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my-arya-underfoot · 5 years

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Starklings post-war speculation (book based)

You’ve talked before about Westeros after the Long Night and war and also a bit about the Starks roles (Bran being King in the North rather than Arya or Sansa). How do you think the Starks will fit into whatever happens ‘after’?

Finally answering your question anon, sorry for the long wait :/

Going off the theory of the post-Long Night Westeros undergoing social reform and breaking up into separate kingdoms again (maybe held together by a central council or alliance of some sort) - how do the Starklings fit into it all?

Not to get too emotional, but our bb’s are going to change the world. GRRM has put Bran, Arya, Sansa and Jon on specific development arcs, each honing particular skills, and I think those skills will be instrumental in the roles they’ll take on in rebuilding Westeros.

Arya

Based on the books so far, I’d bet a lot of money on Arya ultimately taking on a leadership role championing the smallfolk. (Linking back to Westeros’ probable social upheaval).

Her arc is saturated with witnessing the abuse of commoners and the warping of justice; from Mycah to Harrenhal to the Brotherhood to opposing the Faceless Men’s philosophy.

They'd let the queen kill Lady, that was horrible enough, but then the Hound found Mycah....And no one had raised a voice or drawn a blade or anything, not Harwin who always talked so bold, or Alyn who was going to be a knight, or Jory who was captain of the guard. Not even her father.

Arya watched them die and did nothing. What good did it do you to be brave? There were no brave people on that march, only scared and hungry ones. Most were women and children.

She took a deep breath, then lifted the broomstick in both hands and brought it down across her knee. It broke with a loud crack, and she threw the pieces aside. I am a direwolf, and done with wooden teeth.

Arya drew back from him. "He killed the slave?" That did not sound right.

GRRM seems to be setting her up a a representative of the smallfolk, pushing for a more just, egalitarian society and reforming oppressive laws. If a united council/leadership of sorts exists, then it’s entirely viable that Arya will be the one voicing the needs of the common people.

Imo, the role brings together all of Arya’s many strengths: a) being able to connect with and befriend anyone b) caring fiercely about justice and trying to take it into her own hands c) protecting the underdogs d) being a go-between/liaison between the highborn world she was born in and the commoners she became part of, e) travelling over a lot of Westeros and beyond.

(Maybe she’ll even take over the Brotherhood without Banners from her mother?? A group that was about helping the helpless but got warped by vengeance along the way – exactly what Arya is grappling with right now).

Also, worth mentioning Arya has lived outside of Westeros in Braavos, which has a different type of governing structure, giving her a broader perspective on ruling and society than most characters.

While she may be based in the North, given how much time Arya spent in the Riverlands – where the worst abuses of smallfolk and injustice took place – she may end up becoming a key figure there.

(…+ Gendry)

Moving more from speculation to wishful thinking – though not so wishful nowadays – it’s entirely conceivable Gendry would be involved in Arya’s endgame.

Gendry is one of the most prominent smallfolk characters, is vocal about his disdain of highborns and attracted to the early Brotherhood without Banners. Him being someone who helps Arya with her work and reforms would fit.

"Gendry, do you swear before the eyes of gods and men to defend those who cannot defend themselves, to protect all women and children.” - Arya, ASoS

(Plus, with a side of forge sex and gowns of golden leaves).

Book-wise, I don’t think Arya will become Lady of Storms End: Ruler of one kingdom and lady of a castle seems very limiting for Arya, she’s had no connections to the Stormlands thus far and it would be weird for her resolution to suddenly become subservient to Gendry’s inheritance. I still think it’s more likely that Edric Storm will get Storms End.

(The show is a different matter and D&D have devalued Arya so much it’s anyone’s guess where she’ll end up).

So that’s my call for Arya.

Sansa

With Sansa, as a recurring foil to Arya it would make sense if her role in Westeros as the flipside of her sisters’ – while Arya is reforming the underbelly of Westeros, Sansa has been built to work amongst high lords.

