#and so!!! i will go on my little theodicy rambles on my own

[soldier-poet-king]

Ok not gonna actually put my replies on someone's post bc that's RUDE (and it's not borne out of ill will I genuinely like discussing this stuff but idk if that is appropriate here!! I don't know this person!! I am bad at knowing when to open my mouth!) but I really liked the theology of vespertine? I didn't take it as things done in the Lady's name are Valid Religious Actions, nor did I take it that both good and evil come from the Lady. Its clearly based off of Christianity, and i thought the questions it asked about theodicy were quite interesting (and perhaps my favourite bit of the book, and why I found it so moving).

It was less that the Lady causes xyz bad thing to happen, and more that the Lady /allows/ xyz bad thing to happen only so that ultimately some good can be brought out of it. Which, imo, is very in line with a Christian view of theodicy, esp in the Pauline epistles (and Job, and obvs the Gospels). Evil is brought into the world by human action, but that human action is allowed to happen (BC free will) and ultimately is transformed toward the Good. That doesn't mean that ppl aren't shitheads who claim that their evil is divinely sanctioned, nor that hurt people do not (understandably) blame the divine and lash out in their hurt. But that ultimately, for whatever ineffable reason the inexorable will of god PERMITS evil to occur, knowing in divine wisdom and grace it will be transformed to the Good.

That's not a comfort. Not really. I think it is frightening and terrifying and awe-inspiring and horrible all at once. I have my own personal feelings on the subject. I just think it's an important distinction, and fwiw much closer to my own reading of the book. Its the same sort of troubling not-answers to questions of divine providence, grace, and the will of god that the sparrow duology examines (in a much less harrowing way, albiet, the sparrow is heavy).

Idk man I think I'm just fascinated by theodicy and conceptions of evil in non dualistic universe where evil exists despite an omnipotent and all-good divinity. I think the Augustine Brainrot got me.

#i am only mutual in laws with this person and idk if theyre comfortable with me randomly saying shit #and so!!! i will go on my little theodicy rambles on my own #idk man. i just really loved vespertine. one of the top books i read this year #i found it incredibly comforting and also incredibly disquieting #that sense of divine providence that is both suffering and grace #i didn expect it to wrestle with that #and i dont think it did it in a way that's really incompatible with christianity tbh #but maybe i have greek philosphy brainrot and a lot of weird thoughts and feelings abt theodicy more generally speaking #i know my opinions arent often mainline wrt faith #regardless. i adored vespertine. i wish other ppl of faith felt the same!! #its not really a big deal im just. thinking my silly lil thoughts all the time

[storyunrelated]

Candidate for Completion - Theodicy

Theodicy

People like to think - in the way that people like to avoid uncomfortable notions - that this is just the way things are now, that this is the way things will stay. Sure it’s bad but now it’s normal and normal is livable. Normal doesn’t need you to get up and get out of the house to take a chance on trying to fix it and maybe failing. Normal means that your peaceful life can continue. Normal is comfortable.

WHAT

Diag Fol, you see, was progress given form in this backwards world. A shining beacon of what was possible with just a little bit of human effort and a pinch of ruthless, merciless liberation. Diag Fol was proof that another way was possible, nay, preferable!  Superior!

Knowing this, how could the fine, bold, inspiring leaders of Diag Fol ever stop at just one?

That the Diags are full of small gods is just a fact - they’re everywhere! They are part of the fabric of life. They’re vital! They look after every aspect of everything, and all it takes is a little acknowledgement of this. Is that so hard?

No, no it is not, and life has continued in this way for generations. The Diags fight, they stop fighting, they trade, one of them is invaded by Those From Across The Sea again, the land between the Diags remains small godless and wild and dangerous, life trundles forward, all is well.

Or rather all was well. One day, out of nowhere, Diag Fol is overthrown! And not in the normal way where one group of small god-fearing people swap out one set of leadership for another. That’s normal.

No this time they killed the small gods. All of them. Every last one in the Diag, every single one. This should be impossible. It has to be impossible! But they did it. And they didn’t stop there - all priests killed, all icons smashed, all signs of piety purged.

A free Diag now, they claim. And they have devices now. Amazing devices! Devices against which no one Diag can stand. And can the Diags unite to fight back? Like fuck they can.

And just as things reach a boiling point - just when Diag Fol prepares to roll out the liberation of humanity from the yoke of oppression - a priest of an obscure, forgotten small god who survived the last eighty years by being dead wakes up in a box in a cupboard, and finds himself charged with a mission to, well...

Not fix things, it’s too late for that.

