#lyanna isn't faultless

[katshuya]

Rhaegar's wife, who had delicate health, gave him two children. One caused her to be bedridden for half a year and another that he impregnated her with during her recovery or, immediately after and almost killed her, deserved that crown.

Yes she deserved it more than Lyanna Stark who braverly defended her father's bannerman yet impulsively and naively when there was a well known mad king watching and entered as a mystery knight that grabbed everyone's curiosity for being unknown.

Elia Martell, who endured Rhaegar, his prophecy, racist people, and their opinion about how unworthy she was for him AND his racist, mad cruel father desrved respect as well as that crown.

Yet she was gifted with humiliation one after another after all that she sacrificed.

This will trigger many. But that crown was Elia's right after all the hell this strong woman had been through. Not Lyanna's. Yet, in the narrative, it is all about Lyanna and the winter rose.

Rhaegar only endangered Lyanna, and even if Aerys and Lyanna's family and betrothed weren't there, it was still Elia's right.

Honoring Lyanna could have been done more respectfully and wiser, yet it was extremely dumb and cruel.

Yet the audacity to put Elia in such a humiliating situation

She deserves more respect and attention from GRRM, which I doubt he will grant her any true respect.

Elia was killed for the sake of the narrative. So the promised one can happen. She was used and then killed in an unnecessary way for it.

What even happened to Elia's body along with her children's? Definitely weren't sent to Dorne. While we know Rhaegar's was burnt and Lyanna's in winterfell.

If George wanted us to like the Rhaegar x lyanna thing, then he failed miserably. For sane people, of course.

This will always be where he failed the writing.

We hear of Lyanna's suffering in the books, and how she was killed to bring important child for the future of the realm and its safety yet we barely hear of Elia's, who gave and suffered much, much more.

I like the Starks, but this is where George crossed the line with his favoursim.

She is barely there in the narrative, yet her story and the things she had been through and everything associated with her upbringing make her more interesting character than Rhaegar or Lyanna to me and many people.

I believe George unintentionally made her more interesting to many of us when he wanted us to care for Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Edit: I'm talking about the crown, not the winter rose itself. Since some Rx L shippers entered the asks and were acting so unruly like usual.

#asoiaf #elia martell #anti rhaegar x lyanna #anti rhaegar #game of thrones #lyanna stark #elia deserves better #rhaegar targaryen #lyanna isn't faultless #a song of ice and fire

[katshuya]

No matter what George does. No matter if he twisted it into "Elia was ok and never felt humiliated nor used, and the Martells didn't mind what Rhaegar did" or if George decided never to talk about Elia. R x L will always be disgusting and not a tragic love story.

Any sane human being can see that.

Even in a creepy scenario where she was ok with it OR one where she didn't love Rhaegar, he will always be to blame, and he still used her.

That's why the R x L stans always try to either ignore her existence or reduce it into nothing and her into some kind of supernatural alien human that is ok with everything dirty done to her.

Because they know their oh so tragic, self insert true love story will always seem disgusting because of Elia's existence in the story.

No amount of excuses or fanarts will ever change this truth. No matter which characters George will make accepting and supporting of them (Ned, Arthur, Oberyn, Doran, Ashara, Lewyn and even Elia herself....ect). Why? Because it's unrealistic.

Even if R and L's were running away from Aerys, then suddenly *accidentally* saw a prophecy or fell in love.

OR Even if George made it that Rhaegar wouldn't have left her if she had been able to give him another child. It doesn't change that he abandoned her and their children in the worst way possible with no protection against Aerys and his loyal kingsguard. And even then, it's hard to believe she'd accept just because he told her : Hey, I see in my dreams that I have to have 3 children or we all die. Like, what is this? She almost died for that, no thanks to you and your one after another impregnation.

It's disgusting and not well-written at all.

That's just the plain truth.

That's why a huge part of the fandom dislikes it. Not because they "didn't read the books" or "they lack critical thinking".

It's actually because they know how to think instead of inserting themselves as not like other girls girl and shipping themselves with terrible husband and father, charismatic depressed prince charming.

Poor Rhaegar had a sense of doom following him and knew he'd die soon so Elia let him be? That's very idiotic.

No. Elia being fine with annulment or polygamy isn't normal unless she is forced to. And you know it.

