#is the situation in israel and even then it doesn't necessarily have all that much to do w Judaism as like.... a creed | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

jewishvitya · 6 months

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I just wanted to thank you so much for all of your insight and generosity with your perspective as an anti-zionist israeli, something you absolutely don't owe us but I feel immense amounts of respect and admiration for. from an American jew, it's been so valuable to know there are people like you out there, it's made everything feel much less hopeless despite all the hopelessness. I've felt very alone recently, surrounded by all the Jewish people in my life who are pro-israel and don't seem to grasp the gravity of the situation and my pro-palestine gentile friends, and I've felt very alone in my grief as I've only really started to unpack and dismantle my own biases very recently. reading your posts and your perspective on everything has just made me feel very seen as a jew in this situation, especially as I try to reconcile my feelings about everything going on with my own feelings about my faith and my identity.

you've probably seen that I've gone through a lot of your posts and that I've followed you. i just want you to know that I'm not necessarily following you just for that, I know you're just a fandom blog, it's just that after looking through your posts I feel like you're just a really nice person and seeing yoi on my dash from you would be endearing coming from you even though im not into it myself.

just. thank you again for sharing your story and continuing to share. you have no idea how much it's helped me.

I'm in tears. I've been crying way more than usual over the past couple of months, but it's nice for a change to have those tears to come from being touched instead of grief. I apologize if I'm going to ramble.

You say I didn't owe you all this, but I do feel responsible. I'm watching so much destruction and seeing how comfortable people around me are with the loss of life. This is why I've been talking about what we do and not as much about the impact of October 7 on me or people I know. I did a bit of that in the beginning, but pretending it was the start of everything to keep going back to that one day, after two months of horror, as if I can't count past 7... I didn't choose to be born where I am, I didn't choose to grow up in the most extremist community this place has to offer. But since I'm here, since I'm comfortable at the expense of Palestinians and violence is being done in my name and I have the tools to highlight issues within my society, I think it's a moral obligation.

I know how I talk about things here, and that's genuinely because I don't want to minimize the severity of the racism and the nationalism in Israel. And someone perceived my words as showing hatred for Israelis. But... I love my people. I don't expect those who see or experience our violence to feel the same or even understand me, but I do. It's my neighbors and my childhood friends and my family. It's children I see playing outside and getting excited when they see I have a cat, and the random people who stop me in the street and give me directions if they think I look lost.

Even growing up in the West Bank settlements, the people were very good to me. I needed years to internalize the fact that this kindness doesn't get extended to you if you're not part of the in-group. It broke my heart. It still does. Seeing people who I know are capable of kindness and compassion, hardening themselves against the pain of other human beings. Closing their eyes and telling themselves it isn't real. It's all an act.

I told a friend I feel like I'm betraying my mom, who was deeply bigoted, but also a wonderful mother. She taught me a lot of the principles that are guiding me now - I just took down the walls she put around who deserves to be considered. She'd be horrified with seeing the things I'm saying if she was still alive. But she taught me to care about people, I just decided it means all people.

Everyone should be prioritizing Palestinian liberation, and at the same time, I care about this too. I care about the morality of my people. I need us to be better than this. I want to dismantle the nationalism that teaches us hate and violence so we can start to heal and come to terms with what we did (and still do) here. I want us to fix what we can and hold ourselves accountable. I want us to reimagine safety in a way that doesn't cause harm, and build good relationships with the rest of humanity. Every marginalized community is experiencing bigotry in interactions with every other community, that's just how these things work. But I believe healing the world, and healing my society, is possible.

And it's hard, because so much of what we learn is rooted in truth. Antisemitism is real. Millennia of persecution are real. The trauma we carry is real. If the idea of an ethnostate makes us feel safe, and the idea of losing it makes us scared, how do we differentiate between fear as a natural reaction to antisemitic violence and fear that was taught to us for the sake of nationalism? Especially those of us living in Israel, immersed in the propaganda. It doesn't matter in practice, our feelings of safety or fear don't justify an ethnostate, especially not one built on top of another nation, but it matters for the conversations I have with people.

And I said that the violence I'm seeing feels like an attack on my identity. Seeing a giant hannukiyah in Gaza, when Hannukah tells the story of occupied people fighting off their oppressors. Seeing images that echo so much of the horrors that were done to us. The Magen David being used with hate and spite. It's all so painful. And I love this land, it's the only home I've known, so seeing us destroying nature and soaking it with blood and calling that connection?

Judaism does guide me here. The concept of tikkun olam. The idea of לא עליך המלאכה לגמור ולא אתה בין חורין לבטל ממנה - doing what I can, even if what I'm able to do isn't some decisive blow that entirely turns the tide. The idea that every human being is a whole entire world, to me it means that every single person alive is worth fighting for. So no matter how much death I see, there's still worlds more to save.

And Jewitches had this post that felt just healing to read. Nationalism hijacked our culture, and it will always leave a mark for centuries into the future. But I'm not letting go, and I'm not letting that create a rift between me and thousands of years full of history I can be proud of.

I feel your grief. And I'm grateful for the anti-zionist Jews I met by talking about this, because honestly, I need you people in my life. The pain and the anger are both easier to hold together.

So, thank you for following. I might follow back, just to see you around on my feed. And thank you for sending this. Feel free to message me anytime for any reason (I promise it won't result in a lecture every time).