But they can be...

Manipulated.

WHO

Amphibalus had  never met anyone From Across The Sea, of course. Very few people had. But he’d heard enough about them to know he wouldn’t ever want to. Strange people. Long fingers, big boats, deep eyes. Questionable theology.

There is a handful of characters in this one...

There’s the main chap, the priest. He’s killed before the story really starts and first shows up as a corpse. His name is Amphibalus. Prior to being killed, he was an old man. Strange events lead to his corpse getting stuffed into a chest in an abandonned house and forgotten about for, ooh, about eighty years.

He later wakes up in a healthy, young man’s body. Also naked. Also very confused. He’s nudged in directions without a clear idea of what he’s actually meant to do. There’s an idea, but he can’t grasp it. And he’s in probably the most unfriendly place possible for a man of a small god.

Then there’s some others. There’s the leader of the god-killing revolutionaries who overtook Diag Fol and who is kind of an unhinged lunatic with some very high-scale ideas for what should happen to the world. There’s a lady weapons developer who works under him who will do...something.

There’s a spy in Diag Fol who’ll meet up with Amphibalus. She has a pidgeon.

And there’s some other guy who wanders around killing people in the name of his small god, who lives in his sword. Think he’s called Ronan. He ends up getting into Diag Fol somehow, I think.

Eh, stuff.

Oh yeah, now I’m remembering that the small god who lives in the sword is probably one of only two small gods who actually get lines in the story and I forgot how much of a bloodthirsty mad bastard I made them.

But who else would live in a sword but a bloodthirsty mad bastard?

WHERE

“I’m hiDing IN youR SKin, ronan.”

“I know.”

“i aM swiMMIng iN yOUR BLOOD. I fEEl safE.”

Ronan shook his head.

What I need is a very definite idea of the structure. There’s a lot of rambling that kind of hints at the nature of the world - and a whole chunk which just out-and-out explains the whole structure of the UNIVERSE and HOW THE SMALL GODS ACTUALLY FIT INTO IT - which might be a little on the nose.

But what really needs nailing down is just the through line.

Amphibalus wakes up. He wanders around. He bumps into some IMPORTANT PEOPLE. He runs. He obliquely speaks to the lunatic leader guy. He rusn some more. He meets the spy. He finally learns something about the world he’s woken up in. He sees a sign. Bish bash bosh, some hints at the lunatic leader’s plan, some way of stopping it, blah blah whatever.

Oh and I need a new title because, as I remembered too late, Small Gods is a Discworld book - whoops!

WHY

There’s very little as terrifying as being in a place where every single other person present believes the exact opposite about everything that you do and them all realising this all at the same time.

Many, many pairs of suddenly unhappy eyes all turning in the same direction. Fists clenching. Bile rising in the back of throats. Righteous indignation building in the bosoms of people who heavily outnumber you.

Nothing good can come of this.

The basic idea of “There are gods and they are known to exist but one day they are all murdered by humans and one priest survives and comes back later in a godless world to do a thing” is an idea I’ve had for a while and never really been able to do anything useful with.

Originally the idea involved humans cannibalising the dead ‘bodies’ of gods for power purposes or something suitably grim. This time it’s...not quite that...but still something.

This isn’t a commentary on religion or anything like that. It’s just a lark. There’s no points being made. Or if there are, I ain’t the one makin’ ‘em!

WELL

“For I am a godly woman, and my god travels with me. They’re strange like that. Pigeon is the name they go by. I serve them well and in turn I am provided for.”

“Pigeon?” Amphibalus asked. He couldn’t help himself. The woman looked a touch sheepish for a moment but then straightened up.

“Unusual, yes. Perhaps even humble. But who are we to question? Certainly it is appropriate. My small god’s domain lies with pigeons, you see. An animal with which they have a certain natural rapport and an uncanny ability to manipulate. Very useful for someone in my line of work.”

“I can imagine,” Amphibalus said.

He was lying. He could not.

To do this one I’d need to CARE, and the circumstances needed for me to CARE are very specific and esoteric. It usually only happens at night, and I have to be sitting in a chair at a table or a desk. And I have to be on my own and in a fairly cheerful state of mind.

You think I’m joking but I’m not.

Theoretically I don’t mind this story much, but nothing in it has GRABBED ME and the characters are just kind of bleh to me right now. None have formed yet because I haven’t done enough of it, and I haven’t done enough of it because the characters aren’t formed enough to grab me.

Irony!

#Candidate for Completion #Amwriting #Writblr #Writeblr #Writing #Theodicy