#anti Rhaegar #elia martell #asoiaf #anti rhaegar x lyanna #game of thrones #elia deserves better #lyanna stark #rhaegar targaryen #lyanna isn't faultless #a song of ice and fire #grrm critical #Anti GRRM

[katshuya]

If Elia and lyanna's positions were reversed

If Rhaegar left his willful, tomboyish, and not like other girl wife for assumingly more feminine, Elia, would the reaction be the same?

Would R x L shippers say it's not their fault and we shouldn't blame R or E because R's marriage was forced to Lyanna?

That we just hate Elia being a girl who chooses who she wants to be with?

Or was it going to be a man who can't bear a woman being independent and strong and feeling challenged because Lyanna has a strong personality?

Would they say that Lyanna wouldn't mind as long as her child is heir and she gets to be queen and get rid of her jerk husband? or would it be humiliating for her?

Or maybe they would say Lyanna wouldn't mind because she is Brandon's sister as Elia is Oberyn's sister, and she is too independent her rough northern self doesn't care if her husband left her ? since she absolutely doesn't love him and because complicated relationships mean zero attraction/love and zero attempts to love each other

Would they say that it is alright because Rhaegar and Elia can be together? or are they going to blame Elia's Dornish nature for thinking she can be with a married man because she sees nothing is wrong with having bastards nor being with a married man? Are they not going to slut shame Elia?

Would they blame Lyanna's impulsive and more tough self for Rhaegar leaving her? like how it's justified that since Elia isn't as fiery or healthy as Lyanna for Rhaegar to leave her? or would they blame Elia for seducing Rhaegar with her more feminine and more allegedly submissive AND her seductive Dornish nature?

Would they write fanfiction about how Rhaegar prefers more feminine delicate desert flower than willful impulsive winter rose like how they do with Elia? Or maybe in their fanfictions, Elia's thrones would represent the stings she caused for Lyanna?

Would they accept the North not being angry and hateful with the Targaryens like how the Dornish shouldn't because the Dornish understand true love and don't mind mistresses or second wives at all in all scenarios?

Would people think Elia was kidnapped and raped? or are they going to be sure that it was consensual since Elia was adult and the sterotypical seductive Dornish, who doesn't mind mistresses and taking married man as lover?

Would they be it's fine because True Love! ? Or would they be furious for Lyanna because she helped and gave Rhaegar everything only to end up overshadowed by Elia?

Would they accept it if George's made it thay Lyanna was fine with Rhaegar having Elia because Lyanna was forced to marry Rhaegar and she and him have a very understanding paltonic love to the point Lyanna care not for her dignity nor all that she gave because she only cares for her child to be king and herself to be queen? Maybe Arthur Dayne, the knight who took his vows seriously, would break them to be Lyanna's lover in this scenario, so everything is ok?

Would they doubt that Rhaella ever cared deeply for Lyanna and Ashara was actully never close to her and just one of many handmaidens, as they do with Elia? Would they say it is because Lyanna is so minor and just a plot device for the North to hate the Lannisters, like how they did this with Elia and Dorne?

Or perhaps Lyanna would be fine because she wants Elia too?

Would the fandom be as apologic with Elia as they are with Lyanna in case she eloped willingly and say that she was totally faultless? and shouldn't be held accountable because of "girl's girl" and "don't put woman against woman," so no accountability? Or that Elia was manipulated by Rhaegar?

And Rhaegar, would the fandom see him as blameless/not that guilty as they see him when he left Elia? Would they also sympathize with the melancholic prince and say: let the poor man have a break and be with his true love! ?

is it a work of art and star-crossed lovers between Rhaegar and Elia in their eyes now? And as someone said, a progressiveness?

Or Would they criticize George for doing this to the cool willful not like other girls Lyanna?

Anyone associated with polygamous culture knows how unrealistic it is for Elia to accept a second wife without being upset about it and has no other choice. And we all know that most will not just be unbothered by it. Women in polygamous/polymorous culture do/would not simply accept it, and when they do, they aren't happy and ok with it. We are humans, and the Dornish are humans, too.

That's just in George's head.

#asoiaf #elia martell #game of thrones #anti rhaegar #anti rhaegar x lyanna #elia deserves better #rhaegar targaryen #lyanna stark #lyanna isn't faultless #a song of ice and fire #anti rhaelya #anti r x l #anti rhaelya stans #GRRM critical

[katshuya]

cheating is a thing in Westeros, sono, Rhaegar isn't that bad in the characters' eyes when it's a common thing, and no, he didn't cheat. Elia was Dornish, and it's in their tradition, so she would accept it. And that makes Rhaegar much less guilty in Elia's eyes.

