#i think a lot about astarion manipulating tav into a relationship in act 1 :^) the way he thinks that's the only way he'll be 'safe'. augh | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

jahiera · 8 months

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How To Know If Your Evil Vampire Boygirlfriend Really Likes You (a meta on Astarion's manipulations of Tav deeper into the romance.)

Okay, this was supposed to be a response to this ask right here, and it got so long I decided to just put it in its own thing for slightly easier reading. Thank you again to the asker for giving me an excuse to go off the rails talking about THE BOY. This also got long enough that it needs. Subheadings. And it is [checks notes] 3.6k words long. If you're interested in skipping the act 2 Scene Breakdown and going straight for the character analysis of Act 3 specifically, you can jump to the uhhh 3. Yeah He's Manipulative (Trauma Edition) subheading.

Prefacing that this is just my personal interpretation of Astarion here, the game leaves several moments ambiguous on purpose & I'd be super intrigued to hear what anyone else thinks is going on in this rancid little lad's head. This became more of a process of breaking down what I think he's doing in each scene than anything else, so I hope it's interesting to... you? reader? Since it's a bit long-winded and a lot of speculation and interpretation on my part for his wild ass behavior.

(Also, I haven't played far enough with an ascended Astarion to properly break down the differences between both--he'll have his own playthrough for sure but since I haven't gone far enough in that path, all of this is with no-ritual Astarion in mind) (I also don't have screenshots for everything but hopefully that's alright. just trust me bro.)

Fair warning, I didn't proof-read this & I moved paragraphs around so if it sounds incoherent that's a feature not a bug. Now. Let's get into the EVIDENCE.

1. but did he mean the kisses????

So, before the hug scene, the game leaves us a bit of room to interpret the progression of the relationship. I kind of wish we had one extra scene to sort of solidify his growing feelings in the in-between period of his "I'm just sleeping with you to secure my safety here," era (pre-confession as we'll call it) and his "oh shit I actually kind of care about you," era (post-confession, pre-ritual), but I understand why it wasn't included. Game mechanics & cost aside, the space between these two periods is left entirely up to player interpretation, & has lots of room for HC up to each individual player & Tav.

To address the easiest examples the asker gave, the repeatable kiss dialogues are all ones I'm going to mark under "sincere." Mostly because those are all post-confession, and after Astarion has acknowledged to himself (& the player) that he doesn't want to do anything sexual, but presumably kissing is fine (given that he's enthusiastic about the kisses & will shut down sex/intimacy acts otherwise.)

There's not really a logic to him being slinky here, and I didn't interpret any of his post-kiss repeated dialogues as insincere, much more so playful or coy or cheeky. The voice acting is subtle here, but I found it to be much more playful than his annoying little, for lack of a better word, purring "hello, beautiful" etc etc in act 1 / early act 2. Also, all these dialogues stay the same after the ritual happens, and your romance has been solidified in the grave scene, where he wholly says:

"I feel safe with you. Seen. And whatever the future holds for me, I don't want to lose that."

^ Not a lie. So I think we can mark off those particular dialogue as sincere.

In act 2, there aren't really a lot of places for Astarion to actually get into his manipulative tendencies. He overtly needs your aid with Yurgir (Repeat after me: thank you for helping me. It was very kind.) so he doesn't really manipulate you at... all...? in my opinion? Act 2 shows you his most sincere moment yet in the confession/hug scene. He is not lying. He is more honest in those moments than he has been in the entire game, and it shows in his wording, his body language. He's uncertain of himself, maybe. He doesn't know what to make of the situation yet. He says as much to Tav when you ask him "What are we?" and he says:

"I don't know. But isn't it nice? Not to know. You're not a victim. Not a target. Not just one night it's better to forget. But then... whatever in the world could you be?"

He has no reason to say that without sincerity. He could say you're his specialest babygirl if he wanted to keep up the lie. And other than helping him with Raphael, there's really not a moment where Astarion has an opportunity to manipulate you....

EXCEPT.

EXCEPT. For this moment in particular. which is one of my FAVORITE Astarion ones because it is gloriously bitchy.

2. what if we took over a cult, babe.

Context first: I played a paladin of devotion, rough around the edges but fairly good-aligned Tav. She was a bit of a jerk but she saved people for free, and I adhered to her dialogue roleplay hard, choosing the "destroy the Absolute" dialogues at every turn. I don't have a save for this scene sadly otherwise I'd replay it and compare/contrast answers like a pepe silvia meme, so I'm only able to break this scene down from that particular lens.

Secondary context: This scene is important because it highlights Astarion's manipulative routine while still with a Tav he's very fond of (exceptional approval in this scene) and the way he lays it out is necessary to understand the moments later where he tries to manipulate Tav again, since it has components of the same themes, ideas, and tendencies that go on.

So, Astarion will hit you with this hot take early-ish on.

"You know. I feel a connection between us. Like we're two souls walking the same path (...)" Astarion establishes emotional connection, and a foundation of similarity/commonality/shareed interest. This is pretty standard fare for him. He does the same thing a lot early in act one, where he's almost CONSTANTLY asking you to "trust him," (when you really should not.)