Also, your url gave me pjo nostalgia

#riki babbles

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keshetchai · 8 months

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I think a huge problem in internet Judaism (also sometimes irl!) discussions is often that we're so focused on fighting or pushing back on misconceptions, Christian normativity, and distorted Christian ideas about our theology — that sometimes in the pursuit of this, we forget to approach a more complicated internal reality, or we overlook parts of our own religion while trying to not assimilate.

Things like the Talmud talking about Yom Kippur being a happy day. A lot of folks were surprised and didn't know there's a huge tradition that YK is supposed to be a positive holiday and many Jews observe with joy. Then some folks went on to elaborate that if someone wished them a happy Yom Kippur and they were Jewish it was fine, but if they were gentiles who simply didn't know anything and didn't bother to learn, then they were annoyed by the lack of care re: cultural nuance or whatever.

But like...of all the annoying christian-normative bullshit that exists — someone trying to wish me a happy holiday on a holiday that is noted to be solemn AND positive, but not really knowing anything about my religion — that doesn't really make a list of things I have time to be mad about! Or even irked by!

There's a lot of ways in which people are shitty and careless or make it obvious they consider our non-christian holidays an annoying quirk they have to acknowledge, but "happy yom kippur!" Is not one of them. Sometimes I just have to remind myself that I want other people to assume the best of me, even when I am the one who is socially awkward or ignorant, or stumbling around just trying to be an okay person. And sometimes I am the clueless one who has only a shallow understanding of someone's interior life/culture and I said/did nothing actually offensive but treated the situation the same way I treat similar ones in my own life because everyone has cultural blinders somewhere.

So sometimes, I have to look at other people doing The Thing and ask myself if it's at all malicious or harmful, and if it ISN'T, shouldn't I assume the best of another human bumbling around like I do all the time? "Hey thanks. Yeah I had a meaningful holiday."

Likewise, YES, we do have a history of wrestling with G-d and pushing back and asking questions and so on, but no, stiff-necked isn't wholly complimentary, it's...frequently the opposite of that. And the knee-jerk reaction is often to push back against Christianity and Islam vilifying Jews and their stubbornness/failures/wrongs in the Bible. Which is totally reasonable, there's a huge history of a theology of antisemitism and blaming there that impacts us today.

HOWEVER, we can push back against the antisemitic theologies and interpretations of these stories without necessarily having to recharacterize everything beyond recognition?

Yes, Abraham yelled at G-d that one time, and it was great. It may have even been a test of Abraham. Yes, Israel wrestles with G-d. Yes, the Jews in the desert complain to Moses they are dying of thirst and ask what was the point of leaving Egypt if they should only die while wandering instead?

Great. Love that. BUT ALSO: yes stiff-necked is not always a compliment. Yes, the Israelites struggled and made mistakes, and are utterly and painfully human just like people are today. Flawed. We are not so stiff-necked as to say we have not sinned!

Is anything as scary as a group that admits no flaws? No errors of judgment? Never questions themselves or learns from past mistakes? Idk to me, it's all very "with great responsibility comes great accountability, and power isn't the point here." Yes? If we take pride in the moments of arguing and the pushing back, then by that same token, we have to own the failings just as much to learn from. The relationship between G-d and Jews is a two way street.

It's not a failing to be an imperfect human, but it would be a failing to screw something up and then never admit it or keep doing it when you can change.

Idk I just...there's got to be ways we can dig into meaty and interesting stuff without having to constantly be like "just because some ancestors screwed up and G-d was angry at them doesn't mean you can say Jews lost the love of God and the covenant and were replaced you absolute weirdos."

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blessedarethebinarybreakers · 6 months

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Don't you think there's better ways of showing support for Palestinians/Israeli Christians than by perpetuating the "Jesus was Palestinian" myth that people constantly try and use to deny Jewish indigeneity. Allegory or not, it's not a great look for someone who purports to be against that kind of erasure and supercessionism. Also, having 1 line about how his death was the Empire's fault so don't blame the Jews is meaningless when in this allegory, the Empire (Israeli government) *is* Jewish

(anyone curious about what anon's referring to, I believe it's my poem here)

Hey there anon, thank you for your feedback. In this situation where various marginalized peoples are being pitted against each other (and/or conflated with political groups), I've been struggling to make sure my words don't add to the misinformation and harm. So whenever someone takes the time to remind me of that danger, I'll take the time to re-examine my words — even if I end up standing by them, as I mostly do in this case.

I can't promise to say and do all the perfect things, because there isn't time to waste getting my words just right before saying something — people are dying right now (and yes, anon, that includes those Israelis who are still hostages of Hamas, who are also endangered by Israel's continued attacks.)

I have been spending much of my free time these past few months learning more about Israel and Palestine, and I still don't feel I'm even close to knowing enough! But I've listened to those who are actually in the midst of the violence who say that all of us across the world must join their cry now, not letting our ignorance be an excuse. That means there have been a few things I've said that I then had to re-consider after learning more.

...

Just a few days ago, I was actually trying to look into the origins of the statement that "Jesus was a Palestinian Jew." (Btw if anyone knows the origins of this statement, please hit me up!)

Arguments against it note that the term "Palestinian" didn't exist in Jesus' day. Looking into the accuracy of that statement is still on my to-do list; I did skim over this article calling it a myth but yeah, still digging. Regardless, sure, I don't think Jesus called himself a Palestinian in his lifetime.

That doesn't necessarily mean that the statement is useless, however. I do very much believe that if Jesus were born today, in the same place, he'd be born to a Jewish Palestinian family, not an Israeli one.

