#i want canon macden but in a “you never loved me. you never even liked me!” “I USED TOO!” way | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

charmac · 1 year

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Heyo! I'd be interested to hear your theories on the macdennis writer's room situation!

IMO it's not as simple as 'Rob is pro and Glenn is anti' (and we always ignore Charlie in these conversations even though he's quite into it in the dvd commentary and pod), so your suggestion that the subtlety (lol it's really not subtle, but yeah r/iasip ig) in the writing of their relationship might be glenn's idea is quite intriguing to me, and I wonder how this all relates to the opposing views on whether Dennis is a serial killer amongst rcg. So much of the writing of Dennis comes from Charlie and also Rob, but it's definitely influenced by them observing Glenn (like the cereal story) and by Glenn's performance. And ofc we know Glenn pushes back if Dennis is written as too heartless because he maintains that he does have feelings and is quite sensitive in a way. Not sure where I'm going with this... I don't have a full theory fleshed out in my head yet, so I'd really like to hear your thoughts!

(not trying to stir anything with this ask btw: in fact, iirc there were some posts about this subject a few months ago and I didn't engage then because it pissed me off when the conversation turned into a "who supports the quuer fans more" kind of competition, as if macden is something so basic between rob and glenn, when we really have no evidence about what happens fr bts, beyond some fun speculation. just enjoy theorizing in drought times.)

Hey, thanks for the ask! To address your final point first, I don't want to talk publicly about what may or may not be the motivations of Glenn and Rob as "queer allies" or how they think this may affect their careers or whatnot. These kinds of discussions I don't believe are ever effective publicly when you don't know the truth. I'm not speculating on their motivations as people but as writers who care about the story they're telling and, more importantly, their characters.

When my message was "anti" and "pro" it was really just from the discussion that someone had to be pushing back against what I believe is Rob pushing forward (This was a black and white, who wants Macden now and who is saying no, wait. I truly do and always have believed Macden will happen. The nuanced discussion came after, in messages I'd rather not share since they are not just my personal thoughts but a conversation with another user.) I

t's not necessarily that Glenn is anti-Macdennis (and I think you understand that) and I want to clarify first off that I definitely don't think it's as simple as that, so here we go:

For Glenn pushing the subtlety, I think we agree completely that it likely links to how Glenn wants the audience to perceive his character (and how I love perceiving him): Dennis talks a big game that to the untrained eye makes him seem like this cold-blooded psychopath, but it's all a complete front you can easily see through. He gets a thrill out of these terrible things but would never act on them. It's interesting to hear of the live show "Dennis is a serial killer" talk brought up right along side all of this, because it's a perfect example of how Rob and Glenn clearly have opposing views on Dennis' character, and how that definitely plays into why they don't agree on canonising Macdennis. (As I understand, Dennis gets a thrill out of the idea of murder or harming people, but he could never act on it. Reddit (and to some lesser degree, Rob), don't get this, and think he probably does act on it and it's just not shown in canon (despite the mountains of evidence that Dennis is much too weak and feeble to ever do anything).

If you think about their current dynamic (actually, ignore 15, we'll get there), they've completely flipped from early seasons, and I don't think that's accidental or a fault of bad writing, I think it 1. is a result of Mac labelling himself as gay, finally, in S12 and 2. is a result of Glenn continuing to fight for Dennis' character staying consistent.

From point 1: Dennis was always the more effeminate, more coded to like men one, more touchy with Mac, a little obviously in love with him, until Mac outwardly expressed those feelings back. As early as M&DBU you can see how terrified Dennis is of being seen as gay, and in a relationship with Mac. For Dennis, as gay as it got, it was okay until it was labelled. Now that Mac is labelling himself as gay, now there's a hard stop for Dennis. Being with Mac is something Dennis could act on, and then be labelled as. (gay, bi, likes men, fucking Mac, boyfriend *shutters*) This is something that would happen if he didn't keep full, hard control against it.

To point 2: I think this was a bit of a divide in the writers room that Glenn couldn't control. S12 he bowed out, clearly he was feeling lost in Dennis and the writers room. When he left for S13 and 14, and you can see how Rob's want for Mac to be out, canon, very gay, in love with Dennis, comes through full-speed in these seasons, because Glenn wasn't writing (mostly). Rob wanting this directly conflicts with Glenn's writing for Dennis. Dennis is opposing Mac in every way, he has this exterior he has to put on, anti-Mac, anti-whatever they were, he's completely thrown off by Mac, hates their old dynamic.

