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#kinnporsche speculation
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Kinnporsche and the allegory
of Siamese fighting fish
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On episode 12 Korn, who has many hobbies, was observing, nay inspecting, his two red and blue Siamese fighting fish in two separate slim aquariums. Judging with the appearances of the fish they are undoubtedly male.
If you once owned a beautiful shiny Siamese fighting fish or a betta you know that these fish are kinda aggressive to one another. You don’t put two male Siamese fighting fish in one tank. You don’t put two female ones because one of them would be bullied. Also it is not advisable to put these little beauties in a bowl. They need a huge tank to swim around.
It is interesting that Korn, whose cunningness reminds me of Pope Alexander VI, the patriarch of the famous Spanish-Italian family the Borgias, whose own evilness and his own two children (Cesare and Lucrezia), rumoured or not, brought prestige , wealth and suffering to his family. Michael Corleone once mentioned him off “Godfather III” when he forbade his daughter, played by Sofia Coppola, to have a relationship with her cousin, played by Andy Garcia.
Going back to Korn’s bettas, on episode 14, the two fish are now housed in two bowls next to each other.
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Korn now oversees and controls Kinn and Porsche moving in their bubble, in their calculated small world Korn has a hand on. With Porsche and Porchay’s alive mother as a leverage, who he holds “imprisoned” in a beautiful part of his mansion, away from the world, Porsche is literally under his thumb.
Korn loves to pit his own sons against the children of his own siblings. The fish symbolise them.
The question remains and, probably, the premise of the season 2 is: will Porsche break away with the help of Pete and Vegas?
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domsaysstuff · 2 years
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Korn and the art of learning through the mistakes of others.
My brain is going crazy rn and i don't know if it's my lack of sleep or am I having intellectual™ thoughts about the gay mafia show again but I have been thinking about Korn after the finale a lot(as we all have been doing). But especially about Korn and his father and Namphung.
At the day that Porsche's father is killed, Korn's father is accused of murdering Namphung's whole family and then taking her under his wing.
I will not go as to why would Korn's father saved Namphung, but I will go into what he wanted from taking her in and he failed doing and what Korn actually succeeded in doing with Porsche by improving on his father's methods.
The Big Theerapanyakul, let's call him Big T, obviously wanted Namphung loyalty. He raised her after all and took her under his wing. He expected her to come back on his call.
But he hadn't succeeded. He didn't have her loyalty, she left the mafia, she got married to someone and cut all the ties and she didn't want to come back to that world.
Big T wasn't successful.
But Papa Korn?
Student Beats his Master.
And Korn apparently was a very good student.
But why did he succeed in trapping Porsche in this life while Big T failed with Namphung?
It's because Big T murdered Namphung's whole family, she didn't had any stakes when leaving other than her life and that was practically unimportant anyway. She had no chains in the form of loved ones when she was leaving.
Loved ones as a leverage.
And Korn saw that, I think that's why he left Porsche and Chay alive that day, as a leverage. Namphung wouldn't go with them willingly, but if it's her children at stakes? Her loved ones? She can be locked up in that attic for an eternity.
And then all those years later comes Porsche.
We all know how much of everything was planned by Korn but I actually think that even showing Porsche his mother was indeed planned. That he really did had in mind their meeting but not in a caring uncle way.
No, Korn saw Porsche and he saw an opportunity. He already had a leverage over him - his mother, Porsche clearly was skilled and he was a Namphung's son. Which meant that he could get the position as the minor family heir.
But what Korn needed was Porsche's loyalty before doing that. He needed him to walk into this world by himself. That's why I think he also reacted so quickly to Kinn and Porsche being boyfriend's in such a manner. They being in love actually aligned with his plan more then he initially planned. He now, not only had his mother but also his lover and then saying that Chay also should be moving into the compound? This was Korn's chains tightening around Porsche's hands and ankles without us even noticing.
But he still wasn't sure how loyal Porsche was.
That's where the final showdown comes in.
Korn could have lied about Porsche hiring Porsche, he didn't have to really say anything. Kim meddling wouldn't have impact on Porsche and Kinn because he wasn't speaking and sharing with them. He didn't have to do that.
But he did, he did as to specially put him into this position where Porsche had to choose.
And Porsche showing up to the final fight? It was a testament of his loyalty.
