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grellestie · 10 months

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I have heard the worst take and I need somewhere to talk about it and my Grelle Centered Tumblr is probably the best place for it.

The take was;

“Grelle is a flat character.”

I should preface this by saying that flat characters aren’t bad one bit! They’re needed for a story to work, actually. I do like some flat characters and it’s fun to think about them. Grelle just isn’t one of them since she just isn’t.

I would have agreed with this take if we were just talking about the anime on a surface level but this is just… not correct? Thinking about it, it could be debated that the anime did make her a flat character but I’ll discuss it later.

She is definitely more fleshed out and, while she doesn't have a lot of screen-time, a lot of her body language says enough. She heavily follows "show dont tell" which definitely leaves a lot of her to be confusing but it's kind of the point. The series is told with ciel as the protag and he's not exactly trying to understand why she is the way she is so the reader learns about her as he does.

But how do we prove she’s not a flat character?

Here’s a list I found from Literary Devices and I’ll cover how she’s fundamentally not a flat character according to this list as well as another point I saw from a different website.

The role of flat characters is to support the main character.

“The role of a flat character is to help the main character in pursuing his ambitions and goals.”

Grelle does not do this at all and actually makes the plot progress against Ciel’s favor. She actually tends to ruin the majority of his plans. Her killing of Madam and making it so Jack the Ripper was never caught by Ciel kickstarts the motivation of other characters to notice that Ciel isn’t what he seems. There’s also Book of Atlantic where Grelle attempts to ward off the kid and his pet demon. She doesn’t fit this role so she’s not a flat character here.

They do not go through a substantial growth or transformation in the course of the narrative.

“… maintains the same characteristics and outlook throughout the narrative.”

Grelle does not maintain the same characteristics and outlook throughout the manga. However, I've always been on the side that Grelle's development being entirely off-screen was a horrible idea but that’s a post for a later date. Back on topic, she has other personality traits that aren't stereotypical. She's shown to be diligent with her work yet she also has her moments of being reckless in certain moments (I.E. when she was on the Campania and attacked Sebastian believing she had time), and questioning authority which shows her perspective on said authority (I.E. During the Blue Memory arc when she confronted Othello about the council’s plan concerning the bizarre dolls), she's extremely honest while still lying (I.E. She speaks plainly yet there’s always some kind of double-meaning or… lie in what she says, I’d say she showed this enough in her debut), and she seemingly has low empathy which isn't exactly a personality trait but it's still notable since it is a part of her. There's also the showing of how she could be feeling guilty about Madam's death with the coat as well as that scene with Undertaker. And the inclusion of how reapers are created which can lead to conclusions that Grelle aint the happiest individual like she appears to be or that something happened. While you could argue that her growth shouldn’t count because it was due to criticism rather than something happening but I’d argue that it does count despite it being a little on the lazy end.

It’s a little hard to figure it out considering that a lot of her personality is through implications but that doesn’t mean she has little personality. She’s as mysterious as death!

They don’t draw attention away from the important characters.

“A flat character is not necessarily boring, weak, or poorly-written. All it means is that they are one-dimensional and not terribly interesting.”

Implying Grelle Sutcliff, the first major antagonist of Kuroshitsuji is NOT interesting is a WILD take to me. She is the first other supernatural character we see besides Sebastian (Undertaker doesn't count because he wasn't seen as a reaper yet by the cast), she literally offs the main character's family member (in FRONT of him, no less). There's also Book of Atlantic with that being her big reprise and, while she wasn't a main force in that arc, she was still important with dealing with Undertaker and her non-inclusion would have changed certain parts of the story. While you may not personally find her interesting, she makes an extreme impact on the narrative and she has taken away Ciel’s spotlight for such a long time which would mean that she’s interesting to the audience overall and definitely draws attention away from the “important characters”.

They have recognizable characteristics that make them appear stereotypical.

I have been going back and forth on this one for a while. Whether we like it or not, Grelle was a stereotype and a harmful one at that. She has seriously grown over the story to be a lot less horrible but I can’t exactly blame someone who reads her debut and thinks she doesn’t have much to offer. She doesn’t have too much personality outside of stereotypes and that’s what holds her back from not being a flat character in the anime.

However, as I mentioned before, she has grown and she has more of a personality and some of them are not recognizable on your first read through the story. A surface level read of her isn’t exactly doing her character justice and that’s what the anime did. Flanderizing her (and other characters to their core). So, to say this, Anime Grelle and Manga/Canon Grelle are NOT comparable, they’re entirely different people therefore, Canon Grelle is not a stereotype of herself.