Over the series, we’ve seen her hone her skills in court, among nobles and in politics; and apprentice to Littlefinger’s in the art of manipulation:

Sansa felt that she ought to say something. What was it that Septa Mordane used to tell her? A lady's armor is courtesy, that was it. She donned her armor and said, "I'm sorry my lady mother took you captive, my lord." - ACoK

Tyrion led Sansa around the yard, to perform the necessary courtesies.She is good at this, he thought, as he watched her tell Lord Gyles that his cough was sounding better, compliment Elinor Tyrell on her gown, and question Jalabhar Xho about wedding customs in the Summer Isles. - Tyrion, ASoS

Sansa was asleep on her feet by then, wanting only to crawl off to her bed, but Petyr caught her by the wrist. "You see the wonders that can be worked with lies and Arbor gold?" - Sansa, AFFC

". . . Lord Nestor's claim to the Gates will suddenly be called into question. I promise you, that is not lost on him. It was clever of you to see it. Though no more than I'd expect of mine own daughter.""Thank you." She felt absurdly proud for puzzling it out...” - Sansa, AFFC

GRRM has indicated that Sansa is ideally suited for post-Long-Night politics, particularly in whatever network or council that’s put in place between kingdoms: Managing relationships between nations, negotiating treaties and agreements, smoothing over conflicts, brokering peace between parties; winning leaders over; image-management; the nitty-gritting politicking.

It would be satisfying if Sansa – who the world originally saw as nothing more than a pretty, airheaded wife-to-be – ends up doing the hard, complex, political brainwork.

In connection to all that, I honestly love the idea of Sansa as a Northern ambassador: She loves Winterfell but knows how to play the game in the South – so let her represent her kingdom and Northern interests to the rest of Westeros.

(Sansa seems to be heading towards becoming a politician akin to Tyrion or Littlefinger; while Bran, Dany and Jon have trained more for leadership and that is an important distinction and separate skillset).

(Again, this is book not show based, as the show is hammering us over the head with Sansa becoming ruler in the North/Lady of Winterfell, which…ok. I’ve talked before how unfortunately the writers have trampled over the other Starks siblings’ connections to their home to justify Sansa’s position).

Bran

All hail, King in the North, Lord of Winterfell, Bran the Rebuilder.

There are a lot of reasons why it makes sense for Bran to be the Stark rebuilding Winterfell and doing the day-to-day governing of its people:

He’s the one who’s spent the most time in the North; he’s the one we’ve actually seen being taught to rule as Lord of Winterfell; he’s the heir and first in-line; he’s connected to the deep, mystical heart of the North of the weirwood networks and greenseers, he has the Starkiest-of-Stark names of the former Stark Kings and legends.

Unlike Arya and Sansa, he hasn’t been to other parts of Westeros (apart from further North) and built as many relationships and learned about politics or dynamics in other places. He’s fully rooted in the North, Winterfell and its people.

There’s a much more detailed examination of why exactly Bran should be King in the North and Lord of Winterfell here, which says it much better than I can, but I don’t see how you can read these quotes, and think it will be anyone but Bran:

Bran could see all of Winterfell in a glance. He liked the way it looked spread out beneath him… It made him feel like he was lord of the castle, in a way even Robb would never know.” – AGoT

"Your notion about the bastard may have merit, Bran," Maester Luwin said after. "One day you will be a good lord for Winterfell, I think." – ACoK

“The stone is strong, Bran told himself, the roots of the trees go deep, and under the ground the Kings of Winter sit their thrones. So long as those remained, Winterfell remained. It was not dead, just broken. Like me, he thought. I'm not dead either.” – AcoK

“You are only a boy, I know, but you are our prince as well, our lord's son and our king's true heir. We have sworn you our faith by earth and water, bronze and iron, ice and fire….we are your servants to command.” - ASoS

(I’m not expecting robot!Bran to get king/lordship in the show – D&D massacring his character and turning him into an emotionless, Google search bar is still imo one of the worst things they’ve done imo).

As for all the theories for Sansa (and more rarely Arya) becoming Queen in the North, I actually think that role is too limiting for both of them – they’ve travelled over Westeros and seem suited to having much wider role than just Northerners. That’s not to say the two of them– and Jon if he lives – couldn’t have a place in their home, be based at Winterfell and travel further afield; it doesn’t mean they couldn’t advice Bran or work for the good of the North; it doesn’t mean they would be Princesses of Winterfell. It’s just there’s a hell lot more foreshadowing for King Bran.