As for the favoring Lyanna over

Elia...well, the truth is Lyanna is the prophecy woman just as Rhaellaonce was. She plays a role in savingWesteros with Jon. She did more likable and attention attracting things like fighting against injustices while Elia only brithed children for the prophcey that ended up not related to the prophecy.

So, it is a normal reaction. Lyanna actually did something.

If Aegon is going to be alive, then he will not be important like Jon nor as honorable or good-hearted. He'll be Daenerys' enemy.

As for the pesants' deaths, they were for the greater good. Cruel but inevitable. But I agree some of them were unnecessary like Rhaegar's children, BUT they had nothing to do with Rhaegar or lyanna. I guess the author is trying to say that the prophecy children should come from only certain people, and Elia, unfortunately for her, stood in the way of the prophecy.

It may seem unfair, but that is the world of the AOIAF.

If Elia should accept her kingdom's tradition about *cheating* as you put it and had absolutely no problem with it (even though Arianne threatened Arys, Lord Yournword fought Oberyn. Oberyn never married, so he doesn't stay committed to someone, Doran married for love and stayed single afterwards.) then Lyanna had no right to complain about Robert's outside of marriage sexual activities and should have carried on with marrying him. Since cheating a tradition in Westeros.

Do you even hear yourself?

The normal reaction for you is that Lyanna escapes Robert and choses a married man but Elia should accept being abandoed for someone else after all she sacrificed?

You are sick. You are so passive-aggressive against a woman who gave everything for that nasty prophecy that you claim to be more important than thousands of deaths. A woman who paid a very high prince for Rhaegar's pitiful desires, Lyanna, to be free from Robert,Aerys madness and Tywin's grudge only to be raped and killed with her children's blood on her.

You are sick for thinking the prophecy justifies anything. Or that Rhaegar and Lyanna were heros.

Elia didn't stand in the way of the prophecy. She is standing in the way of your ugly and nasty ship.

You are trying to act logical and calm when you are just mad.

I'm not sure what else Elia should do to look as cool as perfect saint lyanna the good in your eyes.

Defy Rhaegar and refuse to give him children so she doesn't risk her life?

You would have said it's her fault that Rhaegar left her because she didn't give him what he needed, and Lyanna so perfectly was ready to give them to him.

You are just dying to prove their actions that lead to thousands of deaths as heroic. You have the same mindest as war criminals.

You need help. I'm serious.

#anti rhaegar #anti rhaegar x lyanna #lyanna isn't faultless #elia deserves better #rhaegar targaryen #elia martell #lyanna stark #asoiaf #game of thrones

[katshuya]

wtf

elua did not deserve the winter rose crown at all!! it belongs to queen Lyanna Stark! your fake princess exists just to get between the best ship like the brown whore she is. there is no mention of flowers and elus in same sentence yet i see you fans draw her with flowers that rightfully belong to queen Lyanna. shows how desperate your side are. elia never lifted a finger to save even herself much less anyone else. why should she get crown over Lyanna, when flowers as motif belong to Lyanna (and Arya, yet sandra fans keep using it too in fake ugly arts).

Do you see this shit, people?

I love how they expose their true colors while hiding who they are.

The obvious hate for Elia in their posts as they pretend to try to give her identity by saying she only cared about becoming Queen and her son the next king while also saying Ashara probably loved more lyanna and was simply just one of many handmaidens for Elia and Rhaella probably wasn't close to Elia.

Yes, winter rose is lyanna's. I was talking about the crown, you idiot. So what? It doesn't change the fact that even your oh so great self insert, not like other girls character was reduced to glorified womb. Greenseer or not. With Rhaegar's love or not. It's not pretty at all.

But I guess that means nothing to you compared to screwing Rhaegar in your imagination.

Elia wasn't able to save herself, no thanks to your stupid prince charming, but your dear lyanna didn't save herself either. In fact, Rhaegar is also to blame for what happened to her, as well as she was complicit in her fate, too.

Elia will always exist to show how much this ship is disgusting, selfish, and cruel. That's why you are so angry. Otherwise, why did you say Elia was there just to get in between your self insert perfect ship where Rhaegar is in love with you?

