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itsclydebitches · 4 years

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I will personally never understand why the "bird conversation" happened. Qrow basically shut it down, by (I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure he did) saying they agreed to taking the ability. It feels like we're being told to take Raven at face value, despite other, more trustworthy charecters speaking to the contrary.

He did. Basic rundown of the conversation: Yang enters it pissed off, they learn all the revelations that the rest of the group got a few episodes back, Ozpin asks if this was “more or less what your mother told you,” Yang straight up ignores him and Weiss has to answer for her with, “for the most part.” This finally makes Yang angry enough to respond with “You forgot to tell everyone what you did to Qrow and my mother,” there are gasps and horrified looks from the group, but we get a shot of Qrow smiling and going “oh great”---he knows this secret isn’t a big deal but that convincing the others of that won’t be easy.

Ozpin explains about the power while Yang pouts on the couch. Nora angrily accuses Ozpin of “messing with us” (even though you all took way stranger things at face value... like reincarnation...), Jaune crosses his arm and adds “What else is new?” Despite these explanations with no downsides mentioned, Yang is still furious: “Why would you do something like that? I mean, what is wrong with you?”

She gets antagonistic enough that Qrow shuts her down and then explicitly states, “We made a choice. We wanted this.”

Ozpin then looks to Qrow and asks permission---“May I?”---in order to explain further, detailing that he needed allies to search for Maidens and keep an eye on Salem’s movements. The question heavily implies what should already be obvious: this was Qrow’s secret to keep and tell. Why is everyone gunning for Ozpin when Qrow, the person with the actual ability, likewise made the choice to keep that from his family? These explanations segue into the reveal that Ozpin created the first four Maidens and he ends his speech by admitting that “it was never my intention to lie to you.” He and Qrow share a knowing look as he admits that he “plays things close to the chest” which honestly, to me, reads as two war-worn adults acknowledging that this shit is complicated. You keep secrets, you tell lies, you do what you need to in order to survive and keep others safe. Look at these youngsters who think that non-stop honesty is always the way to go. Or is in any way easy even when it should be done:

Yang still looks pissed as hell despite thoroughly being proven wrong

and then makes her announcement that she’ll stay if Ruby stays, but no more secrets or half-truths. Ozpin agrees with “Understood.”

Which, obviously, the fandom has used as the go-to moment to damn Ozpin. You promised not to lie and then you did! Which yeah, that isn’t great. He should have been honest here in his inability to promise such a thing. However, that’s not the only factor in all this. We also have the fact that “no more lies or half truths” does not equal “tell us every single detail about this war right now that includes your very personal and traumatic history.” We have the issue that Yang and many of the others (notably Jaune) were unwilling to judge Ozpin fairly from the get-go. They decided that he was guilty before the trail even began and, when faced with evidence that proved all their assumptions wrong, decided to ignore it rather than admitting they were wrong. You’re going to trust a group like that with world-altering secrets? And we finally have the issue that Yang herself clearly doesn’t believe in her own ultimatums. Or doesn’t think they should apply to her. Keeping Raven’s Maiden power a secret? Turning on Ironwood to spill the beans to Robyn and letting her escape? I don’t put must stock in a character’s outraged, “You kept secrets and lied?” when they’re keeping secrets and lying too. The group’s inability to make the jump from “Wow. Sometimes we do need to keep information close to the chest” to “Oh. I guess it makes sense then that Ozpin would do the same thing” is one of the things that still characterizes them as naive, hypocritical, and downright dangerous given the stakes.

From a fandom perspective though, I’m not at all surprised that a completely unambiguous admission from Qrow---“We made a choice. We wanted this”---holds no weight. 1. Because he’s another adult that can’t be trusted (see: the group turning on him with their weapons in the snow) and 2. Because the concept of a “choice” apparently disappears whenever Ozpin is thrown into the mix. This is the same thing we’ve seen regarding Pyrrha, the claim that she couldn’t really make a choice. It was never a choice at all. She was manipulated/pressured/steered into being a Maiden so the choice is only a “choice.” Ozpin is still at fault. Now here’s Qrow, saying he made a choice, and fans tend to talk over that with, “No. You only thought you had a choice but I’m sure Ozpin did something off screen that puts him at fault” (see: Qrow saying straight out that Ozpin doesn’t know what happened to Summer and everyone jumping to, “No he definitely does and just lied to Qrow.” Ozpin’s off screen villainy is brought up with a shocking amount of frequency) The fandom takes headcanons and assumptions as fact, leading to an inability to attribute agency to anyone if Ozpin was at all involved in their choice. Ruby entering Beacon, Pyrrha deciding to take on the power, Qrow choosing to be a bird... all of it has been re-framed as Ozpin “forcing” them in one manner or another, which is not only untrue but a real disservice to all their characters. The only time Ozpin “forced” someone to do anything is when he forced Oscar to get involved in this fight, and that’s only “forcing” via unavoidable circumstances. Yeah, technically you could let the farm boy live out his life and just screw the rest of the world... but that would make you a villain via inaction. As someone who was given an actual uninformed choice via the God of Light, Ozpin does a great deal to make sure people know what they’re getting into. Checking at the very last second if Pyrrha is still willing to go through with this. Telling the group to leave now if they’re not wiling to help secure the relic. It’s just that he has to balance that transparency with the never ending risk of information falling into the wrong hands/someone else betraying him... which is no easy task. Do you look at the angry teenager who took her bandit mother’s words at face value and go, “Yes, now is a great time to tell them information that as of yet in no way affects them and would absolutely decimate their mental health at best and lead to them screwing me over at worst”? No. That’s stupid and dangerous and, based on how the group has reacted thus far, just going to make the whole situation that much worse.