Thinking about this harder, there’s something I thought about. Flat characters, if you were to take them out of the story, would only affect the plot in a minor way and would be an easy fix if you were to rewrite it without them. I tried this with Grelle and a lot of things started to fall flat. First things first, Madam would be alive if we are to believe that Ciel would cover it up, the Red Butler arc would have to be completely rewritten in order to make up for Grelle's absence (which is extremely hard considering the route they took with it and how the bodies were found so close to each other). The reader’s first introduction to reapers would be WAY later in Book of Circus with William but then they wouldn't even really have the need to interact since they wouldn't recognize each other nor would Will really be the main concern here since he tends to stay in his own lane. Then, when the bizarre doll plot happens in Book of Atlantic, our introduction to Undertaker would be extremely unsatisfying. She does impact a LOT of things and taking her out would HEAVILY affect things.

TL;DR

Grelle isn't a flat character. Yes, there are bits to her that can be seen as flat but they aren't the focal point of her character (especially not anymore) therefore she isn't a flat character. She's just a character who needs to be read into rather than expecting answers.

Thanks for hearing me ramble and if you'd like to have a conversation, feel free to slid into my inbox or the replies!

#black butler #kuroshitsuji #grelle sutcliff #grell sutcliff #writing tag #character study #grell

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abybweisse · 1 year

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So, I know that Sebastian was starving, and I also know that Sebastian couldn't eat Ciel's soul after he turned into a demon himself. Now my first question is, wouldn't Sebastian die since he didn't eat Ciel's soul? Secondly, If someone's soul is eaten, what happens to them? Do they die, or reincarnate, or what?

Looks like these asks are from the same anon, so I've grouped them together.

Uhhhh....

Have you read the manga or just watched season two of the anime?

Nothing in s2 of the anime matches with manga canon, so I don't analyze it the same way as the manga. Even s1 deviates drastically from manga canon.

1. Would Sebastian die if he didn't eat "Ciel"'s soul? According to William in the manga, it's more like demons go insane from starvation. There's been nothing to suggest, so far, that they can die that way.

2. What happens to someone when their soul is eaten? In the manga, Sebastian tells our earl ("Ciel"), that after he eats a soul, it eventually disappears, without having to ever face Judgement. After he eats real Ciel's soul, that kid is just dead... until Undertaker recovers the body and reanimates it. Technically, without a soul, real Ciel is nothing more than a corpse that walks and talks.

3. If "Ciel" never turned into a demon, would Sebastian eat his soul? Our earl/Ciel has not turned into a demon as of ch197, and I sure hope that isn't the plan. More than once in the manga, Sebastian has tried to get his young master to give up on his goal of revenge... just so the demon can go ahead and have his meal. So, yeah. Sebastian totally wants to devour the kid's soul. And I expect the demon to get his meal. As our earl says, servants should be paid for their work.

4. Does Sebastian love "Ciel"? You will have to show me Yana-san's blog post or tweet or whatever where she actually says this, because my understanding is that she's absolutely never said this series was ever meant to be yaoi. It does not matter that she's written yaoi before, it does not matter if she was planning to write another yaoi but then ended up writing this series instead, and it does not matter that she occasionally provides fan service to individuals who ship them. Quite to the contrary, Yana-san has expressly, publicly stated that Sebastian has no qualms about eating his contractor's soul. I'm pretty sure it was a direct tweet, some years ago. Again, I'll point you to the manga, where the demon tries to make the kid break or give up on the contract, more than once, just because the demon is hungry and because the contract is boring if the contractor lacks the ambition to see the contract through.

If you really haven't read the manga, I recommend it, though be wary of fan translations on hosting sites, since they tend to get translations wrong. Not always wrong, of course, but it's gonna have more mistakes than the licensed version.

#black butler #kuroshitsuji #sebastian michaelis #earl phantomhive #our earl #anime vs manga #yana toboso #anon asks #i answer #answered asks #feb 28 2023

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k-s-morgan · 3 years

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Hi! This isn’t an ask, but more of a rambling that I deemed too long for the comments, that stems from your post claiming Book of Circus as your favourite Black Butler episodes. and to that I say - YES. Book of Murder is a masterpiece. It houses one of my favourite scenes - the one where Sebastian says: "This wasn't a scenario decided by God or fate, but one decided on by my master, with timing decided by my master. I was killed by the criminal expected by my master, by the Hione who came to torment my master", which really captures the essence of whole 'Ciel vs God' dynamic that's woven into the duration of the show.

Throughout the plot, there are three major instances in which an offering is made to Ciel - offerings of redemption. The first is from Angela - a chance to purify himself and have an afterlife - which he so vehemently rejects in the knowledge that he quite literally *is* his darkness, and therefore refuses to rid himself of it.