That does not erase his Jewishness; it confirms God's "preferential option for the poor," God's choice to side with and become one with the most oppressed and discarded. It also does not assert that Jewish persons don't "belong" in the region — only that the modern nation/colony Israel isn't necessary for them to live and thrive there.

All that said, if anyone has more info on the statement that "Jesus was a Palestinian" — its origins, how it's been used over the years — I would absolutely like to examine it further. For now, I stand by the phrase, with an openness to re-considering that with further education.

...

I feel more confident in talking about Empire — how I used it in my poem, versus how you've interpreted it. I'm genuinely grateful to you for bringing your reading of it to my attention, because it's shown me that my words weren't clear enough there!

In these verses from my poem:

"...And now, as then, some may blame Jesus’s death on his own Jewish people — but resist this lie! Now as then the crime is Empire’s and those of us who would cast stones should ponder first what our nations gain from genocide. ..."

You interpret Empire as being Israel.

My intention was that Empire with a capital E is a much larger network of all imperial forces on earth. Israel is entangled in that, and directly backed and funded by those forces. My own country, the United States, is one of the nations at the helm of Empire.

So when I talk of Empire being to blame, I'm not saying just Israel — honestly, I'm personally more concerned with the US's complicity, because I feel as a US citizen I can help demand they stop.

So I'm going to rework that bit to better express what I mean by Empire, so it doesn't sound like I'm focusing only on Israel. Empire is so much bigger than any one state, colony, or government.

...

Okay, I'm out of steam. I'm going to link a few pieces that have been helping me frame all that's going on right now to resist pitting marginalized groups against each other:

This art piece naming "contradicting truths"

This article by Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg also naming seemingly contradictory truths

Since I didn't really get deep into this part of your ask, I also appreciate this article discussing the question of indigeneity. It discards the "need" to figure out "who was there first" in favor of exploring intersecting histories.

Oh also, because you claim that the Israeli government "is Jewish," I think discussions on how Israel isn't actually a safe haven for all Jews, only those that fit into their goals, are vital.

#chatting tag #idk how to word this but. like.#what's happening right now is both NOT complex: we MUST side with Palestine.#and also very very complex with a need for nuance and context.#both and not either or #does that make sense?....

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confusedlamp · 7 months

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At the risk of potentially being misinterpreted, there are some misunderstandings in much of the tumblr discourse, from left leaning Americans, surrounding Israel and Palestine. While I am skeptical of how much tumblr discourse really matters in the grand scheme, I did want to make two two points that I keep seeing folks yelling about unnecessarily.

1. "It's complicated."/ "No, it's simple!"

I've seen often the misunderstanding that when people say the situation is complicated that they explicitly mean that there's somehow morally ambiguity about mass murder of Palestinians in Gaza. Yeah, no. That's fucked and you don't really need to know a ton about the history to know it's fucked and to call for an end to it.

There are however, things that are more complicated. If you actually want to understand the orgins of zionism and those who justify it, you can't necessarily just copy and paste how American colonialism worked/ works. There are similarities, to be certain. But things aren't 1:1. Furthermore, if you want to talk about what should eventually happen (beyond the immediate), you are dealing with a lot of traumatized people, a lot of propaganda, governments that aren't exactly democratic to say in the least, and some pretty intense geopolitics. Figuring out a solution that minimizes human suffering, repairs even a portion of harm done, and that actually has a shot in hell of happening is complicated. Acknowledging the complexity doesn't mean that you should stop there and cease to learn or discuss or advocate. Just know that actually working for a better future isn't simple.

2. The term "zionism"/ Israelis

I am not any form of zionist, but please know that everyone who says they are doesn't necessarily mean that they support the current Israeli government's actions. Some zionists definitely do, but I have also seen zionists argue against it, both from a humanitarian perspective and a "this is actually harmful to Israel's security." Zionism, by definition, does mean they think Israel should exist as a Jewish state, which I don't think is compatible with how an equitable country can exist and ignores what has been done to create that state. However somebody saying they're a zionist does not mean that they are pro Benjamin Netanyahu's war crimes. With at least American Jewish zionists, I often find they have a lot of misconceptions regarding Israel's orgins.

In that same vein, Israel isn't a monolith. There is a recent large swing towards nationalism after Hamas's attack (think about where the political atmosphere of the US was post 9/11), but even some survivors or family of the victims don't support the bombing of Gaza. The Israeli government is also currently actively surpessing voices calling for peace, even what are honestly fairly bland statements. It's also worth noting the amount of propaganda that's been put out to deny any wrong doing on the part of the Israeli government. I'm not saying we should assume all Israelis are innocent or people aren't culpable for their own actions. I just have seen some pretty extreme takes from American leftists that paint all Israeli citizens as deserving harm, which doesn't really help anyone.

(I am responding to rhetoric I have seen on mostly tumblr. Obviously, the US media has largely swung in the opposite direction. I've tried very hard to avoid drawing false moral equivalencies here, or even the appearance of such.)

#got tired of people arguing past each other #folks are rightfully outraged #but we can still try and understand each other #american #palestine #israel #antizionism

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alarrytale · 3 months

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Engagement is down//

His last post anywhere got 2.3m likes which was more than most of his LOT posts from 2023. I don't know how else to measure engagement as he isn't on twitter or tiktok.

Some asks about Harry, engagement and fandom's reaction to his silence on genocide under the cut.

