#so no rhaegar is not like robert bc rhaegar found love outside of his marriage of duty

[throwawayasoiafaccount]

Op… you make a lot of interesting claims in this post. To get the facts straight before I go on a rant… 1) George claims that Rhaegar was a love struck prince 2) the books don’t mention anything about any marriages being annulled/anyone being set aside 3) seems like Dorne has no issue with Rhaegar and 4) Ned literally never thinks anything bad about Rhaegar… but thinks ill of Robert.

First off, a man trapped in a duty bound marriage and finding love outside that marriage is completely different from a whoremonger shouting about his love while visiting brothels whenever he could. And guess what… Ned straight up thinks that Rhaegar didn’t seem like someone who’d visit brothels. Robert and Rhaegar couldn’t be any more different.

And when did Lyanna want to be wild and free? When is it ever said that Rhaegar locked her in the tower of joy and that Lyanna was a prisoner?

Ned never even alludes to there being any truth in any of these claims. What we do know is that Lyanna greatly resembles Arya in looks and personality… and Arya wants to be a high septon and kings counselor, meaning Arya wants to have a position of power and not be reduced to a baby making machine. Going off of that… it seems like Lyanna didn’t want to be “wild and free,” she just wanted to be treated with respect. The only reason Arya is even treated like she’s wild is because she doesn’t conform to the Westerosi standards for highborn women.

And of course she’d feel miserable when she heard Aerys killed her brother and father. Aerys. Not Rhaegar. I wouldn’t even be surprised if she felt guilt about what happened, but in the end it was Aerys who brutally killed them. And then Rhaegar goes to protect his family and dies, and then Rhaegar’s family is brutally killed and then Lyanna dies. George did claim that the greatest love stories are the tragedies (i may be misremembering but i know he said something along the lines of that lmao).

Op, you claim that Rhaelyas love would’ve died after getting news of the Starks deaths, and then you try to suggest that Rhaegar may have been keeping Lyanna isolated from news in Dorne… like please pick a story to go with! And Rhaelyas love dying or Lyanna not being kept updated on what was going on outside of Dorne just doesn’t seem to be true. When reading Neds chapters, it seems like Lyanna was fully aware of what happened to Rhaegar’s children and Elia… as Lyanna pleaded with Ned like how Sansa pleaded with Ned to not kill Lady (hope i’m not misremembering here lol). And Rhaegar dying with a woman’s name on his lips (likely Lyanna’s name) and Lyanna clutching a winter rose (this may just be symbolism for baby Jon tbh) until she passed away seems to contradict your belief that their love died.

Also, where are you getting the “Rhaegar would suggest to set aside his kids and wife to marry Lyanna” from? The show? You mention how Lyanna would not be okay with this, and I agree that Lyanna would never be fine with setting Elia and Elia’s children aside. But even thinking that Rhaegar would ever even suggest setting aside Elia and his children is bonkers. Like seriously… there was so much tension between Aerys and Rhaegar that the Royal court was said to have begun looking like the situation before the Dance of the Dragons. And Dorne was Rhaegar’s greatest support! Why would it make any sense for him to annul his marriage with Elia? And please remember that during the sack Rhaenys hid under her fathers bed. The text supports him loving his kids/his child who wasn’t a baby seeking to be protected by him so why would he endanger them and their positions? (and no, disappearing with Lyanna for awhile isn’t him endangering his family. Aerys was the one who endangered his family (hot take brandon was the one who endangered the starks like wth was he thinking???). and tbh it seems like Aerys knew exactly where to find Rhaegar so did Rhaegar and Lyanna even disappear? or were they just keeping their location a secret from the rebels? the rebels who ended up killing Rhaegar’s family?)

I will say that how op first started to characterize Lyanna is something I agree with, her being principled, noble, honorable, and just with a sensitive side seems to be true, but then op goes on to continue to claim that Lyanna was wild and that she had little regard as to how other people perceived her. There’s no reason for us to believe that she didn’t care about what others thought of her or that she was wild and wanted freedom more than anything, it just seems like she dared to tread away from what was expected of Westerosi highborn women and that she didn’t want to be married to Robert. And guess what… Robert ended up being an abuser! *gasp* Lyanna dear… you clocked Robert right away.