You all know it shows the ugliness of this ship. Oh, sorry! I mean the GrEYnEss.

You want to blame someone and then blame the author.

Because Elia being there shows not only Rhaegar as a selfish monster but it doesn't paint lyanna as a nice girl at all if she went willingly no matter how much GRRM would talk about what a lovely winter rose she was. Age can excuse actions to how far?

Get out and touch a grass. How long can this fantasy of special oh so different girl swinging sword and making most handsome men fall for her and other girls jealous of her could continue to please you? If anything, it's making you mad because of how badly written it is.

A reminder, Sansa is Arya's sister, you ugly heart. I doubt your Arya would be happy reading what you wrote.

#anti rhaegar #elia martell #anti rhaegar x lyanna #lyanna isn't faultless #game of thrones #lyanna stark #rhaegar targaryen #elia deserves better #a song of ice and fire #anti grrm #anti rhaelya stans #anti rhaelya

[katshuya]

Did you guys know?

We make up things about Rhaegar because we remember that boyfriend that left us for another girl during high school.

Most of what we say about him is made up.

He isn't half as bad as we make him to be.

The E-R-L situation isn't ridiculous, frustrating, and unlikable at all.

We just twist things.

We just want Elia to be victim.

It's not Rhaegar's fault. It was very unpredictable what happened.

So what if he left his family for more than a year during rebellion? He had a valid reason. Perhaps Aerys was after him? So, of course, he has to leave his family in Dragonstone, which is a very safe place from a Targaryen king who hates you btw.

Ravens just gone extinct at that time, too.

Why can't we just accept that Elia was a cool woman who cared only to be queen and her son heir even though she was bedridden for half a year and almost died in childbirth? That, as well as R x L, are very progressive.

I mean how do you know Ashara was even Elia's friend? She has to care more about lyanna because she loved one of her brothers.

And Rhaella, how do you know she even liked Elia that much? Probably was happy that her son chased after his true love.

You see how it is actually us who reduces Elia into a silly victim girl? The RxL fans just want to give her more identity....even though they say she is nothing above plot device that cared not at all about the humiliation and how her husband left her for another and Ashara and Rhaella probably weren't that close to her.

All the things they say make perfect sense, not stupid and not trying to reduce Elia for Lyanna's sake and to make Rhaegar look less guilty. Not at all.

We even blame him more than Tywin and Gregor. Even though Tywin and Gregor's accountability isn't even an argument, and they weren't the ones who were married to Elia yet so stupidly put her in such disgusting and dangerous situations.

Poor Prince charming.....it's all because of that damned boyfriend we all once had. So twisted and stupid.

Yeah 😂

#anti Rhaegar #elia martell #game of thrones #asoiaf #anti rhaegar x lyanna #elia deserves better #lyanna stark #rhaegar targaryen #lyanna isn't faultless #a song of ice and fire

[katshuya]

Imagine when Elia heard Rhaegar died and the rebells were coming toward her and her children because Rhaegar left her on Dragonston, which is a very safe place from a Targaryen king who hates you btw! Did he even leave her there for safety, or was it just simply her home and he just left?

Now I want you to imagine what went through her when Rhaenys and Aegon got killed after Rhaegar told her about the prophecy and how they were two of the heads and sacrifices are necessary for the realm to survive latet and thus she sacrificed her life to give him Aegon after Rhaenys immediately.

Imagine her feelings and thoughts as she was violated after trusting Rhaegar (in a scenario where she not so happily agreed for him to presuade lyanna because of the prophecy)

It was all for naugh

And Rhaegar? Probably whispered Lyanna's name as he died, worried about her instead of the children he doomed by his idiocy because poor him was melancholic his whole life because of his birth and dragondreams, and lyanna is the only person who brought him joy! Let the man have some joy for once!

Still, how stupid and ignorant of us to say Rhaegar is to blame, no?

#Anti Rhaegar #lyanna isn't faultless #Elia desrves better #ASOIAF #game of thrones #elia martell #Rhaegar Targaryen #anti rhaegar x lyanna #anti r x l #anti Rhelya

[katshuya]

I'm sure I'm not the only one who is astonished with the very clever arguments and discussions Rhaelya's supporters write and the oh so-called neutrals who are just TOO LOGICAL to blame Rhaegar. He is just a grey character, and we just lack criticism.

How? Well!