Hi, anons!

Engagement can be measured in many ways. Likes on posts is one thing. Likes are usually up when he hasn't posted for a while. When he does it consistently and often it's down to a medium level. I usually think of several different ways to measure engagement. Clicks on tabloid articles about him (how interested and invested are people in him?), google search results (how many are googling him), name drop results (how many are talking about harry styles across all media platforms), how many streams are his albums getting (is it up or down?), how much merch does he sell, when he does something is he trending on social media? etc.

I don't have the numbers for all this, but i feel like people are pretty apathetic about his current stunt, people aren’t reblogging or retweeting pictures of them or even hating on them (that would still be engagement). He's been off for a while so that might explain things, but i thought his football match appearance didn’t engage people like i would expect it to. Maybe i'm wrong.

Hi Marte. Considering online outrage doesn't necessarily transfer to the real world. Like there is endless online discourse about JKR but the HP game was one of the best selling games of 2023 despite petitions to cancel it and negative review brigading. It made over a billion on PC alone. A book she released some time ago went straight to number 1 best sellers list. The majority of people are still buying her products. They're making a HP tv series and she's part of it and I wouldn't be surprised if it does well. There is a lot of excitement about it. I guess you could say the same with TSwift. There is nothing but hate for her online and she's still the best selling artist worldwide. So I'm just wondering. Do you think this will be a similar situation with Harry where if he is cancelled online it won't make a difference to his career or do you think he won't hold up as well as the others? I guess it depends on how good his next album is. If his album is really good then people will buy it. I can see him getting a lot of online backlash if he goes back to queer coding when he releases his music.

Yeah, and that's why i wrote that we'll have to see how this impacts him. I don't think a major celebrity will be cancelled in a flash, and they'll go from everything to nothing. It all depends on what the "crime" is too. The HP game did well, but did it do as well as it could have done if JKR wasn't cancelled? Also she's a te*f, i don't think many people in the gp even know what that is. Many also unfortunatly agree with her. So the "crime" isn't percieved to be that severe in the gp's eyes. I think Lizzo is a better example. She's internet cancelled before she's even convicted of anything. She might bounce back (doubt it), but i don't think she'll do as well as previously. Harry is accused of being a zion*st and supporting genocide. I think that's a worse "crime" among the gp and his target audience than the crimes of jkr and lizzo.

I think it all depends on a lot of things. How the situation in Gaza develops, how many other fuck ups H does, how much he stunts, how much he "queerbaits", how good his album is and how he choose to promote it. Despite people not being happy with him for different reasons right now, i don't think it will impact him much. We'll have to see. I'm pretty sure that no matter how he does, he could have done even better if he fixed his zionis* reputation and the queerbaiter reputation.

He'd probably lose all his wealthy American fans if he spoke out against Israel so he's not doing to do it. Not everyone supports Palestine. Tumblr gives a false impression because 70% of users are under 21 (according to tumblr polls).

I'm not saying he needs to speak out against Isr*el. Or support Palestine. I'm saying he should demand a ceasefire and state he doesn’t support genocide. That's saying murder is bad, and that both parties needs to lay down their weapons. It's a pretty neutral and basic statement.

Not everyone supports Palestine, that's true, but most people are against genocide and want a ceasefire. Regardless of that, H's target audience are millenials and gen z, where most people want a ceasefire and to stop genocide from happening. If he loses some zio*ist fans then so be it, he's already lost a million for not speaking up. I can't imagine there being that many zion*sts among his millenial and gen z fans. It's not the fans that's the reason he's not speaking up, it's his label, management and friends and the brand deals he has.

If engagement is down its because his own fans are constantly hating on him and trying to cancel him. So where are fans who don't see things in black and white and are ready to write him off supposed to engage in harry fandom content?

Jeez, anon. Idk, i think a genocide is pretty black and white, it's murder. Either you are for or against. Most people think murder is bad in all circumstances. I think stopping genocide is a bit more important than you getting your harry content...

#harry image #zionism #queerbaiting #fandom #solo harry #tw jk rowling #lizzo for ts

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thepoliticalvulcan · 38 minutes

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If this is the result of America trying to leave the Middle East without really leaving the Middle East, just give it to China. The problems that white people cause aren’t going to be solved by white people. America needs to be isolated until it can start acting right.

I have mixed feelings on this. First off in the post I think you're responding to, I'm giving my take on what I think Team Biden's worldview is. I agree with part of it, but other parts I think are some mix of tragically idealistic and outright nihilistic.

I don't like my taxes being used to support wanton murder regardless of what system of government it is or how vile the alleged target is. The means too often sabotage the ends and they sabotage the ends so thoroughly that they lead to very reasonable questions about whether the stated ends are the real ends, or if the real ends are the ones being stated by the likes of Ben Gvir and Netanyahu's son.

There are a whole range of regimes and situations that I think would get a whole lot worse without some threat of US retaliation, if not militarily, then cutting of the purse strings. I wouldn't expect a regime actively engaged in one genocide to be overly sentimental if the Saudis took another stab at invading Yemen and once again managed to succeed at killing everyone and anyone except actual combatants. Same with Israel and Lebanon.

A Middle East that throws in with China is also a Middle East that is indirectly or even directly helping Russia in its invasion of Ukraine and possibly other ex-USSR states. IF Putin is insane (and I don't really think he is, but it can never be ruled out) he might flirt with poking nations covered by NATO and Article 5. Which would be very bad under the worst case scenario.

