#you can dislike Dimitri as a character without using very real real life examples as fuel

[dimiclaudeblaigan]

Oh man I really agree with your tags on that one post. The whole king of delusion thing is terrible to me bc like. Delusions aren’t some gotcha you can use against him? It’s a serious mental health issue? But I’d also like to add I hate when people mock him for smelling bad or having poor hygiene or w/e… :/ It’s not funny when people with mental illness can’t properly take care of their hygiene lol I thought we were all understanding of this?

EXACTLY. It's not like "wow look how wrong you are and how terrible you are for being delusional".

Also the hygiene thing pisses me off too. I know lots of his fans use it as a joke, even affectionately, but like... he was homeless. He was living in the slums. Most people around him probably smelled bad. I'm sure they and he cleaned up whenever they could, but buddy, the slums isn't a public showering area. They'd be lucky if they were able to bathe. It's not something they take for granted. Even the "smelly cape" jokes bother me.

I've met homeless people. I've lived in a shelter where I met people who prior to that shelter lived in tents. Showering and bathing isn't something they could just get up and do before being in the shelter. Those people are lucky if they can even go to the bathroom in a proper bathroom, let alone being able to bathe.

Then like you said, on top of that, he's mentally ill. He's not thinking about his next bath. He's talking to people who are dead, believing they are answering him back and responding to their answers to him. There's also the general idea that Lambert's last words were not actually what were told to us via Dimitri's flashback, but the words he remembers because of his illness. He is very likely remembering wrong, because that version of Lambert matches the version of him that Dimtiri talks to, but does not match the version of him in Rodrigue's flashback.

Even depression can cause a lack of proper hygiene, and that's also a mental illness. In his case he has full on episodes of either psychotic breaks or having conversations with people who aren't there, and when he's out of those states he's desperately trying to do what he's been told to do by those voices. He's trying to do it both for those people and because, as he expresses later into AM, he wants them to stop. Those voices harass him day in and out and ridicule him and it hurts him, so he becomes desperate to do what they tell him so they stop tormenting him (which is part why he's so hellbent on hurrying to finish his tasks in the first half of AM).

It's an absolute spiral of a situation, where he already has these delusions but now on top of them feels absolutely terrible and like someone who has been emotionally abused by loved ones for years and years. He loves them but is terrified of them because they always say awful things to him or try to say things about him that aren't true. The worst part is that these are delusions of people who loved him and were nothing like this, so it causes even more suffering for him.

I don't really understand why it's so funny to people to poke fun at characters with or for bad hygiene. Like, firstly it's... just not a funny thing/topic? And secondly I'm sure there are people uncomfortable with it because they have bad hygiene or lower than "socially acceptable" hygiene due to mental illness and feel they're being laughed at as well for their hygiene. That's definitely a stereotypical mindset and something society does to make fun of people less fortunate than them, be it physically, mentally or both (like not having access to bathing.

Rich people can bathe whenever they want and often in media look down on "stinky people" who are always the poor, generally living in the slums). It's a very unfortunate dominant mindset and almost always comes from people who are more well off and haven't experienced it for themselves to realize how awful it can be (and there are of course people who don't need to experience something to know how bad it is, and I wish there were just more people like that).

I just don't understand what's so funny about hygiene. If anything it just feels like people laughing at the concept of someone not being up to society's standards about health, and it's what literal kids do to make fun of each other. Like, if someone smells bad, I feel like we should be more concerned about the person and why that is... and that would be the case if society raised its people to think that way, but since society raised people to be the opposite (to make fun of smelly people), most people who haven't experienced it for themselves make fun of it.

Like... idk am I missing something lol, I just don't see the humor in someone smelling bad. Even without considering any implications behind it I still don't see the humor in it. Considering Dimitri's circumstances though it just feels very wrong to see people make fun of him for that. I know fans of his that do it are doing it harmlessly and most likely wouldn't make fun of real people for similar things, but it just doesn't sit right with me. There's just nothing amusing about poor hygiene.

Using it as fuel to hate on him though is just is a show of someone's true character and who they really are. :/ Anyone who makes fun of him for his hygiene and mental illness are the kind of people who look down on people with those problems and deserve to experience it for themselves to see just how awful that shit can be. It being fictional doesn't change the fact that it's a show on someone's true character to be able to make fun of someone suffering, and especially to the extent Dimitri does.

Like yes, Edelgard suffered, but she has her own way of moving past it. She's not suffering in the same way as Dimitri or handling it the same way and comes across as "strong" for that - another societal mindset from people who think it's "strong" to not show that you're suffering or have suffered. It's how she handles it, sure, and that's fine... but it's people's reactions to how differently they handle their trauma that's so obnoxious.

