesn’t view Zim as being incompatible with Gaz.

I do think it’s much better when Dib is an adult and it just makes more sense, and I actually do prefer zadf to zadr and if i were going to ever write fanfiction or make fanart it would probably just be zadf, just because i know this does have some stuff to think about and I totally respect that you have a different view of it, but i honestly just don’t see it that way.  The analogy with Jacob imprinting on Bella’s child in Twilight isn’t really the same thing honestly.  The author in that situation tried to make it not......that....by saying that imprinting isn’t always a romantic relationship thing, and that Jacob would be more of an older brother, but honestly that doesn’t really negate the impact of grooming that kid would have with Jacob around.  The idea that Zim would somehow be grooming Dib seems really silly to me although you’re right, I think his characterization in Into the Florpus has evolved somewhat especially with regard to Dib wanting to get his father’s approval, but again Zim has parallels with that in trying to please the Tallest.  the world-building and characterizations are inconsistent and scattershot at best.  Like no, zim isn’t waiting for him to turn legal, that’s absurd, they’re nemeses coming at each other then learning to be friends.  You’re right that that doesn’t have to be zadr but I still tag it as zadr so people can block it if they want to.

Like, I’ve seen people ship Zim with Professor Membrane instead of Dib.  That seems very weird to me.  that professor membrane would have a relationship with someone who literally goes to his son’s elementary school and who doesn’t know anything at all about human behavior and emotions.

I feel like with this discussion people don’t really understand the problem with age gaps. With age gaps, it’s not a matter of mature/immature, it’s about development.  A ten year age gap sounds like a lot right?  a 25-year-old and a 15-year old would absolutely have a predatory “relationship.”  But a 35- and a 45-year old, that’s perfectly fine.  Having a difference in age doesn’t automatically make the relationship unhealthy.  so if Dib is 25 and Zim is [whatever the hell aliens years i still don’t really take Jhonen’s word for it bc he’s not consistent], that’s doesn’t mean it has to be bad.  The thing about telling minors they’re “so mature for their age” to try and convince them that a person interested in them isn’t a pedophile is that we know a human being who is 15 isn’t developmentally at the same level as a 25-year-old regardless of their behavior.  What is Zim?  All we have to go on is how he acts, and he acts like Dib is an equal match, it’s not “he’s immature for his age,” it’s very unclear.  Raw number of years isn’t the ultimate decider, for example in DnD lore elves reach maturity at, like, 100 years old so a 25-yo human trying to get with a 50-year-old elf would be predatory to the young elf even though the “younger” one is technically twice as old as the human.  Do you see what I’m saying?

I also don’t really buy the idea that Invader Zim’s writing resonates with people because Zim is ~~so human~~.  The guy steals a bunch of kid’s organs in one episode and flies into a tantrum over the slightest inconvenience.  You have to be reading really deeply into it and dig into some old internet archives of things Jhonen Vasquez has said to paint it as realistic.  You can do some interesting things with it wrt like, Zim being defective and starting to experience human emotions but that’s mostly fanon.

Well, you’ve given me some things to think about, thanks for explaining your side to me.  I’m still going to tag things as #zadr so people can block if it can’t plausibly be categorized as zadf.  I’m not actually making any fan content for Invader Zim so the point is kind of moot, but if I ever do I’ll definitely take this into consideration.

#invader zim #zadr #submission

[ironwoman359]

Edit: imma just keep reblogging this everytime I feel like it’s needed. Please consider reading and then reblogging.

You don’t have to be particularly interested in my sides (called traits cuz alliteration) to get something out of this, I think. Thanks 💜

(Taylor’s Traits)

Ellie (Sentiment): Guys, I think we should do something. 

Claire (Preservation): Uhh.....bad idea, Ellie. 

Dael (Logic): Wait, what are you talking about.

Ellie: Look at everyone! They’re upset! They’re fighting, some of them! We should do something! 

Claire: Yeah, great idea, weigh in on an issue that we haven’t seen actually unfold in and of itself, without all the facts or a clear idea of when this started.

Ellie: But Claire–

Claire: Not to mention, why should people listen to us? There are thousands of people in this fandom, why would they listen to what we have to say? 

Dael: Well, statistically speaking, they have in the past. 

Ellie: Yeah, we have a voice here! We should use it to do good somehow! 

Claire: Ok, maybe, but we STILL don’t know exactly how this all started happening, we’ve been offline most of the day and we came back on to this!

Dael: What exactly is happening?

Ellie: Character discourse in the fanders. 

Dael: Oh sh*t. 

Claire: Yeah, that’s what I said. 

Dael: Well, if we don’t have all the facts, wouldn’t it be prudent to go back through the tag and try to discover how this began?

