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knightofbalance-13 · 7 years

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I Didn’t

http://dudeblade.tumblr.com/post/163454403646/so-kob-how-exactly-did-you-debunk-my-claim

1. That was not the argument at hand in the OP: The argument was whetehr or not the shows you listed where better than RWBY.

And 2. I actually did compare RWBY to them. And I even pointed this out the last time you tried this and said how it was an example that RWBY stands up even to professional shows.

But, guess it’s easier to fight a strawman huh?

Primarily out of curiosity. To see if they still held up even after all these years, and to see how they compare to RWBY. IMPO, they are BETTER. Oh wait, that’s an opinion that makes RWBY seem mediocre in comparison, no WONDER you think that all I do is bash RWBY despite the fact that I want to love the show. It makes SO Much SENSE NOW.

No, you were talking in a very affirmative and factual way in the OP, meaning you were claiming yourself to be right. (https://knightofbalance-13.tumblr.com/post/162855264440/yes-yes-it-was)

And I realized that the show, Beast Wars, one of the very FIRST 3D Animated shows ever aired, is better than RWBY.

So no, you were not saying an opinion, you were trying to pass off an opinion as fact. As you are still doing now. And half of your argument is strawmaning me for pointing this out by twisting the facts: if you are so right, you wouldn’t need to do this.

1. So, if Cinder is supposed to be hated, why are we shown her having regrets about things? Why are we shown her to be in pain? These are things that are done to give us a reason to sympathize with a villain, but we have yet to actually be SHOWN or even TOLD what her reasons are for wanting power. She’s supposed to be sympathetic in those scenes in Vol 4, but earlier she acts like a villain who is aware that she’s evil, and is okay with that. Also, the Joker is a force of nature, no villain can top him. But Rampage utterly DEMOLISHES Cinder in the ‘motive’ department.

because she was give n some humanity, some flaws, to make her less two dimensional. By this logic, because the Joker has a tragic backstory, we are meant to feel sorry for him when that is clearly not the case.

And here’s a problem I stated in the argument: Beast Wars is finished. RWBy is not. In the future, we could very well get more information on Cinder’s motives. You can’t make judgements like these until you have all the facts: And yet you are making broad strokes about RWBY.

No...The Joker is not a “Force Of Nature” villain: Darkseid is an example of that type of villain. The Joker is the “Insane, tricky, unpredictable, chaotic trickster” type of villain. This is a problem you have here: You cannot tell the difference between two types of characters. It’s like saying Shinji Ikari is a better protagonist than Goku: they are not compatible. In fact: That in and of itself is a problem here. Rampage was built t be the “Tragic insane” character whereas Cinder is the “power hungry manipulator” villain: they are not compatible thus the argument comes down to who you like subjectively better and in an argument, that means jack shit.

And another thing: You STILL don’t explain jackshit abut your side: How does rampage crush Cinder in motive? Why does he? You can’t just claim these things as fact.

2. Beast Wars IS better. For starters, the writers NEVER withheld valuable information, and they never relied on forced humor. Not to mention the fact that the characters are fleshed out, and get more than one episode in the limelight.

Okay, so first you say that you are stating your opinion and now you are repeating what you said earlier but as fact...Dudeblade, you can’t even go a paragraph without contradicting yourself.

Okay...So? How is that bad? How is not withholding information bad in RWBY or Best Wars? in fact: How do you know withholding info wouldn’t make Beast Wars better or not make RWBY better? No explanation? FIne, your argument is invalid.

How is the humor forced or not forced? What is the tone of Beats Wars and how does it ? Any examples? No? Then I claim bias against RWBY again.

And RWBY isn’t finished: Stop making jumps in logic just to suit your narrative.

3. This is because RW/BY has a cultish following of fans who refuse to see the bad in the show. Like you. You claim that RT isn’t homophobic when they literally repeated the same unfunny “fag” joke in Camp Camp TWICE! And this is just proving my point. “If it’s professionally made, but has a lower rating on IMDb, then we can compare it to RW/BY“ - That’s you. “If it was professionally made, but has a higher rating than RW/BY, then it isn’t fair to compare the two.” - That’s also you.