Rhaegar isn't to blame because in a dream, he and other kingsguard said it was Jaime's fault. You see how logical it is? The author hints it, so it's the logic truth.

Jaime is the real reason why Elia and her children are dead because he was a kingsguard and being the single sole protector of Elia and her children against his father's army means nothing. Apparently, he can hold them all off with a single command.

Dragonstone is very safe from Aerys even though he is the king, and with single command, they could be brought to him.

Rhaegar took all kingsguard to the Trident because it was war. And in war, you need to win, so you take every knight to assure your winning and leave your family guarded with a single knight who is also under pressure of obeying the king and even if he didn't he is still outnumbered and could be killed or held off.

We can't blame Rhaegar for abandoning them in kingslanding. Why? Because he thought he was going to win! He had a plan. You see?!

And we can't blame him for the rebellion. Why? Because in a different scenario in my mind, it could have been sparked by someone else in different ways! So we can't blame the people responsible for the original scenario.

Anything George says or thinks is the right and logical one, and we can't criticize it for being ridiculous. Because the writer is always right about what he writes. I mean, so what if he thinks dany x drogo was hella sexy? We should think it so, too!

Daemon killing his wife is grey morality.

And many other things, he says, but let's not get into that for now.

So yes. If George says something is logical, then it's logical.

It's very natural for Elia not to feel sad or humiliated when Rhaegar goes to another girl, especially after endangering her life to give him the prophecy children one after another. Her PaLAtOnIC feelings toward him made her ready to risk her life in that certain way. One after another when she had delicate health. She endangered herself with no rest between pregnancies because of these PALATONIC feelings! She wanted to be queen, which is what made her do that, too. There is absolutely no way for her to be hurt. That's just ilogical. Especially for a Dornish.

I read a post from a proclaimed neutral, and oh my god. I just don't understand the ability of these people to write these posts and not feel embarrassed with how logical and unbiased they are.

Let me tell you something. Someone who claims logic will not say Rhaegar never hurt Elia with Lyanna and/or she was totally fine with it.

That's a covered lie. They just like Rhaegar way more than Elia. Not necessary a stan. Simply like him and want others to believe in that supposed logic.

#anti rhaegar #anti rhaegar x lyanna #anti rhaelya stans #game of thrones #elia martell #lyanna isn't faultless #rhaegar targaryen #asoiaf #elia deserves better #a song of ice and fire #lyanna stark #anti grrm #grrm critical #grrm criticism

[katshuya]

When I read Rhaelya's stans take on how much we who talk about Elia are so awful for making Elia nothing but a victim when she was definitely more than that, I feel like vomiting.

How selfish, cruel, and pitiful can a person be?

Because when you ask them what Elia could have possible been the answer is always either whoring around or was too awesome and progressive to care at all for how she was used as baby machine because she was going to be Queen and she wanted to stabilize her position.

And that appearantly a very cool personality and characterization.

I know a lot of people have no brain, but sometimes, heart and humanity help.

But I guess it's nothing compared to getting smooched by a man who left his family in danger for more than a year while he was having joy at a tower he named Joy.

Like I get it. You can't get prince charming out of your head but why not stay silent and just dream about it or go to talk to him in bots instead of telling the world of how cruel, jealous and nasty you can be because you don't want anyone to stand between you and your fictional perfect man? Why can't you like your awful man in silence without degrading Elia and hiding behind the perfect logic fan facade?

Why is being cruel and jealous is the only way about it? Why can't you like him like a normal person?

Disgusting. You really have no reason to do that.

#elia martell #anti rhaegar #anti rhaegar x lyanna #lyanna isn't faultless #anti rhaelya stans #lyanna stark #rhaegar targaryen #elia deserves better #a song of ice and fire #game of thrones #asoiaf

[katshuya]

Many people like to say Elia and Arthur had something going on either

1-to justify Rhaegar x Lyanna

2-to give some joy to her story.

But honestly, how good can it be? I mean, ship what you want, but I'm talking about that if we imagined it to be a CANON thing, it wouldn't be pleasant due to the events surrounding the canon scenario.

Arthur abandoned her. You can't tell me that a love story with a man who abandons you to help your husband cheat is a great one even if you didn't like your husband. It is still unnerving for the woman.

Yes, I do wish his sad smile is out of guilt for what happened to Elia and her children but still in Jaime's fever dream it was only Rhaegar and Lewyn that talked about Elia and the children.