Although there again, while invading Ukraine in the first place is held up as an example of Putin being "insane" this war has also managed to not go nuclear despite it lasting almost three years at this point and the indirect involvement of multiple nuclear powers on Ukraine's side, and the French flat out admitting they are in country providing some sort of aid. Probably not direct combat aid, probably more of a support role, but still, its a dicey thing, but also a testament that Putin is a bad person who may have made a catastrophic error in judgment that he has spent tens of thousands of lives doubling down on, but not nuclear war crazy.

So my main thinking about US involvement in the Middle East is the pogrom treadmill. Even the current invasion of Gaza is in some fashion an X order consequence of the original sin of invading Iraq. That was stupid and evil. It also isn't something that can be undone and leaving the region entirely isn't necessarily something I think automatically wipes the ledger clean.

Maybe it does and maybe it doesn't. If there's ten more pogroms in the region or ISIL gets up off the mat, how much of that is on us? Not all of it, but some of it to be sure. We may not have set the last dominoes to fall in motion, but we sure set the first ones in motion.

Of course there's a deeply pessimistic reading of the last two decades that says we can't know how many pogroms the US has prevented by wrapping Saudi Arabia et al. around our finger, but we can certainly measure how many have happened as a direct result of the instability caused by the US screwing with the equilibrium between the regional powers, different sects etc. A pessimistic reading of recent history that says that claiming we're a stabilizing force is just an excuse, a modernized version of the White Man's Burden.

The part of me that is very committed to Virtue Ethics says I want to reduce my overall share of responsibility for the killing of any noncombatant, regardless of their ideological or religious convictions, who happens to be within the blast radius of a JDAM dropped on a suspected terrorist.

The part of me that knows a stopped clock is right twice a day would likely feel just as guilty over whatever happens after the US leaves the Middle East to a China that most certainly will not have campus protesters and pockets of Muslim voters in key districts threatening to unseat Xi.

I also know we're probably not going to be able to do better than we did, morally or diplomatically, than we have. We're unlikely to ever have a State Department as skilled, funded, and staffed as the one that negotiated the Iran Nuclear Deal or a population that is as squeamish about civilian deaths as it is now. So maybe we should rip the band aid off and let the chips fall where they may.

#foucault's boomerang #iran #red sea #blowback #israel #saudi arabia #gaza #colonialism

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trinity9139 · 4 months

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hey. this might be silly but i kind of wanted to get a second opinion/get it off my chest. i've been reading communist theory + been an advocate for communism in my community for many years now. i frequently have "friendly debates" with my mom, who is... kinda all over the political spectrum, some kinda weird lib center situation. doesn't matter. anyway, israel has been a point of contention between us since always. i remember an argument that broke out during a road trip, which even involved my aunt and cousin too (effectively a 3v1), when i expressed that israel is america's puppet state, that israel shouldn't exist, etc. and i just find myself feeling so much *anger* with them these days, because none of my family is any longer pro-israel—but it took a genocide for them and PEOPLE LIKE THEM! to see it? it took a genocide for them and people like them to care? i was deemed a prejudiced antisemitist by my family and people like them for years, and it took barbaric violence and bombing and murder and torture for them to see it? it's not an "i told you so" kind of situation. i can't and won't gloat like that, not about this. i just feel such anger. we haven't spoken about israel in a long time, months now, but with every piece of information that comes out of gaza, i just feel so angry with them. it's beginning to impact my relationship with my family. and my mother in particular is sorry, i know she is. but is sorry enough? she and people like her and the resulting unequivocal global support for israel partly contributed to the ongoing, 75-year-long palestinian genocide. how do i forgive that?

Unfortunately, propaganda is a very effective tool, and the reaction that has been groomed, and invited for years involving condemnation of Israel is, "oh? You don't think Israel deserves to exist? Guess you're a rabid antisemite who hates Jews and wants a second Holocaust!" And it cannot necessarily be blamed fully on them, and as the recent events have shown, it has helped them to realize the actual extent of Israel's crimes. The United States has used Zionism to create a settler colonial ethnostate that will secure a permanent US presence in West Asia, however what you'd be taught in school is that we gave the Jews a homeland after the last evil antisemite was killed in Germany. Unfortunately I'm a cringe little liberation theologist, so I believe in having grace with people, even though your family did all those things, I think them seeing this with their own eyes, for all the world to see, has changed their views, and that is how growing as a person works, so I encourage you, do not stop talking about it, open their eyes to even more, show them how they've been deceived, lied to, and manipulated to support a genocidal state, and see how quickly a worldview begins to change.

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svartikotturinn · 7 years

Conversation

Discussing American politics with an American politics & history connoisseur, pt. 2

I talked to my good friend ‘Twenty-One’, a Californian Paleocon who’s read lots about US history and politics, and asked for his take on Trump’s presidency. Here it is.