And seriously… how does any of what op mentioned back up their claim that Lyanna would never resign herself to the position of a mistress? Is being a mistress/paramour really that bad? Does it truly seem like Lyanna would look down on those women? Her mini me Arya doesn’t look down on the courtesans of Braavos who occupy a similar position as mistresses in society. And it seems like plenty of noblewomen have been mistresses in the past and they are still as respected as a woman can be in Westerosi society. Missy Blackwood and Elaena Targaryen are right there. And Op, if Lyanna was Rhaegar’s mistress, why would you think that Lyanna couldn’t have been happy? Are we going to doubt Ellarias happiness and her love of Oberyn because they weren’t married? Should I doubt Rhaenyra and Harwins happiness because Rhaenyra was married to Laenor? Rhaegar and Elias marriage was not a love match. And if Rhaegar and Lyanna did marry… ever wonder if polygamy was introduced as a Valyrian practice by George to hint at Rhaegar taking a second wife? Should I now doubt Rhaenys and Aegons happiness and love because Rhaenys was Aegons second wife?

Now can we please stop acting like two people married due to duty have any reason to love each other? Nedcat seems to be an exception in Westeros. Lyanna and Rhaegar falling in love isn’t ruining Elia and Rhaegar’s marriage when love wasn’t there in the first place.

haha my whole post is a bit messy i just wanted to get my thoughts out :)

fuckkkk i want to tag more (my tags are a mess lmao no i’ve not gone through them and no they will not make any sense)

#robert was a brute #when did lyanna seem disgusted by roberts bastards? #seems like she was just disgusted by roberts behavior of claiming to love her while visiting brothels #say it with me folks: there’s not a single mention of rhaegar loving elia their marriage was for duty #so no rhaegar is not like robert bc rhaegar found love outside of his marriage of duty #robert treated lyanna like an object and never even saw/loved the real her #lyanna clocked that and later fell in love with a man who loved the real her #aka the knight of the laughing tree #yeah the text hasn’t truly confirmed anything yet but at least my version of events isn’t contradicted by the books #omg ppl need to stop acting like being a mistress is some morally corrupt position god damn #nedcat you will always be famous #but jon snow will always be even more famous #bc he’s rhaelyas love child #rip rhaegar lyanna and elia i’ll save you guys from tumblr bad takes #i love that george makes it clear that marriages of duty can be nasty affairs #and tumblr desides to demonize characters who dared to find love instead of criticizing the system of selling daughters off like broodmares #like bruh i would be sooo happy to learn if elia had a paramour on the side #i’m looking at you elia x ashara shippers #tho i don’t think that they had a romantic relationship i do find it hilarious that ppl who claim rhaegar is horrible and endangered his #…family turn around and applaud elia for potentially doing the same… #couldn’t be me tho i pretend that rhaelya and their children are perfectly happy and that elia found love as well #as i think rhaelya were well in their rights to go against the system that tried making them miserable and i hope elia did the same #these tags are a mess and kinda don’t make sense lmao #rhaegar targaryen you will always be famous #asoiaf fandom critical #rip boar you will be missed #robert deserved worse #ppl need to stop acting like rhaelya is homewrecking when george himself calls elia and rhaegar’s marriage complex #jon will learn that his parents were in love and he’ll learn good shit about them and he’ll think good thoughts about them #and then this fandom will go insane and jon will start being hated like dany for daring to love his parents

[nineteensixtieschikadee]

Jon Snow and his Two Fathers: A balance between Ice and Fire

You know what I utterly despise about what Double Dicks did with Jon Snow’s character in the show--aside from omitting the whole Azor Ahai storyline, and making the entire R+L=J plot absolutely meaningless?? It’s that Double Dicks apparently “FORGOT” that aside from Ned Stark, Rhaegar Targaryen was ALSO Jon Snow’s father. Now lemme explain what I mean. Yes, the show has established however did NOT PAY OFF R+L=J. And not only was this whole plot line the entire purpose of Jon Snow’s arc, it was also the whole backbone of GOT’s history, 20 years before it began. And Rhaegar Targaryen was the center of it all. 