Arthur talked about killing the king.

I'm not saying this doesn't mean he didn't regret what happened to them. I'm saying it doesn't encourage the idea that there was anything between them. Which is what I want. Because this will be disgusting of GRRM to do to justify what has been done to her.

Elia went as a child on a tour to Starfall. Perhaps she could have been matched with Arthur, but most likely his older brother. Since she was the princess, it was only normal to look for the firstborn child who would become lord one day.

Whatever happened in Starfall didn't end up in any agreement since Elia's mother tried after that to match her with Jaime.

What we know is that in the end, Elia likes Baelor Hightower the most during that tour.

And why didn't Arthur just stay with Elia instead of becoming a kingsguard before her marriage if there was anything truly between them? It doesn't make sense. Are you telling me he abandoned her for kingsguard as tennagers? Or that he decided to fall in love with her after he became a kingsguard? Still no sense.

Also, I firmly believe and I could be wrong that Arthur's character will be that he was not the type to break his oath easily to love a woman. I have feeling he was a hardass. Jon Connington already hinted that. Besides, he was described as someone who took his vows seriously.

Again, I don't mind the shipping nor the fanfictions. Some fanarts are really cute, and I admit I read some and enjoyed it.

But in the CANON scenario, how much better was he than Rhaegar toward Elia? The best scenario would be that he wanted to return but couldn't because Rhaegar's place would be discovered in a case where Rhaegar only ran to save lyanna, then *accidentally* decided to take things further.

Besides, why would Rhaegar let Elia have a secret lover when he will be one day a king? This will affect him as a king in the eyes of the noble men. Why would Elia or Arthur risk that, too?

And even if they were star-crossed lovers that can only love each other from afar....doesn't the "my best friend is married to the woman I love and is having children with her one after another despite her delicate health but he is a good man who will take good care of her" sounds awful?

Why would Arthur be liked as a lover in the CANON scenario where he let Rhaegar harm Elia after using her to the point that she could die if she got pregnant again then he let Rhaegar humilate her again with Lyanna all so Rhaegar might agree that he can be with Elia???

He sounds too lame like this. Ok, grey, but extremely lame man and character. Too lame for that great swordman.

Yes, the characters are supposed to be grey, but honestly, how are we supposed to like something unlikable? Just because it's grey doesn't mean it's likable. Arthur isn't supposed to be a horrible man as far as I glimpsed.

I mean, Euron, for example, is supposed to be a horrible, cruel man, and we are supposed to like him as a horrible, cruel character.

But things like, Rhaegar is supposed to be likable as good grey character when he did certain things that normally for many humans they make him unlikable or R x L is supposed to be likable despite all the things of how they came to be. All feel unlikable because of the contradiction. It's not about greyness. They just don't match their intended purpose of view.

It's like the famous saying of "Daemon is so grey that he is between good and bad. And his morals are so grey"

Seriously, this guy has a very dark shade.

I'm not team black nor team green, so don't come to fight. I only observe the characters.

So what is there to be liked about this ship IN THE CANON scenario? Not in fanfictions where he actually returned or refused leaving her.

If there is anything I would like to know. Do tell me.

I prefer Arthur to be regretful about how he abandoned his princess and her children greyness. This seems more likable grey than lame Arthur, who left the woman he loves to Rhaegar's whims THEN abandoned her and her children alone for almost 2 years in danger to help her husband humiliate her further for prophecy and his not like other girls 15 years old girl, dark lame greyness. The previous makes Arthur more likable as character.

Again, I don't mind the ship as long as it is not Canon. Because it will be a disgusting way that shows Rhaegar as less guilty in the eyes of many just because she loved another, so he looks less accountable for abandoning them. When even in such a cringy scenario, he is not. Even if Elia loved another/didn't love him.

In conclusion, all of the above is why Arthur can not be used to justify R X L nor to make Elia's story better or less sad in the CANON events. And why it's not realistic and impossible that DORNISH Elia committed treason and very unlikely that she had even an emotional affair.

#elia martell #asoiaf #anti rhaegar x lyanna #game of thrones #anti rhaegar #elia deserves better #lyanna isn't faultless #rhaegar targaryen #a song of ice and fire #anti arthur dayne #arthur dayne #grrm criticism #grrm critical #anti grrm

[katshuya]

Rhaenys Targaryen and her father Rhaegar Targaryen

Some R x L fans might tell you that Rhaenys never hated Rhaegar and that you are delusional to include this in fanfictions. Well, ...use this, guys 🧠.