"You might be a little naive in the ways of the world, but I see promise in you. Ambition." - He kind of snidely reveals what he actually thinks--you're a bit naive, you "have a big heart,"--he's hoping that his emotional cloying and little comment and connection with Tav will be enough to sway them over to what he wants to do, and they'll give him what he wants because We're So Similar, See?

"So I was thinking, what would be the right thing do when we get to Moonrise Towers?" - He wields his language carefully. The right thing to do. That's a language he thinks Tav speaks. An interest in doing the Right Thing; so, he adjusts accordingly. He wants to do the right thing too, you see, and the right thing conveniently lines up with what he actually wants, which is real power. Astarion confesses he's not a details guy, yada yada, then--

"If we can take that control from them, imagine the power we'd wield." <- He lets slip what he's actually interested in. Astarion generally can't keep a charade up for too long. His real thoughts always come through, and he reveals his hand in conversations often, but usually in offhanded ways and, well--he's never made a secret really of where his actual interests lie. His attempts at currying your favor and persuading you (and you can really feel the persuasion here) are prettyyyyy overt, but still, he's trying anyways.

"I'm just saying there's an opportunity here. If we can control the tadpoles, we can keep ourselves safe and liberate the world from this evil." <- He brings the conversation back around to what's more neutral than Absolute Power -- keeping ourselves safe. He uses the We and Us language a lot when he wants to convince other people of anything, really. "We're all such good, trusting friends!" he'll say, lying through his FUCKING teeth. His manipulations here are like.... pretty clear, but he still gets an A for effort for trying to align himself with Tav & Tav's perceived goals & see if he can wriggle in his own in the process, put "become god-cult-leader" up as a Reasonable and Rational thing to Want to achieve.

The actual question here: does he care about Tav at this point? Up for interpretation, but I'm going to say yes with... the caveat that I don't think he's fully acknowledged it to himself, and I don't think it's love here. It is high approval though. I do think he cares about Tav, I do think he's including Tav in longer-term goals, he's depending on Tav at this point as an ally he can count on, and he's starting to get chipped away at.

I don't even really think it's a lie that he on some level would like to see Tav safe, and takes their wellbeing into account. He's been with them long enough to worry over their safety to some extent, and to at least partially lump it in with his own (in my opinion). Is that love? I don't think so. "We can finally be safe," is a reoccurring theme in the other scene I'm going to break down in just a second. And it's interesting for a lot of reasons.

And furthermore: you can care about someone and still be manipulative toward them. That's a core thing going on here, I think, with Astarion.

3. Yeah He's Manipulative (Trauma Edition).

"Is Astarion Manipulating Me In Act 3? " YES. A little bit. And here's why it's INTERESTING.

So, the confession scene in act two has already happened. Astarion has confessed some of his big mushy feelings to you. He likes you. You've slammed the "can I kiss you?" dialogue 100 times already because you're really super normal about the vampire twink. He doesn't know what to make of his caring about Tav yet. See: his "what are we??" dialogue.

MOVING ON. Astarion is also, a manipulative little shit, and he will NOT change his ways just because he likes you a lot and giggles when you give him a little kissy kiss.

Astarion is deeply, deeply traumatized, and his trauma has in his own words makes him act out the same cycles of behavior that he did prior to escaping Cazador. In its most obvious format, one of those behaviors was seducing Tav because that was the kind of behavior he knew, and it was the only thing he could think of to secure his own safety. By act 2, he's somewhat aware of the cycle, but--

Traumatic behaviors, like anything relating to surviving abuse & getting out of it, come and go in waves. You'll likely not find a survivor of abuse who doesn't revert back to coping mechanisms at times, especially in moments or episodes of heightened stress, or being put back into the old environment again. ->

Astarion going back to Baldur's Gate--and specifically with killing cazador in mind--is him going back to that same place where traumatic events occurred... almost constantly. Thus, he goes back to his old behaviors. Not to the exact same level, but it is there.

Safety. THIS is a word that comes back a lot with Astarion, it is one of his most reoccurring (if not the most) themes. He wants to feel safe. He associates power with safety, because the safest person in the world--as in, literally safe, not "safe for other people"--in his mind, is Cazador, who is powerful enough to repel any threats to himself & what he owns, has, possesses, and keeps.

Astarion is still, at his core, no matter what, self-serving. He will do what's best for himself first and foremost in almost every circumstance you put him in. Or at least, he will want to--if Tav or someone else stands in his way, and he sticks it out, it'll be begrudgingly. That's a fundamental aspect of his character & to try and do away with it makes no sense.

And in case it got lost, I'll reiterate that I do think Astarion's actual feelings for Tav at this stage are entirely genuine, & deeply felt. It shows, and it's obvious. He's just got several layers of behavior going on in the process.

"But I thought astarion liked me??? why would he consciously choose to manipulate me??" The thing is, once again, you can like someone and still try to manipulate them, pull on their heartstrings, or quite frankly guilt trip them into helping you kill like, a lot of fucking people so you can become godlord supreme emperor of mortals and vampire kind.

Let's get into the second scene I want to break down. Keeping all of what we've established above about how Astarion goes about establishing connection & togetherness & the idea of shared safety to sway Tav over to his side.

So let's set up one thing for sure. It's pretty obvious, everyone gets this scene, but let's set it up anyways.