People can only be pushed so far, and people hate on Dimtiri for his violence despite that being part of his illness and trauma. Hating on people for being violent as a result of their feelings or past is an awful thing and I really think anyone who can hate on a good and well meaning/intentioned person (real or fictional) simply because they're violent toward bad things needs some serious introspection (like Dimitri having violent reactions to seeing innocents being slaughtered in front of him at Remire. It was an impulsive reaction that he would've hid if he could have, but he wasn't able to).

Like oh no, how dare someone be violent and aggressive toward murderers! How dare someone say off with their head when they've done terrible things! Not everyone is perfectly peaceful and puritan. Hell, Edelgard isn't either and chooses violence as her first and foremost answer to everything, and only considers "negotiations" (i.e. anything that will benefit her/the Empire and only her) if she's losing and only stands to gain from them.

Her first solution to everything is violence, and yet Dimitri is the one who gets shat on for... being violent. Because of his trauma and illness specifically, both in game and out. But since Edelgard has been able to moved past her trauma for the most part and has a different way of handling it that "looks better", he looks "bad" for not having gotten past his trauma yet. Good for her to be able to handle it the way she does, but why is it "bad for him" that he can't handle it "better"?

#DCB Ask #skybluelion #using mental illness as a gotcha against someone isn't cool and doesn't make you cool #it makes you a terrible person and very disgusting. using it as an excuse and fuel to #shit on someone is disgusting. BLAMING people for what they say/do for their mental illness is disgusting #the whole ''it's your fault you're like this'' mentality is the most disgusting gross horrific thing #it doesn't matter what the illness is. it's not someone's fault that they have it #you can dislike Dimitri as a character without using very real real life examples as fuel #bc that shit just expresses exactly how you feel abt real ppl with those problems #it's just admitting it via a fictional setting to avoid the backlash you'd get if you said that shit to real people #I know most Edelgard stans use that shit as fuel just to hate on him bc they just don't like him opposing her #and so use any reach they can get to hate on him but to pick those factors specifically is very telling #ESPECIALLY coming from the character who plans to make a Fodlan where only strong-by-her-definition ppl #will actually thrive and the rest will just rot bc ''it's their own fault they're weak'' #same exact energy as ''it's their fault the mentally ill live like they do'' #like damn man you know many mentally ill ppl would LOVE to be mentally NOT ill and live and thrive and do great things??? #I can't speak for every Dimitri fan but as someone with mental illnesses and heavy fatigue and no real talented physical capabilities #a character like him is an example of and an inspiration for mentally ill ppl being able to actually be seen as normal #and to exist happily and to be able to get by in life and have chances like anyone else #I remember when the game came out how so many ppl applauded AM as a positive spin for the mentally ill #but that quieted down when the game wasn't new anymore and all that was left was the vocal discourse #unfortunately that resulted in us witnessing all the worst people showing their true colors

[agent-cupcake]

Can I ask your opinion? So, I feel like everyone into 3H is in love with Dimitri, but I can't connect with him. I don't dislike him, but I feel like there isn't much to his personality without all his various mental health issues. It's hard to get a feel on what he's really like, so I end up just seeing him as a walking ball of trauma and not a three-dimensional character. Do you have any thoughts on Dimitri himself and how to separate him as a person from his psychological issues? Thanks!

Hmm, I guess my first thought is that everyone resonates with characters differently and so if you don’t particularly feel connected to him, that’s not wrong. Fictional parasocial relationships are very similar to real-life relationships, so it follows that nobody is going to like every character. I can’t say that a portion of my love for his character doesn’t come from his mental issues because that’s something I personally relate to and feel drawn to in others. That’s just who I am and how I build relationships. There is also something to be said for the unavoidable way mental illness informs a person’s behavior and character, it’s as much an aspect of them as being born with blond hair or losing an eye.

That said, I will do my best to explain why I think Dimitri is wonderful. Not in spite of his mental illness, but because I don’t think that’s all he is.

So, Dimitri is, as he says, a very clumsy person. This unfortunately extends to his social skills. He has a lot of very socially awkward tendencies and a general lack of self-awareness. This contrasts with his innate desire to please people, or at least avoid upsetting anyone. The thing is, Dimitri doesn’t always completely understand what upsets people or how exactly they might feel. His childhood isolation left him rather emotionally unaware and desperate for the acceptance and approval of others. That’s not to say he doesn’t try to understand other people’s feelings, but it’s not an intuitive process. He has a habit of saying kind of dumb or uncomfortable things out of nowhere, which is most likely his real feelings coming out in rather inept ways. He means well, but he’s just so dang clumsy.

