#the hardest one to convince me on though would have to be the nnd/ozlem parallels

[aknolan]

I think part of the discourse here really stems more from what kind of interpretation of RWBY's story you take away from the whole thing.

Your viewpoint is predicated on the idea that RWBY must completely prove the gods wrong, or it would be a disservice to the story's themes.

To me, however, a large part of the story is kind of a complicated mix, in that the villains and antagonists are PARTIALLY correct, but the issue is how they twist a kernel of truth into a means of abuse and control over domains that they don't really have any right to claim control over.

The Gods ARE correct that Life and Death shouldn't be treated carelessly, but they are consistently shown to be hypocrites who use it as a means to enforce their power over others.

Adam and Sienna WERE correct about the state of Faunus, but the former twisted the cause into satiating his own bloodlust and petty egotism.

Ironwood WAS correct that Salem needed to be known as a villain publicly in order to better combat her, but he refused to acknowledge that he wasn't that important and was twisted by Atlas' pro-conformity and fascistic culture into believing that he knew what was best for the world, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Jacques WAS correct that Ironwood was becoming as much of a danger to his country, but that was fueled out of self-serving greed and his own gain.

The recurring point that RWBY tends to follow is that the Villains are not people without a point, but that they use the point as a means to enforce unjust control and power over others.

But it doesn't make them completely wrong.

And the honest reality is; I think Penny not coming back is not inherently an incorrect or thematically wrong way of doing things, because ultimately she already PROVED that the Gods are full of shit.

She came back to life TWICE despite being killed.

The Gods have already been proven WRONG.

Her final death is just proof of something else; that even when you do everything right, even when you do manage to defy the expectations and possibilities laid out before you, bad shit can still happen anyways. It's literally what happened with Ozma dying from illness after he and Salem got together.

What happened to her last life was not the result of the story going against it's themes; it was just simply the result of poor choices on Penny's part and plain bad luck. That's it.

And Choices are just as much of a theme in the story, and poor choices or lack of choices are too.

The key is not in proving the Gods completely wrong, but in wresting control away from them so that THEY can't be the ones to dictate terms. They are NOT the arbiters of everything despite what the God of Light believes.

But that doesn't mean life and death will cease to matter. It'll still exist as the tragedy in someone's life.

I don't really disagree with you on like, 95% of this honestly.

I think it's helpful to recognize though, the wider context of the argument. In the simplest form, the fact that I am in that post responding to someone making the claim that Salem was at fault for what happened with the gods. So yeah, my argument there is about how she wasn't wrong for trying to get Ozma back, and Ruby wouldn't be wrong either for trying to get Penny back.

And yeah, life and death shouldn't be treated carelessly, but that's why it's important that this happens in Fairytale Bullshit Land, where Penny's Magic Aura Bullshit Body may have landed. These are very unique circumstances! This isn't gonna end up being a repeatable situation. They are incapable of treating life and death carelessly, and I'm sure that if they manage to bring Penny back with them, there will be a cost.

And the point of the gods has not been refuted yet. Not on screen.

Penny's revival happened off screen, and on the technicality that she wasn't actually dead. She was still on Remnant. Her core was intact, and that's why she could come back. Had she been completely destroyed, she would have been truly very dead.

And the situation with Ambrosius? She wasn't dead.

I consider this cheating death, rather than really being a proper "brought back from dying". Even disregarding that though... it's our protagonists who need to refute the villains.

Pietro revived Penny, team rwby cheated with the staff of creation. But Ruby making the active choice to bring Penny back would be a very clear message that she understands Salem. No moral high ground to keep there, on Salem's original problem with the gods. And when you have an unkillable enemy, that is desperately needed.

I also don't think Penny needs to die to drive home the message you put in bold. Plenty of things went wrong already, like losing both of the relics, and the "one way trip to Vacuo".

Lastly though, as long as the comparison between ruby/penny and salem/ozma exists, the elephant in the room remains as well.

If the comparison holds up... it's reasonable to interpret Ruby and Penny as romantically in love with each other, and then we get back to the writers wanting to avoid playing into the bury your gays trope.

Really though, a lot of what you say about complicated mixes of right and wrong are things I agree with. I also can absolutely see the sort of themes someone could go for with permadead Penny. But I take issue with it on several grounds, including that it feels a lot like fridging (except that the protagonist is also a woman this time, adding some bury your gays flavour). And, you know, I just like Penny and would like to think better of the writers than the fuck-up for her story that is the last three episodes of v8.

And that's just talking about the thematic stuff, not even the allusions or the things that don't add up.

#penny polendina #rwby #rwby spoilers #anon #ask #I gotta emphasize here though. you really do have good points! #and you're absolutely right that the difference in opinion is a matter of what kind of story you expect rwby to be #if penny's death is a satisfying story to you then more power to you #I can assure you though I am not easily swayed from my belief that she is returning #because there are many more reasons I believe this than what I have mentioned #and it'll take a lot of discussion to get through all those #the hardest one to convince me on though would have to be the nnd/ozlem parallels #and what that implies about the queerness of the situation and in turn the bury your gays #close second is that the maiden transfer had jaune's colours #which is really damn weird for a show where colour matters so much