"What's a handful of the wretch's servants? IF they're anything like me when I was enslaved, they'll all be begging for death anyways." <- apathy toward others, generally motivated by self-interest, lack of empathy for others' plights, a callousness that is fairly unrepetant. He's fairly sure this is what he wants, and--

"After two hundred years of pure shit, I think I deserve something better." Again, Astarion tells us exactly what he's thinking. And what he believes. And he's not wrong! He does deserve something better than what he had before. Or, at least, he doesn't deserve the level of cruelty he endured at Cazador's hands. However.

And then he follows it up with, "I know you do [care]. It matters to me too. I want to be able to protect you too." <- finally, we come back around to the reoccurring theme he'll use to sway Tav over to his side. He sees the soft point of Tav in the conversation--they care about him--and he needles that in; they care about him, he cares about them, they should help him complete the ritual for it, it's what's best for everyone. Except for the 7000 spawn, but. You know.

NEXT IMPORTANT SCENE. let's take a look at the scene that follows after you confront his fellow vampire spawn in the tavern.

I'm keeping the full screencap so I can keep his shifty little look in here. It's not the best format, I wish I'd kept videos, the body language & voice acting adds a lot to this moment, but. Neil you're so good at balancing Astarion's careful shiftiness, his gleeful/vindictive revelry at being so close to his end goal & confronting his siblings without flinching, his coy little pleading, and his near desperate watchfulness. He needs Tav. He cares about Tav, yes, but he needs Tav to help him.

Astarion is, again, fairly callous about the deaths of his brethren. You have to remind him time & again to maybe empathize with their suffering & similarity to him. But each time he reverts back to, "their lives" serving a greater purpose.

Astarion then follows that up with "But we're a team. If I become all powerful, then we become all-powerful." <- I think he genuinely does think of himself & Tav as a team, and as a good one at that. More than anything, Tav is the first person Astarion, in his own words, feels he truly cares for. They've killed a few gods chosens together, Tav has given him respect, patience, care. He feels fairly assured of their presence & kindness at this point. And assurance tends to breed............. let's call it, taking for granted?

I believe he's trying to again emotionally bid for their help & loyalty as much as gauge if they're still with him, as he does by going -> "We are a team after all. You're still with me?" Once again, the easiest way to secure aid is through emotional connections; someone's attraction to you, or better yet, their care for your well-being, are easy strings to pull on to try and entice someone to do what you want them to do. It's not necessarily maliciously intended, but it is a kind of manipulation.

"But Astarion just genuinely wants to know you're on his side!" Yes. And he also really wants you to help him with the ritual. ANY arguments against the idea that he's benignly trying to manipulate Tav's feelings, I'm just gonna put up this screencap right here, one of the last times he bids for Tav's affection & loyalty in this, in this particular conversation:

Look at his stupid pouty face and his "You want what's best for me, surely?" and oh god the voice acting. We're smacked right in the face with Act 1 Astarion's slinky, whiny little "truuuuust me it'll just be a taste I promise <3333" voice. That PURE "I'm trying so hard to connive my way into your good will because I REALLY want this." voice.

His strength is your strength. And he will pleading face emoji his way through getting you over to his side if he needs to. It's honestly so funny, how the writing plays out, because SEVERAL times you can choose to fully fall for it, "yes of course I want whats best for you / want you to be safe / feel good" and every time, he's like "I know I know <333 and I want YOU to feel safe too <3333" and I don't even think that's a lie! I don't think it's a LIE, I just think it's the same pattern of manipulative behavior he's exhibited time and again even when he cares for you.

Astarion is still Astarion. He is very willing to kill, lie, and cheat his way through just about anything to protect himself, & all of that makes PERFECT sense for him. And if you're not on board with his plans, of course he will use every tool at his disposal to get you on board. It is, after all, what's best for both you and him. His power is your power.

4. "I'm doing this for you too." He said, lying. Or genuinely believing that but lying to himself too and executing it in the weirdest way imaginable.

So, this is probably my favorite interaction in the entire Astarion romance. Love the grave scene. Love the horny evil vampire turning. But this moment in particular is fucking brilliant, because it illustrates the dilemma here perfectly.

Astarion outright tells us exactly why he is the way he is, and why he cares for Tav while being able to be so cruel and callous about others. "No one ever looked out for me [...] you're the only one." Tav is exceptional--as in, THE EXCEPTION to the rule--because they cared for him in a way no one else ever has. He has ZERO reason to even bother lifting a finger for anyone else besides himself, because in his mind, none of them ever bothered to help him, why should he bother with them. But TAV. Tav he can make promises too.

On some level, I do kind of believe him when he says things like "I'm doing this for you too." -- As in, I believe that he believes that he's taken Tav into account here as well. I do think he genuinely thinks they'll be an even more magnificent duo of glorious bastards together once he's God Vampire Emperor Of Eternity. And on some level, he's probably right. They do take over the world together in some endings, so. Good for them.

However, do I think he's primarily motivated by anything but himself? No. Tav also benefitting from his mega vampire powers is just a bonus in a laundry list of reasons why Astarion wants to ascend at this point in the game. Why Astarion is willing to pull out every guilt-trippy, pleading face to get Tav to help him, if they show even a hint of reluctance. More than anything: Astarion is a survivor, and a survivor of severe abuse that pretty quickly explain why he is the way he is. Does that excuse what he does in the aftermath of that abuse, when it comes to harming other people? Not really. But it explains it pretty clearly.