To Korn it didn't matter it was his loyalty to Kinn. Loyalty to Kinn means inderct loyalty to Korn because his own son is just a pawn, a tool to use in this game of chess played with lives.
And that's when Korn shows Namphung. When Porsche has proven his loyalty. He shows him his shackles, the ones that were put on him long before and by having Kinn offer him the ring, the new ones he put on.
That's why Namphung was so devastated at the last minutes. All this sacrifice, this life in a fucking attic was for nothing, because there were walking in her sons. One of them with the same shackles thing him to this world she recognized because she wore them herself.
Also side note to VegasPete fans: Vegas also has slight shackles put on. Korn did what his father did when killed Namphung's family. He said he will take care of Vegas and Macau. And then he let Pete go after Vegas. Pete who did say he will always be loyal to the major family (even if it was only formality). They might have an illusion of an escape from this world but one string pulled from Korn and just like Namphung's lovely family life with her husband - it will fall apart at the seams.
Because Korn saw what his father did. And he improved it.
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thequeenofsastiel · 2 years
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So how are we thinking Big is going to handle this whole thing? Will he sit back and let Porsche get screwed over by Tawan? Or will he help Porsche because he hates Tawan? I'm honestly not sure which way it'll go. I'm thinking the latter, given that we're shown him speaking out against Tawan. Y'all?
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igiturr · 2 years
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Hey fellas,
Can anybody who has read the novel tell me about how it handles Vegas' spirituality? In the series we see him going to the temple with his brother and attending sermons. Macau quickly mentions that his brother is "very into Dharma lately", so I wanted to know if there's more to this in the novel or if it's not that deep.
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Okay I have a theory about Kinnporsche and the whole "unreliable narrator" scenes (you know the ones)
Kinnporsche spoilers below obviously
In episode 2 (00:50:14), Gun asks Korn "Are you being too kind to those bodyguards?", to which Korn answers "Sometimes, people deserve... A second chance... Or a third chance." and then, Gun says "And do you ever give chances to everyone?"
Now, the first time you watch this, you don't necessarily know about the story (I don't, I didn't read the books and won't bc I want to keep the surprise), but if you're on a rewatch (like me), this sentence is actually super interesting because it could refer to what happened to Porsche's parents.
Remember, we have two versions of the same story; a story where Porsche's dad is shot and killed, and his mom died soon after. In both scenarios, Korn and Gun are present, and both blame the other for the crime.
But, and this stuck with me when I watched the episodes the first time, the difference between the narration from Korn (very calm, he looks really sorry and almost powerless/ like he regrets all the lies and bad stuff that happened, but he's overall very composed and calm) and Gun's narration (he's reacting in a very emotional way, yelling and crying and being visibly shaken), it just had me wondering if we had the right villain or not.
Don't get me wrong, Gun has his faults and he is certainly not a good guy, he owns his role as a villain / antagonist in s1, but here it's more about "is Korn really as sorry and honest as he tries to make us believe?"
It's no secret that Korn lied throughout the show, and each "sorry it was a lie I know, I did it to protect you but here is a truth for you" made it harder for me to believe him. And now, this sentence, this allusion to something that probably happened before, something only Korn and Gun know of, something where Korn should have showed mercy and/or given a second chance but did not, and Gun is still bitter about it?
Well, the one situation that we know of is the Porsche's Parents situation.
And like, I am saying this as someone who never had an ounce of sympathy for Gun. Not once did I look at him and thought "ho well, he's a mafia guy but he's also trying his best to protect his family/ be kind to X person working for him/ etc.". He just radiates that "do not trust" energy. Except for the narration scene. That's the only moment I actually fully believed him, and it was way easier to doubt Korn's version than Gun's version in that moment (for me). Maybe it's because Gun was so raw and emotional, it's not the kind of reaction you can act. Plus the fact that Korn shot Gun right before he revealed something that would absolutely compromise Korn and his version like it was so obvious.
So yeah, all of this to say, I think this little conversation was actually a foreshadowing for the last few episodes of s1, and will probably also be a foreshadowing for what's coming in s2.
Let's see where it leads us!
Edit: may I also add that Gun's version is more plausible and likely to be true than Korn's because Gun's genuinely didn't know that Namphueng was alive. I mean look at the shock and disbelief on his face when he sees her, and the way he reacts and screams at Korn and gets so emotional. That's too genuine to be fake imo. On the other hand, Korn's calm, strategic attitude + his multiples lies + him never revealing the full truth even when exposed just... He's like a Venus Flytrap I think. Wants you to believe he is sweet and innocent when really he is strategic and deadly, and won't hesitate to fool you in order to survive and thrive.