The desperation to be included and validated I mentioned, I think, can be seen in the way he tries so hard to make the other Blue Lions see him as a peer and equal all the while keeping himself rather closed off from them. Dimitri approaches conversations as a means of focusing on the other person, trying to make an appeal to them rather than as an interaction where both parties could be seen as vulnerable. Of course, just like most other socially awkward introverts, he opens up when he feels closer to the person, but that takes a while. Gotta unlock the supports, you know? Although it’s not necessarily obvious, his incredibly stiff behavior (especially pre-timeskip) and the way he switches between overly formal and awkwardly friendly in his interactions with people as he tries to figure out how to socially and emotionally navigate relationships really gives me the impression of someone trying desperately to fit in without even the faintest clue of how to actually manage that. He also does his best to avoid social situations, which, mood. Basically, Dimitri’s a big dumb massive introvert trying to act like he’s not.

FURTHERMORE, he is a dork. An absolute goof of a person. Dimitri canonically thinks so-bad-its-good puns and jokes are hilarious. His own style of telling jokes is saying things that may or may not have contextual humor in a normal voice and then claiming after the fact that he intended it as such. Now, his supports with Alois are absolute factual proof of the so-bad-its-good humor, but might I also direct your attention to the scene before the battle against Miklan in Conand Tower (the event name is “Tower in a Storm (Blue Lions)”). Basically, Gilbert is explaining the history behind Conand Tower and Dimitri says, in an incredibly earnest voice, “You’re very well informed, Gilbert. Please, tell us more.” This is a joke. Supposed to be, at least. The delivery is somewhat emphasized, but not in a recognizably sarcastic way. Gilbert, who knew Dimitri very well when he was young, realizes it’s a joke after a second. But there are other things Dimitri says that I believe are his bad “jokes” and since nobody knows him well enough to tell, they don’t call him on it. There’s no proof, but his line in the Lord’s intro where he says, “And here I thought you were acting as a decoy for the sake of us all.” to Claude has to be an attempt at sarcasm. Dimitri is oblivious, but not stupid. In his Goddess Tower conversation with Byleth, when discussing the topic of wishes, he says, “Perhaps it would make more sense for me to wish that we’ll be together forever. What do you think?” In a completely normal voice. Following are two speech bubbles of “...” before he laughs and proclaims that it’s just a joke and that he’s getting better at telling them. Now, this is a two-parter because I see this as both his horribly awkward tendency to say things he feels without thinking too hard beforehand as well as his silly deadpan style of “jokes”. Granted, he does apologize. Dimitri’s got socially awkward zoomer humor. It’s endearing.

Here is a video of Dimitri hitting on Byleth pre-timeskip. I’m not sure how far it goes to endear someone to him, but the mostly awkward and occasionally smooth attempts of Dimitri’s flirtations are absolutely a highlight of his character. 

Now, this isn’t quite as cute as all that, but I think character arc and change do a lot for making a character feel more three-dimensional. Dimitri is hypocritically selfish. Although those are both negative terms, I don’t necessarily mean them as such, at least not in their totality. Both are things to overcome, which he does. And that’s why I feel like they’re a valid point of discussion when trying to explain the allure of his character.

The hypocritical part comes from the way he easily allows and forgives the flaws of others while constantly castigating himself for the same reasons. He says things that show an absurd amount of a lack of self-awareness. For example, he tells Edelgard, “Hm. You will prove a lacking ruler yourself if you look for deceit behind every word and fail to trust those whom you rely on.” All the while straight-up lying to and emotionally avoiding his friends. Dimitri also tells Marianne, when she is punishing herself for putting other people at risk, “What matters is that they came back safely in the end. You shouldn’t blame yourself for that.” Really, his C and B with Marianne is an exercise in hypocrisy. The standards Dimitri has for himself are incredibly, unattainably high. He’s setting himself up for failure in that way and, to an extent, knows what he’s doing because he knows that those same standards are too much for his friends and allies to meet. He wishes to take on everything himself. But, what I find so beautiful about this, is that Dimitri eventually realizes that he can’t do that. He is not strong enough to take on the weight of the world on himself, he comes to understand that it’s something he must allow himself to share with the people who care about him. He comes to realize that, as difficult as it is to accept, he is a weak person. Despite all of his introversion and inability to emotionally open up, he figures out that having a support system and allowing yourself to rely on people who love you is a necessity. Personally, I think this message is incredibly important in real life. Watching Dimitri come to that conclusion and argue it’s importance really rounded out his arc and journey as a person. Now, the relatability of this conclusion will differ, but I don’t think it has to do with his mental illness as much as it is a fundamental aspect of growth.

The selfishness is basically outlined above. Dimitri is selfish about his pain and secrets, purposefully and selfishly driving people away because he wants to keep the burden to himself. His vice is guilt and he indulges in the pain of it like an addiction. Hatred, too, is a drug. He thinks he needs it to keep going, even though all it does is bring agony to himself and others around him. Learning to accept and let go of these feelings is, again, something I think is important and a character arc that I really love, especially when you see him suffer as much as he does. Now, the execution of this is lacking, I admit. But that’s an issue for another time I think.