[2017-02-04 06.55.17] Twenty-One: My take is that I'm glad Clinton isn't in the White House. Otherwise, my primary note is surprisingly, he kept his word on ending the TPP, and his Supreme Court nomination was completely regular

[2017-02-04 06.55.52] Twenty-One: I find his mannerisms annoying and the tweeting strange, but most of the clickbait articles about his administration have little of substance when I read them

[2017-02-04 06.56.17] Twenty-One: I am still waiting to see if he will indeed make the GOP more friendly to LGBT, that's a major concern of mine

[2017-02-04 06.57.26] Twenty-One: As for the attempts to renegotiate NAFTA, I agree with the spirit but I do not know how practical it is

[2017-02-04 06.59.35] Twenty-One: One thing I have noted is that this election officially confirms my suspicion that your average center-of-left American is just as stupid and reactionary as your average center-of-right

[2017-02-04 07.00.07] Twenty-One: Much as the right-wing overreacted and vilified Obama over literally anything, I am seeing the same for Trump, even over mundane administrative details

[2017-02-04 07.00.12] Twenty-One: With the primary cause being misleading headlines

[2017-02-04 07.00.47] Twenty-One: Also, a fun piece of trivia is that I'm doing a report on the (now defunct) TPP for my International Business class, so my expertise is being applied to it

[2017-02-04 07.07.01] Twenty-One: Anyway, I am still as skeptical as pre-election, but it's still so incredibly early into the presidency, anyone making analyses right now is grasping at straws

[2017-02-04 08.24.17] An Cat Dubh: What’s wrong with the TPP?

Also, isn’t the judge he picked openly opposed to Roe v. Wade and equal marriage?

[2017-02-04 08.29.16] An Cat Dubh: What about the travel ban he established?

[2017-02-04 08.30.18] An Cat Dubh: And, unbelievably, he’s actually trying to build the fucking wall

[2017-02-04 09.16.17] Twenty-One: The TPP is an extremely long and complex trade agreement, but a key part I disliked was that it gave corporations greater legal power in suing nations

[2017-02-04 09.16.48] Twenty-One: The judge he picked has written extensively against activist judicial styles, to overturn Roe v Wade would be judicial activism

[2017-02-04 09.16.59] Twenty-One: the entire point of being a good judge is that you will make rulings your personal morals do not agree with

[2017-02-04 09.17.41] Twenty-One: The travel ban does not bother me in the slightest, the list of nations is even a bit lazy in that they carved it from a list created by the Obama admin of unstable nations

[2017-02-04 09.18.15] Twenty-One: It's not a Muslim ban, as the headlines call it, because it only applies to the 7 nations in question, and it's also only binding for 90 days, as I recall

[2017-02-04 09.18.38] Twenty-One: And technically we have had border fencing along the US-Mexico border for nearly eleven years

[2017-02-04 09.19.06] Twenty-One: It's just not continuous due to the sheer expanse of land we're talking about

[2017-02-04 09.19.11] An Cat Dubh: True, but that’s 3 months during which people are stuck in a country where they’re likely to be killed

[2017-02-04 09.19.25] Twenty-One: Just because they can't go to the US, does not mean they are bound in their home nations

[2017-02-04 09.20.03] Twenty-One: Not only that, but I do not consider it the US' (or the West's, for that matter) responsibility to house all people who desire it

[2017-02-04 09.20.30] An Cat Dubh: But those people have been vetted.

[2017-02-04 09.20.34] Twenty-One: People are dying and suffering by quite large numbers in the Middle East and much of Southeastern Asia

[2017-02-04 09.21.09] Twenty-One: That doesn't mean we stop acting as a sovereign nation first and a philanthropist second

[2017-02-04 09.22.03] Twenty-One: Again, it's a temporary stay, and personally I am skeptical about the degree of vetting that can occur for people from nations with terrible infrastructure and record keeping.

[2017-02-04 09.22.26] Twenty-One: And again, they can migrate without necessarily coming to the USA.

[2017-02-04 09.22.57] Twenty-One: Fleeing instability and war as a refugee does not mean that every locale will welcome you, but there are so many that remaining in those nations is completely unnecessary.

[2017-02-04 09.23.09] An Cat Dubh: They’ve been vetted by the US, that’s where they got their visa to, isn’t it?

[2017-02-04 09.24.12] Twenty-One: I'm sure that their cases vary in their circumstances, some are no doubt vetted significantly

[2017-02-04 09.25.44] Twenty-One: Most of the particularly unsavory incidences I read about, were actually mistakes on the part of airports in enforcing the law on people who should not have flagged it

[2017-02-04 09.26.38] An Cat Dubh: Because it was done hastily and sloppily

[2017-02-04 09.26.54] Twenty-One: Indeed it was

[2017-02-04 09.28.50] Twenty-One: I would certainly argue that it should have been done with more refinement and advanced planning

[2017-02-04 09.29.01] Twenty-One: But that's not a condemnation of the concept itself

[2017-02-04 09.30.20] An Cat Dubh: Didn’t he ban specifically 7 countries that had never had any terrorists come from them to the US?

[2017-02-04 09.30.41] Twenty-One: Yes, but that's a completely arbitrary metric

[2017-02-04 09.30.54] An Cat Dubh: Huh?

[2017-02-04 09.30.57] Twenty-One: Nations not historically having terrorists, does not mean they are not risky populations in their current climate

[2017-02-04 09.31.09] Twenty-One: Not to mention, terrorism is not the only concern with people from those nations

[2017-02-04 09.31.25] Twenty-One: They can live without blowing things up and still be Islamic fundamentalists

[2017-02-04 09.32.07] An Cat Dubh: That’s what Trump talks about though. The ‘bad dudes’ who can commit the next 9/11 or Boston bombing or San Bernardino shooting

[2017-02-04 09.34.45] Twenty-One: Sure, but based on his style that's because it's low-hanging fruit to appeal to people's fears, I'd say.

