#i wonder if they also have historical rpf debates | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

thebaffledcaptain · 8 months

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Can you give an example (not name-and-shaming, just something vague or generic) to illustrate what you mean about people blorbo-ifying historical figures? I'm wondering how much of what you're interpreting as that is people intentionally stepping off the path of history to have fun with obviously-fictionalized copies of those characters - versus, for example, those people saying "Hamilton was autistic" because they want to relate to him/take three small misunderstood details and run with it.

I'm leading this with the disclaimer that obviously one post on this topic does not represent my entire view on a subject as nuanced as this, and the disclaimer that I have never and will never specifically go in and call particular people out on it because that's just an asshole move and ultimately not a respectful or effective way to confront stuff like this (not that I thought you were implying either of those things, anon).

The biggest specification I can make is that I'm not talking about already fictionalized versions of these historical figures when I complain about this kind of thing: I am of the belief that a fandom side of history can exist and that is not inherently a bad thing. The problem occurs when the lines between "fandom" and "history" become blurred, often unintentionally, and frequently as a result of people's genuine interest in these (fictionalized representations of) historical figures. History-inspired and history-based media, as well as interactions with it, are not inherently wrong as long as they're not claiming to be actual history. Like, as much as most of us cringe to look at it, I think if Miku Binder Thomas Jefferson could exist solely in the contextual void of the Hamilton musical, that's honestly not the worst thing in the world. (Honestly, I can't know for sure the artist's true views on the subject, but I feel like something that exaggerated could be indicative that they're not talking about the historical figure Thomas Jefferson himself, but specifically this fictional Hamilton musical version.)

But as I said, I think there does result a lot of genuine interest (which is great!) in the history and the figures behind the fandom stuff, which often leads to the blurring of these lines—people learning more, becoming passionate, but mistakenly and probably unintentionally equating these historical figures with their fictional representations and treating them like they would any fictional character. I don't, like, personally hold a hatred for these people because I think most of the time it goes unrecognized. It's more of a result of ignorance or misunderstanding of historiography than it is a genuine disrespect for learning history.

So anyway, to provide an actual example like you asked, I'll say writing fanfiction about characters while claiming they are the actual historical figures. Writing fanfiction for a history-based fandom, or creating fictional characters inspired by them, is one thing, but doing it for the actual genuine figures from history is another. I recognize that this might be partly a result of my personal philosophy on the whole RPF issue, but the idea of treating real people like characters without their consent has never sat right with me. I suppose you could debate the ethics of them already being dead, but still, as a principle, I am of the philosophy that one should treat other people as people, and I find it very weird to treat them as characters when they are still people, however long dead they are. I don't love certain types of historical fiction for this same reason, so I hope it doesn't exclusively come off as a fandom thing. I think this is one of those places where these figures' relatability is indeed an important perspective, because it reminds us of the fact that they were just like you and me, and thus I see it as important to treat them as such: not with blind respect and reverence, but also not with a disregard for their real human existence.

Other stuff has the same sorts of issues: making headcanons, certain fanart, slapping labels on people without leaving room for nuance (I can't put everything under a blanket statement, obviously). It's because of how close I feel to history that I take issue with this stuff—because I always, always want to recognize that above all, these people were people, and I need to acknowledge them as people. In a certain sense I aim to treat them the way I want to be treated, like I'd do for any of my fellow humans (with the obvious nuance that comes from academic perspectives and such), because again, they're people too.

On the issue of relatabilty, I certainly don't think it's wrong to assess evidence through the perspective a modern lens, nor do I think it's wrong to want to relate to these figures. I simply think that we need to be able to acknowledge that great truth of historiography, which is that there are so many things we just can't know. In researching history our goal is essentially to develop assumptions based on the evidence available to us—I hesitate to even use the phrase "draw conclusions" because that suggests arriving at a level of certainty we will unfortunately never be able to have. So, you know, I don't think it's necessarily wrong to say that, like, the real Alexander Hamilton was likely what we would consider bisexual nowadays, or something like that. But I also wouldn't say that we could claim with 100% certainty that he was or that he wasn't. As for the fictional interpretation of him from the musical, yeah, whatever, that's a character, you're free to interpret him how you wish as long as you're not equating him with the actual figure. We can't necessarily, for example, impose headcanons from the musical onto our perceptions of the real people.