I am not quite sure if I did much to change your opinion, but this is all I can think of for now. There is probably a lot more than I’ve left out because I think about Dimitri far too much to be healthy. So, I’ll leave you off with some honorable mention aspects of his character that I think are super fun:

Pre-timeskip Dimitri has his hair tucked behind his ear. He can lift a wagon by himself. In the DLC, when faced with an impossible-to-open gate, it was not muscle man Balthus who said he couldn’t open it, but twinkish teen Dimitri. He’s not really smooth with one-liners. Like, at all. Notably, when attacking Manuela post-timeskip, he says, “Perhaps I should have appeared before you holding a bouquet of flowers, rather than the weapon that will end your life.” Adding to this, at one point, Dimitri fucked up a pick-up line so badly the girl came after him. Areadbhar has a mitten on it in the Azure Moon final picture. He breaks everything. His Crest activation ability even supports this, using twice the durability of any given Combat Art. One of his post-timeskip counselor messages is, “I lived in the slums for a long time, and I saw how the people there suffered from poverty and the ravages of war. There must be something I can do to save them." His room in the academy is right next to Sylvain’s, meaning that for almost an entire year Dimitri was a single wall away from hearing whatever nonsense Sylvain was getting up to. Dimitri is the only Lord that takes the throne and doesn’t abandon his people in some form or another.

And, finally, he is pretty sexy. And that’s all that really matters, isn’t it?

#dimitri alexandre blaiddyd #fe dimitri #dimitri #fire emblem three houses #FE3H #Anonymous

[lananiscorner]

Anon said “you know what would be more stupider than dark knight Lin? Dancer dedue let’s go”

Also for the fe questions, 1,6 and 9 :3!

Thanks for your ask, Anon! I am going to tuck question 6 beneath a read more line, since I know at least one of my followers hasn't played the DLC yet.

1 - Favourite house, and why?

The Blue Lions. Oh my gods, the Blue Lions:

- There is not a single character in this house that I actively dislike.

- As a matter of fact, Dimitri is my favorite ever. Dedue, Felix and Mercedes are also among my favorites, even if Felix is Problematic™ in many ways. As a matter of fact, he's the perfect example of a character I love as a character, even though I probably could not stand him in real life. Annette and Ingrid are both very relatable to me (I was Annette when I was in school and I can relate to Ingrid in many ways now). Ashe and Sylvain are also good. Gilbert grew on me after a while.

- Azure Moon feels like the only route where there is actually a war going on. You know. With actual consequences.

- AM has the most emotionally gripping story.

- I live for traumatized found families in fiction.

- In between Falcon Knight Ingrid, Swordmaster Felix and Dimitri’s battalion shenanigans, this house is pretty unstoppable.

- House of DILFs (On this blog we stan Lambert and Rodrige. And Lambert & Rodrigue. And Lambert/Rodrigue.)

- Queer subtext house.

9 - Favourite route (gameplay wise) and why?

Can I say White Clouds or Cindered Shadows? Because White Clouds had the most interesting maps, imo, and Cindered Shadows had interesting maps + an amazing final boss + interesting restrictions on classes/gear.

No? Okay, um… Verdant Wind. Hunting by Daybreak is one of my favorite “oh damn” moments in this game, Aillel is a hot mess (pun intended), Gronder 2.0 is great (although it should have been a fog map, imo, infuriating as it would have been), Fort Merceus had so many moving pieces to keep track of, Enbarr/Imperial Palace are great for Stride/Warp shenanigans while still letting me use my favorite movement type (cavalry) without getting hindered by bushes or sand every step, Shambala is very unique (and potentially very painful if you don’t know in advance that Thales has Quake and you need to kill him before he gets a hit in), Nemesis and his 10 Elites hit hard. This is the only swamp draining I stan. (Caveat here: I have not yet played Silver Snow’s final map, although I’ve read up on what awaits me).

Also, a word on paralogues, even though most of them are not route exclusive: Claude has the most infuriating but also most fun paralogue of all the lords, what with all the enemies scattered across the DESERT. Leonie & Linhardt's is hilarious--like, Leonie is there just straight up "thanks bro"ing a dragon-shifter saint and I like the mechanics of the paralogue acknowleding that taking Edelgard to fight a dragon is not a great idea. Marianne's is just all around amazing, yes, I actually like the fog, so what? Raphael & Ignatz + Lorenz's tie nicely into one another and you get a busted relic + a lot of goodies from the merchants.

6 - Favourite Ashen Wolves student, and why?