Because Astarion is back where he came from, he's immediately thrust back into the cycles of behavior that both traumatized him & were what he had to do. The pattern of behavior, coping mechanisms, rooted in traumatic cycles, that he has done time and time and time again that has successfully gotten him, not what he wants, but what he needs to survive. Does his manipulation of Tav here mean he doesn't care? Not at all. It's just that he needs this work. He needs his allies to help him make it work, and he's willing to pull out every stop to see Cazador dead and himself with enough power to never feel so helpless or vulnerable again.

Astarion can love you & still be himself. He will never stop being a bit bitchy, a bit conniving, extremely focused on self-preservation at all costs. He might not seek out active maliciousness, but even in act 3 after the ritual, he still approves of generally being a sneaky bastard, taking short cuts, taking easy ways out. And none of this is necessarily... a problem? It isn't ""moral"", sure, but it's not really a problem. In some endings, he can pursue ""better"" paths, but his general deceivery and typical behavior aren't going away. Feature, not a bug. How each Tav feels about his ... fairly obvious deep romance manipulations is up to each player though, and that is what's interesting for each playthrough.

There are five more essays to write in here. There's the Astarion after the ritual, who agrees that fine, killing 7000 people is wrong. And there's the Astarion after the ascension, who is now fully entrenched in the idea that Power Is Everything, and all that means for him afterward, and his visceral, intense, obsessive controlling dynamic with Tav where they descend into Chaotic Vampire Evil Marriage. And there's Astarion and Tav together finally, honestly, openly, with the heart-wrenching intimacy of the grave scene. And this is almost 4000 words so I'm shutting the fuck up here.

So. I will end this by saying I'm peeling him like an onion rn I'm obsessed with him. He's gods horrible princess and he's never going to die.

#astarion #bg3 #bg3 meta #the fact that I'm sitting here like 'okay but I'm not even taking into account...'#Astarion.. you vainglorious hilarious evil twink. Why are you so complicated. I'm obsessed with you.#if this flops we don't talk about it okay....#also I'm not sure but if you need a tone disclaimer my jokes/insults/teasing is all complimentary. unfortunately #I love him deeply. and want to put him in a bag of rice and shake him really hard.#bg3 spoilers

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moyashidoodles · 3 months

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Tiny doodles of Pidge (my Tav) from act 1 and early act 2. Her hair changed for each act so it’s easy to tell where they are in their journey by how disheveled she looks.

Pidge is a wild magic sorcerer with an affinity for soul magic. She can see the color of others souls (I don’t consider this game breaking, but also it’s my brain baby so idc if that’s possible in the 5e rule set) there are some supplemental fan spells and materials for adding soul magic and flavor and there’s the soul knife subclass rogue which I think was a Critical Roll addition? Ugh, look at me spreading misinformation on the internet.

OC lore below the cut.

Content warning: abusive relationship discussion (parent and child), implied sexual and physical abuse.

Anyway, Pidge grew up Rapunzel like with a very controlling and narcissistic “mother knows best” mom. The only reason her mother even had a child was to be a “spare” body for when her mother succumbed to a fatal illness (and to help her mother transfer souls into soul coins and gems to be bartered in the 9 hells. Lots of devil’s work)

Pidge’s mother is controlling to the extent that Pidge was not allowed to learn anything about her wild magic and spent much of her life warded to keep her from accessing the weave. “For her own safety,” of course. The only magic she was allowed and praised for learning was soul magic, and this was to help her mother with her research into immortality and with business ventures.

Pidge was also used as “entertainment” for her mother’s important guests. Basically anything that her mother could get from Pidge, she would try to use to her benefit.

About 3-5months before the beginning of the game, Pidge escaped and crafted an amulet to protect her body and soul from being hijacked by her mother.

She is the only member of the bg3 origin crew who did not lose skills when she was infected by the tadpole. She didn’t really have skills to begin with. Much to Gale’s dismay, she learns basically on the fly and does a lot of “firebolt first, ask questions later.” To her, practical experience is much more important than book learning. Really she has adhd and can’t rote memorize for the life of her.

She identifies with Karlach early on as they both have had dealings with the hells, although Pidge is just beginning to understand the ramifications of her mother’s hellish business of soul coin forging.

Pidge is also very afraid in act 1 of Gale finding her out as she was told to keep her soul magic affinity secret by her mother. In truth the stigma for soul magic is not so bad, but it was a manipulation technique to keep Pidge from explaining to any magic practitioners what they were working on and how her mother planned to use the research to steal Pidge’s body.

Her mother is still hunting her down, so Pidge needs a permanent solution or soul barrier to keep herself from her mother “living vicariously” through her.

Bodily autonomy is stupid important to her. She rejects the Emperor the moment he tells her to “embrace her ilithid potential” for fear of losing herself. She is self conscious to the extreme and keeps notes on her newfound companions likes and dislikes so she can keep them happy. She had a legitimate panic attack when both Gale and Astarion wanted the necromancy of Thay because, according to her calculations, they would disapprove if the other was the recipient.

