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thewickedkat · 2 days

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(I haven’t watched C3 in a while (the party had gotten back after being split into two after Vax got orbed) so my info is a bit dated)

I often wondered about how little info there is about Orym’s husband known to the party, how little has been asked or shared.

And I get that BH is very different from M9, BH tends to be very non-confrontational and doesn’t poke at others pasts much, but we do have another character who had a dead spouse: Yasha.

And M9 did know about Zuala because Yasha shared it and they knew little things like she likes flowers and they gave tribute to her when they could. The mural, the flowers, the remembrance and asking if Yasha would share her stories.

And I dunno, maybe I’m not remembering right, but there hasn’t been much of the same with Orym. I feel like most of what I know about Orym and his dead family comes from monologues or times when Liam sets aside a character moment to act solely. Orym doesn’t share, the party doesn’t ask and some of it feels like because a Orym has often has to defend himself against the Pro-Vanguard debates.

They had to go to Zephrah to get to know more about Orym’s dead family and a lot of that info came from NPCs!

I dunno. I haven’t seen the show in a while but I felt it when more then 50 episodes passed and still felt a difference between how gently Zuala was treated and remembered vs how Will is only brought up to prove bad guys are bad guys with only Orym trying to keep his memories in a soft place.

Hi anon,

I actually disagree with most of this! I think the fandom has a lot of issues with Orym, which I'll talk about below, but I do not think Bells Hells are dismissive of Will. I think the reason it comes up is very simple, namely, the manner of Will's death is core to the conflicts and factions within the campaign, whereas Zuala's death is obviously a huge factor in Yasha's backstory, but the Mighty Nein are not dealing with the Dolorov tribe in any capacity. Will's death, is, in fact, a symbol of the Ruby Vanguard's brutality and callousness as well as Orym's husband within the narrative; whereas Zuala is just Zuala.

I don't think Bells Hells has been particularly unfeeling towards Orym with regards to Will and Derrig's deaths when they come up, nor do I think their discussion of the Vanguard is borne of not caring. I think that the Vanguard's harm is particularly real for some party members, and until FCG's death just now it felt a little bit more distant for others. I think the conflict in-game stems from that: when you combine how viscerally real the threat of the Vanguard is to Orym and the way it's not so direct for others (and, obviously, that Imogen's mother holds a position of power within it) and also consider the characters' differences re: how they bring up (or don't bring up) difficult topics, you get some painful conversations! When I say I understand why Orym might not want to talk to the rest of Bells Hells because this is a topic of discussion, I don't think the rest of Bells Hells are bullying him or being deliberately unkind; I just think that there's a lot of misunderstanding and hurt feelings. When Will has come up as a topic of his own - and the conversations I specifically remember are with Chetney in the Heartmoor and with Fearne and FCG at Will and Derrig's graves - those party members have always been incredibly kind and supportive. It's the fact that his death is fundamentally a political one that adds a wrinkle, and that wasn't how Zuala figured into the party.

I also would add as an aside that the Mighty Nein did ultimately have a much more open arena for discussion, as witnessed by them eventually bringing up the possibility of partnering with Trent; that feels far more analogous to the discussions about the Vanguard than anything regarding Zuala, since the issue isn't ultimately "dead spouse", but "organization that is directly responsible for causing a character's life-altering trauma for the purposes of conquest and deliberately stoking unrest." I think there's a number of reasons why the Nein are able to do this, notably that the first time anyone considers it, it is very much a guarded thing; that no one but Caleb is personally impacted (whereas Imogen and Orym are placed at odds solely by their familial connections); and that it comes much, much later after the party has spent months clearly detesting Trent, so there is an increased sense of trust from Caleb.

Now, the fandom is a different story. Or rather, it's more similar than you think. The CR fandom (and probably others, but this is the one I've observed) has, since I started lurking in mid-2018 and actively participating about a year later, always had its share of people being extremely weird about grief. Some of it is shipping motivated (people who didn't like Beauyasha claiming Yasha wasn't ready and was too hung up on her dead wife; people who don't like Dorym or who resented the fact that Orym was resurrected before Laudna claiming either Orym isn't ready or, more chillingly, that he'd be happier dead). Some is not - I've mentioned before, but my favorite member of Vox Machina is Vex, and after I finished Campaign 1 I started looking for Vex content (again, this is mid-2018) and was inundated with "what if she can't braid her HAIR because she's too SAD because Vax is DEAD." Even now, I must admit, I look askance at the people claiming the throw to the Crown Keepers is good because it's a break - I don't think you need a break, unless you're extremely uncomfortable with grief or strong emotions! The first Campaign 2 episode I watched properly live (at least to the break) was episode 27 specifically because I wanted to see Beau and Caleb and Nott deal with that death now and didn't want to wait until Friday morning. I'm going to a concert this Thursday and won't be able to watch live and I can tell you what, I'm watching the back half of episode 93 Friday morning and the Crown Keepers half when I get to it, because this is what interests me, and it's fine if it's not what interests you, but someone you love is going to die one day and I have found that working through this through fiction lends a lot of meaning and catharsis. This is not, in fact, an unusual position; I highly recommend finding Liam's tweets from after Molly's death, and reading Ashly's essay about losing her partner, which she had written earlier but shared at that time as well. A core part of experiencing grief is that there is no break; there is only time.