Believe me, you aren't making a great point or great discovery or even the slightest bright argument.

We do know Rhaenys never hated Rhaegar. She was THREE!

She barely started getting consciousness of her surroundings, and she barely understood what was going on.

Considering: Rhaegar spent a year or more than a year away from her life having joy at a tower, he named joy while Rhaenys was having rebells marching toward her and WINNING and mad grand daddy near her and who knows before how many weeks he spent away sulking in summerhall? This means he didn't spend that much time with her.

This gives us three important conclusions

1- She never was old enough nor had the time to know him or what he did

2- They didn't spend that great amount of father/ daughter time as the RxL shippers claim.

3- He probably talked to her before going to battle (that he didn't go to until he was required in a war he triggered) and explained that his absence is for the GReatER GOod and that he was going away again to protect her that's why she hid under his bed.

So yes, in a scenario where she lived, she isn't going to clap for him and Lyanna with Elia for their TRUE LOVE and be with supposed polygamous marriage of her father nor the supposed annulment with her mother when she grows up. That's not how human beings function, and you know it. So yes, it's very obvious that it's very expected that she ends up in a strained father/daughter relationship with him, nor she is going to call Lyanna Mommy! Omg stop it!🤣🤣🤣.

But I bet all of you RxL shippers will keep saying that there was no way she would be hurt or annoyed by him or Lyanna. Or else how can you feel your self insert lyanna x Rhaegar is any cool and acceptable? How can you smooch Rhaegar without feeling horrible?

Or are you going to claim her Dornish blood is going to make her approve and support this, too? I wouldn't be surprised.😂

So yes, we didn't say the three years old girl who hid under her father's bed hated him back then. We said from a normal human standpoint that it's very possible that she ends up deattatched from him .

#asoiaf #game of thrones #anti rhaegar x lyanna #anti rhaegar #elia martell #elia deserves better #lyanna isn't faultless #Rhaenys Targaryen #lyanna stark #anti rhaelya

[katshuya]

Does anyone feel that Arthur Dayne would be more likable as long as we don't know much about certain things about him? I have bad feelings about this "perfect" knight and his sad smile and voice

I'm not saying he is bad or uninteresting here or will not be charismatic. I know he will be charming, but he isn't what his reputation nor the flower talk we read of him in the books just like Rhaegar. At least from our Pov, not George's.

And before anyone says he is grey... every human being is grey, not just George's character. Still, we like some and dislike others even when their shade is less dark because of certain traits or actions.

Like he was an "honorable" fool, but not in the same way as people tend to see Ned. I also believe he helped Rhaegar not just out of sense of duty but their friendship.

I'm talking in case of a scenario where Rhaegar truly eloped with lyanna from the beginning as planned and Arthur was on board.

Let's hope not even though I don't trust GRRM at all.

Honestly, I used to like Arthur.

#and when he finally betrayed them it was not where it should have been #either an idiot like Rhaegar or too bound to his loyalty toward Rhaegar #game of thrones #anti rhaegar #elia martell #asoiaf #elia deserves better #anti rhaegar x lyanna #lyanna isn't faultless #Arthur Dayne #anti Arthur Dayne

[katshuya]

I always thought that my first post or the post about if Elia and Lyanna's positions were reversed would get many hates and fights. It turned out the winter rose crown.

Now everyone is suffering.

To the anon who keeps entering Elia's support blogs. Neither Elia nor Lyanna haunts the narrative as much as you haunt our inboxes.

Refrain from humiliating yourself farther. You really need to calm down.

This feels like a troll.

I don't know if I should laugh or feel sorry for the others.

#anti rhaelya stans #anti Rhaegar #elia martell deserves better #lyanna isn't faultless

[katshuya]

Your thought process is genuinely so fascinating, it makes me want to plop the two overused neurons that bounce in your head under a microscope.

I opened the ask for these responses. I've been waiting for so long for someone to do this since I started posting as I used to watch others get them and laugh but it's better when it's directed to me, it was worth the wait. Thank you! You don't know how much I appreciate it. 😂

#asoiaf #elia martell #anti rhaegar #anti rhaegar x lyanna #lyanna isn't faultless #no I don't hate her and still blame her #lyanna stark #elia deserves better #anti Rhaelya fans

[katshuya]

Lyanna Stark carries some blame too!