She fell for Astarion after rather disliking him for a good ten day or two. He won her over by being actually reliable in scrapes and being really funny. She can’t remember the last time anyone made her laugh, so she loves the feeling. They are the two smooth brained members of the group. Similar brain cell count.

This ended up being a lot longer than I thought it would be. If you made it to the end, then you will have made it to the end! *salutes in Barcus Wroot*

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ourdreamsareneon · 7 months

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okay *cracks knuckles* I did a post about gale, time for his better half - astarion

Some of you don't have media literacy and it shows.

I dont know where to start so I'm gonna go hard before getting soft (insert sex joke.) Act 1 astarion is an asshole. He's manipulative and toxic and uses his power as a ~230 year old vampiric high elf to manipulate you into (among other things) having sex with him. I understand falling for him at that point, that's not your fault it's just the game gaming and the writers are really good at how they write his manipulation. However, it does strike me as strange that some of y'all get to the scene where he confesses to using and manipulating you and you....don't care? 'He's just damaged! its not his fault!' babygirl, someone can have a good reason for hurting you, but that doesn't take away the pain. I'm not saying that you shouldn't still love him, but it's strange how many of you disregard that scene. I know for me at least I was saddened by it and definitely was a little wary about him afterwards until beating Cazador and unlocking the nice happy healthy Astarion relationship.

Now here's where we get soft to prove that I actually like Astarion. The reason that confession stings for me is because I have many a memory of being SA'd then being told "I'm not even into you, you were just there." Ever since I stopped being a girl and became a woman, something that happened all too early in my life, I have been used and abused. And hey, sorry for making my Tav the exact same way but I like processing my trauma through D&D. I relate a lot to Astarion. Hurt people hurt people and I know that better than anyone. I also know better than anyone that picking yourself up and healing from that hurt sucks ass. Which brings me to two points. Um apologies for getting hard on you again.... insert another sex joke here.

1) Astarion isn't ace. I've seen this briefly and while I appreciate the need for queer rep, and love headcanons, I do think this discounts the struggle a lot of SA survivors go through. Okay, back to my life so we can compare. When I was chin deep in my abusive relationships and just general shitty time of my life, I was fucking and sucking literally so much it hurt. However as soon as I got out of that situation, I basically became celibate for 2 years. I didn't know how to have sex in a way that was healthy, or that wouldn't make me feel awful about myself. It was only this year that I was able to finally have sex in a way that made me happy. I think you'd be blind not to see Astarion in the same way. He's just a hurt man that is trying to rediscover and heal himself. Which is why he doesn't care about Tav and Halsin, and why you can have sex on his grave. He is very sexually open he just needs some time.

2) Ascended Astarion isn't sexy and I don't think some of you are ready for that conversation. Look I don't have time to go through this because I have a meeting in 30 minutes because I'm an adult with bad time management. But I just. Come here. Come real close. Abusive relationships aren't hot and sexy. We all love a little bit of kink but if you don't see Ascended Astarion as clearly the bad choice, I'm very confused. He's so sweet and loving and kind and HEALED if you don't let him ascend, I can't imagine not wanting that. And like I said, kink is fine! And ascending him because you're doing an evil run or whatever is also fine! Just please, I need teenagers to stop romanticising abuse because the media you consume does rub off on you.

TL;DR I love Astarion with all my heart, but by the writers own admission he was created as a Try Not To Overly Sexualise an Abuse Survivor Challenge and y'all are failing left and right!

#refusing to read this before posting because my cat sat on me and now im over stimulated #also ive been in love with neil as soon as i saw Gavin Reed breathe in dbh so im not better than anyone #it just saddens me i think bc it feels the same as ppl who sexualise my trauma #i also literally have a side blog dedicated to Billy Stranger Things so this isnt avout the good victim/bad victim thing #because that doesnt exist and if it did i wouldnt be on the good side uwu #anyway let me know what i missed or just scream at me to shut up lol #bg3 #balders gate 3 #astarion ancunin #astarion #tw: sa mention

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thelikesoffinn · 2 months

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Hey friend 👋 I have this Astarion based inquiry I wanted to ask you. Simply, what type of person do you think he is attracted to?

I wondered after the player + Star's meeting Sebastian in Cazador's lair and Star's mention of a "Darling boy" he met within the 1st decade of he captivity. I'm sure that Cazador is not picky about the type of people that the "family" brings in as long as this person's absence doesn't bring unnecessary attention, which would lean the "family" towards those that are considered to "dregs of society"

Star said to tav that he would try to pick "beautiful people" but eventually stopped caring (not exact wording, something along those lines), althought he didnt specify if be meant apperance or personality, I feel like his choices of Sebastian or "Darling boy" ( shy, naive, sweethearted individuals) are the personalities of person would pick for his own personal escapism for that night.

But my conflicting lies in his approval of a player that does things that are cruel or manipulative. So maybe, he just have a soft spot for people he deems as innocent or naive and not necessarily a romantic attraction, since he seen how cruel the world can be 🤔 I'm sure his preference changed between him being a magistrate, captive and post-game, but I think ideally he'd like someone that's good of heart?

idk what do you think?