[2017-02-04 09.35.22] An Cat Dubh: So what reasoning is there behind the ban?

[2017-02-04 09.43.46] An Cat Dubh: (Sorry, internet is wonky)

[2017-02-04 09.44.54] Twenty-One: Like I said, I suspect it's both suspicion of risk of terrorism, because the nations' situation in the past was quite different from what it is now, and apprehension about accepting refugees who won't assimilate into American society well

[2017-02-04 09.46.43] An Cat Dubh: Can you give me an example of a threatening de-stabilization? I suspect I might be out of touch with the news in those areas

[2017-02-04 09.48.23] Twenty-One: Iraq is currently embroiled with ISIS

[2017-02-04 09.48.42] Twenty-One: Syria is still a broken shithole destroyed by civil war

[2017-02-04 09.49.07] Twenty-One: Libya has not really recovered and become a functional nation post-Libyan conflict from several years ago

[2017-02-04 09.49.46] Twenty-One: Somalia has their own ISIS-esque group that they're contending with (I don't recall if it's a splinter faction or just similar)

[2017-02-04 09.49.56] Twenty-One: I admittedly don't know about Sudan

[2017-02-04 09.50.00] An Cat Dubh: The people blocked from Iraq are interpreters and collaborators

[2017-02-04 09.50.08] Twenty-One: and I believe Yemen is also experiencing civil war

[2017-02-04 09.51.04] An Cat Dubh: Did Trump order to ban people who’ve already been vetted or was that a mistake on the airports’ part or whatever?

[2017-02-04 09.51.53] Twenty-One: I don't know.

[2017-02-04 09.54.24] An Cat Dubh: Hrm.

About the judge. you said he was against judicial activism, but wasn’t Roe v. Wade and marriage equality just that? Wouldn’t he repeal those because of his stance?

[2017-02-04 09.54.38] Twenty-One: That's not what being against judicial activism means.

[2017-02-04 09.55.03] Twenty-One: Common law is based on precedent, and Roe v. Wade and gay marriage are the current precedent and law of the land.

[2017-02-04 09.55.17] Twenty-One: It would be activist to overturn them.

[2017-02-04 09.55.29] An Cat Dubh: OK.

[2017-02-04 09.56.02] Twenty-One: The best way to think of it is that judicial activism is not just code for "progressive judges"

[2017-02-04 09.56.17] Twenty-One: it refers to all rulings that are agenda-setting, whether they're left- or right-leaning, rather than following the law

[2017-02-04 09.58.06] An Cat Dubh: I get that. What I asked was about him determining it’s OK to commit it for the sake of undoing a previous act of judicial activism

[2017-02-04 09.58.29] Twenty-One: Generally no.

[2017-02-04 09.58.34] Twenty-One: Even if it was activism before

[2017-02-04 09.58.37] Twenty-One: It is still the precedent now.

[2017-02-04 09.58.46] An Cat Dubh: I see

[2017-02-04 09.58.51] Twenty-One: hence why being a judge means making rulings you may not personally agree with

[2017-02-04 09.59.22] Twenty-One: Your job (according to this philosophy) is to rule based on the existing common law cases, not to rule how you think it should be

[2017-02-04 09.59.39] Twenty-One: And even if it was activism, Roe v. Wade is now a US common law precedent.

[2017-02-04 09.59.43] Twenty-One: As is gay marriage.

[2017-02-04 09.59.49] An Cat Dubh: OK.

[2017-02-04 10.00.15] An Cat Dubh: What about the whole ‘move the embassy to Jerusalem’ thing?

[2017-02-04 10.01.16] Twenty-One: Seems callous, but only time will tell if it's actually worth paying attention to.

[2017-02-04 10.01.42] An Cat Dubh: Why the fuck is he on about it

[2017-02-04 10.02.03] Twenty-One: Main thing that comes to mind is appealing to the pro-Israel chunk of the GOP

[2017-02-04 10.02.41] An Cat Dubh: That’s not pro-Israel. That dumb fuck is gonna drag this country into a huge, senseless war

[2017-02-04 10.02.52] Twenty-One: I didn't say it was pro-Israel

[2017-02-04 10.02.59] Twenty-One: Being technical, it's pro-GOP-that-is-pro-Israel

[2017-02-04 10.03.00] An Cat Dubh: Or, in his care, yuge

[2017-02-04 10.03.02] Twenty-One: Do you see the difference?

[2017-02-04 10.03.21] Twenty-One: It's about Israel, but not really.

[2017-02-04 10.03.57] Twenty-One: It's really about trying to get the GOP to accept him; remember, Trump is not a conservative and many traditional Republicans dislike or outright hate him

[2017-02-04 10.04.16] An Cat Dubh: So he’s basically making cheap political gain on our backs.

[2017-02-04 10.06.43] Twenty-One: That's my personal opinion.

[2017-02-04 10.07.10] An Cat Dubh: What’s he gonna do when war does happen here?

[2017-02-04 10.07.17] Twenty-One: Who can say?

[2017-02-04 10.07.55] Twenty-One: Due to his seeming actual intention of trying to keep a fair amount of his campaign messages to his base, which included not being a warhawk compared to Hillary

[2017-02-04 10.08.05] Twenty-One: (with some commenters going so far as to call Trump pseudo-isolationist)

[2017-02-04 10.08.19] An Cat Dubh: Pseudo?

[2017-02-04 10.08.35] Twenty-One: True isolationism cannot exist in the way it did in the early 20th century.

