#sorry I dont have screencap quotes on hand for this! I just got home from work

[jahiera]

hello! i can't remember if you answered this in your wonderful astarion romance meta [THAT I CANNOT FIND AGAIN FOR SOME REASON...], but when he propositions us for a second time -- with the series of pick-up lines that we can cheekily call him out on -- do you think he's still in the 'i'm just trying to keep you on my side' stage, or is there maybe some interest in us beyond that?

Hello!! Ahh thank you, you might mean this one? I have another one where I broke down a separate scene so if it’s that one, I can dig for it! But!!!!

I’m currently phone-bound so I can’t grab my usual quotes screencaps BUT I DO have thoughts on that scene, so let me ramble—

for the scene you’re referencing in particular, I really do think there’s a degree of projection from the player (ie what you think this scene means for astarion and your tav is up to you) and personal interpretation for the pacing in here—so if someone else sees it differently or sees it paced differently for their tav, I can definitely get that. however, for me, this scene sort of represents this very interesting shift in the relationship, but not because astarion is developing interest, but because of how he’s acting around tav now that he knows he has tav’s interest secured.

in short: I do think this scene happens still mostly in “I’m manipulating you to keep myself safe,” territory BUT. What’s interesting is that astarion isn’t making any attempts to disguise that anymore. prior to this scene, his two potential propositions (both the one he initiates pre-goblin camp and the one that happens during the goblin party), while not necessarily “natural,” and most certainly not rooted in the first bloomings of a crush, or whatever, there’s a conscious effort to disguise his routine and, in essence, genuine seduction through appealing to Tav, trying to incite desire, etc. — he’s lying and when you know he’s lying it’s obvious, but there’s wiggle room for Tav to genuinely think, hey, this guy is interested in me. but the scene you’re referencing—“here’s my little treat with their cheeks all flushed…” “three little words. everyone’s favorite. I love you. (that would be a lie.) but a very sweet lie,” or whatever he says at the end there—descends very quickly into teasing (almost taunting) that is VERY heavy handed and very gleeful in how he almost …. dangles the falsehood of it in front of you.

there’s multiple ways you can interpret that. is he getting more egregious in his flirting because he feels like he doesn’t have to try as hard, but still TRIES? is he revealing the truth behind the facade because he’s starting, on some level, to feel comfortable enough to reveal THAT if nothing else? I’m less convinced by the second, more convinced by the first, but myyyy personal interpretation of that scene is one that kind of….. is within the romance but removed from it in terms of. I don’t think it’s about tav here, really. I think it’s about astarion.

to elaborate, I think that there’s a kind of thrill in this moment — astarion has been an object for sex and desire for 200 years, and he’s still doing that, still playing that role, but now he’s doing it without the overarching crushing influence of cazador behind him; his safety within the group is relatively secured now; there is less..... external (or perceived external) pressure to keep up the act, but he still does it. which I think results in him almost……. outright telling you that it’s false? like a kind of release, to say that the I love you is a lie, and you know that, and I know that, and I don’t have to FULLY pretend so, in his own way, he doesn't--he tugs and pulls at emotion, and kind of .... invites Tav into the lie, in a sense (thank god there's no option to say "I love you too," here, I worry that fans would take it and mean it sincerely. like. AUCK). maybe there's almost a vindictive thrill to getting to basically display his exaggeration. or maybe he's pushing at the boundaries of what tav & he have here, seeing how far he's sunk in. playing the role still, but at the end, you know it's at least partially an act. either way, poking and prodding like that, to me, isn't motivated by blooming squishy feelings. rather, it's something less sweet, less romance-y to boot, but more interesting for the character as a whole. or maybe that's just my own bias--I tend to find the Soft Squishy Romance to be the least interesting aspect OF the romantic dynamic. also, to be clear, I'm not trying to soften it up with elaboration here. taking away the context of astarion's history and past, what he's doing here is really just mean. it's a kind of cruel thing to so starkly display that you dont really give a fuck about the feelings of the person in front of you--enough to throw flirting and emotional barbs of "I love you," at them just for the laugh of it. it's a bitch move, but it's an interesting one, and I rarely see the conjunction of His Meanness discussed with how it manifests due to his history-- it makes complete sense and it's FASCINATING.

