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spikeinthepunch · 11 months

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spierverse 2 spoilers. but also a long post diving into Villains in recent (animated) movies

i dont rly plan to make any super long posts about all of this movie bc theres just SO much to think abt and a lot of people are saying what i would say. but i have thought a lot about the villain, The Spot. mostly in relation to my last fave animated movie's villains- Puss in Boots 2

PIB got a lot compliments for its villain(s). You had Goldilocks who was an antag but a character you can see some reason to sympathize with, but she isnt the big bad. You have Death who is a conflict to hinder Puss' progress, and then you Jack Horner who is a villain that you have no reason to feel bad for, as its shown many times how he is just a privileged ass. It was a movie that finally really had a bad villain you werent gonna see redeemed, and had no reason to see redeemed. Goldilocks was an antag as she was Puss' enemy but we had no reason to hate her, and her siding with them eventually made sense. Death's conclusion with Puss was less so any end for the Villain's arc but for a personal Arc Puss was facing that drove the main plot.

Many people saw this movie and were pointing out how bad Disney/Pixar's movies have been with villains. I cant even think of any villain in their last movies, theyre all so samey. and a lot are trying to be the same "oh well now you can feel a little bad for them because we showed some sad backstory!". its nice to have some times where theres a complicated grey antagonist that explores the divide in interests and pushes boundaries but thats not what Disney is doing.

Often times, Superhero movies have cut and dried villains. Not bad- its just that there is a formula. You have a guy with a name and a gimmick and they bad, they must be defeated. Even in comics where things get expanded on for backstories, sometimes with troubled pasts etc, it still doesnt change it? They don't get reformed and stop being the villain.

So lets look at the first Spiderverse before 2. Kingpin was the first (major) villain (along with some on the side) and they were established villains. The thing thats important with Kingpin is that while we were given information about why he is doing what hes doing, no one ever finds it as "okay". no one thinks they should just deal with it by fixing him or feeling bad for him, because Kingpin wouldnt take that. He IS awful, hes selfish and terrible. and Nothing he does outside of those personal feelings actually reflects that. Nothing else he normally does as a criminal is related to his family that he lost. These kinds of superhero villains are often already criminals with an intense violent history, and theyll keep being a criminal.

Going to Spiderverse 2, we get a villain thats a bit different, The Spot. Its interesting because he starts goofy- he actually is trying to be a criminal too actually. He decides because of his circumstances, he needs to rob and do things like that and its makes sense, he has no where to go. But hes so confident and normal about it, cocky etc, that you dont feel bad for him. hes not desperate or sad or begging with the weight of his sad backstory. Hes annoying, goofy, and no ones will take him as a serious criminal at first. And then he starts to explain more seriously what happened. And it STILL doesnt come across like a "woe is me" kind of story. He *still* annoying and cocky. he wants to be bad. he wants to destroy everything. Does it suck what happened to him? Yeah. Does it suck that it ruined his life?" of course. Do you want to redeem him? i mean no, i wouldnt. hes still a jerk. and thats the key thing.

you can have a villain who is relatable and grey but its not The Spot. Its not Kingpin. They had some kind of "tragedy" but they arent ever going to be good and you shouldnt use them as aan example and soften them up to be easily digested and garner sympathy with. thats just not the kind of story you can have all the time. you NEED to remind people, mostly kids, who the bad guys are. and the samey bland villains of disney havent stuck in my heads at all in recent years. its not to say their movies were all bad- i liked a lot of them (Encanto, Turning Red). But i can hardly recall any clear "villain" plot lines. Theres a time and place for those vague instances, and many times they just dont work because it makes the whole story so vague and directionless. It makes it hard to remember the key points when its not strong enough from its other elements.

I just feel like we are losing classic villains because people for some reason started to think it was boring and we needed more "nuance" but this "nuance" isnt.....that. its bland written media by big studios that cant actually have morally grey characters because it would actually be too sensitive for people.