Oooohhhh, that's a neat question to wallow over! Let's see, love, let's see...

I do agree that Astarion seems to have a certain weakness for good-hearted, somewhat naive and innocent individuals - almost golden retriever types - for the same reasons you mention. And, if we nitpick, we could add the fact that he used to dream about someone like Wyll saving him and if Wyll Ravengard is one thing and one thing only it'd be a goodie two shoes. (And he does have his innocent and naive sides as well, doesn't he?)

In the end, I do believe that a good heart is something spawn Astarion admires and looks for in a person. Probably because it feels so strange and alien to him after his years of abuse, something he hasn't seen or experienced in a long time and that he is now drawn to like a moth to light.

But, at the same time, there's a few... limitations. A good heart is one thing, but I have my doubts about how well a relationship like that - one with one of those kind, naive, innocent golden retriever types - would work in the long run.

While we could argue that Astarion has a good heart - which I personally do believe he does, deep down - he isn't innocent or mellow in character. Astarion is a character that tends to see the need for cruelty - and I do think he does enjoy his casual bouts of cruelty as well (think act 1, scaring the tiefling children) - and he is somewhat of a jackarse. A loveable jackarse but a jackarse nonetheless.

If we combine that with his polar opposite - a naive, innocent do-gooder - it makes for a rather...explosive combination.

There's a lot of room for conflict in that connection, because we're faced with very clear differences in core values and believes that are usually hard to navigate.

(In general, every person has a set list of core values that make us who we are. Those values determine not only how we act but also who we surround ourselves with and to form healthy, long lasting relationships - platonic or otherwise - those values need to somewhat overlap between us and the people around us. The less they do, the harder it is to keep a relationship stable. It still is very much possible, but it will require a lot of communication, openness, acceptance and understanding by all involved parties.)

I think that sort of relationship would come with a long list of big and small frustrations. Astarion would be frustrated because why can't they see how this is necessary? Do they always have to save every kitten in distress? Why do they care so. much.!? Can't they just turn and walk away for once? What has the world ever done for them? How can one person be so fucking naive?!

And darling would be frustrated because, hot damn why can't he do the right thing just once? Why does he need to be so cruel to everyone else? Why are we even discussing this!? Why isn't the path already clear to him? What has the world ever done to him? Why is he so cold? We are able to help so we fucking should!

As you can see, the script nearly writes itself. There's a lot of room for disagreement and even more so for annoyance and even infantalising - on part of both parties.

(And if, to top it all of, darling is one of the softer do-gooders - one of those that have trouble standing up for themselves and pushing back when necessary - the relationship could quickly delve into Astarion continuously walking all over them, whether it is intentionally done or by accident.)

As I mentioned before - Astarion is a jackarse. In order to be with someone like that, you need to be able to push back when necessary. Give shit where shit is due to drag him off his high horse. And I think this is something he is well aware of and doesn't necessarily mind. You can call him out on his shit multiple times over the course of the game and, far as I can remember, he doesn't disapprove most of the time - Cazador-centric moments not included. (Example - calling him an arse because he's being a racist shit towards the gur hunter in act 1.)

He needs to be told off just as much as he needs to be agreed with.

And this is, essentially, the problem with the darlings. Realistically speaking, I think there'd be too much disagreement and telling off and not enough agreement in most situations. It lacks balance. A person who is kind hearted and does good but can be cruel and cold if the situation calls for it would probably fare much better with him in the long run because they can see eye to eye when it comes down to it.

So, to answer your question:

I do believe that Astarion has his fantasies about those very lovely, kind and innocent people just as much as anyone. Maybe it's a thought he likes, maybe there's even more to it - we don't know.

But, in its essence, this seems more like one of those fantasies one might have or one of the archetypes one might like that aren't all too feasible in reality. You know, like how some people love the classic Tall Dark Dangerous but if they ever were to meet one of them in person, they'd probably be throwing hands.

(It's me, I'm some people.)

And sure, this might work for a night. Chat up the innocent and kind person, seduce them and, dare I say, corrupt them with a little bit of himself for one night - if only to escape reality, as you mention -... yeah. Yeah, seems feasible.

But a relationship with someone who he actually CAN see eye to eye with at least half the time would likely be much more realistic and sustainable and I think it's something he himself is well aware of, which is precisely why we gain the approval the way we do.

It's a fantasy. And some fantasies are meant to remain as such.

Luckily, attraction is based on a great many factors and can change the better you get to know a person! So, while he might initially be more attracted to a prince charming, that attraction can quickly fade. Meanwhile, someone who's the furthest from innocent and kind can become more attractive the more time is spent with them. Attraction is lovely like that, it's willing to shift and morph into anything for us!

Woof! I think I strayed a lot in the middle there, I'm sorry, love, but I hope I could answer your question!

#but as I said he could be happy with a golden retriever as long as both are open and willing to work for it #far be it of me to deny the beauty of contrast #baldurs gate 3 #baldur's gate #bg3 #baldur's gate 3 #baldurs gate #astarion #astarion ancunin

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netherese-blorb · 1 month

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Troubling Thoughts on Wyllstarion from my Wyll Origin Playthrough

I started a new run to fulfill my Wyllstarion fantasies of princely good boy Wyll learning to let loose while teaching manic-pixie-dream-pire Astarion about true love. But I'm near the end of act 1 and as I'm gaining a better understanding of these boys, it's pretty clear that this relationship is going to be bleak.