Part of what makes !BOOK Jon such a fan favorite, and why he would arguably make an EXCELLENT ruler/king, is because NOT ONLY does he have his adoptive father’s HONOR AND MORALS, he also has his biological father’s PASSION, CHARISMA AND LEADERSHIP SKILLS. Meaning that while Jon has a strong set of honor and morals--which is known to get you killed in GOT--his passion and natural borne leadership skills help BALANCE those things out that effectively makes not only a WORTHY leader, but also a POWERFUL one. 

I started rereading the books again since the show’s garbage now, and just in the first couple of Jon chapters in AGOT you can already see how much Jon is growing and developing into that of a worthy leader. For example, when Jon first enters the Night’s Watch, he is almost somewhat of a formidable bully to the other night’s watch members. Not only because of his ego of being a “highborn raised bastard,” but because he is actually a better swordsman than they are. (Which he proves.) And also because the other members keep teasing him about how he’s a bastard with no mother. It isn’t until Donal Noye calls Jon out on his bullshit, and Tyrion once again having to reaffirm Jon of his identity by letting him know that his title can be used as an effective armor, that Jon beings to realize his mistakes and then tries to become better. And by his next chapter, Jon is already TEACHING the other night’s watch members how to sword fight effectively. He begins to be much more patient with them, and each time they fall, he helps pick them back up. 

And it’s not like no one else can see his leadership skills. Like if you didn’t think Jon could become a great king because he lacks, why do you think Jeor Mormont chose Jon to be his successor? From the point when Jeor gives Jon Longclaw, he begins to train him under his wing, because he saw potential in Jon. Jon has the skills and the mind to become a leader. A GOOD ruler. And no, don’t tell me Jon is too dumb to become a good king/ruler. Because !BOOK JON is not. Let’s compare this to Sansa. Sansa stans claim that Sansa would be a good ruler because she was trained under Cersei, Littlefinger, Olenna, Margery, and to some extent, Tyrion? But if you notice, all her mentors are DIRTY. While they are smart, they’re cheaters and DISHONORABLE people. And have proven multiple times that they wouldn’t be good rulers. 

Jon on the other hand, has had 3 mentors. Jeor Mormont, Mance Rayder, and Stannis Baratheon. (Technically Jeor is the only mentor. But Jon has served under the wing of both Mance and Stannis.--Especially after he becomes Lord Commander.) Two of Jon’s “mentors” are KINGS. While the other is simply an “ARMY LEADER”. What do all 3 of these leaders have in common? People follow them, not only because they have to, but because they are seen as “worthy to be followed.” All 3 of them not only have effective leadership skills, but they DO NOT have “Shit for Honor.” At least, to some extent. Jeor poses as the leader that knows the REAL THREAT beyond the wall. And that’s what he trains Jon for. Becoming the leader that will become the shield that guides and protects the realm. Mance is King that wants to guide his people to safety because of the THREAT OF THE OTHERS. (White Walkers.) And Stannis the Mannis is the RIGHTFUL KING of Westeros. He is cold and harsh. But he is HONORABLE  and JUST. He is the most effective ruler out of the 3, and part of the reason is because of Jon. To those who say Jon cannot be a good ruler, guess who’s the man who suggested Stannis fight the Ironborn at Deepwood, and in turn, win the support of the Mormonts and the freefolk? When Stannis is fighting battle outside of Winterfell, it’s JON who maintains all the political shit for Stannis back at the wall. You can kinda say Jon was acting “Hand of the King,” while Davos was at White Harbor. And you can be damn sure that he was good at it. It’s not up until the Arya--pink letter plot in ADWD where we see Jon start to lose it a little before ultimately succumbing to love over duty.  