Rob wants canon Macden, but he perceives Dennis differently than Glenn does, and likes this opposing path of the two of them, and that's obviously creating an issue. Clearly I don't know Rob's intentions, and maybe I'm talking out of my ass, but I don't think I'd be far off to say that he'd enjoy putting Macdennis through some desperation-hell (ala, Dennis gives in and gets with Mac because he's horny, uses him, DENNIS systems him, the result is Mac has always been the long-con for Dennis, which I admit, I wouldn't hate hate).

I think Glenn is against it, because there's always been something there for Dennis and there's a reason he came back, there's a reason he's always stayed around, always supported Mac. He is in love with Mac. It's not a system or a game, but a fucking fight for his life to oppose his true feelings and hide his identity, not be labelled. Dennis is stuck, and there's nothing pushing him to do anything about it. He'll get off with his systems and his kinks and he's okay.

Now we move to S15 and look, they aren't...all that opposing...during Lockdown, they...got along. And then, here goes Dennis, yelling and screaming about Mac obsessing over his own labels and identity so he can ignore his internal struggle. It's clear, he needs something to push him.

How do they go about it? Dennis jealousy arc seems like the perfect fucking beautiful compromise. Rob gets something raw, a little insane from Dennis, and Glenn gets to show that Dennis really is in fucking love with Mac.

TL;DR: Rob wants Macden now in some kind of dirty, get on with it, Dennis is using Mac kind of way. Glenn doesn't want it canon until they reach the conclusion of this arc that shows Dennis really does have big feelings (good and bad), and those feelings really kinda have a lot to do with Mac.

AGAIN THESE ARE JUST MY THOUGHTS AND I OFTEN WATCH THIS SHOW WHILE HIGH OR CROSS FADED SO IF YOU DISAGREE THATS TOTALLY 100% OKAY I DO NOT CARE IF YOU READ ALL THIS AND THINK IM STUPID OR WAY TOO INSANE ABOUT THIS ALL THATS TOTALLY VALID FOR YOU TO SAY! IF THERES NO JEALOUSY ARC IN s16 I AM A CLOWNNNNN!!!

#ask #macden #sorry this took me like an hour to write

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lambsmain · 1 year

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charmacden and chardee for the ask game! oh and deetress:)

Oooh!! lovely selection; Deetress is one of those ships that I don't NOT ship, but I wouldn't say I actively ship them. I think the don't ship questions will have more interesting answers, but yea I am totally not against the idea of the ship at all.

(Putting this under a cut cause it became quite long.)

What made me ship it?

Charmacden: I've always been a charmac shipper, since I started watching sunny in +/- 2014. Cause I'm a sucker for childhood friends to lovers and also a Charlie girlie and naturally wanted him included. I can always get into charden, cause while it's not often they do have very genuine moments in the show, but I never really liked the obsessive nature of macden. But then I had a little detour from the sunny fixation that included OFMD among other things, and in that fandom I was a big shipper of Steddyhands, or ed/stede/izzy. I love ed/izzy but adding the Stede to balance out the toxins was pretty perfect. Then I came back to sunny and said heck yea let's slap that dynamic on the guys badabing badaboom. Also it is canon.

Why don't I ship it?

Deetress: Hadn't really occurred to me at all until I started seeing it pop up in tags on ao3. If I'm gonna ship Dee with anyone, I'm more inclined towards Artemis I think. I just don't really see it? I love girls being mean to each other but I don't think there's any tension there. But I get being starved for f/f ships and how if explored more their dynamic could be super interesting.

Chardee: Mostly because of time's up for the gang and the shift that came with that. Before that it was similar to deetress, where I could get behind the ship, but don't actively ship them. I like their dynamic but overall got a little put off by how genuinely mean Charlie is to Dee most of the time (even if its peer pressure; doesn't really have the same vibes as the way the guys are mean to each other.

What are my favorite things about the ship?

Charmacden: It's the best of all of it. Like one part about macdennis and two parts about charden and most things about charmac? why not all of it at once? It has potential for them to be a little jealous and try to outdo each other, it has fluff potential. It could be one pair comes first and the other one joins in; or they've all been unknowingly dating for 10 years and it's time to make it official. It has so many angles to poke it from and that is what makes shipping in fandom fun imo.

What would have made me like it (more)?

Chardee: Me liking charmac less would have helped lol. I'm all for multi-shipping but I do pick favorites. Also if they never went into the times up direction of course.

Deetress: You know what, I think I'm starting to like it more! I was gonna say if they had more interactions in the show that aren't really just about the guys. So the bog in ireland is a very good start. I hope the waitress gets to be cut loose from Charlie plotlines more often.

Is there an unpopular opinion I have on the ship?