Constance. I have dealt with a lot of alpha bitches in my life and not in good ways, usually, so for this game to make me love an alpha bitch is quite an achievement. Constance is arrogant, over the top and full of herself, but she still cares about the people around her, and no matter how rough things get for her, she just does not give up. She misses Yuri’s sarcasm, so she invents a spell that turns boots into licorice to make boot-licking less awful. She invents her own spells, which is something no-one else in this story does!--but they all come with a catch/are kind of useless. She has a hidden talent in brawling and goes off on people who demean her commoner friend Hapi. She is similar to Lorenz, but more likeable and interesting, imo. Then there’s her sunny side, which is a fountain of both hilarity and tragedy. She makes a great Dark Flier or Gremory and Bolting + Rescue is just so goddamn useful. I love Constance, okay?

#Fire Emblem: Three Houses #FE3H #asks #anon #FE3H ask meme #favorite FE3H house #favorite FE3H route #Blue Lions #Verdant Wind #favorite Ashen Wolves student #Constance von Nuvelle

[mbtiofwhys]

Why your favorite anime protagonist is ESFP

Premise

Anime and manga offer a variety of stories, archetypes, and characters, and they aren’t just the sum of some stereotypes and clichés. However, we also like to analyze this topic to see if there may be MBTI-related elements to discuss.

So, our purpose is to dissect the typical anime and manga protagonist, which often is, especially in shonen works, an ESFP. Thus, we’ll use MBTI as a tool to see how common archetypes or clichés are tied to the ESFP personality or, at least, the stereotyped ESFP. We always say that cognition must be separated from behaviors, so we’re aware of the risk involved in an article like this. This is why, on a final note, we want to reaffirm how not all ESFPs (especially in real life) are impulsive, reckless, or excessively idealistic. At the same time, we find it intriguing to see correlations between a particular personality type and common tropes related to anime and manga.

The role of protagonists

As we said above, anime protagonists usually share common traits that can be summarized in the xSFP MBTI types, especially the ESFP one. It’s interesting to notice how those elements are usually found in shonen works since they target a young audience. Why are those protagonists often represented by the ESFP type? And why does this happen mostly in battle shonen?

These characters tend to be quite simple (with some exceptions we’ll address later), and this isn’t a bad thing since this way, it’s often easy to sympathize with them, their cause, and their ideals. They’re the protagonists of stories aimed at younger people, so it’s crucial for them to be understandable (remember: shonen is a target, not a genre.) They usually fall in the ‘kind-hearted’ and ‘overly idealistic’ tropes, they easily befriend people and gain lots of allies gathered in a group, a crew, a school class, or something on those lines. This is often caused by the protagonist’s will to protect the weak. At the same time, the typical shonen protagonist possesses a strong desire to win and, when he loses a competition (usually against their rival) they’ll train to become stronger, overcoming their weaknesses and thus growing more mature and conscious.

Cognitive functions and protagonists

Going deeper, we can see how ESFP’s cognitive functions work together following common shonen tropes.

As a Se dom, an ESFP protagonist usually shows proactiveness and impulsivity. Those traits lead to situations where they must train not only to improve their abilities but also as a way to improve their self-control, thus becoming more cautious.

ESFP is a perfect personality type for the main character since it allows them to take risks, make mistakes, and learn by them. Also, stories revolve around conflict and need lots of unexpected events to progress and create anticipation and curiosity in the audience. Therefore, a Se dom protagonist that is prone to action and to recklessly challenge themself is a simple and functional way to tell a story.

Fi aux usually implies strong ideals to follow, so it’s easier to sympathize with those characters (if those ideals are positive and not excessively ordinary or dull). This isn’t a rule, yet at the same time, it isn’t difficult to understand why a strong-willed protagonist often catches the audience’s attention, thus creating an emotional connection.

Being a P usually implies a more adaptable approach to problems than the one used by Js. Since shonen works are often dynamic and fast-paced, a character who takes action by blindly following his heart allows the story to progress quickly and offers great opportunities for conflict and growth.

The root of the phenomenon   

It probably all stems from Dragon Ball and Goku. Toriyama’s work shows exactly what is now considered the basis of every battle shonen: a young, impulsive, idealistic protagonist with strong power, but lacking the maturity/ability to use/control it properly. This knowledge is then gained through training and trials such as tournaments or exams. In addition, there are friends to protect, a rival, and enemies becoming stronger and stronger. 

So, DB may be truly considered the root of modern anime and manga shonen. Lots of tropes are now tied to it: sometimes there’s a school or an academy where characters study, train, and also mature as people. The protagonist may also have a tragic past, have lost their memory, or be the chosen one (but they aren’t usually aware of it, at least at first). What it is tied to Goku as a character archetype may also be seen in Rufy, Naruto, Ichigo, Natsu, and many others - we cannot mention them all, but you’ve probably understood what type of characters we are referring to.