In short, grief is complicated and unpredictable and it is indeed a part of Yasha and Orym (and no shortage of other characters) and will always influence them and be a part of them while also not serving as an end to their lives, and I think many people struggle with that. I suppose usually the response is more sympathetic within the fandom as it is towards Orym (though as discussed various fans used it to sideline Yasha's desires, to sand away Vex and Keyleth's ambitions and genuine excitment to live and grow, and don't get me started on Caleb or Vax). But it's always been a problem.

Ultimately, I think the reason Orym is treated so coldly is that, again, there's always been an issue within fandom of treating one's favorite characters as unimpeachable and any conflict with them or discussion of their flaws as a violent affront; but it does feel particularly pronounced in this campaign, particularly with regards to any obstacles (real or perceived) to Imogen or Laudna. [I could write an entire history of this campaign because it started with Laudna being The Untouchable One and only flipped to Imogen around the time of the solstice.] Hence such statements that, I truly cannot stress enough, I would rather give up internet access forever than admit to harboring such callousness within my heart as "Orym would be happier dead because his husband is dead" or "He has an obligation to recuse himself from discussions surrounding the Vanguard because he cannot be objective, a thing that is normal to expect of people with emotions and experiences and possible to achieve." (The latter really does pose a fascinating loophole. If the Vanguard just senselessly kills one or two family members from everyone's family then no one can oppose them, because it would then be biased and motivated by revenge. Life hack! It also reveals a pretty fundamental hypocrisy; if Ludinus is a Calamity survivor, maybe he should also be recusing himself! What's the math on how many people directly connected to you must be killed for your opinion to be right and good, rather than wrong and subjective?)

I think all of the above is, while, as discussed immediately above, not objective in that I'm a human being with personal experiences and emotions, fairly self-evident. I'll conclude by going into something that is within the realm of opinion, but I think is relevant to the discussion.

I personally believe the Vanguard's methods are sufficiently vile so as to cast doubt on all of their goals, but even if one doesn't, I find the idea that the Predathos should be unleashed and the gods should be killed is, ultimately, short-sighted, deeply self-centered, ahistorical within the canon (ie, unsupported by the text both in terms of canon events and, if we're counting them, appeals to emotion and authority - not terribly useful in real life, but very much the truth in a D&D actual play narrative), and a far less interesting story to boot. I think it would be devastating on a cosmic level in-world and that "oh it will sort itself out, probably" is perhaps the reddest flag one can wave in such discussions. So I do think that while Orym is acting on the basis of emotion, I also think he's right, and so the callousness is, as I've said elsewhere, a last-ditch effort by those with no capacity to construct a meaningful argument, because they think he's wrong and pointing out he's acting on the basis of emotion is their only ammunition to discredit him. At best I think the people who are arguing that the Vanguard is cruel but their cause is just have an extremely poor understanding of the setting and the specific narrative structures of this medium. Which isn't to say some of Bells Hells might not still make that choice, though Imogen telling Orym "I want you to know that that for a while it may have felt that you and I were not seeing eye to eye or maybe you felt that I, I didn't have the same goal in mind that you did. But don't worry about that anymore, all right?" in the wake of Liliana's conversation and the death of their only divinely-aligned friend feels rather indicative of their direction. But I do not think it is a choice defensible on the basis of morality; only defensible on the basis of "something a very hurt and angry and damaged person might choose to do."

People are specifically like this towards Orym because he is the mouthpiece for an opinion they don't like but ultimately cannot meaningfully argue against, and part of his justification in-world is the death of Will. While there was no shortage of people who hated Yasha, either for "die for our ship" reasons or your normal Reddit Bro misogyny, Zuala was mostly irrelevant to that discussion, hence the difference in how they're treated.

#critical role #long post #cr discourse #this is all true

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