Putting Wyll in the position of the player character, where he narratively has total agency, but also no pre-determined stances on the events of the story, is oddly perfect for him. My initial read on Wyll was that he's an idealist with a rigidly lawful-good alignment that makes him an easy mark for hucksters. But now I get the sense that, rather than having too strict a moral code, his gullibility ultimately stems from being too weak-willed (no pun intended).

He wants to do the right thing, but other than "self-sacrifice = hero = good", he doesn't have a strong idea of what that means. He doesn't have a clear ideology or divine mandate to guide him like a lot of the other companions do, but he also doesn't have any newfound freedom to embrace like Astarion and Karlach. All he has are fairy tales and an adolescent understanding of his father's politics. His confident bravado thrives when there are innocents to protect and/or villains to slay, but the moment a situation becomes more morally complicated than that, he's totally lost.

It's why Wyll the monster hunter still has dialogue options to immediately offer himself up to Astarion the undead vampire without any real convincing. It's why the drama around Mizora is more about her being an abusive boss he personally has to bear, rather than any larger ethical concern about his work aiding an objectively evil demon's agenda - but also why he's so easily convinced to disobey Mizora and accept Karlach. (Also-also, and this may be a cope on my part, I think it explains why tav/durge has to make the decision for him about selling his soul again in act 3. He truly can't handle it.) There's no need to manipulate a man who's already so desperate to martyr himself, or better yet, to have someone just tell him the right thing to do.

To bring it back to the point, Astarion's seduction is designed to ensnare insecure romantics like Wyll. On top of that, his tortured backstory hits all of Wyll's pain points. The fact that Cazador was operating right under his nose, in his city, while he was off dancing at balls (maybe even with representatives of the Szar family) would send him into a spiral. Did the other nobles know? Did his father know? What more could have been done? It chips away at his reality, and he looks to absolute pinnacle of mental health and stability, Astarion Ancunin, to fill in the gaps.

Even if both of them come into the relationship with the best of intentions, neither are emotionally equipped to move past a victim/savior dynamic. Astarion makes Wyll feel like a hero and Wyll makes Astarion feel safe. No one pushes the other to learn or grow. In act 3, Wyll helps Astarion ascend as a kind of reparation for his suffering, Astarion convinces Wyll to put himself first for once and keep his soul. Even if they rescue Ulder in time, eventually the title will pass down. I don't see this going any other way than ascended!Astarion using his spawn Duke Wyll Ravengard to rule over Baldur's Gate with an iron fist for time eternal.

If my feelings change as I continue the playthrough, I might add some updates, but I'm also interested to hear other's thoughts about this, so feel free to add on!

#wyllstarion #astarion/wyll #astarion x wyll #wyll/astarion #wyll x astarion #wyll ravengard #astarion #wyll #me #discussion #headcannons #bg3 spoilers #bg3 headcanons #bg3 #baldur's gate 3 #I'm in deep lads #this playthrough was supposed to be a fun romp bc act 3 on my tav run was stressing me out so much #and yet here i am

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mosses-gate-3 · 3 months

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What drew your Tavs to their love interests? Was there an instant connection between them, or was it more of a gradual build-up? What's their favorite things about their respective LIs?

Thank you so much for the ask!! (I swear I'm working on the tents one I just need to actually draw them 😭)

Andis got smacked directly in the face by Cupid watching Wyll's introduction, and Karlach with her golden retriever energy had him at hello. He was immediately drawn to both of their genuineness and sense of fun. Also watching Wyll with the tiefling kids made him swoon. However he does kind of have a crush on everyone new he meets and assumed it would just go away with time so he didn't really make a move beyond his normal platonic affection. His favorite thing about Wyll is his love of a dramatic flair and his unfailingly good heart. His favorite thing about Karlach is her sunny disposition and her love of trying new things. They also all really like dancing and music and that's something they bond over (no I don't have a ballroom dancing thing whatever do you mean,,,) He just loves them so much you guys <- projecting

Salix. Okay salixstarion is really interesting to me because for the majority of their relationship (act 1-mid act 2 at which point they break up) they go through varying degrees of hatred, contempt, and disgust for each other and for their situation. The thing that drew her to him is the fact that he's an elf, meaning she can't use her siren song on him and therefore he poses a serious threat to her safety within the group. The best way I'd describe their arrangement is, they're both playing the exact same game of 5d manipulation chess but they both hate it too much to realize the other person also hates it. Their relationship improves a lot after they break up in act 2 and by the end of the game she's started to develop a genuine crush on him, and him on her, which they then proceed to never address even though they're adventuring together post-game.