Claire: That’s a great idea, if you want to make Ellie cry. They’re saying bad stuff about Patton. 

Dael: ....they’re what? 

Claire: Some people don’t like how he was acting in the newest video. Several are just calmly discussing and theorizing, of course, but you know how the internet can get. 

Dael: Oh my– this is why cancel culture is such a problem, I swear–

Ellie: So yeah, we have to do something! 

Claire: I still think it’s better to stay OUT of it! 

Dael: I mean...there’s so many arguments that can and should be made....I don’t even know where to begin. 

Leah (Insecurity): Plus if you make them, either A: nobody will read them, or B: people will hate that you made them and be mad that you tried to tell them how to feel. 

Ellie: Hi, Leah.

Dael: When did I say I was going to tell them how to feel? One of the arguments I was going to make was that everyone’s feelings about something like this are going to be different, based on their own biases and experiences, and that it’s important to acknowledge those feelings when approaching another side in debate. People are not inherently “right” or “wrong” for how they interpret Patton’s actions in a video. 

Leah: Yeah, but people might get upset that we’re trying to weigh in. You know what some people think of “bigger blogs,” what if they think we’re trying to overstep our boundaries?

Claire: This is why we should just do nothing, hide away until it all blows over...or never come out of hiding at all, that’s good too...

Ellie: Okay, Leah, come over here by me, you can’t get that close to Claire, you know what happens. 

Leah: whatever

Dael: I...look. There’s so much to unpack here, I don’t even know where to start...

Ariyana (Creativity): Uhhhh, how about with the fact that, while the accusations some have laid at Patton’s feet have some merit, literally ALL of Thomas’s sides have had times where their actions were less than perfect, and that while they all wish what is best for Thomas, they are each often misguided or mistaken in what the best is, and NONE of them can be said to be 100% innocent? 

Dael: Ari! When did you...you know what, you have a point. From Roman’s poor past treatment of Virgil and bravado to Virgil’s own misguided attempts at being listened to with fear tactics, to Logan’s refusal to compromise or listen to other ideas and Patton’s repression of negative emotions, none of the sides can claim to be as innocent as we would often like them to believe. 

Ellie: Well...that’s part of the problem too though. Remember the last few videos? A lot of people weren’t happy with Logan...and a lot of shade was thrown his way. 

Dael: Ah, I remember hearing that something similar happened to Roman between the first and second part of Virgil’s redemption arc. Not to mention Deceit’s first appearance. So what’s the problem then? Besides, of course, that this is happening at all. 

Claire: Some people have asked for #patton negativity to be tagged, and some people (I think?) are upset that because it’s Patton, people are protesting the discourse and asking for tags when it was Logan under fire, nothing like that happened?

Dael: ....is there any validity to that claim?

Claire: I dunno man, I try to steer us away from discourse usually. I don’t know what it was like last time! And I don’t even know that much of what it’s like now! But people are getting hate anons again and it just...

Ellie: It’s a bad time. 

Dael: Oh. Well...isn’t this better then?

Claire: What do you mean?

Dael: If we as a fandom made mistakes with how we handled discourse in the past, then asking for #patton negativity, or indeed, any #side negativity, to be tagged is less about favoring Patton over other sides or saying that you’re allowed to post negative opinions about the other sides and not Patton, and MORE about us growing as a fandom. We’re doing better now than we were in the past. There’s a difference between hypocrisy and growth. 

Ellie: Oh....well, what about what they’re actually saying about Patton?

Dael: I feel as though we as a fandom have already covered this subject, with the discourse surrounding Deceit? You can have whatever opinions you like about the character. You can interpret his actions in the new video as justified, as manipulative, as morally correct or incorrect. Any of those interpretations are fine, valid, and most are possible within canon. But when discussing/portraying those interpretations, it is best to tag appropriately so that people looking for that content can find it and people looking to avoid that content can do so. We also had the conversation about how you do not get to dictate what other people find upsetting. Indeed, the reason we haven’t looked into more details on this is because intentionally looking for negative comments about Patton would upset you, is that correct, Ellie?

Ellie: Yes, it is. I don’t like the idea of Patton being bad. 

Ariyana: Well, this is the thing. Patton being wrong or making a mistake is not the same as him being bad. Just like Deceit having some good points is not the same as him being good. Each character, each person, has the capability for good and bad. And if you ask me, this dichotomy is both what Deceit was trying to get Character!Thomas to understand and what Actual!Thomas is planning on discussing next in the series, that morality is rarely so black and white. THIS is why, as you said, Dael, cancel culture is such a problem. We must allow people to grow, and we must allow them to make mistakes, and then be forgiven. 

Dael: Exactly, thank you Ariyana. I couldn’t put it better myself. 