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colourme-feral · 2 years
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Thoughts on a scene + speculation:
This scene in particular, where Vegas brings Porsche, Pete and Arm through the covered shopping arcade before going to the minor family’s compound, serves to show Vegas in his own territory and his power that he has, at least while in it.
I think that one of the things it hints at is that the minor family is in charge of area(s) in Bangkok and it collects protection money from the businesses in those places.
Side note: It is possible that the Theerapanyakul family as a whole, is in charge of the areas, but the minor family is the one on the ground, reminding people who’s in charge.
A quick note about what made me consider this idea. At the shooting range, Kinn, Time and Tay have a conversation about two things:
The first is how Kinn mentions that he would like to expand his business to the Thonglor area, which is Teh’s father’s old area. Rather than simply expanding his area, he brings it up to his friends who are from powerful families too. The implication behind this seems to be that areas are controlled by mafia families and permission or exchanges of sorts are needed to expand into them.
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The second is that Time mentions that he had had a car accident in the Thonglor area, which Tay’s father used to manage, and the accident was completely covered up with Tay’s father’s influence. This seems to suggest that the power of mafia families reaches even the police, since things like accidents can be completely covered up.
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This brings us back to Vegas and Porsche’s not-date, which Pete and Arm join them on. They walk through a stretch of indoor shopping area and the people working at the shops clearly stop what they are doing and greet (wai) Vegas when they see him. You can see that Vegas only acknowledges them with a nod of his head, not a similar greeting (wai), which may suggest that he is of a higher position than they are.
Beside Vegas, is Porsche, who looks a little uncomfortable and maybe showing a growing understanding of what the minor family's duties may involve.
Up to this point in the scene, it can still be assumed that the minor family might simply own and lease the shop spaces out, which would explain why Vegas is greeted when he walks past the stalls.
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However, when walking past the stall selling skewers, Pete and Arm start talking about wanting to eat them and Vegas purposely turns around and simply picks up skewers, which he then hands to the two.
No exchange of money or thanks is made to the stall keepers, which reinforces my belief that the minor family collects protection money from these stall owners, suggesting that his position is more than simply landlord.
If the stall holders were to offend him, they would have much to lose, possibly their business area and the protection of the minor family. Not selling a few skewers is a small price to pay in exchange for that.
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This entire walk through the covered shopping arcade, Porsche doesn’t say anything and seems to be observing how Vegas is in his territory. The expressions that we can see, which Vegas fails to, don’t seem to show approval. Those may be contemplative looks, but maybe Porsche is realising how much closer the minor family is to the loan sharks that would go to his own home and the kind of power that the minor family holds.
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ditch-lily · 5 months
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this post by @viva-yas-vegas reminded me about this I posted ages ago
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like I still think about it...to this day...
also thank u @kat8porgs for your insightful addition
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poprocksromance · 1 year
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You know I bet there are people who are going to go “It’s horrible that Kit Connor was forced out of the closet” and then turn around and openly speculate and comment about kpop idols and BL actors’ sexuality and think it’s different.
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aeternallis · 1 month
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I wanted to talk about this recent development with the copyright holders of KP, since I feel like this may keep the door open to a KP Season 2 in the future.
After all, according to Poi's tweets earlier this month, it does sound like a (different) production company also bought the rights to the TimeTayTem novel. If that novel goes to production, I'm not sure if Poi and Yok would be working with the production considering their horrendous track record, but it'll be interesting to see it all play out.
The fact that this announcement came just as the license for the KP novel was announced by SevenSeas though pretty much confirms that any proceeds from the sales of the novel overseas won't be going to Yok and Poi. Although not gonna lie, that does make me wonder how much Space Plus Agency paid to buy the copyrights and if BOC had placed in a bid for the rights or not. Methinks they probably didn't, since I'm assuming BOC wants to grow away from KinnPorsche, but who knows with Pond and Mile.
KinnPorsche was their passion project, and Mile in particular still holds a lot of love for Kinn, as do the rest of the cast for their respective characters.
