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threewaysdivided · 4 years

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I appreciate the response. Yeah, among other adjustments, had the plot been handled a little differently, I feel like Sam’s relationship with her parents could have evolved into something like that of Danny and Jazz and their parents. And don’t get me wrong; I still like Sam, too.

(In reference to this post and follow-up ask.)

Good to hear from you again 😊

I think there were a lot of things across the board that could have been tweaked or edited to improve the integrity of the series. If I had to boil down the problem with DP to a single point I’d probably say it’s that the most interesting parts of the show are the characters/world/implications but the writers (or some of them anyway - I suspect there might have been some conflict between Hartman, the lead writers and the execs’) wanted certain plots, aesops and gags, and chose to brute-force them in regardless of whether they actually worked with what was already there. Basically, it lacks consistency and internal logic.

For Sam in particular I think there are a few things that could have been handled better:

First one’s more a general complaint at the show and might light a fire under my notes but heck lets go there anyway but the writing has kind of a sexist bent that really doesn’t fit the characters or need to be there. Considering how much Danny and Jack are shown to love and respect Maddie and Jazz there’s no way they’d call their involvement in Genius Magazine “the swimsuit edition”. Paulina might be traditionally feminine but “She surrendered her individuality for a boy! I’m so proud of her!” is not a line that any human girl in the history of human girls would say unironically. There’s also a few too many jokes that basically boil down to “male character is emasculated/ vulnerable/ likes feminine-coded things, hyuk hyuk hyuk”.

I’m bringing this up not just because they’re gross cheap gags but because for Sam specifically, this pervasive low-key contempt for women and femininity in the writing, especially the tendency to portray almost every non-sympathetic girl her age as one-note, brainless boy-crazy cliches that she can’t connect with, really does not help her character. I would have loved to see more genuine interaction between Sam and the other girls, even if it most of it was Kim Possible-Bonnie Rockwaller style antagonistic rapport. We could have seen her develop some kind of tenuous connection with one of the A-listers, or even just have a secondary-female-character to be cordial towards - kind of like Mikey is for Danny and Tucker. Hold up, outside of Valerie, Star and Paulina are there any named secondary girls at Casper High? Sam doesn’t seem to have a single female friend in the show and considering how vocally judgemental she is, it can almost read like she’s rejecting them outright for being girls, which really undercuts attempts to make her seem feminist. (I mentioned it in a past tag but this feels like an early-2000s-male-writer mistake of equating Female Empowerment™ with the ability to tear down other women and belittle traditional femininity - which isn’t so much Feminism as it is Internalised Misogyny.) Even just mixing up the pairings to put her with Star instead of Kwan in Lucky in Love would have helped.

I’d have also liked to see more awareness of and consistency in the conflict between her activism and her wealth. It kind of undercuts the significance of her activism when you realise that she’s wealthy enough to make these choices with little cost to herself; it’s much easier to go vegan or buy renewable/ recyclable /sustainable /fair-trade when price isn’t an issue, especially if you also have serving staff to offset the time cost. Once you notice this it makes her activism feel more tokenistic, and also like she doesn’t really understand her own privilege when she tries to push her agendas onto the school/ her classmates without considering why they mightn’t be able to do so as easily. It’s also weird because the source of her family’s wealth is a cellophane-toothpick-wrapper (i.e. something that basically produces litter) but she still seems very comfortable enjoying the material benefits despite her pro-eco anti-consumerism sentiments. It’s bizarre that she’s more concerned with the social consequence of ‘fake friends’ than the ethics of capitalism. It can come off a bit “do as I say, not as I do”.