On a tangentially related note I also feel that we tend to have an obsession with "relatability" in characters, and historical figures as an extension of that. As a whole we could stand to learn more about how to love both characters and people without having to relate to them. Which is not to say you can't love them for that, but... we also don't need to be going out of our ways to interpret them as being relatable to us in order to love them, which is where the problem lies. That's where this problematic lack of actual history comes from. In the same ways that you don't need to, and probably shouldn't, endorse all their opinions, you don't need to relate to them in every way in order to love them as a historical figure. Love is a complicated thing and I am frankly thankful that it is.

Anyway, this is getting very long. My main point is that history and fandom can coexist, but they call for different treatments and shouldn't ever be equated. I'm not specifically condemning anyone—as I said, I think most of it is well-intentioned interest that gets a little out of hand. I've been guilty of it myself before and I don't want anyone to assume that I think I'm "above" it; I just try to be hyper-aware of it. I love that people discover interests in history through fandom, I just think being mindful is absolutely imperative when you're engaging with it. You can, and should, love history—just be careful that you're not bending the truth in order to do that.

#gosh sorry lol I have a lot of thoughts about this but I hope this kind of explains my perspective better #I appreciate the nuanced discussion on this #i also think this is a problem especially prevalent in but not confined to amrev fandoms #which is highly exacerbated by the fact that there is no way to filter the fandom vs. history content on tumblr so it all just mingles #which is frequently confusing for one thing but also involves what I believe to be an unhealthy mixing of attitudes #which ideally should not be mixed #historyposting #historyroasting #historiography #the captain answers #long post

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heroes-never-discourse · 5 years

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Want an ace perspective on RPF and “let people be just friends” stuff?

I’ve got a platonic life partner. Everyone thinks we’re lovers. It feels like my identity is being invalidated. Like…the dysphoria I get when people think I’m cis. I’m being erased, and nothing I can say will make them believe me. They’ll “wink, wink, nudge, nudge” me, try to prove I’m lying, or accuse me of not trusting them. It’s awful. And then I’ll see the same behavior online.

To be clear: fictional shipping has never bugged me, except if the person is demanding their HC be canon and saying aros are homophobic for platonic-shipping. I might get a little depressed if I can’t find ANY friends fic, but that’s what my keyboard is for. However, as you have commented before, people “ship” real life people, too. Around the time my partner and I moved in together, I suddenly noticed every time a historical blog said close friends were actually lovers. Whereas before I either thought it was cool or didn’t think much about it, now it gave me an uncomfortable feeling. I worried that if I became a historical figure, I’d be “shipped” like that, too. (I also had this concern about being trans. I haven’t seen any historical examples of trans men. Everyone says “they just dressed as men to avoid misogyny.” I worry that everything about who I am will be erased.) I started wondering how many of the historical figures were actually just friends, and how many were lovers.

Gay people are erased from history. I’m very sure that a lot of historical figures that we suspect were lovers, were actually lovers. The “shipping” of anyone who was close to their same gender is a clear reaction to the homophobic erasure throughout history. I don’t have a problem with that. But I wonder if there’s room for other identities. Take Sappho, for instance. There are people who debate if she was bi or a lesbian. I’ve seen many people get very angry when someone takes one side or the other. (I guess my issue there is with the classic “your headcanons are not canon” shtick. So much of her art was destroyed. It’s a miracle we know who she was at all.)

For myself, I hate RPF with a passion, because I live in an RPF. I worry that the real people being written about will see it and feel violated, like I feel. The ones that use dead people are at least tolerable, because those people aren’t around to see it. (Unless it’s like the time an author wrote about a humiliating moment with their dying aunt, saying “she would hate for anyone to see her like this.” My religion respects the dead’s wishes, and that was…I don’t read anything by that author. I won’t ever.)

I won’t make any moral declarations, because obviously, my feelings are very involved in this. This perspective is solely based my feelings. But I wanted you to know where I was coming from.

(submitted by anon)

#anonymous online #no commentary because I totally understand where you're coming from and your perspective is important #thank you for sharing!#submission

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