Is it also possible Space Plus Agency is the front BOC is using in order to have gotten the rights to KP and its subsequent novels? Hmmm...maybe, but that sounds illegal. XD So I'm gonna stop that train of thought and not say anything further. Lol
Personally, I'm looking forward to how Tiara-ME will tackle the rest of the stories. I'm nipping at their heels to get the TopTan story done and over with, so they can get to the KimChay story, which I've been waiting for about a year and a half now, lol. It'll be wonderful to see where this author will take these two, hehe!
The way I see it, the KimChay story, Macau story (by virtue of the ending w/ the VegasPete story), and KinnPorsche Story 2 (End of Mafia) being the last three stories makes sense, especially with how DAEMI had set up Kim and Kinn to be rival heirs, as well as figure out who the hell had pushed baby Macau to his death. ;_;
All in all, some interesting developments with this franchise~ I'm keeping my eyes peeled for what happens next~
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spicesprinkles · 2 years
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Episode 14 Speculation
So.... I’ve been thinking about the final episode of KinnPorsche (because honestly, what else are we meant to do for the next week?) and how the big shootout is going to go.
Now, Vegas has an emotional connection to Pete, pretty much insinuated to his father that he doesn't want to be his son anymore (because of how he treats him), teamed up with Porsche (yes, Pete was a very big factor for this) but he teamed up with him nevertheless and didn't abandon him when Kinn and Pete turned up and actively called out to him with worry when the Uncle was shot, and in fact defended Kinn not once but twice to Porsche! 
Because of this, I am finding it hard to believe Vegas would willingly turn up at the big battle on his father’s side and start shooting at the Main Family when he has the aforementioned reasons to want to protect them? Also, I noticed this:
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Both Vegas and Porsche have big ass guns with what I could make out as red laser thingybobbies attached to them.
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(Porsche’s BigassGun also has a sniper thing to look through)
BUT ... B-U-T-
Don't they look very similar - almost like Porsche and Vegas aren't enemies in this shootout but allies and Vegas/Porsche supplied the weapons to each other to go get their men and protect them?
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Also, is this Vegas? I assume so because his gun has that red laser thing and because I’d recognize that beauty from a mile off. Doesn't exactly look like he’s trying to shoot Kinn/Porsche and when KP is doing their gun/tango thing, Porsche doesn't point his gun in Vegas’s direction?
Because by this point, Porsche and Vegas aren't on the main family’s side/second family’s side, they’re on Kinn/Pete’s side?
Please tell me I have a chance of being right because I realllllly want the younger generation to team up and put the oldies in their place!
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Head touching and KinnPorsche
Many moons ago, before I realised that my Bangkok trip would be botched, I read the dos and don’ts in Thailand. Carefully. One of them is that you don’t put your hand on someone’s head without permission. That part of the body is sacred in Thailand and Vietnam. In the whole Asia it is forbidden, disrespectful, to enter a house or any dwelling with street shoes. Feet as the lowest part of the body are deemed extremely dirty.
As a traveller/tourist, I am not really comfortable being touchy feely with the inhabitants especially if I don’t know them personally, even if I am feeling grateful. Still, it was good to know.
As orphaned brothers, the bond between Porsche and Porchay is strong. Betrayed by their uncle, they only have themselves to rely on.
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That’s why I was surprised that in this scene Kim, like a big brother, touched Porchay’s head, swished his hair, affectionately that the latter deeply accepted. Porchay let him because he liked Kim very much. He trusted him, probably with his life, second to his brother Porsche, who “disappeared.”
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We, the viewers, know that this pairing will end in tears. It must be Porchay’s naïveté, his innocence, but darn, he adores Kim so much, cannot separate the celebrity, the musician, from the real person.
You can see it in Kim’s countenance. Every time the camera pans on his face, he puts on a mask to cover his annoyance. It is not love he feels per se for Porchay. It is curiosity, probably a bit of an anger, and pity, okay, and a tiny whiff of affection.
And we witnessed it all crumble during episode 11. Kim’s eyes were full of dejection, a slight disinterest, of him tired of this pretense. Yes, he protected Porchay from the goons, who tried to hurt the boy. But did he do it out of penitence? Or guilt as a son of a Mafia boss, who could magically banish his enemies or nuisance with a blink of an eye, like what he did to the Kittisawasd brothers’ parents by enacting a car crash?