It would have been nice for the show to give more screen time to reinforcing that Sam is aware of that conflict and is making an active effort to hold to her principles even at the cost of personal comfort; maybe showing some unease at the source of her wealth, trying to live below her means and only spend up on ethical/ eco-friendly/ sustainable products, op-shopping or hand-making her goth accessories, going out of her way to re-use or re-purpose things even if buying a new one would be ‘better’, actually showing or referencing her doing substantial hands-on activities (e.g. going off-screen or taking the boys to do tree-planting, litter pickups, soup kitchens, animal-shelter work etc). Just something to help make it clearer that she genuinely cares and isn’t just doing the low-mess lip-service activities because she enjoys indulging in the image of Wokeness™.

These things would have helped regardless of how her family was written but let’s hop back on topic and talk about them. I don’t have any prescriptive preference but let’s spitball a few different options and how they could have played:

#1 Sam’s parents don’t respect her interests and want her to fit a mold

In this case I’d make it that they don’t really pay attention or show much caring for who Sam really is as a person; their image of and interactions with her are more of a fantasised version of the ‘perfect’ daughter they want, they make very little effort to encourage her actual interests and are perhaps restrictive about what they let her do in the few moments when they do bother paying close attention (you might compare to some versions of Tim Drake’s Parents from DC Comics). Classist, overly image-conscious, snobby and superficial.

This would be the most sympathetic portrayal of her character without changing it very far from how it is in DP canon - helping contextualise why Sam is so fiercely defensive of her autonomy, why she pushes so hard when trying to get her opinions across and why she’s so judgemental of rich people and disdainful towards classic femininity - even possibly explaining her more hypocritical/ manipulative/ entitled traits as learned behaviours. It would also give her more legitimate reason to be less empathetic towards others - after all even if they have struggles and family troubles it’s still better than what she’s dealing with (Danny’s parents may not be attentive but hey, at least they love him for himself, right?)

For this version I’d probably put her arc around growing past the “suffering olympics” model of viewing other people’s pain, but also in her finding family in Danny/Tucker/her Grandmother’s circle of connections, learning how to have healthy power-balance and communication in her relationships with others (aka: getting over her hypocrisy and realising that assertiveness is about communicating that “I matter, and so do you”) and pulling away from her parents’ influence - maybe even living with Ida a lot of the time.

#2 Sam’s parents are well-intentioned but overbearing

For this one, Sam’s parents would genuinely want the best for her… only they have an overly old-fashioned and restrictive view of what “the best” is and are a bit set-in-their-ways. They’d probably view “hippies” and “goth” stuff as “dangerously rebellious hooligan-activities” and likely to be somewhat patronising about Sam’s passion for it being “just a phase”. They’d be worried about her hanging around “the Fenton Kid” and “the Foley Kid” both because Danny’s parents are kind of irresponsible screwballs about safety but also because they put a lot of value in image due to their belief in social connections being the way to get ahead. Them pushing Sam towards classic femininity and specific activities would be less about disrespecting her identity and more about their overly narrow view of “success” and worrying that she’s going to end up losing valuable opportunities and “wasting her life” if she keeps on down her current path.

This would still give Sam more sympathetic context for her views on femininity and pushiness about self-expression.

Personally I think the arc I’d like to see here is one themed around responsible/considerate assertiveness and valuing alternative perspectives. Sam coming to realise her own hypocrisy - that she can’t push her views onto others while complaining about her parents doing the same - developing more sympathy for Danny as she realises that he’s in a similar position with Jack’s insistence that he’ll inherent Fentonworks and his parents’ narrow-mindedness about ghosts, interacting with other girls and seeing their perspective, learning how to assert her opinion while making allowances for others’ (maybe an alternative version where she connects with Star in Lucky in Love and, after Aragon’s defeat in Beauty Marked, Sam still says she personally thinks it’s dumb but then steps down and lets Star win because she understands that Star values it), and getting her Grandma’s help in convincing her parents to widen their perspective while still responding to their concerns.

(This one has the overall kindest message and I think I like it best).