there is ONE thing I'll say, and that in the dialogue branch where you say, "Are you having fun?" or something along those lines, he says, "I am! It's hard not to, with you." and that, I do believe to be sincere, in its own way. I do think Astarion is having fun with Tav out on the road, being with them, being with the group, enjoying the show so to speak, and exploring his newfound freedom--all of which is wrapped up in proximity to Tav. there's arguments to be made that there's pacing issues here, but I actually interpreted the fact that we don't really have another romance-specific scene before the "you're wonderful"/drow confession to be intentional. to me, the trust bond with astarion isn't developed in moments where he's putting up the act or where you're expressing interest or attraction to him (he already knows, he's already removed from that, there's no trust to grow in these moments because sex/attraction is the last thing associated with trust to him), but rather, trust is reinforced over time on the road, through shows of support out and about during crucial, but NON-ROMANTIC moments (such as killing yurgir for him--a nonromantic act, but one that solidifies that he can trust you.)

all in all, after such longwindedness... I guess my answer is that. while I dont think he LOVES tav at all, and maybe he isn't even romantically there yet with them, I do think he likes Tav by this point, and enjoys their company and their presence. what that means to YOU is up to you! as I said, I think it's a scene where the pacing and emotional weight is partially up for interpretation. you can just as easily imagine that he's got unaddressed growing feelings there as you can not--especially since if you turn him down here, what he'll say is "I've gotten on my back more times than I can count [...] most of them I don't even remember. but you, I'll remember." <- possibly implying that there was the start of a potential something here, ultimately ended, which he isn't really sad about because it removes the overall pressure of putting up a show, but at the same time implies a fondness for tav the person; again, not necessarily romantically oriented, but positive emotion regardless.

#bg3 meta #sorry I dont have screencap quotes on hand for this! I just got home from work #BUT YEAH. this is one of my favorite scenes because of what you can kind of infer from /astarion's character/ for this #it is. probably my least favorite scene in terms of viewing it in any sort of Actual romantic lens #I know there was a lot of gushing over the My Little Treat line but even when I played it without knowing the ending or where #the romance was going. I was like. oh lawd. you are EGREGIOUSLY LYING. #in reality the romance route to me is sooooooo fascinating but I rarely get Big Mushy Feelings about it...... not till late act 3 anyways #everything prior to that I sort of detach from a romance lens at all and it's Just for the buildup to something real. ANYWAYS. #sorry that's not at all relevant to your question! um. #guy who is so normal about character you have to peel like an onion to analyze their 15 different lies and masks on #thank you for the opportunity to RAMBLE INCESSANTLY once again #answered

[felikatze]

Just wanted to say thank you so much for all the brainworms you have been giving me and my friends for the past few hours about Ayin and all the analyses you've been doing about him.

I have been losing my mind in the middle of the night thinking about all the things you've said, turning it over like crazy and trying to compare it with the gameplay I've had of Lobotomy Corporation and Library of Ruina.

Please do more analysis and share more of your ideas! Please? Please, with cherry on top? Please, I beg of you?

Especially if you have in-depth ideas of analyses for the Sephirah and how it relates to both their own characters and Ayin and Angela.

I thank you greatly in advance!

the implication that i've infected an entire friend group with my brainworms is power that will 100% go to my head i feel amazing. what else is analysis posting except trying to inflict people with the same thoughts bouncing around your skull on repeat

i DO have shit on the sephirah but mostly netzach, because i love netzach, and i in fact found my discord ramble about him (and chesed)

i dont have things on how they relate to A and Angela specifically because I mainly kept thinking abt Reverbaration Ensemble parallels... i have so many thoughs abt Netzach and Bremen.

(but if you want me to talk about, say, a specific core supression, or floor realization... i have a lot of thoughts on floor realizations.)

First off I am so sorry that you seem to think I'm smart because that means i have the perfect opportunity to inflict you with this

okay now we can get to the serious stuff

[transcript:

containment breach:

quick ramble abt lor again but i love the ensemble receptions so much. i'm at chesed's rn, and i know he's been chill the entire game, but him just refusing to comment on jae-hoon's tragedy seems, out of context, a dick move, but also is so important for chesed to do? he recognizes that another's suffering is not related to him, that he can't do anything about it, and that this is fine. The closest i'd describe chesed in lobcorp would be "activist burnout." Due to betraying the lab from garion's pressure, chesed was so consumed by guilt, he just blamed himself for everything and became more callous because it's already his fault, right? There's nothing he can do. But in lor, he knows what his responsibilities are, and allows himself joy where he can find it. I love the ensemble receptions bcuz they are just examplary of each patron libriarian's growth and i iqbfjc (sobs)

GOD this sure is a paragraph

also have to salute netzach for carrying his scene all by himself as the musicians of bremen just (animal noises) :pray:

ykno being online i realize that i'm not quiet at all i am a complete and utter chatterbox /end]

[transcript:

containment breach:

thinking abt netzach's scene where he doesn't talk to bremen, because he can't, but recognizes this who has not only lost themself in their own art but also their own suffering

i just i love netzach so much his entire character arc is abt learning to live with depression and learning to want to live again

so he becomes unable to understand, really, why someone would sacrifice themselves for their own art

when he started out just, similar yet different from bremen, completely submerged in his own misery

musicians of bremen reminds me i still have bremen bon bons at home i should eat those. they r tasty /end]

i wanna specifically dig into this scene more because i love that scene, a lot.