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The question remains: why has been Kim so adamant on finding out who killed Porsche and Porchay’s parents? Atoning for his father’s sins or collecting more evidence to crucify his family?
The scene was maddeningly emotional that the actor Tinnasit Isarapongporn (Barcode), who portrays Porchay, had to be consoled afterwards. It was later shown on Be on Cloud’s BTS video.
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I have a hunch, though, that KimChay shippers wouldn’t like. Porchay was the result of the extramarital affair with Porchay’s mum. Technically speaking, he’d be the fourth son, which would explain why Kim is not keen on having a relationship with Porchay.
Taking these foreshadowings into consideration.
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Like always, I could be wrong.
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yeahmileapo · 2 years
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oh
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thequeenofsastiel · 2 years
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Very curious how the KP fandom is going to react if it turns out that Kinn and Porsche really are cousins. How many will go "Ew, incest," how many will look past it because they love Kinn and Porsche together, and how many will shrug and say that there's nothing objectively morally wrong with the fact that they happen to share some DNA?
I'm honestly curious enough that I might be willing to look through the KinnPorsche tag. Maybe.
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surrealsunday · 2 years
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Crazy theory anon here.
Thanks for your response because talking with others is also helping me make sense of things in my own head. I like what you said and I agree that there might be another thing that breaks KP up again after they survive the current situation because I keep waffling between what I already wrote and this theory. I wonder if it might have anything to do with the thumb drive. Tawan showing up has put the spotlight on Porsche because they’re trying to frame him as a scapegoat or, at the very least, a distraction but I find it interesting that they keep bringing up his parents death. So much that it can’t be written off as insignificant.
I don’t necessarily think this is what’s gonna happen but I’m curious if some connection between Porsche and Kinns family might arise when they look at whatever is on that drive. The one thing that is in Porsches favor is that the mole has been there long before he and Kinn even met but if there’s a connection to the family since he was a child? That could be misconstrued in a myriad of ways and place doubt in the minds of the people preaching his innocence, especially if the family actually is connected to their deaths in some way. That might make it seem like some form of motive for Porsche and further serve as a misdirect from whoever is orchestrating this whole thing. It could also potentially drive an even bigger wedge between KP. On the flip side, if Porsche finds out that, say Korn for example, was responsible for literally destroying his life and causing lifelong trauma to him and his brother and then forcing him into this life that he fought against so hard? That could also be really bad and maybe cause Porsche to doubt Kinn for the first time since they’ve been together. I mean, even before Porsche, I think the main goal was to keep Kinn isolated and paranoid and now that can’t happen if he and Porsche are solid. He’s no longer a sitting duck in the middle of this mafia pond.
Like, I find it interesting that when Vegas toying with Porsche was obviously not working and only really bringing KP closer together, they throw a wrench into it with Tawan showing up who just so coincidentally was held captive by the Italians. It’s just so obviously suspect.
I don’t actually think that Porsche will take off with Vegas tbh I just kinda like the idea but I never even considered Kinn walking away from the pool because he trusted Porsche to handle himself. That’s so interesting! I think the truth is also that Porsche just doesn’t have the option to tell Vegas to back off and like he said in the past to Kinn, he has to play his role when it comes to that situation “manners, you know?” Because as much as Porsche is a little shit who’s goal in life is to be an endearing pain in Kinns ass, he understand his place with the other members of the family for the most part. I think at the very least Porsche is on guard with Vegas but might be smart enough to act like he’s buying this “I’m so misunderstood” schtick and still seem as passive as Vegas thinks he is. However deep it runs, I just don’t think Porsche is trusting of Vegas anymore but he knows he needs to keep making him think he’s creating a weak link with his tactics. If that makes sense? That’s why hearing people in the fandom say things like “Porsche needs to stay away from Vegas” is so frustrating because he doesn’t really have the option to do that anymore than he has the option to stay away from anyone else in the family because they’re the goddamn mafia. He doesn’t have the same leeway he has with Kinn and I hope Kinn is finally getting over his jealousy enough to understand that now.
This is a little out there I admit but like I said, I loooooove speculating.
Thanks for your response though, you’re very good at articulating your thoughts and it kinda helps me with all this information bouncing around my head. I struggle to get it all out in a coherent way sometimes so I very much enjoy interacting with you.
Ohhhhh I'm so glad you came back. This is fun!