Ariyana: Well good, then that means we can wrap this up and hit the hay. I’m tired! Let’s go, Leah. No, don’t you mutter under your breath, it’s going to be fine. Posting this is a good idea, trust me. 

Ellie: Thanks, Dael. 

Dael: Glad to be of assistance. Are you two going to be alright now?

Claire: I think so, yeah. Talking about it always helps. I just hope the fanders are gonna be okay...

Dael: Well, if you recall other times the, ah, FamILY has encountered hardship in the past, they have always overcome it together. And I have seen no evidence to suggest that we should stop believing in them now. 

Claire: Yeah...you’re right, Dael. Thanks. G’night!

Dael: Goodnight Claire, goodnight Ellie. 

Ellie: Night guys! Love you! 

And I love you too, all you fanders out there. Hang tight. We’ll get through this the way we always do. As a famILY. <3

#sanders sides #ts sides #fanders #thomas sanders #patton discourse #deceit discourse #taylor talks #taylor's traits #long post

[lytefoot]

001 Drarry?

Character and ship ask game

I’ve actually got two whole asks about Drarry, but I was at work yesterday and then I kinda didn’t wanna… because literally nobody wants to hear my opinion about Drarry. Shippers and antis alike are gonna hate this.

when I started shipping it if I did: I really go back and forth on Drarry. Through about book 4, it seemed like a going concern–Draco appeared to be cruising for a redemption arc, and then the kind of Drarry that most shippers want to make go was on the horizon–rivals to friends to lovers, fun stuff. But that kind of died in book 5. The inquisitorial squad was a bridge too far. So I guess I stopped shipping Drarry, the first time, halfway through OotP.

my thoughts: Hoo, boy. I mean, first of all, there’s a lot of Drarry stuff, especially the art, that’s really spectacular. I have nothing against any but the most overbearing Drarry shippers–I don’t think shipping Drarry is a mark of any kind of moral degeneracy or anything like that. I go through phases of shipping it, though I’m not particularly right now, partially because I’m kind of bored with the Drarry tropes that are currently popular. There are interesting explorations of Harry’s character especially to be had in Drarry. (He came up out of Dobby’s grave as Mr. Radical Forgiveness, after all.) And there is potential for intensely entertaining interactions between Draco and Ron.

On the other hand, however much it was intentionally baited in HBP (I can’t believe JKR wrote “Harry was rapidly becoming obsessed with Draco Malfoy,” without knowing exactly how Drarry shippers were going to read it), Drarry was never going to be canon. Even if Draco had gotten a redemption arc after the genre shift (he didn’t, by the way), Drarry was never actually going to happen. Honestly I felt like Scorbus was almost a peace-offering for the Drarry shippers, in the epilogue. “Here, all y’all that thought they’d be cute together, how ‘bout you ship their kids? ‘Cause neither one of ‘em is a Death Eater and they haven’t spent seven years hating each other, you know?”

A lot of the reason I’m off on Drarry right now because it’s so ubiquitous and so overbearing. It seems like every meta post I have that gets remotely popular has at least one tag or reblog turn up that says, “And of course Drarry!” Like, why. Why you gotta do that.

What makes me happy about them: This is one of the big ships where you actually get exploration of Harry’s character, and also really well-thought-out actual storylines.

What makes me sad about them: The weird insistence that it’s somehow even suggested in canon, combined with this bizarre “poor misunderstood” Draco current. We understood Draco perfectly well, he was a s***.

things done in fanfic that annoys me: Weasley hate. The token homophobe (usually Ron) suggesting that homophobia is the only reason anyone might think it’s a bad idea for Harry to bang Draco Malfoy. Woobification of Draco, or equally, any sort of pretense that Lucius and Narcissa weren’t literally death eaters. (Ask me some time about my theory about Lucius and Narcissa and who Voldemort actually trusted, by the way.) Pretty much any anonymous sex based story line. Maybe it’s just that anonymous sex is a persona squick for me, but it always feels really out of character for Harry “you only need two friends” Potter. This really freaky predatory tone that I’ve seen in every Harry/Draco/Neville fic I’ve ever read (not saying it’s ubiquitous, I may just have bad luck). Run, sweet Neville! Run fast!

things I look for in fanfic: The biggest reason I read Drarry fic is that there’s so much good Drarry casefic, so that’s a big one–an actual plot that’s interesting and engaging. Pretty much any iteration of “The Weasleys love their idiot son,” I’m a sucker for. I don’t know–pretty much any thoughtful character exploration is appreciated. I’d really love to see “Draco is justifiably terrified of protective best friend Ron,” but I haven’t actually seen that.

Who I’d be comfortable them ending up with, if not each other: I really like Drastoria, frankly. And as I’ve said, I’ll ship Harry with anything that moves, even Draco.