And I can claim that Beast Wars has a cultist following fueled by Nostalgia and it’d hold the same weight as yours: none at all. because neither of us provide any evidence. In fact, I can say that you are biased against RWBY and then as proof point out all points in which you ignore aspects of RWBY (such as being incomplete, different types of villians and how the shows are structured) or never give examples (humor, motives, characters as well as action, vocals, audio and animation) in this very post in order to declare Beats Wars better.

I can also point out the fact that you call Camp Camp unfunny but admit to watching South Park and the SImpsons were they made those exact same jokes.

And no, I am not. As we will see latter down the line, I actually compare RWBY to higher rated shows. You are the only one who refuses to acknowledge RWBY as being professional until you can say that it is worse than something else.

Here, let me do it right now. Jimmy is the smart kid who feels like an outcast because of his intillect - Something that people can relate to because they can feel like an outcast for simply being BETTER than others at something. Carl is the kid with the medical conditions and weird obsession, which everyone has. Sheen is the guy who hero worships a fictional character, much like how you worship miles and Kerry. Cindy is the girl who is jealous that her title of “The Smartest” was toppled, and Libby has an obsession over music - something that EVERYONE has, or at least KNOWS a person who is.

Except that I don’t feel like an outcast because of my intellect, in fact, it wasn’t because I had something over other people but rather I LACKED something from them. So Jimmy would seem pretentious and entitled to me. Not everyone has a weird obsession and definitely doesn’t have medical conditions. And you missed the ACTUAL chance to be right and say “Kamina or Simon The Digger”, two characters I heavily look up to. Instead, you bring up an attack on me that makes you look like an ass.

Cindy just comes off as a brat to me because I LIKE it when someone is smarter than me: it allows me to see what I am doing wrong and improve. And Libby’s obsession with music is literally the only thing I can relate to.

See the problem Dudeblade? Not everyone THINKS your way, not everyone AGREES with you: In fact, most people don’t.

Going off of your point: I can say the same to the characters in RWBy. Everyone has been like Ruby at some point, blissfully believing in a good world. A lot of people have parental problems like Weiss (like you), a lot of people can relate to trying to fight against the world while trying to NOT become like their enemy and a lot of people can relate to Yang’s depression (as I have and I know you have.) Even if you bring up my previous point: That just means the two shows go after different things.

But if you insist on this, let me ask you: Name a trait of Jimmy’s that isn’t smart or condescending. Name a trait of Carl’s beside sick and weird. Name a trait of Sheen’s beyond stupidity and obsession. Because I can with RWBY: Ruby’s issues with dealing with the world not being what she thought it was, her eagerness to make friends and her guilt about putting people around her in danger. Weiss has her overcoming her racism, learning to put aside her grievances with Ruby to work with her and become her best friend and her admiration of her sister Winter. Blake has her cowardice, her martyr complex, her issues with Adam as well as her inability to let people help her. yang has her maturity, her depression and overcoming it, her good nature, her relationship with Ruby and her father, her duality with her mother and her tendency to be harsh towards those she cares about. You do not give an example of how they are better characters beyond being relateable which RWBY has as well.

Oh hey, look! MORE proof that IMDB ratings are all that matter. Despite the fact that you claim that LoK has an unfair advantage when it has a higher rating.

1. Because they are factual and the only place RWBY shares a page with all the examples.

And 2. I pointed out the exact same advantages that the other three had as well:

And unlike Beast Wars which is a part of an existing franchise, complete and had more professional backing: RWBY didn’t and still doesn’t. Again, while this is amazing of Beast Wars, RWBY is still factually rated higher so your opinion doesn’t hold much weight.

And this while being completed and backed by a popular network whereas, again, RWBY is NOT. SO even with all those advantages, RWBY still beats it out.

And it aired on Cartoon Network and is complete. So your statement fails.

I bring them up in BOTH sides of the coin: You only argue them when they have the higher ratings.

More proof that you only care about ratings when it comes to comparisons.

Contradicted when I demanded that you explain why it was better right BEFORE that as well as the fact that I bring up this right at the end:

And the only one I really fond impressive is Beast Wars. Storm hawks and Jimmy Neutron are both utterly crushed by RWBY in teh ratings, who doesn’t have network backing, isn’t a part of an existing franchise and isn’t complete so it can still go up.