Charmacden: I prefer if it's not just sexual and if macden is not the pair that gets together first. Feel like that is a little unpopular based completely on the ao3 tag.

Despite not shipping it, do you have anything positive to say about it?

Chardee: That scene in season 1 where Dee is wearing Charlie's jacket is extremely cute. I love that when they team up they try to accomplish their dreams.

Deetress: I love women and honestly wish I liked this ship more. Maybe I will look into it some more, cause I do love a good bitch for bitch dynamic.

#ty for asking; i love to ramble about stuff like this #ask #iasip

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gubler-garbage · 2 years

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Dude you don’t know how cathartic it is to read your thoughts on the shipping culture in always sunny. Whenever I get into a piece of media for the first time my go-to move to get content about it is to go on tumblr, and when I did that for iasip I genuinely thought I was going crazy. Seeing the sheer amount of shipping posts made in complete sincerity made me wonder if I was missing something? So I suspended my disbelief thinking maybe some crazy shit happened in the seasons I hadn’t seen yet, but lo and behold that’s not the case lmao. Also this is a way smaller thing to complain about but the fandom’s intense focus on Mac and Dennis (on tumblr at least) makes it so there’s way less content for Charlie (that’s how it feels to me, but maybe I’m wrong) which bums me out. Anyway, sorry for the long ask, I just wanted you to know that someone did read your long post and appreciated it a lot.

thanks you so much!! It's been really lovely hearing from y'all. I don't want to come off too critical of the fandom because generally speaking and having been on this garbage site for almost 10 years, the people in this fandom are kind and respectful towards each other with very little vicious or angry discourse and even if I don't agree with quite a few takes, I do enjoy reading what everyone thinks because a lot of y'all have really thoughtful critiques of the show and its creators. It's really just the really hardcore shippy side of the fandom that puts me off a bit. I don't have any problem with shipping or anything, macden is a ton of toxic fun but I definitely agree with you that the way people talk about them as if its not just a ship but a foregone canon conclusion is quite strange honestly. Like I think it would be a really interesting direction for the show but the way people talk about them seems like a incredible reach and a recipe for intense disappointment. I feel like its a more common thing now that people aren't just content with shipping something, they need it to be canon. There is no such thing as a "correct" interpretation of art, interpretations can be ill informed, ignorant etc but it isn't "wrong" and trying to impose your interpretation on others is really just obnoxious. Imo half the fun of shipping is exploring the dynamics of characters that would never be addressed in the show or expanding on different plots or characters that you think are interesting but never really made it to being a large part of the show or movie or whatever. I just personally don't understand this attachment to something being made explicitly canon (but obviously when I say that I'm not referring to queerbaiting and the like from shows like supernatural, I definitely understand where people are coming from with that, like I was a Richonne stan in twd fandom lol). I have seen people try and make the "queerbaiting" argument for sunny and that one really gets me goin like absolutely livid like some of you really love to try and co-opt serious issues of representation for your dumbass shipping discourse, it drives me up a god damn wall. It's really transparent when there is so so (cannot be over expressed) so god damn much to criticise about sunny but (and of course this is only my personal opinion but I feel like it's a pretty solid consensus) the way Mac's sexuality and coming out was treated (in the latter half of the show once the decision was actually made to take that path with his character) was with the utmost reverence and respect that it deserved. Of all the misteps made by sunny Mac's coming out and acceptance is absolutely not one of them. Personally I feel Mac is one of the most important pieces of representation currently on tv and the idea that out of the incredibly long list of criticisms for the show some of the fandom have decided "queer-baiting" is the primary issue is unbelievable to me. Like first of all the fundamental misunderstanding of what the term even means is endlessly frustrating but also reeks of that Community meme "I can excuse racism but I draw the line at my gay ship not being canon". It's petty and childish and devalues all of the very important discussion to be had surrounding representations of queer characters.

I'm so sorry, I got so off track on this one gang. One last thing I really have absolutely no problem with the popularity of macden, they're a real fun ship and people are free to post whatever they please. Personally I love my sweet baby rat boy charlie and wanted to see more of him so I jumped headfirst into that brainrot and made the content myself lol.

Just really wanna reiterate cos I feel like I might come off a bit aggressive in this, I love you macdens y'all are making super cool content and amazing art and if that's the direction the show ends up going I'll be more than happy! All fandoms have some bad takes goin on, thats half the fun lol.

#seriously chase your bliss gang #iasip #ask #one day I will learn to edit myself.... my professors would appreciate it #if you've sent me an ask recently I'm so sorry its taking me so long to get to it #just been a bit busy but I really appreciate them and I wanna take the time to answer them properly

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