#3 Sam’s parents are trying and Sam’s actually the problem

This one is the one that’s the least sympathetic to Sam. Her parents still don’t get the Goth/Activist thing and they have some concerns about safety but they understand that it makes her happy and they’re okay with it so long as she’s not getting into trouble or mixing up with anyone that could hurt her. Them pushing her towards more feminine/optimistic things is less pushing and more trying to encourage some hobbies that offer a bit more common ground. They might have reservations, and they might not always have time, but they would like to be part of their daughter’s life… except for the problem that Sam has wrapped herself up in a teen-drama persecution complex and got it into her head that they “won’t accept her” are “pushing her to be someone else” and “don’t understand” so there’s no point even trying to explain or connect. In this one Ida isn’t taking sides on purpose but she ends up accidentally enabling Sam a little because Sam reminds her of her younger days and she likes spoiling her granddaughter (and doesn’t much care for her daughter-in-law).

In this case Sam’s flaws would be framed much more as flaws born of her making superficial snap judgements, thinking she knows better and being too proud to admit she’s wrong. There would definitely be moments of her coming across as an entitled, privileged holier-than-thou brat who invents problems because she likes feeling sorry for herself, especially early in her arc.

This version of the story would go the hardest on Sam with the general lesson being “you need to respect that other people are people who have their own problems, feelings and needs that are as real and valid as yours”. She’d still have good qualities and Danny and Tucker would still obviously like and value her but there’d also be times of strain where they don’t want to hurt her feelings but are clearly getting worn out with the nonsense. At its worst, maybe a “you’re like mustard. Great in small quantities, but a lot of you is…a lot” type confrontation.

I’d also give the secondary cast the most fleshing out, agency and sympathetic-ness here, and have beats where Sam has to realise that they’re lot more complex than her 2D stereotyped view of them and are dealing with actual serious problems to which hers are largely non-issues by comparison. I’d probably play Dash and Paulina similar to in the fic Alibi (go read it, it’s good) - Dash being gay and performing aggression because toxic masculinity, insecurity, and being terrified of anyone outside the A-listers finding out (still not okay that he’s a bully but at least more understandable), while Paulina is hiding high emotional perceptiveness behind her pretty face and deliberately bearding for him to keep bigoted parents/ teachers off his back. I’d also probably have a subplot in an alternate Life Lessons where Sam follows Valerie around because jealous/possessive and, like Danny, ends up realising that she’s working two jobs to help her Dad with their financial problems. Basically she’d be getting hit with the Reality Stick a lot.

There’d also be more instances of Sam getting directly called out by the other girls. Fleshing them out as people and showing that their dislike is less superficiality and more because she unfairly judges and antagonises them all the time. Giving them more agency in Beauty Marked and have them be direct about “we know you’re just here to be smug about how much ‘Better’ you are but have you considered that we’re doing this for ourselves and actually enjoy it?”. Having Paulina be less “tee hee I am indeed a Witch” in Parental Bonding and more “Ugh fine, fine, I don’t really like him that much but you were being so obviously Jealous and Judge-y and I figured if I played a little you might actually step up. But fine, if you’re sure. Here’s your necklace back, I’ll let your dorky ‘friend’ down tomorrow. But pro-tip? You like someone you gotta go for it - otherwise don’t complain when your boy-toy gets taken by someone who actually means it.” (Still petty, but emotionally intelligent pettiness, which… not really much better, but at least more interesting.) A lot more of Sam realising that she’s not a particularly good feminist and that she’s no more entitled to Danny’s affections than anyone else.

To be honest, while I could say the most about this version and there’s a lot of potential drama there it’s the one I like the least because it means canonising my least favourite proto-abusive bad-faith narcissistic reading of Sam, casting her as an almost-villain and essentially punishing her over and over until she character develops into a decent human being. Sure it’s an important message about how you treat others but it’s not a very nice or kind story and while there might be the odd fic that makes it cathartic I can’t say I’m a huge fan.

Again, if I had to pick, I’d probably go with something like #2.

But there we go. Another thrilling instalment in the “overly long posts about Sam Manson” saga.