(…+ Meera)

So, if we’re going to have any Queen in the North, it’s gotta be Meera. The gods only know how much the Reeds deserve it and Bran is literally hearteyes already.

Jon (...+ Dany)

Much as it physically pains me to admit it, chances are Jon and Dany will die saving the world: As many have said, they’ve got ‘messiah’ written all over them. As GRRM has always said – in the end the throne doesn’t matter, the ultimate fight is about the living. So, for Jon and Dany, it makes sense their ultimate fate wouldn’t be getting the throne but ensuring there’s a Westeros left to rebuild at all.

The only thing that makes me doubt them kicking it, is the sheer amount of time GRRM has spent giving the pair leadership training (see above point with Bran) as Lord Commander and Queen of Meereen respectively. GRRM’s issue with wanting to justify having a ‘good ruler’ in the end and not just ‘they ruled wisely’ gives me a smidge of hope the two of them might make it.

So, playing a fun game of if they survive; they’d logically be the ones getting the different kingdoms to cooperate, managing a central council/alliance, leading change, and acting as symbols of peace and the future. With the upheaval and massive change Westeros would be facing, they’re both leaders who would be equipped to forge a new way.

Both of them have experience in upending old systems, ushering in new eras and struggling to make different groups cooperate – Jon with the Nights Watch making peace with the Free Folk, the Nights Watch and the North; and Dany in Meeren with the slaves and former slave-owners.

Of course, it didn’t go perfectly, but they were learning and sure as hell have more experience than anyone else in taking on the role of rebuilding Westeros and forcing newly-independent kingdoms to cooperate.

Again, it may be Daenerys’ “I want to break the wheel” is a clumsy way of the writers trying to set that up.

Bonus: Tyrion and Davos

I’d put Tyrion’s chances of survival above Jon and Dany’s, but way below Bran, Arya and Sansa’s. In the books it does seem likely he’ll be the third head of the dragon and will be joining Jon and Dany on their mission to martyrdom.

That said, if he does survive, like Sansa he’d be ideal to play a role on a centralized council.

Out of the main characters he’s the one who spent the most time doing actual politicking in Kings Landing; he’s recognised for his brain; the main character who’s been up-close with the inner workings of government and was excellent acting as Hand. It’s not beyond the realms of possibility he’d be able to flex all those muscles in forcing post-Westeros leaders to work with each other and manage the logistics of rebuilding the kingdom.

Preferably Davos will get to retire, raise his remaining kids and live a quiet life. But in adding to the social upheaval and how he’s played the role of bringing in a different perspective to Stannis’ court and moved from commoner to lord, I’d put him in the running of being one of the main voices and architects of post-war Westeros.

#asoiaf theory #asoiaf speculation #asoiaf ending

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castaliareed · 6 years

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Traitor’s Seed: Revelations in Sansa IV and Jon VII of A Game of Thrones

I’ve never seen this particular foreshadowing/paralleling discussed before. Of course, that doesn't mean it hasn’t been written about. If you know of other posts that talk about these two chapters link me! Would love to read other thoughts.

Here it goes...

Over the past few months, I’ve been re-reading very slowly A Game of Thrones. My first thought is that yes the book does hold up on re-read. There are beautiful moments that the book reveals on the second read. There are secrets and foreshadowing as well. And then there are the surprises. One of those surprises was Sansa IV and Jon VII. One of the strongest instances of Jonsa foreshadowing, I’ve seen so early in the books. The similarities are mindblowing.

These chapters follow each other. They are bookended by Arya IV and Bran VI. All four of these chapters follow Ned XIV, the chapter where Ned is betrayed in the throne room. To review the order of chapters when reading them is Ned XIV, Arya IV, Sansa IV, Jon VII, and Bran VI.

There is a story being told in how the story is told. The order of the POV chapters, the structure of them and how they relate to the ones before can tell us much about the author’s intentions. The order of events as we read them is Ned is betrayed, Arya escapes and Syrio dies, Sansa meets with Cersei and writes the letters, Jon brings back the dead men, hears of Ned’s imprisonment, and kills a wright, Bran watches as Robb prepares to leave Winterfell and talks with Osha in the Godswood.