And again: ratings are factual. You cannot make them up nor can you fake them. They are a factual way of quantifying a series' quality. You have yet to disprove that.

YOU SEE! You just proved my point. You just said that the other shows don’t matter because they got crushed by ratings, but when it’s RWBY that’s getting crushed, then it’s unfair because they had “network backing.” NEWS FLASH! - LoK got SCREWED OVER by the network. Your argument is ALREADY contradicted by actual facts.

Except that these exact points you bring up were brought up with the previous three when they had lower ratings: You are only now arguing them because you have a chance at twisting the facts.

And how was LOK screwed over? Because it got so low ratings that Nickolodean pulled it off the air? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Trivia/TheLegendOfKorra) Wouldn’t a show getting pulled or canceled be a sign of it being bad normally unless proven otherwise, which is not the case here? Especially since TLA never did?

Again, because people like YOU keep claiming that it’s “unfair” to compare RWBY to things like LoK or SU. RWBY has the advantage of not having to deal with censors, and being able to go back to fix things they are aware would make fans confused, but they don’t take advantage of it. Which is a problem considering that you seem to ignore the fact that other shows have to deal with censors, and don’t have the luxury of being able to hire TFS or Funimation VA for one-shot characters. when SU uses a guest star, it’s for a character that is special, and is likely to return. RWBY? - “Oh hey! Let’s hire TFS voice actors for these characters” “Great, which ones?” “These guys.” “But, they’ll only be there for one episode…And they hardly have any lines.” “Exactly! We’ll get the recognition of USING TFS actors to voice characters,and NOT have to worry about paying them so much” - That? That was the (probable) thought process that went into the idea of using TFS actors. Though, it’s also my cynicism talking as well.

I claim it is unfair...then proceed to compare them to RWBY with the same standards that I did with the previous three while you refuse to argue ratings until they are higher than RWBY’s? And...so what about censors? Stuff that the censors deal with nowadays don't concern the quality of a show: Lesbians and black people do not make a good show. They are inconsequential to a show’s quality.

And that’s true...only Tara Strong, one of the most iconic voices in the business.

And a constant compliant with RWBY has always been the voice acting: So wouldn’t hiring more professional actors fix the problem? So attempting to fix a problem is bad now?

And you just admitted to having bias being prevalent in your argument: Why should anyone take what you say here seriously?

Much like how RWBY isn’t even noteworthy enough to get a review by the Nostalgia Critic despite LoK and SU doing so. And considering that you used the words “mostly just using Smash Bros brawl for acting” when you conveniently ignore the stolen assets that RWBY uses, I’m guessing you don’t even know the story at all.

... Nostalgia critic doesn’t review cartoons anymore, especially such recent ones. That's Doug Walker and those are Vlogs, personal opinion. Not factual reviews.

And that “assest stealing” has been disproven (https://lovenotefromcoco.tumblr.com/post/155633293739/slashmaiddeviantartcomartrwby-wtf-645284611). A RWBY fan would know this.

Here’s another thing: Just because RWBY is the first American-made anime DOESN’T automatically excuse any of the mistakes that it constantly makes. I know that’s a hard concept for you, but I can do this about Beast Wars and the mistakes that it made despite being one of the first 3D animated shows to ever air.

Okay...never said it did: You were just trying to devalue the accomplishments of RWBY so I showed accomplishments you couldn’t devalue.

Ahem; Tigerhawk got killed off too early, we never got to explore a whole lot on Megatron’s dragon mode, Blackarachnia whines about not being trusted too much despite having a lot more bad blood with the other Maximals, they used TIME TRAVEL as part of the plot, and Rampage’s caring nature wasn’t explored that much.

And yet you claim it to be better than RWBY when I see many of the same mistakes you claim RWBY has done in here. And when I did this in the past, you still called me a fanboy so why should this be different for you?

There, I just listed off some of the things in Beast Wars that were mistakes/irritating. But unlike RWBY, these are just mine, whereas most of the gripes about RWBY are shared by most of the rwde tag.

And are these shared by most of the RWBY tag on Tumblr, let alone circles that do not include Tumblr? Are they shared by the critics of RWBY or that one jackass FMF? No, so by your own logic, you are still wrong here.