The second is comes from Abberline in his death, where in his final words he tells Ciel he has a chance to take back his future. And Ciel has to watch him die with the knowledge that he has already made up his mind about his fate. I don't think he's so affected because he regrets selling his soul. I don't think he suddenly wants to live, or no longer wishes for revenge. But I believe the reason he is so affected by Abberline's death is because he holds a sentimentality for him that is not dissimilar to the one he feels for Elizabeth. Ciel is cruel, I don't think he regrets the steps he has taken to get to this point, nor the ones he knows he must take in the future. But though he is cruel, I believe he has a sort of fond curiosity for the untainted goodness that characterises those like Abberline and Elizabeth. Like you said before, he feels condescension towards the man perhaps due to the naivety his blind heroism implies, but I think his attachments to him come from an underlying curiosity to see if such goodness can exist in such a corrupted world - a silent hope to be proven wrong in his cynicism. When Abberline dies, that very hope he didn't even know he had gets shattered. It brings about a sort of forced perspective that makes Ciel question himself in ways we haven't seen before.

Abberline's death had been avoidable and it was certainly in vain. Abberline had died for someone who had already made up his mind - someone who had rejected God once before and would do it time and time again as proven in the anime. Ciel is such an interesting character because, although he is dark, he still values the light and makes some sort of effort to preserve it in spite of the contempt he feels for them. It is the thought of dying in vain that seems to bother him so greatly, not death itself. No, Abberline dying isn't enough for him to want to live again, or to even think about throwing away his revenge - that was never in question. But it is enough to extinguish the lingering flicker of hope he had for humanity (despite being so distanced from term himself).

This, combined with the disappointment he feels at Sebastian's actions, causes the existential haze of uncertainty that leads to the third and final offering. And the most surprising thing is that this offering comes from Sebastian himself. He senses the doubt in Ciel and, like every thought the boy experiences, fails to understand it. He mistakes it for him second-guessing his revenge and decides to discontinue their contract. But he isn't angry - that much is clear. Instead, he wishes him to "forget everything and have pleasant dreams", with a rather wistful expression on his face. What this line ends up reading as is a bittersweet goodbye from the demon - an offering for Ciel to let go of his revenge and find happiness in the afterlife with his now soon approaching death. There is almost a strong disappointment in him, but is not resentful of it - Ciel is human and he can't keep expecting him not to be. His offering almost acts as a thank you for the moments of excitement their contract had given his monotone life and I believe that is why he makes it.

He sticks around to see if Ciel accepts his offer, though already expecting him to, and is there to witness the very moment the boy rejects it. Gone is the uncertainty of Abberline's death and the Paris crisis, and Ciel, the Earl of Phantomhive, returns to him - sharper, colder, more ruthless than ever. Sebastian realises his misjudgement and returns to his side, ready for the final battle. Killing an angel. It's laughably symbolic.

The rejections of God, the evasion of the Hope Diamond's curse (where he even wore two rings as if to taunt the fates), the references in Book of Murder - they all depict this metaphorical sort of battle between Ciel and God. And the ending of Kuroshitsuji II is the depicts how he triumphs over fate, claiming his rightful place as an immortalised creature of Hell.

I know I've gone on a bit of a tangent here in your inbox, but that one quote from Book of Murder is so symbolic to me in the way it sets up the comparison between Ciel and God (in which 'God' represents power over fate).

Before I sign off, though, I just want to make light of the existence of the show's final offering, occurring in the last few minutes of the series. This last offering has nothing too do with God, nothing to do with any complex battle between the Phantomhive and fate, but is much simpler than that. In fact, the final offering of the show comes from Ciel, and he gives it to Sebastian - it's almost poetic, is it not?

"Are you sure you don't want to pull it any tighter?"

In this single, unassuming line, Ciel is asking Sebastian if he wants to kill him, and release himself from the eternal contract they've found themselves in. Such a noble and dignified soul as Ciel would always be sure to make through on his word and, despite the loophole that now extends their contract, he would still be willing to let Sebastian kill him should he wish to do so. The man may no longer be able to take his soul, but the boy can still give the order to kill him and free himself. Ciel's respect for Sebastian is complex and contradictory at times, but what never changes is his willingness to die by his hands and see through to his side of the contract.

“Is it over? The one who plunged me into bottomless darkness… I don’t even know why she did it.”

In the episode where Angela is crushed by the Church, Ciel offers his soul to Sebastian. Even when unsatisfied with the result, his unwavering nobility led him to make good on their deal and fulfil his end of the contract. The earl faced the demon, his expression calm, and with a steady voice said “A promise is a promise. Take it.”