The story moves along chronologically for the most part until the last two books. However, it is not exact. For reference, this Reddit user made a great Timeline. This really helps when trying to understand how the last two books relate.

The Reddit timeline tells us that Sansa IV and Jon VII happen about a week and half between each other. In between Sansa IV and Jon VII the earlier events of Jon V and Jon VI happen. Plus, an event that is mentioned in Bran VI happens before Jon VII. Both, Jon V and VI are placed before we read about Ned’s betrayal. This tells us that the order Ned, Arya, Sansa, Jon, Bran is much more important than exact chronology.

Essentially, these chapters show us Ned’s children dealing with the repercussions of his imprisonment for treason. Each chapter foreshadows the future path of the children. Arya is on the run and also will find herself in Braavos where Syrio was from. Sansa will be tied to Littlefinger who is in this chapter. She will also learn to play the political game that Cersei plays with her. Jon will be both on the political side and part of the fight against the dead. Bran finds himself at a weirwood with Osha and Hodor.

What stood out and pushed me to investigate further were the similarities between Sansa IV and Jon VII. I really recommend going back and reading these two chapters together at the minimum. On the surface, they seem very different. Sansa is locked in her room in King’s Landing. Then taken to see Cersei and forced to write letters begging her family to bend the knee. Jon helps bring back the dead brothers Ghost found on the other side of the Wall. When he returns, a letter from King’s Landing arrived with news of Ned’s imprisonment, later he destroys the wight that tries to attack Lord Mormont. Nothing similar on the surface. No, the similarities are in the details. Once you see them….well you won’t really be the same...

All quotes come from either Sansa IV or Jon VII in the first book of ASOIAF, A Game of Thrones. Sansa’s quotes are listed first, Jon’s come second. The order of the quotes as they appear in each chapter is not exact from beginning to end. The order and flow of the two chapters are very similar. However, a few themes appear repeatedly and I tried to pull the best quotes for each theme.

Dead Bodies

First, they both are seeing or dealing with dead bodies at the beginning of the chapter.

“When Sansa peered down, she saw a body impaled on the huge iron spikes below. She averted her eyes quickly, afraid to ask, afraid to look too long, afraid he might be someone she knew.”

“‘Othor," announced Ser Jaremy Rykker, "beyond a doubt. And this one was Jafer Flowers." He turned the corpse over with his foot, and the dead white face stared up at the overcast sky with blue, blue eyes. "They were Ben Stark's men, both of them."

My uncle's men, Jon thought numbly. He remembered how he'd pleaded to ride with them. Gods, I was such a green boy. If he had taken me, it might be me lying here …”

Take a Seat

They are both told to sit down by the people telling them what has happened. Cersei tells Sansa and Lord Mormont tells Jon. Their reactions to hearing that their father is a traitor

"No," Sansa blurted. "He wouldn't do that. He wouldn't!"

"No," Jon said at once. "That couldn't be. My father would never betray the king!"

Of course ,they would say the same thing. They are Ned’s children through and through. We could assume this was the reaction Arya and Bran would have as well. They both go on to insist that the King was Ned’s friend, to say their must be a mistake or a lie.

Traitor’s Seed

They are both referred to as the child of a traitor by other’s. This is told to their faces.

‘"A child born of traitor's seed will find that betrayal comes naturally to her," said Grand Maester Pycelle. "She is a sweet thing now, but in ten years, who can say what treasons she may hatch?"’ -

“And then he heard the laughter, sharp and cruel as a whip, and the voice of Ser Alliser Thorne. "Not only a bastard, but a traitor's bastard," he was telling the men around him.”

**Bonus foreshadowing in the above Sansa quote. In ten years, she will be hatching all kinds of political schemes. Had GRRM included the orginially planned 5 year time hop between book 3 and 4, we would get Sansa hatching plans in perhaps 8-10 years time of this quote. While, we don’t know in the books what kind of political schemes she’ll get up to, we can assume that they aren’t so different from the show.**

Doubts and Confusion

Sansa displays confusion. She wants to speak to her father and she is still a young girl dreaming of marrying a Prince.