Grow the fuck up kob. RWBY isn’t “Magically exempt from criticism” like you say. Neither are miles, Kerry, Grey, and the rest of crwby. They have to be held accountable for their bullshit excuses and mistakes, or they’ll only receive praise from the likes of you and the rest of the cultish fndm. Meaning that they’ll keep making the same mistakes over. And over. And over.

Funny you say that: I did in fact criticize RT in my Volume 4 review (https://team-crtq.tumblr.com/post/162758524659/volume-4-review). I’m not the one lying, attacking people, being hypocritical, calling someone racist in the tags for no reason other than Ad Hominin and attacking people. I’ m not the one who refuses to say anything but one side of a conversation, refuse to do the same for other shows and then calls everyone who disagrees with them a “cult.” That’s just you.

You failed in the very title of your post so I don’t know what you were expecting.

#rwde bullshit #dudeblade

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vincent-marie · 7 years

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Chicken Run Review

Back when I was a kid and we got "Prince of Egypt" on VHS for Christmas, one of the bonuses on the tape was an early trailer for "Chicken Run". At the time I was a huge fan of the Wallace and Gromit shorts, and seeing the same studio working on a feature film was enough to make me want to see it.

I saw it in the theaters, and it was a very fun experience for me. I got it on VHS, and it was my favorite movie for a while. I recall I watched it so many times to a point where it annoyed the hell out of my sibling.

It not only has a very special place in my heart as something nostalgic, but it's also pretty cool looking back on Dreamworks animated films when the studio was still trying to find its niche. Before "Shrek" became such a very literal monster hit and the studio built its identity on "subverting" Disney while at the same time stealing their thunder.

"Chicken Run" was the first major project Dreamworks had released in conjunction with Aardman, and was enough of a hit that Aardman would continue making films while under the Dreamworks umbrella.

But after almost seventeen years I'm finally able to take off the nostalgia goggles and ask: Does it hold up in the long run?

I'd say… yes and no.

At first I thought since it was Aardman's first film that they might have been a little rusty at doing a feature because they had previously only done shorts and TV shows. The transition to theatrical movies can be a hell of an adjustment.

However it turns out that "Chicken Run" has a lot of very solid elements on its own merits. It just has one major weak link, and it wasn't Aardman's fault. I'll get to that later.

The overall execution of the film is effectively cinematic. Even back when Aardman was only making the "Wallace and Gromit" shorts, a lot of us forget just how much they elevated stop-motion animation from just a cute little novelty like holiday specials to something that could be like a Hitchcock film. With "Chicken Run", the music is excellent, the character animation is fantastic, the voice acting top-notch, the models, props and sets well-crafted, and the majority of the characters are quite memorable and charming. (Everybody loves Babs, she's such a sweetie.)

A few things haven't aged so well about it, though, particularly the dynamic between Mr. and Mrs. Tweedy. Due to the current awareness of the abuse of men at the hands of female partners, the old Henpecked Husband routine really isn't funny anymore. On top of that there's Mrs. Tweedy insisting that the chickens organizing is "all in [his] head", and that just has a faint stink of gaslighting.

With that said, it could be read as just how vicious and ruthless Mrs. Tweedy is as a villain. That it adds a layer of pure evil; if that's how she regards her husband, then she's an even bigger threat to the chickens.

I've heard her compared to Cruella DeVille, and that's not an invalid comparison. Though with the way her chicken pies are advertised as being something warm and down-to-earth while she is vicious and greedy at heart, it reminds me a bit more of Mom from "Futurama", except not as humorously foul-mouthed. Interestingly, she too has a habit of casually slapping her sons, though that's more effectively framed as irreverent slapstick as opposed to being dark and menacing.

There really is something pretty crazy about how Tweedy's farm is run like a prison camp. Or the fact that Mr. Tweedy comes from a long line of egg-farmers but we can safely assume they didn't have any troubles with escaping chickens.

What's more is that Mr. Tweedy is right all along about the chickens being organized. I find it interesting that if the Missus hadn't been so focused on trying to make a quick profit and telling her husband to shut up, the mass chicken escape, and the waste of money spent on the pie machine that goes up in smoke, could have been prevented. If she had just not been a greedy, abusive spouse.