#rwby #mymetas #oddnub

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exitiumparit · 5 years

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hey so talk about emily's arc with both ben and greg and how they contrast each other and emily's role in both of those situations

@skymma out here letting me live my best life

God bless Din for allowing me to essay about my best woman Emily Potter.

So, not to frame Emily’s arc around men, but it’s crucial how the boys individually develop against her own development to talk about their influence in her life.

After the Great Hush Puppy Incident, where Ben and Greg both make asses of themselves, Emily shuns them. Rightfully! The boys then do the following:

1. Ben gets better, but he also gets more cautious with Emily, which bites him in the ass later. (Follow me on this, it tracks, I promise)

2. Greg gets worse, but he gets smarter, too.

These mutual arcs of development turn Greg into the abusive villain we know him to be and Ben to our sweetheart nerdy hero of the year, but this is also what sets them both up to their mutual outcomes after Emily comes back.

So Greg’s selfishness increases tenfold and this is why he doesn’t end up being the one to bring Emily back. This is important to comment about the men: Greg doesn’t try to get Emily back, Ben does, which is a comparison I believe fandom forgets. (Wrong) people who aren’t fans of Ben will argue that his mission to save Emily from the rainbow lights wasn’t noble and, in fact, was selfish of him. If it was, Ben would’ve immediately started (let’s remember he lost his mind for a hot second there) getting her back, would’ve talked about the date they were going to go on when she was back, talked about how he’d charm her, etc.

Mind you: all things that Greg brought up that time he called.

But, when Emily is in fact Back, Ben loses his nerve. He stays her friend but keeps up with the lie of the car accident because he was afraid of the stakes once they were actually possible and Emily was in front of him. Ben receded in his character development, didn’t take action, and inadvertently laid out the perfect scenario for Greg to manipulate.

Greg took advantage of the situation and the lie Ben was participating in to gaslight Emily. He got smarter and saw the opportunity to make himself look good in Emily’s eyes, and won it in the short term. (I’m going to come back to this point later.)

They’re unique foils of each other, because as Ben is “losing” Emily, he stays kind and respectful of her space. He lets her know he doesn’t think the situation she’s in to be safe (which is the correct thing to do), but he respects her. As Greg is “losing” Emily, he gets more toxic and more dangerous.

This is, at the end of the day, how they compare against Emily: Ben, overall, turns into a better person, and Greg, overall, turns more toxic. It’s important that these guys really turn this way in reaction to Emily’s action and situations, too, because then she’s the driving plot turner, which gives her the most central position in comparison. Of course it’s a love triangle, but as the driving plot force, she begins and ends their own pursuit of her. Ben “wins” the day, but it’s only because he’s proven himself worthy to Emily’s standards by being a good person. The men are in the reactive role where she’s in the most proactive position to be an agent of change.

This is proven by how Emily starts to free herself from Greg’s very narrow view of the world. Fandom doesn’t forget that Emily is smart and capable, but they do forget how vulnerable she was after she returned, and this is honestly a disservice to Emily’s character.

Let’s go through the facts:

1. Emily has been gone for ten months, and has memory issues she can’t wrap her head around

2. Finds out that literally everyone in her life has been lying to her

3. One of her few friends has feelings for her he seems to be able to not communicate to her healthily

4. Emily values honestly and trustworthiness above all else. When she can’t remember Greg’s character, why would she have a reason to disbelieve Greg at the time?

So, yes, of course, Emily believed Greg. But, as she starts to gain confidence on her own terms, and finds an outlet for her questions outside of Greg (the Meninist hunt), this is when we see an Emily that’s standing on her own. By the time 63 happens, Emily’s already got one foot out of the door of that relationship. She has her truth and what she does understand and remember, she is confident enough to process through her thoughts and without the filter of another person.