“"Please, Your Grace, there's been a mistake." Sudden panic made her dizzy and faint. "Please, send for my father, he'll tell you, he would never write such a letter, the king was his friend."”

A two paragraphs later.

“"But I love him," Sansa wailed, confused and frightened. What did they mean to do to her? What had they done to her father? It was not supposed to happen this way. She had to wed Joffrey, they were betrothed, he was promised to her, she had even dreamed about it. It wasn't fair to take him away from her on account of whatever her father might have done.”

Jon has less confusion and more doubt.

"But it's a lie," Jon insisted. How could they think his father was a traitor, had they all gone mad? Lord Eddard Stark would never dishonor himself … would he?

He fathered a bastard, a small voice whispered inside him. Where was the honor in that? And your mother, what of her? He will not even speak her name.”

Letters

Everyone, thanks to season 7, remembers that Sansa had to write letters asking her mother and Robb to bend the knee to Joffrey. How many remember that Jon too was asked to help write a letter following Ned’s imprisonment?

“"I'll … I'll write the letters," Sansa told them.”

Often what is missed in the Sansa chapter, is how she believes that she can help her father. She thinks he might even be exiled and later she could persuade Joffrey to bring him back. Oh, innocent Sansa.

Jon too is concerned about what will happen to Ned. He knows there is a precedent for men accused of treason redeeming themselves at the Wall.

While it would save Ned’s life. Lord Mormont sees an opportunity to have a High Lord at the Wall.

“"As to that, I cannot say, lad. I mean to send a letter. I knew some of the king's councillors in my youth. Old Pycelle, Lord Stannis, Ser Barristan … Whatever your father has done, or hasn't done, he is a great lord. He must be allowed to take the black and join us here. Gods knows, we need men of Lord Eddard's ability."?

Then a few paragraphs later….

"Your duty is here now," the Lord Commander reminded him. "Your old life ended when you took the black." His bird made a raucous echo. "Black." Mormont took no notice. "Whatever they do in King's Landing is none of our concern." When Jon did not answer, the old man finished his wine and said, "You're free to go. I'll have no further need of you today. On the morrow you can help me write that letter."

Writing these letters are both framed to Jon and Sansa as ways to save Ned’s life. Which they both want to do. Except what they are really doing is being used to suite others agendas.

Conflicting Loyalties and new families

Cersei tells Sansa she loves her like a daughter. She tells her that Joffrey loves her.

The queen smiled. "I think of you almost as my own daughter. And I know the love you bear for Joffrey." She gave a weary shake of her head.

Jon is comforted by Sam and thinks that his Night’s Watches brothers are as much his brothers as Robb, Bran and Rickon.

“The weirwoods were beyond the Wall, yet he knew Sam meant what he said. They are my brothers, he thought. As much as Robb and Bran and Rickon …”

Sansa’s conflicted loyalty is much clearer to the average fan. And seen by fans as much more problematic. The Lannister’s are the direct enemies of the Starks. Jon’s view that the Night’s Watch is his family will eventually be just as problematic for Jon. Because the Night’s Watch is not in conflict with the Starks there is not the same tension. Though, Jon is just as prevented from joining Robb as Sansa is.

Confinement

Sansa was confined first with Jeyne Poole then by herself. She is kept in a room at the high tower of Maegar’s Holdfast.

“So she went to the queen instead, and poured out her heart, and Cersei had listened and thanked her sweetly … only then Ser Arys had escorted her to the high room in Maegor's Holdfast and posted guards, and a few hours later, the fighting had begun outside.“

Jon acts out after Alister Thorne calls him a traitor’s bastard and tries to pull a dagger on Thorne. This gets him punished and confined to his cell in the Lord Commander’s Tower

“They took his knife and his sword and told him he was not to leave his cell until the high officers met to decide what was to be done with him. And then they placed a guard outside his door to make certain he obeyed. His friends were not allowed to see him, but the Old Bear did relent and permit him Ghost, so he was not utterly alone.”