Hope you enjoyed it and thanks for stopping by!

#Danny Phantom #Sam Manson #Character Analysis #Storytelling suggestions #the mustard quote is from John Green's Turtles All The Way Down BTW (haven't read but heard it and thought it was a good turn of phrase)#there was so much potential in this show #they were really not good at writing girls in particular #cw: mentions of abuse #cw: sexism discussed #anonymous #3WD Answers

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lethesomething · 6 years

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Furious speculation and spoilers incoming from season 3 and 4 of Voltron Legendary Defender. Also just... so many pictures of Lotor.

So guys. Serious question.

How friggin old is Lotor?

I have many questions about Lotor (and at least one of those is 'Can we get him out of that armor?") but the most prominent that comes to mind right now is how old is he supposed to be? Because a lot of things don't add up.

Let’s do the speculative math. Lotor is half Galra, half Altean. Altean lifespan seems to be roughly a thousand years, if we go by Coran standards. (he's 600 years old but seems to look and act middle-aged by human standards). Galra natural lifespan is unknown but personally I don't think it's as long as Altean. If the Alteans are space elfs, then the Galra are space orcs. They're more militaristic, they throw themselves at their death with surprising ease, giving me the feeling that life is considered less precious, and therefore the toll of years lost should be lower. If a human dies at forty, that’s a toll of thirty years they could have had. If you have a thousand years to live, it feels Very Wasteful to kamikaze yourself at nineteen. But that might just be me. The main takeaway, however, is that neither Galra nor Alteans live 10.000 years. That is, for pretty much anyone in the galaxy, an unnaturally long lifespan. The reason Zarkon and Haggar manage, is because they use quintessence to prolong their 'life' way past what is normal or even preferable.

Puting this under a cut because I overdid it again.

So. On to Lotor.

His natural lifespan should be about 1.000 years. Tops. He looks and acts fairly young. Like early twenties, by human standards. So 200? Thereabouts? But when the frig was this guy born? And how? There’s a few things that are just really off about the Zarkon family.

1. From what we see in their interactions, his parents don't seem to remember that they were married at some point. Whatever love or connection they had, seems to have been lost when they 'turned'. They certainly don't act like a married couple and in a very real way, I'm just having trouble picturing them in bed together, ok? Their power dynamic is just too weird at this point.

2.Lotor doesn't treat Haggar as his mother. He doesn't call her that, even though he addresses Zarkon as 'father'. He doesn't even acknowledge who she is. In the same way, Haggar talks to Zarkon about 'your son', not 'our son'. To Lotor, his mother is Honerva, Altean scientist. And he respects Honerva deeply. It's her work he's trying to continue by building the rift. He seems to care a lot more about that than the empire his father (and Haggar) are so desperately trying to preserve. But Honerva, at least that part of her identity, died 10.000 years ago.

So what the hell is going on.

Option one: he's like, so old

Consider Lotor being born 10.000 years ago, to Honerva, before the whole mess that destroyed the Galra home planet. That would give him 10.000 years to start hating his dad.

But. For him to still be alive in the series, he'd have to be given quintessence. His lifespan must have been expanded way past what was natural, in a manner similar to Zarkon and Haggar.

I don't buy that. Why? For one, it’s in his eyes.

Lotor, while being a Complete Asshat and just, the best kind of villain, has pupils. This is surprisingly significant.

Voltron tends to use eyes as a way into the soul. It’s a sort of way to show a person’s... for want of a better word, humanity. That’s why Haggar has yellow slits, Zarkon has purple slits.

#NoPupils. But that’s not how it used to be.

Lotor has his father's eyes, from back when his father wasn't fully evil. So what has changed? For Zarkon and Honerva, it was a trip to an alternate reality. But most modern day Galra have no pupils. Even the good guys, like Kolivan. That’s weird, innit? Now this may be some gene evolution thing, but I personally believe it has to do with quintessence. The purple evil stuff, and the use thereof. The Galra empire uses that stuff for Everything, it's like their electricity, but we've been shown quite vividly that it corrupts.