Exceptions

Exceptions of course exist, like Gon from HunterxHunter. In this case, he’s only presented as a positive character at first but reveals a way darker side of his personality later on. Gon is an example of what may seem a perfect and always upright boy, the classic protagonist that enjoys challenges because they’re fun and cares deeply for his friends and family. However, there’s definitely more depth in him. Without going too far into spoiler territory, it’s enough to say that at a certain point he deviates from the standard shonen protagonist path, and acts in a more selfish, arguable way, and becomes a pretty negative character if one separates him from his role in the work.

Antagonists

By now, it should be clear how ESFP cognitive stack may lead to behaviors tied to common anime and manga tropes. The opposite is also often true for antagonists in these works:

Antagonists tend to be I rather than E, they’re more withdrawn and often dislike the world as it is and live best on their own. When they’re E, they are usually Te or Fe dom with an evil plan that aims at gaining absolute power or reforming society as a whole;

They tend to be N rather than S, and, seeing the big picture, they’re more prone to follow abstract goals and patterns;

They tend to be J rather than P. Antagonists are often planners with a step-by-step project and a long-term vision of how things should be. In case they’re P, they may have Ne rather than Se, always being ahead of their opponents and open to new hypotheses and countermeasures.

What about ISFPs?

ISFP-types often represent a ‘side cluster’ of tropes, with a focus on shadier, less upright characters who may pursue revenge as their main goal. ISFPs have the proactiveness of high Se users but, as Fi doms, they possess an even stronger sense of self. So, it’s interesting to notice how ESFPs are usually positive characters, while ISFPs may be presented as antagonists, or protagonists bearing a burden or being flawed/vengeful. We typed Lio from Promare on our blog, but other examples may be found in Dimitri from Fire Emblem Three Houses or Simon from Gurren Lagann, who is commonly typed as ISFP and starts his journey as very closed, scared and following others’ lead, and becomes a more positive and proactive character later on.

Sources

For further reading, we invite you to read those articles and guides:

https://mbti-notes.tumblr.com/spotting#fiction

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShonenDemographic?from=Main.Shonen

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StockShonenHero

#mbtiofwhys #mbti #personalitytypes #typology #stereotypes #clichés #narrative characters #esfp #isfp #anime #manga #shonen

[kendrixtermina]

You seem like pretty knowable about Edelgard lore and motivation, so I've been meaning to ask. What exactly was the catalyst that made Edelgard hate the Church of Seiros so much? I know they've done a ton of shitty stuff in general, but what made Edelgard dislike them personally? I looked on the wiki and it either wasn't on there yet or I just didn't understand it. (I want to be able to eventually explain it to my sister who so far thinks Edelgard is evil, she hasn't finished the AM route yet).

IDK if this is something one can be “knowledgeable” about I just played the same game everyone else did, I’m no authority I just like analyzing fictional works for fun.

And whoever added that recent lengthy edit to the wiki article… let’s just say their opinions are discernible.  But they might say the same about me. 

Good vs Sympathetic

First there are some interesting premises hidden in this question - why would a personal motivation be more convincing that a net negative impact on the world at large? It’s the latter a much better reason? 

Like there’s a big difference between saying “they had legit reasons for their feelings/actions” (you could say this even about rhea) and saying that someone’s a force for good. Being understandable and consistent isn’t goodness; IT’s just good writing, and “they can’t help it, of course they acted like this, look at what happened to them” is more an argument for someone being sympathetic/understandable than good. Murder or manslaughter? How much can we blame them for their bad deeds. 

You might have very good personal reasons to hate someone or something, and pursuing that hate at the expense of others could still be a very selfish thing. There are your feelings, and then there’s how you act on them. There are many ways to act on the same feeling. 

Conversely, it is possible to be repulsed by evil or mismanagement just because of its own wrongness/stupidity. If you read about how some evil deed happened to total strangers in a foreign country, you would still be angry and you might even vote, sign petitions or attent protests so it doesn’t keep happening. 

If the Church of Seiros is doing objectively bad stuff, is that not enough to oppose it? Not only does Seiros/Rhea rule everything from the shadows, she’s accountable to no one, and she’s doing a bad job at it. TWSITD are her enemies too but they’re running rampant under her nose and in the recent past, deposed the Emperor and assasinated the king of faerghus to install their own agents.

Rhea may not have intended to let xenophobia, inequality, corruption, obsession with crests and instability to fester but that’s still what happened - and people can’t file complaints because she’s ruling in secret and anyone who complaints in branded a heretic. Almost everyone in the cast has been affected by those issues - the “peace” at the start of the story is illusory. Also, this whole shadow war between Seiros and Agartha is being carried out on the backs of the ordinary people who have no say in anything. At least if you know who the king/lord is you know who to rebel against if there’s no bread.