Stories and Heroes, Fires and the Dead

Sansa’s chapter ends with her back in the room in the high tower of Maegor’s Holdfast. Jeyne Poole is no longer in the room. Sansa is both relieved to be alone and feels colder. She builds a fire pulls down her story books and reads about Florian and Jonquil, Lady Shella and the Rainbow Knight, and of course of Prince Aemon.

“Yet somehow it seemed colder with Jeyne gone, even after she'd built a fire.She pulled a chair close to the hearth, took down one of her favorite books, and lost herself in the stories of Florian and Jonquil, of Lady Shella and the Rainbow Knight, of valiant Prince Aemon and his doomed love for his brother's queen.”

Now that could be the last line of the chapter. However, not to be too obvious we get a bit of information that relates to the previous Arya chapter. Sansa remembers that she did not ask about Arya.

As we are left to feel conflicted about Sansa retreating into her stories and forgetting about her sister. We get Jon’s POV. By the end of his POV, the politics are over. One of the dead men they brought back at the beginning of the chapter comes back to live or is undead and tries to attack Lord Mormont. He kills the guard at Jon’s door leaving Jon free to go and save Lord Mormont. He destroys the wight by tossing burning drapes on them.

First Jon wakes and is cold.

“Yet he was trembling, violently. When had it gotten so cold?”

Then when he goes to investigate and finds the wight he uses the fire.

Spinning, Jon saw the drapes he'd ripped from the window. He flung the lamp into the puddled cloth with both hands. Metal crunched, glass shattered, oil spewed, and the hangings went up in a great whoosh of flame. The heat of it on his face was sweeter than any kiss Jon had ever known. "Ghost!" he shouted.”

Sansa sits by a fire to read her stories one of them being Prince Aemon who loved his sister Queen Nerys. In the next chapter, Jon literally becomes one of those heroes and uses fire to kill a monster.

Bonus thought: ‘sweeter than any kiss Jon had ever known.’ who’s been kissing Jon? That’s a very romantic way to view a near-death experience, Jon Snow.

Much has been talked about Sansa in later books wishing for a hero and believing they are no heroes. Then unbeknownst to her, Jon does something that would make him her hero (e.g. Kill Janos Slynt). Most of their mirroring and parallels are believed to come to the forefront in later books. This is the first time, I realized that it happened so early. Sansa reads her stories and in the next chapter, Jon is killing a monster as if it were right out of Sansa’s stories!!!! It’s an amazing touch.

These two chapters together could be viewed as highlighting their familial connection. They are bookended by Arya’s and Bran’s chapters which are... well... different. The same things just don’t happen to them. While, I think all four chapters relate and flow beautifully together from Sansa remembering she did not ask about Arya, to Jon thinking about both girls and his brothers, Jon’s first run-in with a wight to Bran watching Robb march out and Osha telling him they are marching the wrong way. That they need to be going North to fight the dead.

The Jon and Sansa chapters stick out beyond the familial. They are just so so very similar with the exception of Jon fighting the wright. Even that difference relates back to Sansa’s chapter and her stories. Not only that, these chapters are placed in the middle of the four, grounding the family. Suggesting they will be central to the future of this family. What does this mean? Is it one of the earliest examples of Jonsa foreshadowing? Sure we have “Sansa was radiant” and Sansa’s comment about Jon being jealous. While those are hints and when paired with later foreshadowing make the case for Jonsa. Those small comments looked at individually could be explained away. You can’t explain away two whole chapters structured like this. There is a belief amongst some fans that JonSa did not start to really develop until the end of the second or beginning of the third book. That GRRM planted most of the foreshadowing seeds later. That in the first book perhaps he was still unsure of whether or not Jon and Sansa would be anything more than distant siblings. These two chapters suggest that is not the case. That the seeds were being planted from the beginning. That no matter the many leagues between, no matter the lack of interaction on the page, strip away all that, these two Starklings are sharing the same story.

#jonsa meta #jonxsansa meta #jonxsansa #this meta took longer than i thought #jon snow #sansa stark #a game of thrones #a game of thrones meta #asoiaf meta #jon vii agot #sansa iv agot

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