Meanwhile Lotor is 'the outcast brat'. He may have Altean blood to keep some of that corruption off, but he’s also staying as far away from headquarters with its druids and its massive stores of quintessence as possible. He's the rebel son traipsing around the outskirts of the galaxy with his pack of badass lady generals, all of whom have pupils, btw.

But of course, the eyes could just be part of his heritage or somesuch. Now let me add this tidbit of an argument.

He's too fabulous. No, listen. Being that old takes its toll, even if you're using eldritch magics and pure evil to prolong your lifespan. And the series shows this. Haggar and Zarkon aren't just old, they LOOK old. You can even see it in the god damned cat.

Kova went from cute fluffy pet to the galaxy's oldest feline, and while the kitty retained its pupils, it does SHOW that it's super old.

That creature is a skeleton covered in leather and ennui. Meanwhile Lotor is over here looking, well, young. Like he's in the prime of his life.

Option two: he truly is a young adult

If you consider that Lotor is like 200 years old, because he really is in the prime of his life, this opens up Many possibilities.

1. He was born the natural way.

This involves his parents getting it on, which, go you I guess. But it doesn’t account for the Very Strange family dynamic they seem to have.

2. In vitro fertilization (or whatever version of it the Voltron universe has)

Consider Lotor being Created in some way. Either as a pure test tube baby, or through some druid ritual or even using a surrogate mother (I have no clue about Galra biology and I do not wish to know). Somehow that makes So Much More sense.

It accounts for the lack of any motherly bond between Haggar and Lotor

It is certainly easier to imagine a lab working on this, than the strong but not exactly life-sustaining body of Haggar growing a baby.

You can just imagine Lotor being born and handed to a set of nannies and trainers. "Hello, you're the prince. Your father is emperor Zarkon, your mother is Honerva. Time to start playing space chess and learning to fight with a laser sword." And no one even mentions who Honerva is, because that seems to be like some kind of weird secret.

Shall we go deeper?

What if this Lotor isn't the first?

What if the original son was born and raised in the normal way, but died 10.000 years ago. What if every few centuries they try clone him, or recreate him, only for Lotor to disappoint his parents by rebelling and basically not being Zarkon.

What if the memory of her motherly instincts is what compels Haggar to keep trying? To put Lotor on the throne and to hope that he'll do it right this time?

I found Zarkon's reaction to his own son's actions very strange. This is your only son, and you're firing him like that? You're treating him with pure disdain? You're chasing him across the galaxy to kill him? The main difference between Zarkon and Lotor is that Lotor is cold and calculated, whereas Zarkon is emotional and passionate. Lotor is capable of changing sides, of scheming, of doing the rational thing for his continued survival. Zarkon, meanwhile, will drop everything to get the Black Lion, will go to alternate friggin realities to save his wife. It makes sense for Zarkon to try and reap bloody vengeance on his son for disappointing him, but not until he’s found out as a traitor.

But what if he's attempt number six? At this point he'd be nothing more than a product to Zarkon. Another failed subordinate who was given more chances than others, and who squandered them all.

Why is this important

The possibilities for Angst on all sides are just delicious in this scenario, so there’s that. But mostly, it opens up character development for our villain. It would mean Lotor is a total shit, yes, but an uncorrupted one. It would mean he does not have 10.000 years of evil juice running through his veins and like the eyes, it would mean he still has some humanity left to regain. I would personally not trust this fucker as far as I can throw him but... He could have the little redemption arc I’m sure a lot of us want. And I’m kinda hype for that.

#voltron #meta #character theory #prince lotor #vld lotor #hello yes #it's tuesday morning #and i just spent too much time writing about my fave villain #again #lethey writes #in other news #i finished season 4 of voltron #come scream with me #because i obviously need an outlet #voltron spoilers

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