That’s powerful, even when her feelings are conflicted for Greg. She takes a moment to defend him, and that’s a genuine defense, but she knows he’s not good for her anymore, and his version of the tale isn’t accurate, so y’know.

She punches him square in the face, lol..

And if Emily’s story solely revolved around Ben and Greg, she would’ve immediately ran into Ben’s arms, but, no, it takes another four months, because there’s more important shit to do.

Ben and Greg are two of the most influential characters on Emily’s arc, I won’t lie. A lot of Emily’s plots are centered around that triangle, but let’s not forget she’s also the foil to the inciting incident of plot through her own disappearance. Her abduction is watered down to a growth point for Ben, but literally out of her creators’ mouth, she wasn’t abducted to grow Ben, she was abducted to align her story with the most significant plot of the time.

Fuck you, sexists who want to water her down.

Emily Potter is her own woman, her own person, and she’s had some people in her life make some good and bad choices that have influenced her in good and bad ways. Ben and Greg’s individual growth arcs (Ben’s for good and Greg’s for evil) are along some of the biggest hallmarks, but they aren’t her entire character.

#skymma #( answered )#headcanon ( emily )#meta ( emily )#finishes this literally MONTHS fucking later #anyways i love emily potter

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itsybitsylemonsqueezy · 7 years

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So... I see the Defenders fandom is starting to have some opinions about the writing. And I’d like to offer my own two cents re: Karen and The V Word. Sadly, it’s not vagina. (Okay but, The Defenders needs 9000% more Sapphic women tho, I’m just saying. Do we have any canonically queer characters come to that??? Thoughts for a different post)

The V word is of course... vigilantism.

And MAN do I have some FEELINGS about Matt and Karen’s interactions, and Matt and Foggy’s interactions come to that, throughout Defenders. Now, I’ve read some good defenses of the writing and I don’t necessarily disagree. This isn’t so much a bashing or even criticism (I lied: it’s a little critical) as just... an exorcism of my feelings about what happened. And my feelings are, essentially... WTF.

Karen and Matt run into each other in the first episode of Defenders and they were... fine??? And that, RIGHT THERE, is what bothered me. WHAT. IN GOD’S NAME. JUSTIFIES KAREN BEING FINE WITH MATT??? When we ended Daredevil season 2, Karen was pissed at Matt, and this was BEFORE the mask reveal. She was pissed at him for lying to her, for patronizing her, for betraying her and Foggy and everything Matt PROFESSES to care about. She was justified in being angry with him. Again, this is all BEFORE the mask reveal. Now they don’t show us Karen’s reaction to the mask and, to be honest, I'm kinda upset with that because it would have contextualized where Matt and Karen are now A LOT better. And, honestly, I think the writers kinda fucked themselves by NOT writing that scene, even for themselves, and instead assuming everyone’s feelings about it and assuming where they would be after X amount of time passed. I’m also annoyed that we have no idea how much time passed between end of season 2 and Defenders because, again, it would make reactions a LOT easier to read.

But, regardless, this is where we are, this is what they gave us, and we’re supposed to believe that enough time has passed that Karen and Matt are on speaking terms. And you know what, I believe that. Because, for better or worse, Foggy and Matt are Karen’s only friends in New York, they are her lifelines, and as mad as she has every right to be at Matt, she couldn’t rip him out of her life entirely; it would hurt her too much. But, being on speaking terms with someone and forgiving them are two VERY DIFFERENT THINGS. And that’s what I felt was missing from their first interaction. Where was the caution? Where was the underlying bitterness, the unresolved anger? Now, part of that is presumably explained by Matt NOT ONLY dropping the truth on her but also saying “I’m retiring” in the same breath. But that DOESN’T FIX WHAT HE DID WRONG. I’m sorry, she might be relieved he’s not endangering himself anymore, she might be gratified he finally told her the truth, but that doesn’t change the fact that for MONTHS he refused to trust her with this information, refused ANYONE’S help, trust, or love, and DID run around taking the law into his own hands and putting himself at incredible risk. Which, besides being hypocritical, is a SLAP IN THE FACE to anyone who cares about him and to his ‘real’ life. Matt, if you got hurt or worse, who would defend your clients? Who would take your cases? If you really believe in being a lawyer, WHY are you throwing that life away???

To sum up, how ever much time has passed, it’s not enough to undo all that Matt’s done. Karen has every right to still be boiling mad at him, civil, courteous, even sympathetic, but mad at all the hurt he caused, the worry, the insult, and the goddamn hypocrisy.