Art as we get to know it in the City is irrevocably tied to violence. Puppets are made of human bodies, music is played on bones and sinews. To the artists of the City, to create art is to make someone suffer. Rewatching Netzach's story bits, Roland describes it as doing nothing but seeking stimulation and being provocative.

Furthermore, there is a direct comparison between art and alcohol. To paraphrase more, the Pianist must've been one hell of a stimulant, like getting hit by a strong booze. A performance some are still hungover from.

Netzach's main struggle was addiction because of depression, and his growing appreciation for art is a continuation of that arc. He says himself that art and alcohol are linked.

However, alcohol is a step down from hard drugs. Netzach hasn't quit, but just that step down shows he learned moderation, which makes me very proud of him.

Moderation is what the other.. let's just call them artists, lack. I said in the screencaps above, initially, Netzach was lost in his own suffering, and the musicians of bremen are lost in their art. And if art is seen as equal to suffering, that just means Netzach and Bremen are more similar than expected. (Especially considering what we see of the musicians previously; they’re always trying to chase the same high they experienced listening to the Pianist by any means necessary. The addiction parallels are not suprising.)

I rewatched most of Netzach's lor scenes, and what rlly gets me is that in his first one, he seems almost the exact same as in lobcorp. He doesn't want to work, he got dragged into this against his will, he feels as if his accomplishments are futile.

But! He eventually invites Roland for drinks. He's not drinking to forget alone anymore, he's doing it as social activity. Furthermore, the more time he spends as Patron Librarian of Arts, the more he grows to appreciate art. Art is tied to suffering, still, but it is an expression of suffering. It does not produce any. Or should not, in any case. He sure wishes it wouldn’t.

So we arrive at his Ensemble Reception. This one makes a rather interesting comparison: art as the pursuit of the light. Let me elaborate.

To quote, “Honestly, I wanna tell people to stop doing the kind of art that requires ‘em to immolate themselves and others. Although, on the other hand... I can kinda see where they’re coming from. Art narrows your vision, after all.

You stop caring about the things around you. That’s how most artists seem to act, I think. And so, you indulge in the craft, not realizing that you’re throwing yourself and your surroundings into the fire you started.”

I pose this: Netzach speaks of his experience as Giovanni. Giovanni was a researcher who, when push came to shove, willingly sacrificed himself to advance the project, in hopes of seeing the light, seeing Carmen, again.

Though he dislikes Bremen’s actions, he does not judge them for it, because he recognized that it would be hypocritical. Even so, what shows that he’s grown is that he.. doesn’t want to see people harm themselves anymore. The focus here isn’t if Bremen hurt other people, which they have, but how much of themselves they’ve given up for their performance. He condemns the act, and not the people.

“If I can see that light once more... If I have to muster up the courage to reach it, I’ll gladly do it. It’s easier said than done, though; you need a lot of fearlessness for it.

And I guess you saw the same kind of light I was so desperate to see, yeah? Even if yours was a twisted creature... [...] Though, I don’t think I can tell you off like the others. At least I can see the reason behind it.”

He even explicitly mentions the light. The funny thing is, both Giovanni and Bremen tried to reach the Seed of Light, and Carmen. It’s tragically hilarious that we know Carmen is the voice the Distortions hear.

Hell, the more I think about it, the more you can just compare the Ensemble as a whole to the Outskirts Lab crew, down to Angelica’s puppet body and Carmen’s desecrated corpse.

“And I know pretty well that we have no right to devilishly pick apart each other’s way of art. I’m not very proud of mine, really...”

Netzach just.. gets it. I can’t remember atm, but I don’t think the other Patron Librarians really draw parallels like that. I’m seeing all the parallels now and I can’t unsee them ever. Bro.

His “art,” his way of protecting the light, is still violent. But he sees that perhaps it didn’t have to be, or rather shouldn’t be. I fucking love Netzach so much. His arc just means a lot to me personally, and I’d wager a lot of people who’ve struggled with mental illness would agree.

I’m not gonna get into Netzach’s floor realization here because this post is already long enough, but like, look at the specific flashback of Angela shown in Netzach’s story bits and contrast it to his arc of learning to want to live, and. Yeah.

#Feli gets asked #lobotomy corporation #library of ruina #netzach #NETZACH MY MAN NETZACH. #long post #this took a while to make cuz i got distracted many times by playing video games #also i'm not sorry for the first bit. know it in your heart. i'm right.