It’s no good. And as the heir to the largest territory, Edelgard is one of the few people who have a chance to stop it. It’s not easy for her either, given that the empire is thoroughly infiltrated by TWSID agents who would never have let her butt touch the throne if she didn’t play ball, or at least not without a bloody fight that might well end with the empire in splinter factions, aafter all, her father had already been reduced to a puppet ruler (see what happens to Dimitri when he returns to faerghus - Arundel is said to mantain his own personal army)

And since it was one of her ancestors who sold out Fodlan to seiros for power, she might feel that it’s her responsibility to put it right.

The real power isn’t with the people or even the nobles and the rulers of the three factions - it’s with Rhea and TWSITD. They keep burning up people without end for their own causes that have nothing to do with the people themselves, they both see humans as “beasts”… Shouldn’t that be stopped? 

To stop evil is a much better motivation than petty personal grudges.

Edelgard’s thinking

The first thing to understand with Edelgard is that she’s a big picture thinker through and through. For better or for worse she looks at and decides everything based on how it will look in a history book a few centuries down the line. (For prime examples of evidence look at the Dorothea support or some of her lines after fighting Dimitri)

This isn’t to say that she doesn’t have bias or personal influences like everyone else, but she values and strives for objectivity. That means questioning herself alot (something you wouldn’t see that much on routes other than her own as she keeps the tough leader face on in public), it means putting what yields the best results over what she wants or likes, and it means looking at the greater whole. 

She doesn’t just want to get revenge on the specific people who wronged her; She wants to ensue that it never happens to anyone else. She wants to undo the whole situation that allowed for it to happen - even if that means postponing her own revenge and working with those she hates the most. This is very much her putting efficiency and the end result above her own feelings. 

It may well have been Thales and his henchmen who cut her open, but they couldn’t have done it without the cooperation of the corrupt imperial nobles. (likewise, they worked with xenophobic kingdom nobles who didn’t like Dimitri’s dad making peace with the foreigners to orchestrate the Duscur nonsense)

Why were they in power? How were they convinced to allow for such a thing and give Thales the ressources he wanted/needed? Because of the social system that Seiros set up so that crests are equated with power.  

There will always be assholes and evil people, but how much damage they cause depends on wether the system they operate in lets them get away with it.

Also, even when you look just at TWSITD’s involvement, Edelgard’s siblings were butchered to make her a mighty tool for the shadow conflict. Just as Rhea in turn did her own experiments to revive sothis and “regain all that she lost”

So even on the most direct level, what happened was a result of the shadow conflict. 

And it is instrumental to keep in mind that Edelgard wants to remove both shadow factions. 

Her beef’s strictly with them - she knew that the Kingdom and Alliance would probably fight her if she went against the church and was fully prepared to pay that price, but that’s a side effect of going where the enemy is - she handed out letters and pamphlets informing ppl of the church’s evils and asking them to choose sides. 

TWSITD have fearsome power and have infiltrated the empire, but they’re few. The Church got its claws in most local governments. Why not throw the power of the former at the latter, to take down the stronger enemy, and then take out the Agarthans when your power’s consolidated? It’s a decision not about whom to fight, but about whom to fight first. 

Also because of her big-picture thinking she looks at the absolute numbers. In her own words, she’s going for the path of least casualties. 

PPl tend to judge harm caused by action stronger than harm caused by inaction but actually the harm is the same. Acting to remove the two shadow factions will have a cost (the war) but not acting also has a cost - that the dysfuction goes on and on forever. 

She doesn’t particularly want power if it were up to her she’d have chosen a normal ordinary life and she says so on many occasions. But she can stop it, stop the endless sacrifice and dysfunction, so she can’t just let it continue and do nothing. 

Of course with that sorta logic you always have to consider how each action impacts the end result so you don’t destroy all you want to protect because you tell yourself that it will pay off later, after all ‘the many’ are just an abstraction for a lot of individuals. But Edelgard’s not really losing sight of that, she keeps looking to minimize the casualties where she can, she offers people a chance to surrender, you get some lecture questions where she’s genuinely considering what do with rhea if she DOES surrender. 

It’s worth noting that on her route, the war ends the quickest and only the Kingdom lands get significantly wrecked (and the Kingdom always gets wrecked even if it gets rebuild afterwards, it was already in a lot of chaos before the war even started). You have to fight the peeps you don’t recruit but that’s no different in the other routes. Claude manages to seize control of the Church without going through the knights so he manages to pull off an at least equivalent end result (both shadow factions removed, society permanently changed) while offing fewer of the named characters, and lets not fail to give him credit for that,  but he might not have, if Edelgard hadn’t conveniently removed Rhea and just generally blazed a convenient trail for him to, in his own words, “finish the job for her”. Taking in the church with Rhea still in place didn’t work out too well for poor Dimitri, I seem to recall that she used the poor man as a meatshield and set his capital on fire - which is why Claude wisely didn’t touch that hot potato in any route where he doesn’t have Byleth as a bargaining chip. 