Warning: This is not to hate on her, nor I'm denying that she was a young girl and to some degree MAY have been fooled. This is about accountability first and second her genius fans and the shippers

I literally talked to several people here who ships her with Rhaegar and they were ones who have posts that have most likes over discussions about them as I have seen so far and very clever takes that break down every argument as other Rhaegar and Lyanna fans claim. And I swear to god the amount of cope and stupid theories they say is ridiculous. Like all long posts and literally nothing!

My only regret is how I didn't take screenshots of their very clever arguments. All of them ended up deleting my comments when they couldn't reply and was hurt by me saying that Rhaegar could have very possibly liked Elia in Romantic way to some extent and that copmplex realtionship doesn't necessarily mean there was no love or attraction.

Apparently now we are liars and don't care about Elia and just want to shit on Rhaegar and Lyanna and if we truly liked her we'd want her to be a woman who never loved Rhaegar at all.

Not even a little feeling to the man, she agreed to risk her life for him and his prophecy no. We should say according to them that she did that to stabilize her position as future queen and mother of the next heir who eats, drinks and sleeps peacefully and that is more feminist as they MOCKED than her being hurt by Rhaegar (Rhaegar who is said to be very charming to all women but apparently he never charmed Elia according to their little hearts that refuse to accept there might have been something of romance between her and Rhaegar) .

Them: Like, what do you mean she would mind seeing her husband love another girl more after she did everything for him?😡 That's very not good interpretation and characterization of Elia. She should only care about her position! oh! She is the victim of her mother's AMbiTIOns

AND! Her liking Rhaegar and risking her life to give him children makes her weak!

Trasnslation: I can't accept her liking Rhaegar, or this will make the asshole prince I ship myself with as a self-insert of Lyanna more asshole and unlikable to others So Elia must never like Rhaegar in order for my ship to work! Let's work hard on making people believe this is the only possible scenario AND the only way for Elia to be strong good character otherwise she is weak silly girl if she loved her charismatic husband so my ship can sail!

That's the true strong woman and we Elia-fans are just bunch of haters and don't really like her and we are the actual misogynist for not saying she never liked Rhaegar and for not loving their GIrl BoSS lyanan stark.

No, I don't ship Rhaegar and Elia. I'm just stating a very possible scenario. I really don't do ships. I simply like Elia.

As for Lyanna....

Yes, Lyanna carries some blame, too, in case she knew of Rhaegar's plan and agreed to it and went willingly. You don't get to tell me that I shouldn't blame her because most blame falls on men and she was young?????

Like make it make sense. To what extent could your age protect you from accountability when you hurt others? Since when being young gives you the right to escape accountability? How else do you make sure that they don't turn out nasty?

Her escaping Robert and her eloping with married man EVEN in a scenario where Elia agreed are two different things that don't connect. (Elia would never agree happily. In such a scenario, she has no choice because of the prophecy.), it doesn't delete her mistakes. It simply makes her less guilty.

Reminder! She didn't escape until Rhaegar appeared. This may mean she never intended to escape until she fell in love with this married charismatic prince charming even in a scenario where she was a greenseer and saw her and Rhaegar are a MUst Be. They still ignored many things like others' safety for unsure prophecy.

Her story is so much more than just her age.

You all just ignore everything to make her look like nothing but a victim.

I had one tell me we shouldn't blame her because of the girl's girl and because men take most blame in her story??? Yes, they do, and??? Is that how we deal with women's mistakes now? As long as the biggest culprit is a man and you are young, you are free from accountability?

If this is what a girl's girl means now, then I'm not a girl's girl.

And guess what? Yes, I blame her to some degree and don't hate her. Yes, I definitely don't see her as likable but definitely not evil, and I know many of you don't accept these things mixed, but like or not they do with me and with many others who are silent about it because they don't want to be called ridiculous for disliking young girl. But not me. I don't mind.

#anti Rhaegar #I don't hate Lyanan but I will not act like she is nothing but a poor victim because of her age #Lyanna stark isn't faultless #anti Rhaegar x Lyanna #anti R x L #ASOIAF #Elia deserves better #game of thrones #Rhaegar x Elia #Rhaegar Targaryen #lyanna stark #Elia Martell