And that was 100% missing from their first encounter. The justified resentment, distrust, and pain show sup more in their later interactions, but I, for the life of me, couldn’t work out why Karen was being so LENIENT with him or TRUSTED??? HIM??? after he had lied to her SO much. And that’s what I LIKED about Foggy, what I ALWAYS like about Foggy, Foggy knows Matt FAR too well. So Foggy doesn’t take any of Matt’s bullshit. Foggy always keeps him at arm’s length, takes his promises of change with a grain of salt. Foggy doesn’t trust Matt as far as he can throw him because he KNOWS Matt and Matt lies. He lies, especially to the people he cares about most and Foggy knows, from long exposure, there’s nothing anyone can do to change that in Matt. And that’s an honest relief because it means Matt can’t hurt Foggy that way anymore. You can’t break trust that isn’t there. And that makes me sad for Karen that she SEEMED to genuinely believe Matt, which... I guess could be explained by not knowing him as long as Foggy has, but... fuck, Matt put Karen through hell. He lied about literally everything. Even the kindest, most forgiving people in the world would hesitate with Matt again. And Karen is a very canny person, she’s been through a fuckton herself. It would strike me as a normal self-preservation instinct to not want to give Matt a second chance so soon. Hell, look at Foggy! Foggy, the kindest soul here, who has endless second chances for Matt, he still doesn’t buy that Matt wants to change.

And here comes the addiction metaphor that I gather people have... mixed feelings about. Personally, I think it robs Matt of autonomy to describe his relationship to vigilantism as addiction. I think it’s a full, free, conscious choice he makes every time. Sure, he’s compelled by his sincere beliefs about justice, but that’s not addiction; I don’t think he “needs” it. And if you believe it is a free, conscious choice, that warrants a little less forgiveness from everyone. Acceptance, yes, but you don’t have to forgive someone for something they will choose to do regardless of what you say. That’s their choice, that’s the point. There’s no excuses for it.

And this also makes Karen’s willingness to put the past behind them and invest in Matt’s future odd because... perhaps she doesn’t see it as a choice. Which would be VERY out of character from where she was in Daredevil, especially re: Frank, but... perhaps she wants to believe something other than what she knows to be true. After all, her experiences with Frank have sorely tested her beliefs in literally everything. Not least of all Matt. And I could buy that, buy that she’s trying to delude herself. That would also pair with her later reaction when Matt comes to take her to Misty’s office and Karen finally lights into him a little. It still feels... distantly hypocritical to me, given her presumed ambivalence about vigilantism, why she’d be so disappointed in Matt when she’s not even sure IF she disagrees with vigilantism in principle... I felt her reactions lacked that nuance and that telling but that was so PRESENT in the Karen of Daredevil season 2, but seems all but disregarded here.

But, as someone pointed out, it’s entirely possible that Karen really doesn’t know as much as the audience does, or as much as the audience thinks she knows. Because The Defenders refused to didn’t show Karen’s reaction to the mask, we can never know for sure what Matt DID tell her. If he truly told her EVERYTHING, or if he was still hedging his bets as fucking usual. So it’s entirely possible that Karen hasn’t put all the myriad Daredevil pieces together yet, or that she hasn’t had enough time to truly digest what Daredevil means to Matt, if not to herself or anyone else. And I could buy that, I could buy that Matt, in his infinite wisdom, was tight-lipped about his feelings as usual and if he, like a genius, announced the whole Daredevil thing was over at the SAME TIME he tells her it WAS a thing, Karen might internalize what Daredevil means a lot differently than we all have. It would also credit her willingness to believe him if he only told her to tell her it’s finished. It makes Matt a COLOSSAL manipulative dick, but that’s not entirely outside his realm of behavior. So that makes me feel a little bit better about this trashfire questionable writing if we suppose this different context for Karen. Now, it’s unfortunate the writing is forcing us to assume a context they haven’t bothered to fucking write, but they perhaps felt that the context would be self-evident from the written dialogue and reactions. SOMETIMES reverse-engineering is intentional. If it was, I don’t think it was particularly successful this time, but I'm willing to credit it as a failed idea rather than no idea.

So that’s my two cents about the Matt-Karen-vigilantism triad. It’s still sad to think that Karen is depending on false information or at best a lack of information, but it would explain why her behavior lacks all of the outrage due to it and all the nuance it was shown to have in season 2 of Daredevil. I still believe that Karen is on the fence about vigilantism and I do think this will get explored more in The Punisher series, though perhaps not as much as we might wish, depending on how much she’s actually in the show. I really don’t want the result of all this to be a disservice to Karen Page because I love Karen Page and the Daredevil show at least has done SO MUCH and so WELL with her and it would be SUCH A SHAME to see them retract some of their good work with her. So we shall see, in the meantime, I’m hopeful for more coherent characterization in the future and I’m willing to use the above justifications to write The Defenders off as a lot of bad lies.

Hope this has been a good read!

#Karen Page #The Defenders #The Defenders spoilers #Gotham or Hannibal or Daredevil #The Punisher #vigilantism #Matt Murdock

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