This unwavering dignity and nobility he holds in himself I believe is the reason for this offering and Sebastian's turn to reject it is almost a 'love confession' (as you have brought me to see it) in itself.

As a final sort of note - I just wanted to let you know that, since reading your reply to my comment on TGSTLTH (from a while ago), I brought myself to rewatch Kuroshitsuji II with your interpretation in mind and ended up really enjoying it. You've singlehandedly made me do a complete 180 on a season I previously hated - looks like I had just watched it from the wrong perspective. So, for that, I thank you

Hey! Sorry for getting to your ask just now. I absolutely loved it :D And yes, Book of Murder is a masterpiece - I still remember watching it for the first time. It was late at night, I had to go to bed, everyone was sleeping, but I kept watching because stopping just wasn't an option, I had to know what happened next.

Ciel vs God is such an interesting topic. In some ways, Ciel and Sebastian exist in their own universe where there is no place for anyone else. There is a God aka Ciel and a demon aka Sebastian. And they are both allies and adversaries at the same time - they are tormenting each other and uniting to torment others.

I agree absolutely that Ciel holds a fondness for certain people, with Lizzy and Abberline being a good example. He has a degree of contempt and irritation for them, but they do mean something to him. Ciel's curiosity is a big and detached thing, and this places him on Sebastian's level in such an interesting way because sometimes it's almost like Ciel isn't human himself - humanity intrigues him as if he doesn't belong to it. His fascination with the light just underlines his affinity with the darkness.

I have many thoughts about Ciel's behavior during the days following Abberline's death, and you certainly introduced many excellent points! My general opinion on Ciel's motives is... complicated. I agree that he never felt like really giving up his revenge and trying to live a 'happy' life - he knew it's not for him at that stage already. However, I feel like Abberline's parting words affected him a lot, even if briefly. When Abberline tells him that he can start everything from the beginning, Ciel sounds absolutely heartbroken when he confesses, "I don't have a future." The way he acts later, telling Sebastian to stop and not kill the angel, hesitating, reinforces this idea to me. I think you described it best - Ciel is having an existential crisis. It's not like he suddenly regrets his decisions, but he's temporary unanchored and unsure what he wants and what he should do. Having a dream where Abberline urges him to give up his hatred also seems to affect Ciel, but it's so telling that he wakes up and immediately says, "Sebastian." It's a fascinating arc and I can't wait to explore it.

I love your words about three offerings - so true. And I'm so happy you liked S2 when watching it from a new perspective! I used to be so confused as to why people hated it: it's not perfect, but I thought it was amazing in many ways, especially its bittersweet ending.

#black butler #sebaciel #ciel phantomhive #sebastian michaelis #my fics

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finnyisanactualrayofsunshine · 7 years

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But he DID burn them. Why did he had to kill them that painfully? He has a demon, couldn't he tell him to kill these Children without any pain? I still don't get why he burned them. Because he was traumatised at that moment? Well... that isn't a excuse for killing a bunch of children. And I'm not here to troll or anything, I'm totally serious.