And god you're totally right. There is the thumb drive and that whole thing about Porsche's parents to contend with too. I'm super intrigued to see how all of it will come together. You raise some really interesting thoughts which reminds me of something I had originally considered happening (but lost sight of in the drama of this ep). I also had thought Korn's (maybe) involvement in Porsche's parents deaths could potentially throw a curveball and cause the final hurdle before Kinn and Porsche form a united front. My speculation (and disclaimer... truly based on nothing but what I could imagine when late night musing) was that maybe whatever the 'truth' is, it's awful enough for Porsche to want out of mafia life. I really can't imagine a situation where he steps away from Kinn - maybe it would be because Porchay has been pulled into the world? - but if he did, it wouldn't be because he didn't love Kinn, but because he had to get away for Porchay's sake. And him leaving would be a betrayal of sorts to Kinn? I dunno. I still can't totally see Kinn pulling a gun on him like he does in the preview under those circumstances. But I think all those lose threads have to come together to cause some drama. That's for sure.
"I think the main goal was to keep Kinn isolated and paranoid and now that can’t happen if he and Porsche are solid. He’s no longer a sitting duck in the middle of this mafia pond." I so totally agree. Tawan sees Porsche (and Kinn's soft heart which he's given to Porsche) as a weakness. He's wrong though. Porsche makes Kinn stronger - and vice versa. And that is a lesson I can't wait for Tawan to learn. Vegas too sees Porsche as an opportunity to weaken and destabilize Kinn. But he's just going about it in a way that would actually work (if it weren't for the fact that Kinn and Porsche are so devoted to one another). Vegas knows if he took Porsche from Kinn, Kinn would be totally lost. And I agree... it's way too suspect that Tawan shows up right when Vegas's plan so dramatically fails. Vegas has a long-game plan for sure, and I would be shocked if that didn't intersect with Tawan in some way. And perhaps Tawan was inserted into things because Kinn and Porsche were proving themselves to be too devoted to one another - so additional measures were taken.
You actually sort of changed my mind on the whole 'Porsche running with Vegas' thing and I am seriously considering it now. Maybe it just won't last long? And it will be in the interest of Porsche clearing his name? Now that you've raised the possibility with me, I am considering it more.
And OMG we are on the EXACT SAME PAGE when it comes to your thoughts about Porsche's interactions with Vegas. Yes! I totally get why people get frustrated watching and want Porsche to tell Vegas off or just leave or whatever but... and maybe this is just because I relate to Porsche a fair bit... I think I would react the exact same way as Porsche? The sort of 'play nice' thing while being on guard and no longer trusting Vegas. It's like when Vegas kisses Porsche and Porsche does a sort of meek move trying to get away (vs. the way he responds with Kinn, for eg). That made so much sense to me. He can't piss off Vegas and reject him or tell him off. Not without the very real danger that comes with that (which he acknowledged at the end of ep 3 in recognizing that Kinn saved his life when threatened by the minor family). Porsche can tell off Kinn all he likes - he always could - and do so without fearing for his life. There was always a level of trust there. That doesn't extend to Vegas and it especially doesn't extend to Vegas now. And of course there is another layer to their interaction at the pool in this ep. Porsche is vulnerable and he sees Vegas being vulnerable in return (yes it's a ploy but Vegas fronts well). He's wary and reserved, but there is a comradery he allows in that moment because, quite frankly, he's feeling a bit lost. It makes sense to me in the context of everything we see happen in the ep. And honestly it makes me super curious to get a better sense of what Porsche is thinking when it comes to Vegas, which I imagine we will get next ep.
And truly it's my pleasure to chat with you 💞💞💞. Your thoughts are extremely well laid out and really make me think! Trust me when I say you are beyond coherent (I hope I am offering the same despite this being the end of a very long work day for me lol). I can't wait to find out what we might be right or wrong about!
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tinysweetflour · 2 years
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Ok Hear me out...
I am pretty sure Bible is a witch
He is a hermit. Doesn't have much friends but has vast knowledge.
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Favorite colour: Black
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Can make you pretty trinkets but also weapons
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Can mesmerize you in any form
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Has a familiar
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You name it. He can do it!!
Just pics radiating
✨witch vibes✨
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yeetlegay · 2 years
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Mile saying he did Kinnporsche for the experience is so fucking funny to me, like my dude you do understand the experience is grabbing Apo’s ass
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