[2017-02-04 10.08.44] Twenty-One: Modern telecommunications and trade make it impossible.

[2017-02-04 10.08.56] An Cat Dubh: I see

[2017-02-04 10.09.40] An Cat Dubh: What about his racist dog whistles?

[2017-02-04 10.10.32] Twenty-One: Such as?

[2017-02-04 10.10.52] An Cat Dubh: ‘America first’ is an obvious example

[2017-02-04 10.10.55] Twenty-One: No, it isn't.

[2017-02-04 10.11.14] Twenty-One: America first is absolutely not racist dog whistling and I am admittedly a bit incensed at the suggestion.

[2017-02-04 10.12.00] Twenty-One: It is an appeal to a somewhat common sentiment in the United States that being the world's sole superpower has resulted in our Federal Government paying more attention to other nations and their peoples over Americans

[2017-02-04 10.12.54] Twenty-One: That particular phrasing is one I agree with, I think our government's focus should be more internal, both to be more attentive to domestic problems and to limit our global interference with the nations of others

[2017-02-04 10.13.45] An Cat Dubh: http.//edition.cnn.com/2016/04/27/opinions/trump-america-first-ugly-echoes-dunn/

[2017-02-04 10.14.47] Twenty-One: That's an opinion.

[2017-02-04 10.15.18] Twenty-One: America First is not at all an unusual combination of words.

[2017-02-04 10.16.01] Twenty-One: If I so wished, I could probably make most political campaign slogans sound quite devious or find similar or even the same slogan being used by unsavory types in the past.

[2017-02-04 10.16.03] An Cat Dubh: But its use as a political slogan is very particular

[2017-02-04 10.16.33] An Cat Dubh: Damn that took forever to send

[2017-02-04 10.16.52] An Cat Dubh: Can you give an example?

[2017-02-04 10.17.02] Twenty-One: An example I saw someone else make was

[2017-02-04 10.18.03] Twenty-One: Give me a second

[2017-02-04 10.19.59] Twenty-One: Gerald Ford's campaign slogan in 1976 was

[2017-02-04 10.20.09] Twenty-One: "He's making us proud again"

[2017-02-04 10.20.34] Twenty-One: Restoration of pride was a major theme that allowed the Nazis to take power in Germany following the Weimar Republic

[2017-02-04 10.21.00] Twenty-One: The fact is that slogans by their nature will draw from simple ideas

[2017-02-04 10.21.09] Twenty-One: And that people of very different backgrounds may use the same slogan components

[2017-02-04 10.21.35] Twenty-One: Especially since nothing forbids an organization from naming itself yadda yadda, other than copyright and trademark.

[2017-02-04 10.22.29] Twenty-One: I could make a brotherhood named "Lodge for Brotherhood, Education and Technology" and be a total fuckjob nut who believes in Anarchism

[2017-02-04 10.22.43] Twenty-One: That wouldn't make a politician talking about brotherhood, education and technology an anarchist

[2017-02-04 10.23.03] An Cat Dubh: I see

[2017-02-04 10.23.19] An Cat Dubh: Back to the TPP though

[2017-02-04 10.23.38] Twenty-One: I honestly will be better able to discuss it when I've done the research for my presentation

[2017-02-04 10.23.56] Twenty-One: The extra power granted to corporations alone was enough for me to dislike it

[2017-02-04 10.24.14] An Cat Dubh: Do you think whatever Trump wants to replace it with something that won’t give them that power?

[2017-02-04 10.24.14] Twenty-One: But in the coming weeks I'll learn entirely too much about it

[2017-02-04 10.24.32] Twenty-One: Trump isn't likely to try and suggest a replacement for that.

[2017-02-04 10.25.03] Twenty-One: The TPP, being a trade agreement that existed between a number of nations, is not something one can simply "replace," especially since Trump campaigned on and actually followed through in dismantling it

[2017-02-04 10.25.24] An Cat Dubh: So what’s he gonna do?

[2017-02-04 10.25.24] Twenty-One: National will toward agreements like that is always changing

[2017-02-04 10.25.32] Twenty-One: About what?

[2017-02-04 10.25.39] Twenty-One: The TPP wasn't like, a pressing thing that needed to happen

[2017-02-04 10.25.54] Twenty-One: It was a massive trade agreement, but it's not like its destruction leaves a problem unsolved

[2017-02-04 10.26.33] An Cat Dubh: So he’s just gonna pull out and leave nothing in its place?

[2017-02-04 10.26.51] Twenty-One: That's already what he did

[2017-02-04 10.26.55] Twenty-One: "Leave nothing?"

[2017-02-04 10.26.59] Twenty-One: There already was nothing.

[2017-02-04 10.27.02] Twenty-One: It was a proposal.

[2017-02-04 10.27.20] An Cat Dubh: Ah. I thought it was already in place

[2017-02-04 10.27.26] Twenty-One: No, it was a proposed trade agreement

[2017-02-04 10.27.37] Twenty-One: However, due to our marketplace and general economic significance

[2017-02-04 10.27.46] Twenty-One: our withdrawal is a near certain death for the agreement

[2017-02-04 10.28.01] An Cat Dubh: OK.

[2017-02-04 10.28.17] An Cat Dubh: Well, I’m somewhat calmer now.

[2017-02-04 10.28.21] An Cat Dubh: Thanks =)

#Twenty-One #US politics #Donald Trump #TPP #Trans-Pacific Partnership

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