Ren and Gale clicked pretty quickly I think. They got talking to him at first because they recognized him as having been their classmate at wizard school, and then continued because of their shared love of their respective crafts. They adore it when he teaches them things about magic and just things in general because they love learning and he's one of the only people who's ever really treated them like they deserve to be taught, if that makes sense. They could spend hours listening to him talk. Ren also loves his artistry when working with the Weave, it reflects their own passion towards the more artistic and beautiful side of their work as an artificer. And he's such a genuinely good and kind person it's hard for them not to fall in love. He's perfect for them is what I'm saying

...I haven't decided who Monty's romancing yet-- I'm just gonna go with whoever tries to fuck him first because that's what's most in character lol. I think his endgame romance is Wyll because uh. Gwaincelot brainworms. My interpretation of it is he'd flirt with Wyll right off the bat, get rejected, drop the subject because he didn't care that much anyway, sleep around with whoever else, and then realize oh fuck I actually genuinely like him what the hell do I do!!! And then they get together sometime during act 3 and are ridiculously cute. I think he does have a brief fling with Gale during the sleep around phase but it's very much no-strings-attached. I really don't think he'd work out with Gale in the long-term. Wyll however I can see being perfect for him.

Cesair isn't romancing anyone I don't think because he's still not over his ex and also this is a playthrough with a dear friend of mine and I won't subject it to that (hi @otherworldlyjukebox ily). But I can see him with Gale, Astarion, or Minthara - he'd definitely end up ascending both of the boys but he'd be so chill with it afterwards. He's used to being subservient so he wouldn't see anything wrong with being Gale's Chosen or Astarion's Consort. There also are the narrative parallels between him and Gale and having had really imbalanced power dynamics in their past relationships. His moral code is really fucky so I could also see him raiding the Grove and recruiting + romancing Minthara if he was guided to that.

#bg3 tav #my ocs #moss says things #my tav #andis #reneeginald #salix #monty #cesair

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valiantvillain · 7 months

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You let me into your house and so I am asking - you didn’t expect Miraz to romance Astarion, so what was the point that you know it was happen (and was it a different point for them?)

Okay, this might get long bc now I have an excuse to ramble about these two.

It's an interesting case of yes and no with Miraz and Astarion. When I was making her in the character creator I had the idea for her to try the Astarion romance for no other reason than I thought it would be funny. A fairly lawful good paladin trying to teach morals and values to a chaotic hot mess of a vampire with all the energy of a cat owner lecturing their misbehaving pet as they carry from their most recent shenanigans by the scruff of their neck. But then I actually started playing with Miraz, and as a character, she just started to really click for me with an ever-growing backstory and I found myself having a lot of interesting roleplay behind her decisions, including those with Astarion. They were still hilarious but roleplaying Miraz being well aware he was trying to manipulate her (inspired by a passive insight check very early in the game with him) it added this really interesting element to their dynamic. Someone using flattery and flirtation to assure their own safety with someone more accustomed to being dismissed as ugly (bc let me tell you, some NPCs are not shy about calling a half-orc Tav a brute, ugly, "maybe you can use those cutters on the rats in the cellar") and was just plain skeptical of him due to her own history of being manipulated by her noble relations for years.

But even though Miraz distrusted him, like it or not they needed him and to leave one of their tadpole squad behind was not an option to her. Because at her core, she is a paladin, someone whose job it is to protect people...even from themselves on occasion. And she felt somewhat compelled to see what exactly was the objective of this long game he was playing with her. And in act 1 she fully expected him to chicken out when it came time to consummate all that flirting bc well...she's a half-orc. She's done this before, sometimes played along like in this case to see the inevitable moment where her potential partner realizes they didn't actually want to commit to this. But then he didn't follow the script and pride demanded she not be the coward. Thus in playing chicken, she ended up eating crow and much to her chagrin, enjoyed it. Even the bite.

I think the point where I knew they had transitioned from just kinda funny joke pairing to something more meaningful for me personally was in act 2. Particularly when Astarion starts trying to figure out his scars and is willing to deal with Raphael to do it. Miraz wanted to smite this smarmy cambion from the moment they met him. But he was their only lead in translating the contract, so even though she had so many bad feelings about the whole thing she let Astarion do it. After all, you gotta be desperate to seek aid from a devil. To me, that signified a small but significant shift in their relationship, with Astarion trusting her with the information about the contract and her trusting him enough to negotiate for himself with Raphael despite all her reservations. And I just thought to myself "oh, she IS warming up to him at this point, or at the very least trusting him a bit more, this is a thing now".

The point for them was still act 2, just a bit later in it, after encountering Adaj Oblodra in Moonrise Towers. Miraz in her mind, was doing the natural thing, the expected thing, "he said no, the answer is no, he's not drinking your blood". Then came the confession afterward where Astarion admitted he had been trying to manipulate her and his history with using sex as just a tool in the kit, and in that moment it really struck Miraz how much all of his behavior stemmed from being in survival mode. With all the implications clicking in her head, she understood the motivation behind it and figured that this would be the natural conclusion to their little situationship and that they would probably just be allies, maybe even friends after this. She could be content with that, it's not like she really expected this to go anywhere anyway, although to her surprise she found the notion stung a bit. However, to her even greater surprise, he expressed a genuine desire in continuing to explore a relationship with her, and suddenly a hug and a holding of her hand felt more intimate than anything Miraz had ever done with anyone.

So yeah, sorry for the very long answer but I was articulating so many thoughts I had throughout that run, and like Gale, I have a tendency to be quite verbose, for better or for worse.

#bg3 #baldur's gate 3 #astarion #miraz #half orc #paladin #bg3 oc #bg3 tav #valiant answers

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