Of course that said, going too hard on the comparison would seem to miss the point. While Claude’s and Edelgard’s routes are about their respective grand visions for the future and their badassery as great inspiring leaders, the Church and Kingdom routes are more about people coming together to weather difficult circumstances. Dimitri isn’t really cut out to be a good ruler; but the beauty of his story is how he eventually does his best to become one anyways through the aid of his loyal friends. It’s an underdog story. 

If your sister prefers that sort of story (or just Dimitri himself, as a more emotional, relatable type of hero and a well-crafted, compelling and memorable character) that’s just her personal taste/ good right. 

Edelgard’s personal biases

She surely has a bit of “broken pedestal syndrome” going on, the very human tendency to absolutely reject things you once idealized once they’re proven to be flawed, to assume that if you were lied to often enough, then everything must be a lie… she sure reads what she learns of Seiros’ past actions in a bad light and assumed that Seteth & the others are guiltier/ more complicit than they actually are. 

The problem with Rhea is that she’s selfish, not that she’s a dragon. But if she were the only example you know for what a dragon is like? You might not be too fond of dragons. It’s not like she protests if Byleth spares Flayn and Seteth. 

She doesn’t really know Rhea’s motivation so she has to judge her by her actions and the results of those, and her actions, for all that they come from fear and loneliness, are indistinguishable from power lust by the time that Rhea’s subjugated 30 generations of humans for something their remote ancestors did 1000 years ago. Would she ever have let them go? 

So it doesn’t matter that she only got the partial story on the relics, it’s not the relics she took issue with, but the current state of the world. also Rhea is the one who erased the true records. So the 10 elites totally had it comming, fine - but Rhea’s the one who disseminated the myth that they were heroes in the first place. 

Claude only gets the truth by squeezing it out of Rhea and even then only at the very end, ppl who say that Edelgard “acted on false information” act like Claude just stumbled across the truth with minimal effort. That’s actually more unfair to Claude than to Edelgard if you ask me.... he’s a man who has gathering info as his top priority 24/7

Edelgard’s certainly more steeped in the perspective of her home country where the church is awarded significance and if it turns out to not be good then it’s utterly vile.  Claude has the sort of more detached perspective that he has because he happened to come from another country. Edelgard’s aiming for detachment but that’s only possible to a certain extent when something ruined the lives of nearly everyone you know

At the same time whatever her personal sentiments may be (and im not gonna deny that she does hate the Seiros religion), as far as her actions and decisions go, the engage conversation she has when you have her fight Rhea at the battle:

Rhea:

No matter your reasons, I cannot permit you to go on living any longer!

Edelgard:

The feeling is mutual. I must put a stop to your reign of tyranny!

Rhea:

You must know what a fool you are. The greatest of sins is to make an enemy of the goddess herself!

Edelgard:

I have only made an enemy of the church, not of the faith.

She says in several supports that she personally considers relying on the goddess to be an overly dependent attitude that doesn’t do people good, but that’s just her opinion, she’s not stopping anyone from praying in the privacy of their homes cause thats none of her business and she’s not a tyrant (see what happens if you recruit Marianne or Mercedes, her support with Manuela or the Marianne/Ferdinand support on the CF route, which reveals that he’s actually a believer.)

She just wants the Church, and Rhea specifically, out of politics… exactly what we have in any modern-day country that isn’t Saudi Arabia or the Vatican. 

Megalomania seems the most likely or politically expedient thing to claim but in the end her beef’s not with Rhea’s reasons but the results of her actions which is stagnation, mismanagement and repression. 

Your Actual Question/ Personal Reasons and Catalysts

Honestly? If we’re talking on a strictly emotional/personal level? (As much as that’s an incomplete picture with such a reason-driven character)

She probably bawled for the goddess to save her and her family down in the dungeons, again and again, and no one answered. 

She spent much of her early life just being dragged around, first being kidnapped by Arundel and held captive in the kingdom, then she was thrown in a filthy dungeon where she endured relentless pain and could do nothing but watch as her siblings died one by one. 

She was utterly helpless, a passive plaything of destiny - and then she decided she was done being passive and letting the universe kick her around. She was going to be proactive and do all she could to be in control of her own fate. 

See also the inspiring speeches that she gives to Petra and Lysithea at various points - “Don’t surrender yourself to your fate!” 

Blind reliance on the faith, to her, represents that very surrender, so she rejects it. 

This fear and rejection of being helpless and having zero control is also one of the reasons why she consistently chooses death on her own terms over life on someone elses’. 

That would still not be a valid justification if she wanted to, like, stop everyone from praying, but that’s not what she’s doing. 

#fire emblem: three houses #fire emblem three houses #edelgard von hresvelg