ALL of these traits and effectiveness to rule, came from one man. HIS BIOLOGICAL FATHER, Rhaegar Targaryen. He didn’t get it from Ned, who we we know was a pretty weak Hand for the King. He got it from Rhaegar, the man who conspired to usurp his father from the throne as he was growing madder by the day. (In theory.) From Barristan’s pov, Rhaegar would’ve made a BETTER KING than all the 3 kings he’s served previously. He was DETERMINED, DELIBERATE, AND DUTIFUL. He was also very PROTECTIVE of his people, as claimed by Jamie, who was tasked by Rhaegar to protect Elia and their children. All of that, can be found in Jon. ESPECIALLY in Jon’s chapters in ADWD. 

Rhaegar was a natural born leader. He was loved by the people, and people followed him because the people believed in him. Sound familiar? Jon is also a natural born leader, (with evidence from above), and the fact that he does whatever he can to protect his people too. The Battle at the Wall against Wildlings is an excellent example of how Jon leads his people, and how he protects his brothers. This is what ultimately leads him to become Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch. 

Another trait that Jon took after Rhaegar, was his ability to sword fight. (To all the people who claimed that Jon couldn’t have killed the Night King in s8e3, because he’s not a good swordsman, or wasn’t “stealthy” enough: Fuck you. Lmaoo, jk.) In the books, out of Robb, Jon and Arya, who do you think is actually considered the better swordsman of the 3??? HMMMMMMMM I WONDER WHOOOOO???? While Robb is the better military tactician/commander, and Arya is pretty damn good with a bow, it’s JON who’s the better soldier. In the books, it is known that while Robb was better with a lance, Jon was better with a SWORD. Sooooo that just shat on all fancystans that claimed only Arya was “skilled” enough to kill the NK. LMAOOOO WHY DO YOU THINK THE NK EVEN AVOIDED 1 ON 1 COMBAT WITH JON?? BC Jon was slowing him down? LMAOO K, whatever helps you sleep at night. XDD (I’m still bitter about this one.)

Let’s also talk about Jon’s attitude in comparison with Rhaegar’s. Rhaegar, while being charismatic and passionate, was also very melancholic and very introverted. He was “born with a sense of doom.” Jon while also solemn and introverted, he has a “melancholic temper” to him. (Actually he gets this from both his mother and father. Rhaegar being melancholic, and Lyanna being wolf-blooded.) While Jon does not express his feelings much, when he is overcome with emotion, he acts impulsively. Going back to the “sense of doom,” Rhaegar was melancholic because he was born out of grief in the midst of tragedy. (Summerhall.) Jon, for obvious reasons, because he was a bastard and felt unloved. Who was ALSO born most likely out of GRIEF and in the midst of TRAGEDY. (Robert’s Rebellion.)  Both these two were an enigma by the people around them. Speaking of introverted, both these two broody boys loved to read too. And often used it as an escape from the real world. 

MORE PARALLELS: Both Rhaegar and Jon broke their vows FOR woman. Jon broke them twice. Jon broke his vows to be with Ygritte, but he BROKE THEM AGAIN for Arya. Interestingly enough, Rhaegar, if he really loved Lyanna or not, still BROKE HIS MARRIAGE VOWS for her. And Arya is a younger, direct parallel of Lyanna. So there is some beautiful symmetry going on here. Also, there is this nice little irony I found, that while Rhaegar represents FIRE, he has a melancholy made of ICE. And while Lyanna represent ICE, she has a WOLF-BLOODED TEMPER made of FIRE. Jon is the balance between those two. And one more parallel: From Ned’s POV we learn that Rhaegar did not frequent, or liked going to brothels. If we play this in with Jon, we learn from Jon that he HATES the idea of fathering a bastard. Which is actually a conflict that prevents him from sleeping with Ygritte on multiple occasions. He’s afraid of getting her pregnant, because he’s a bastard, and that would make his would be child a bastard too. 