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thelegendofclarke · 7 years

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I'm sick of people saying Sansa isn't "Stark enough" Also tired of seeing how headcanoning Sansa (just in my mind/art) as Queen is criminal. My intention isnt to erase other characters. I personally don't care if she is QitN in canon. I'll just be glad if GRRM gives her a decent ending. But only imagining Sansa as Queen surely cant be a crime. Sansa has given me a lot of hope irl; helped me deal w/ depression so wanting her success,happiness rulership even it's cathartic

Hi! QitN Sansa anon here. I just wanted to rectify that the word I wanted to use instead of cathartic was therapeutic. I think they both mean same but I’m not sure. Sorry. English is not my native language and I struggle w/ it. Thanks for understanding.

Hello Anonny!

First of all, please don’t apologize for your English, it is seriously EXCELLENT! It’s probably better than mine tbqh. Secondly, I AM SO SORRY THIS TOOK ME SO LONG TO ANSWER! I have no excuse, I am The Worst.

Getting to the down and dirty of your ask… My dear Anonny, I totally hear you; and if it makes you feel any better, you definitely aren’t alone! Your frustration is honestly one of my main ~grievances~ with fandom and why I honestly having a really hard time engaging with like 85% of the ~meta side~ of fandom. I am in some fandoms, GoT/ASoIaF included, that have some incredibly smart and talented meta writers who are so passionate and hardworking and insightful. The things that they come up with sometimes completely blow me away! It can be easy to fall down the meta rabbit hole and get caught up, especially when people are seeing all these interesting things and coming up with all these amazing and intriguing theories that you NEVER would have thought of. But on the flip side, it can be really frustrating when the meta you are reading just doesn’t resonate with you at all. I mean don’t get me wrong, I am Here for meta as a concept and I usually really love seeing what people come up with. My issue is often in the execution. Sometimes it feels like meta crosses that ~fine line~ between showing you one way to think vs. telling you how to think.

I definitely see the value in discussing different interpretations of stories and characters, and I even enjoy reading most of them. But too often I feel like people forget that meta is still just an interpretation, it’s as though there has become this ~thing~ where calling something meta automatically makes it infallible. But it’s really important to remember that with meta in regards to literature, while it’s generally meant to be an academic and unbiased approach generally, is still just one person’s interpretation of the facts as they see them. Meta has somehow become this competition about Who Is Right and Being the Rightest, and it just completely disregards how inherently subjective and personal fandom is. I will always and forever maintain that is absolutely impossible to be completely objective in fandom; your opinions, your biases, your Faves, are always going to affect your interpretations and and resulting opinions, that’s just human nature. I don’t get this whole demand for objectivity thing; if people were truly objective about fandom, I don’t think we would even be having this discussion, because no one would be discussing much of anything. Yeah, its important to maintain some level of objectivity, especially when you are having discussions with other people about fandom, but tbh being ~completely objective~ all the time sounds pretty boring. Honestly, I feel like most of the time people who claim they are being “totally objective” when they talk about things like character arcs, possible end games, ect. are even less trust worthy than those people who are up front about their favoritism; imo it usually means they are either totally unaware of their own biases, or that they refuse to acknowledge them.

I also feel you on the whole thing of “headcanoning Sansa as QitN is erasing other characters,” it’s frustrating to me as well. Because you’re right, wanting Sansa to be in a leadership role does not automatically mean you are disregarding other characters. Positions like Q/KitN or Lord/Lady of Winterfell are exclusive positions by nature, there are always going to be unequal power dynamics based on that alone. It’s also like you were saying, seeing Sansa in a position of power and leadership role can definitely be cathartic and therapeutic (I think both words work btw!). As a character who has essentially been completely robbed of her agency and self determination and has been at the mercy of others for almost the entire series, it would be extremely satisfying to not only see her regain some of her autonomy, but also be in a position where she could control her own fate. It would also be really satisfying to see a character like Sansa who has had to rely so much on her more feminine, intellectual “soft power” to be in a position where she is clearly powerful in a more traditional, tangible sense. Does she have to be QitN for these things to happen? No, obviously not. But then it also stands to reason that none of the other Stark siblings HAVE to be in that power position to be important either, the same basic logic applies. To say that Sansa fans are “sidelining” or “disregarding” or “erasing” other characters by theorizing or headcanoning that Sansa could be QitN or Lady of Winterfell then means that fans of ANY OTHER CHARACTER who headcanon or theorize about that character holding a position of power in the North are therefore intrinsically sidelining/disregarding/erasing Sansa based on their own argument. Honestly, debating like that sounds tedious and counterproductive and more than a little annoying. Because honestly, it could go on FOREVER, we could be here for the rest of our gd natural born LIVES arguing about this. People are always going to disagree with you, that’s just life. And they are free to do so, just as you are free to disagree with them. But there is a notable difference between disagreement and downright derision; one is totally fine and can be done respectfully, and the other is kind of a dick move.