I'm sorry I took so long to answer this. I intended to answer it earlier, but then I got caught up in seeing a lot of things that frankly disgusted me, blocking 30+ people, and having a complete breakdown due to stress and lack of sleep as well as a series of bad days due to personal issues with my own mental health. I'm not saying this for attention or sympathy (although to be fair I do try and get those things a lot). I'm just explaining that at that time I wasn't able to deal with answering this or getting more involved. The topic still really stresses me out so this will be the only ask I answer on the subject, but I am answering it. I'd also like to remind that this is entirely my interpretation and although I feel personally that it is the correct one, I'm not Yana and I can't say I have the final word on the subject. It's only my humble opinion and what I got out of it when I first read kuro and what I still get out of it now. My opinion hasn't changed, and it probably never will.So. As I said in the original salty post, there are multiple factors here, and I'm not saying that there is a wrong or right side to this. It's shades of grey. So I'll list what I got out of the scene, both good and bad, when I originally watched it having never interacted with the fandom or their opinions.So there's the basic matter of the PTSD attack. A lot of people bring this up as an excuse for his actions, which fine, is valid. He is a 13 year old, put in a horrifying situation, with an undeveloped brain that's probably barely functioning, having to make split second decisions. I don't think that really would cover it if he was still just going and killing some kids for shits and giggles though. It's still a bad thing to do right? So although I think he'd deserve some sympathy and understanding for that, that's not enough.LEADING to the second point which literally everyone forgets?? And was like a huge obvious plot point?? Which was discussed several times?? You fucks?? HE WASNT JUST BURNING THEM FOR KICKS OH MY GOD HOW THICK DO YOU HAVE TO BE TO INTERPRET IT THAT WAY JESUS CHRIST YOU DICKNUTS look. He looked at these kids and he saw that they would NEVER be able to have a life. He has terrible trauma himself and not to be melodramatic but it kind of ruined his life. THESE KIDS HAD IT WORSE AND HE KNOWS IT. Like, they were going to live a life of pain and suffering in the BEST case scenario. In the scenario that they have healthy rich supportive families. So what happens if their families don't support them the way they are now and drop them off at psychiatric hospitals which would DEFINITELY be abusive at that time?? What happens if they remain unresponsive to everyone and everything and their families die and they end up starving on the streets? All this included with what they're dealing with and carrying emotionally?? Ciel looked at them, saw that situation, and UNDERSTOOD that that is WORSE than death, and he only had a short amount of time to make that decision. He was a thirteen year old having a panic attack faced with the choice of whether to kill them without having any sort of consent from them (which would make it more of an assisted suicide, however they were not in a mental position to be making that choice for themselves) or leave them to what awaited them which in any situation was probably going to be worse than death. Was it the right decision? I don't know. I'm not saying it is. But saying he burned kids as if he did it for fun or to be a dick is the most basic one dimensional view of the story, and misses the entire point of the scene. It was an attempt at mercy. To add to that, there's literally the scene on the train where Ciel explains what I just said?? And then he goes to help the orphans that actually could still be saved?? He had literally no reason to do that, you absolute fucks. But y'all are determined to demonize him because you aren't thirsty for him, don't feel any sympathy for a trauma survivor, don't bother reading between the lines of the story, or want to fetishize his immorality (I don't mean that's everyone but a lot of people talk about him being evil in a weirdly sexual way, like calling him dirty, and it's VERY uncomfortable given the character and context.)However, I am in no way saying Ciel was in the right either. What he did was HELLA problematic. Of course it was. It wasn't evil, but it was problematic. You brought up the fire, couldn't he get Sebastian to kill them painlessly. That's absolutely right. Going with the above logic, fire is not the best way he could have gone about it. I think that has a lot to do with the first point, about the PTSD attack. Reminder, 13 year old kid, undeveloped brain, horrifying and traumatic circumstance. Unfortunately, he's not going to be thinking clearly. He's not able to. So yeah, it's bad that he went with the fire method, I absolutely agree. However, I can also understand. He wasn't able to coherently think the situation through, at best he could do was see the flame and come to that conclusion, as opposed to working through it and calmly asking Sebastian to quietly and painlessly kill them all. Once again though, I'm not saying that was in any way okay. I'm just explaining the reasoning, and that even the fire part was not with bad intent. Never the less, the action and choice was bad. There's also the matter of him playing god. Which is honestly one of the more problematic things about Ciel's character. I don't think Ciel is evil but he's definitely problematic with darker sides, and he has too much power through Sebastian and tends to play god. I think there's valid reasons why he chose to kill the kids. On the other hand, it wasn't his choice to make. Whatever way you look at it, he made a huge Fucking choice for a bunch of people with NO say in the situation, and yeah. That's...not good. I remember in like grade 10 we had a debate in civics about the death sentence and my arguement was "you can argue both sides, whether people deserve it or can be rehabilitated, whether it's more humane to kill someone or keep them in a concrete box their whole life...but what it comes down to is no human person should have the power to decide if someone lives or dies." And that's what this is too. Was he right or wrong? I don't know. I've thought about it a lot and honestly, I can't give you an answer for that. But it wasn't his choice to make. He should not have been deciding whether they were better off alive or dead, because it just. Wasn't. His. Choice. To. Make.So in conclusion. I'm in no way saying what he did was okay or good. But looking at it with the viewpoint of "uh he burned a kid, evil, blocked and reported." doesn't make any sense. It was a complicated situation with several sides you fucks. As my fave said when I brought this up, "are we even reading the same manga as them?"Also disclaimer, I've already been salty about this for too long on my blog, so this is the LAST thing I am saying on the subject. I would strongly prefer that people don't reblog or add comments, partly because this is just my opinion and official statement on a subject that bothers me and several of my close friends, and partly because for personal reasons to myself that frankly aren't the business of strangers on the Internet, I am TERRIFIED of people arguing with me or getting angry with me and I have been in a really bad place this week because of the previous drama so hey, show some sympathy to your neighbourhood Lau ho and let me live my life in peace, drama free. And on that note, if I ever do post things that are salty and likely to start drama, I want you all to understand the magnitude of how much that thing upsets me, that I'm risking people beefing me over it. Anyways thank you, and goodnight.

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