So yes, while it’s evident that Jon has a lot of Ned in him--more so than ANY of the Stark children--aside from Arya, Jon has SO MUCH MORE of his biological father in him. And yes, it is important that Jon has Ned’s traits. It really puts emphasis on how Jon tries hard to be like his father, and how Ned’s presence and morals still lives even after he’s long dead. But the same should be claimed about Rhaegar too. His presence strongly lives on in Jon. And it shows very deeply, despite nobody knowing anything about it. Actually, you could probably theorize that Ned saw it in Jon too. 

This is why I HATE what the show has done with Jon. Other than saying fuck you to the Azor Ahai story in favor of fanservice, and not properly paying off R+L=J, the show ultimately decided to omit ANY IMPORTANCE Rhaegar had in this fucking wretched story. Let’s also not forget, the only reason why everyone’s storyline was there in first place was because of Rhaegar! Rhaegar Targaryen is arguably the REAL MAIN CHARACTER of ASOIAF and by making his whole storyline/character utterly meaningless, almost ALL the plot lines in GOT have become pathetically pointless and in vain. Jon in the books has both Ned’s traits AND Rhaegar’s traits. Adding MORE EMPHASIS to ICE & FIRE. By having both honor and morals, and the INTELLIGENCE to lead, you can be assured Jon would’ve made a good fucking King. His rule would literally be a direct replica of Aegon the Unlikely. Who was considered one of the BEST KINGS westeros had. But nooooooo the show just had to go out of their way and make Jon a Ned 2.0. Jon Snow was removed of all his intelligence and complexity to become a painfully 1 dimensional HONORABLE IDIOT. Where’s the balance? You know who would’ve been good at ruling the 7 kingdoms? I DON’T KNOOOOW, UHHHHH THE YOUNGEST LEGITIMATE SON OF RHAEGAR WHO NOT ONLY HAS A STRONG SENSE OF LEADERSHIP AND POWER, BUT ALSO THE DAMN MORALS AND HONOR OF THE MOST HONORABLE MAN OF WESTEROS AKA NED STARK??????? WHO HAS ALSO TAKEN NUMEROUS LEADERSHIP ROLES AND MENTORED UNDER SOME OF THE BEST RULERS/LEADERS OF WESTEROS IN HIS GENERATION??? But whooops, I forgot, DEEP/GOOD STORYTELLING IS ONLY FOR 8TH GRADE BOOK REPORTS. 

Jon though, is highly unlikely to become king of 7 kingdoms in the books though. Most probably just King in the North. But to those who say Jon doesn’t want power and all that, naaaaah. Jon’s always wanted to be a Stark. He’s always wanted to inherit something, or have power in some way. When Stannis was willing to legitimize Jon to get the North, Jon was actually contemplating on doing it. But then he saw Ghost and remembered his vows. So he declines. But Jon’s whole importance is actually to protect the realm against whites. And from the end of Dance, we are getting closer to that direction. Jon’s whole parentage while yes, makes him have the most legitimate claim to the throne, holds much more IMPORTANCE for the war against the Others. (Azor Ahai). However because of this whole AA/WW storyline, Jon becoming king, would make it that much more MEANINGFUL. A king that guarded and protected the realm from those who would harm it. A king worthy of ruling the realm. You can be certain that not only would his adoptive father be PROUD, but his biological father would be too. And that’s the ultimate reward that Jon’s ever wanted. 

But Jon’s arc in the show might actually be the same path he might take in the books. It’s a very appropriate ending for Jon to go North of the wall in the end and reject the throne. But holy fuck, the show made it so unrewarding and overall proved to be a terrible ending for Jon. IF GRRM has the same ending for Jon in the books, you can be damn assured that it’s going to be far more superior to his parallel ending in the show, and will be the most rewarding ending for Jon. (Kinda like what happens to Frodo in LOTR.) It will be Jon’s A Dream of Spring after a harsh winter’s night.

( Whether he wants it or not, I’m still hoping for Jon to be King of the 7 Kingdoms though.) This is really long, holy shit. Congrats for making it to the end. xD

#game of thrones #got spoilers #Jon Snow #a song of ice and fire #asoiaf #Rhaegar Targaryen #Lyanna Stark #rhaegar x lyanna #Ned Stark #Arya Stark #jonrya #house stark #house targaryen