My happily ever after for them: Yeah, I don’t know. I can’t see any clear end game for this ship, to be frank.

who is the big spoon/little spoon: Harry is always and forever the littlest spoon.

what is their favorite non-sexual activity: Moping and avoiding the press. (+10 geek points to anyone who gets that reference.)

#drarry #drarry critical #maybe #ask games

[skidrowflorist]

SHIPPING INFO.         Answer the following for your muse(s) so people         know how shipping works on your blog. REPOST.         Don’t reblog.

WHAT’S YOUR OTP FOR YOUR MUSE?:            seymour/audrey is obviously #fantastic, but it being my favorite doesn’t mean i assume it with my partners or that it prevents me from pursuing other ships.

WHAT ARE YOU WILLING TO RP WHEN IT COMES TO SHIPPING?:            we all know i live for the angst, but also things like cute domestic scenes, hurt/comfort, first dates, feelings talk, on again/off again ships, pining, friends to lovers, fake dating, pretty much anything, my guy.

HOW LARGE DOES THE AGE GAP HAVE TO BE TO MAKE IT UNCOMFORTABLE?:          depends on the age of my muse. in main verses, she’s 25. anyone younger than 20 would feel inappropriate. on the older side, things are more complicated. the issue on the young side is that you’d be getting awful close to ‘barely-adults,’ but this isn’t a concern with older partners. for audrey specifically, no one over 10 years older than her. this is by her preference, though, and not a rule of my comfort.

ARE YOU SELECTIVE WHEN SHIPPING?:           yes and no. audrey is a particular case in which there needs to be very little chemistry with male muses to justify a ship. she is dependent, needy, and craves someone to take care of her. so even if romantic feelings are very minor, it’s really easy to start ships. my general rule is ‘if audrey wants it, great.’ unfortunately audrey is very shy about her feelings, and wouldn’t make a first move, so i know it can be a little hard to tell with her. i promise i don’t bite, though, so if you think we have ship potential, i strongly encourage you to talk to me! i will be glad to hear from you!

HOW FAR DO STEAMY MOMENTS HAVE TO GO BEFORE THEY’RE CONSIDERED NS/FW?:          any content referencing genitals is ns/fw in my book. even before touching, if there is any physical arousal outside of jokes, i’d tag it. mentions are fine, but if it is in the action, that’s getting a tag.

WHO ARE OTHER MUSES YOU SHIP YOUR MUSE WITH?:          audrey sadly hasn’t had many partners so far! seymour and orin are the only ones with whom she’s had a romantic relationship. (my shipping with orin is ... complicated and never in the aim of having them fixed. no part of me thinks they ought to be together.) speaking in general terms, audrey prefers partners who are kind, and maybe a little meek, but also someone she can imagine casual, domestic life with. her ideal is not high romance and drama and passionate declarations of love, but comfortable, cozy companionship. she could also easily be shipped with lots of ‘bad boy’ or ‘broken’ types, as she’s naturally drawn to them and has a history of partners like that. she’s the girl who believes she can fix people, and will sacrifice her own happiness in unpleasant relationships if she thinks it meets that end.

DOES ONE HAVE TO ASK TO SHIP WITH YOU?:           yes, but HOLD ON NOW, don’t go running away! i don’t think i’ve had a partner yet on ANY of my blogs ask to ship and have me turn them down. i want you to ask so that we can talk about our characters, enjoy them together, and make sure we’re on the same page about what their relationship looks like. it’s not to judge and deem you worthy or not! so again, feel 100% free to shoot me a message about shipping!

HOW OFTEN DO YOU LIKE TO SHIP?:            literally all the time. again, because audrey’s ideas of romance aren’t all super saturated drama and tension, we can do casual, slice of life stuff day in and day out! (and then have our bouts of angst to satisfy my Dark Needs, of course.)

ARE YOU MULTISHIP?:          yes!

ARE YOU SHIP OBSESSED OR SHIP MORE-OR-LESS?:          the mun is more-or-less but audrey is ABOUT THAT LIFE. she is always down for shipping shenanigans.

WHAT IS YOUR FAVORITE SHIP IN YOUR CURRENT FANDOM?:            seymour/audrey!

FINALLY, HOW DOES ONE SHIP WITH YOU?:          just kick my door in send me an ask or IM saying something like “hello i’ve arrived for the Love” and i’ll say “nice B) welcome” and then you’re in, man.

TAGGED BY.          nobody i’m just #wild and stole it from @nightmcnsters so thanks my guy!

TAGGING.

         @bonhcmme, @daedaluscried, @flamesofesmeralda, @littlclctte, @scrivellc, @suddcnlyseymour, and anyone else who wants it! take it, be free.

#ooc;; #❦ DID YOU GET OUR TELEGRAM? [ psa ]