And also, like I was talking about earlier, our faves are our faves. In fandom, you are allowed to concentrate on YOUR FAVE and their significance and where you see their story going. That is totally and completely 100% legit! Characters like Sansa are very easy to connect to and care about, especially for people who see themselves and their own struggles in her story. And I think the same goes for Arya… They are these two young characters who experience similar trauma and abuse and honestly just horrendous things that no child should ever have to experience, and they deal with it in such vastly different narrative ways. Arya takes action and lashes out and lets herself be sad and angry. Sansa rationalizes and compartmentalizes lies to herself and everyone around her in order to get through the day. Sansa is pretty much a poster child for traditional femininity, while Arya’s character has so much focus on defying gender roles (or disregarding gender completely in the case of the faceless men). Both have their moments of weakness and strength, both have their aptitudes and their flaws. Relating to and connecting with either on a personal level, as is common with fictional characters, is completely possible and understandable. That’s one of the most beautiful things about the Stark Sisters imo, together and separately they appeal to such a wide array of readers.

There is no “wrong way” to fandom, there are no “wrong reasons” to love certain characters or story lines, there is NOTHING wrong with Sansa Stark being your favorite character and caring about what happens to her. And also, probably an ~unpopular opinion~ (but idgaf tbh), there is nothing wrong with caring about Sansa (or any of your faves) more than you care about other characters! It’s natural, you are not doing anything wrong, and your interpretations and opinions are no less valid than anyone else’s. That’s the great thing about fiction, it is literally impossible to have a “wrong” interpretation of a fictional work. You don’t even have to agree with the author to be ~right~ about a work of fiction because according to “death of the author” an author’s intentions and biographical facts should hold no weight in regards to an interpretation of their writing; a writer’s interpretation of his own work is no more or less valid than the interpretations of any given reader. Debate is fine, discussion is cool, dialogue about differences of opinions and interpretation can honestly be awesome. What’s not awesome though, is when people think that their interpretation is not only and absolutely correct one, but the sole correct one. That seems, like, wildly narrow minded and more than a little bit cocky tbh. Fandom isn’t a dictatorship; no one’s interpretations are law that can be enforced, no one’s preferences are superior, no one’s faves are automatically more important, and no one is The Great Supreme Rightest (or whatever a fandom dictator’s title would be idek).

So the point is Anonny, YOU. ARE. VALID. Fandom is all about connecting with a story and it’s characters because they make you feel things. Something or someone in that story made your sweet little anonny (or in my case, cold dead salty) heart fall in love. So just keep fandoming and loving Sansa exactly how you want in a way that makes you happy!

(And on a totally mature, adult end note: fuck people who say Sansa isn’t Stark enough, what ever the hell that even means!? They are just jealous they don’t look that Boss 👏 Ass 👏 Bitch 👏 decked out in furs like a badass Northern Lady Pimp! QUEEN SANSA OF THE HOUSE SNARK, FIRST OF HER NAME!!!)

#I AM SO SORRY THIS TOOK SO LONG!#i hope it helps though!#and i hope you are feeling better!#you are welcome in my inbox or PM anytime dear anon #sansa stark #meta #anti meta #(i guess? kind of?)#more like meta wary #or cautiously and selectively pro meta #aly answers #anonymous

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