Now I'm going to move on to what I believe to be the very best part of the movie, and that is our main character Ginger. I daresay she's probably a one of the most underrated female badasses in animation. She's established from the start that she's clever, she's determined, and she doesn't let all that solitary confinement in the coal bin crush her spirit. And even during those times when she is at her lowest there's always something that gives her an idea or inspiration and she gets right back up.

It's also very clear that her fellow chickens are klutzes and they don't believe in her. Her escape plans could theoretically work if she just escaped by herself without the others tripping up all the time. But she doesn't. Instead she's determined to come up with a plan that could get all of the chickens out at once. Why? Because she really does care about them enough that she wants ALL of them to be safe. She may roll her eyes at them fouling up one of the plans again, and she has every right to be frustrated with them enough to want to just leave, especially after Bunty shoots her down at one of their meetings.

But she never does. She's staying with them and seeing to it that they get out as well. Towards the end of the movie when the crate takes flight, she's not even concerned that she's not on it. She's in awe because the plan worked. They are going to be okay.

On a certain level she's always reminded me of Lisa Simpson and her own sense of kindness, justice and integrity. Except that series often framed her as being obnoxious and self-righteous and therefore needed to be taken down a peg by the end of the episode. (I love the first eight seasons of "The Simpsons", but it has its problems.)

Ginger, however, is clearly in the right for most of movie. When Rocky is coaching the phony flying lessons she seems to be the only one who sees through his BS. And save for the unconvincing romantic subplot, she doesn't take any of his smug, condescending crap.

Again, the only thing that really gets her down is the physical impossibility of getting the chickens out. And, like I said before, there's still always that spark of determination that keeps her going, that gives her new ideas, that gets her back up. Nobody can hold her down.

I have to attribute a lot of Ginger's strength as a character to the voice performance. Julia Sawalha really helped to bring out a sense of sweetness and warmth to her, but also a lot of determination and a no-nonsense attitude with just a hint of snark in response to Rocky's self-serving BS.

Not to mention her integrity kindness makes for an excellent contrast to Miranda Richardson's selfish and sinister take on Mrs. Tweedy. (Who besides me would actually like to see Miranda Richardson play Cruella DeVille?)

But now that we've gone over the strongest link, we come to the weakest one in the entire movie, and that is the very existence of Rocky the Rhode Island Red.

Really what bothers me about this character is that he gets shoehorned into the story even though he does not fit the tone of the rest of the movie. Yet he becomes a major crux of the plot, and, for some reason, winds up a love interest for Ginger.

Even when I would say "Chicken Run" was my favorite movie, I never bought the romantic chemistry Rocky and Ginger are supposedly having. Their rom-com style bickering only made it apparent that they should only be friends, and nowadays the trope of "tough girl just needs a man to get her to loosen up" really pisses me off.

What's more is the whole Pie Machine Rescue sequence feels like an unearned opportunity for Rocky to "save the girl".

Now, I actually like the Pie Machine escape. The machine itself always reminded me of the sheep-shearing contraption in "A Close Shave".

But Ginger had already proven herself to be resourceful and quick on her feet, and yet she still apparently needs a man to save her. She probably could have rescued her own damn self out of that metal leviathan.

She still sort of does. At the very least, she saves Rocky's ass in the end before he gets roasted in the oven. She even does the Indiana Jones bit of going back for her hat before the door closes.

Yet afterwards even she gives Rocky all the credit for sabotaging the machine. Sure, he shoves the carrot in the gravy dispenser and causes pressure in there, but she also sabotaged it with a literal wrench in the works. Why is she giving him all the praise? She's well within her right to claim some credit too. Apparently the film just needs to further elevate and glorify Rocky.

I will say this, though. The whole "Strong Woman Who Needs To Be Saved By A Man" trope in this case still doesn't piss me off NEARLY as much as it did with Maid Marian in "Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves". In that movie it felt like it was making Marian superficially strong to make the movie look more modern and forward-thinking than it really was. Ginger, on the other hand, was already strong and well-developed in her own right and isn't just validation for Rocky's existence.

If anything, Rocky's the one who needs to be constantly propped up by the more interesting characters. He's not even very fun or interesting on his own. He is, as a friend and I have dubbed, generically cocky. He's no cheerful rogue with a heart of gold like Disney's take on Robin Hood, he's no girl-crazy, ego-driven goofball like Lupin III; he is, at best, a loose idea for a character that needs a lot more work done before the final draft of the script.

I think part of the problem may have been the casting. Not that Mel Gibson's voice acting for the character is necessarily bad, but with the way the character was written one would need a real force of personality to elevate him to an entertaining level of sleazy and egotistic.

During a streaming of the movie someone suggested that the late Phil Hartman would have been a far better casting choice, and we in the chat unanimously agreed. Yet another reason it's a crime against the natural order that we lost Phil Hartman when we did.

And there is an a very real behind-the-scenes reason for why Rocky feels so half-assed as a character compared to the rest of the film.

The short version is that while "Chicken Run" was in production, Dreamworks decided to stick their hands in the pot and Americanize it.

They introduced an American breed of chicken, played by a big name movie star who could pull off an American accent, and he even flies into the movie wearing an American flag cape.

The minute he makes his entrance the whole story becomes the tired "Liar Revealed" plot line that's been used in several lame-at-worst/passable-at-best US family features. "A Bug's Life", "Oz, The Great and Powerful", "Road to El Dorado", need I go on?

Why is that? Why has that story kept popping up in hackneyed mainstream American screenplays?

Might it be because of a subconscious social anxiety that most Americans in power keep getting rewarded and showered with praise in spite of not doing a day's work in their lives? And they're secretly afraid that they're going to be exposed as the undeserved, over-privileged phonies they really are?

Nah! That can't possibly be it.

Anyway, in the grand scheme of the plot, Rocky is ultimately useless. There's a well-known criticism of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" that Indiana Jones himself makes little to no real impact on the plot, and if he hadn't intervened, the Nazis would have still found the treasure, and still gotten their faces melted off.

Rocky is kind of like that, except he's not just a useless spectator. His whole part in the movie takes a huge chomp out of the screen time with other characters expecting great things of him, all amounting to nothing in the end, save for an narratively convenient last-minute rescue. (Which could have been avoided if he hadn't just outright ditched the chickens like the jerk that he is.)

Though, I do have to give that scene some credit: Mrs. Tweedy being thwarted by "Tricycle to the Head" is kind of funny.

Also in the scene when it's revealed Rocky could only fly because of a circus cannon, the overall execution is actually very good. There has no dialogue, just suspense. The audience doesn't see what Ginger sees when she unfolds the paper, but the look on her face indicates it's something big and not good. We don't get to see it until Ginger puts up the second half of the poster, and the revelation drops like a bomb as the thunder crashes above. The music, the camera work, the use of rain all makes for a very dramatic revelation.

I find it interesting that the one good thing to come out of the plot culdesac with Rocky is when he has already left the farm.

But not long afterwards Ginger comes up with the idea to build a flying contraption. She doesn't come up with it based on anything Rocky said, did or left behind. She's inspired by Fowler's stories of the Royal Air Force, which he had been going on about since the very start of the movie. She very well might have come up with the idea even if Rocky never flew into the coop.

While watching this movie during the streaming session, my friend who hosted it, Devon Baxter, theorized that a better story would have been if there was somewhat of an underdog theme going on with Fowler. That he could have just been seen as a joke to the other chickens but Ginger sees some value to his stories and get the idea from him to build the crate.

And now that I think of it, Mac, with her convoluted contraptions, could have also been an underdog with the way the other chickens fearfully cringed after her little catapult demonstration. Maybe like how they see Fowler as a crazy old coot, they could have seen Mac as a nut who "is gonna get us all killed".

Both Fowler and Mac could have been characters who weren't taken seriously by the others, while Ginger would be the one to see their value and encourage them to do this ambitious project of making a crate and flying them all to safety.

One can only speculate what the story could have been like if Dreamworks had just kept their mits off the story.

But with all that said, this is still a pretty good movie for Aardman's first feature film. And if this hadn't been a success, they wouldn't have been able to make the far superior "Wallace and Gromit: The Curse of the Were-Rabbit".

I'm always going to love this movie for its stronger elements. You really don't come across surprisingly well-written female characters like Ginger in mainstream movies very often. And I applaud Aardman for being one of the few studios left who haven't caved in to doing all CG animated films the way Disney has.

#chicken run #dreamworks #aardman #animation #movie review

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