#the game goes out of its way to show asgore's actions as wrong. both towards his people and towards toriel. noble yes. sympathetic. tragic. | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

silyabeeodess · 4 years

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Thoughts on Frisk, Chara, and the Player

Besides what I’ve covered briefly in the description of a comic a few years back, this is long overdue; however, since I might make something focusing on Chara in the future, I decided to go ahead and put down my two cents on these two characters. Since this is effectively a long essay, I’ll have everything below the cut:

One of the most longstanding debates among Undertale fans is the morality of these characters and their relation to the Player. Some see Frisk and Chara as effectively polar embodiments of good and evil following the Pacifist and Genocide routes while others see the Player alone as the individual in control of all choices with the two characters bowing to that control. The truth might be somewhere in the middle.

Let’s cover the most basic thing first. The Player is you. Yes, it’s your decisions that take the story in different directions, but you are not a character. You are not a part of the world of Undertale. You’re an intruder, an outsider, an anomaly--something that the people in Undertale only seem to have a vague understanding of. Characters like Flowey will break the 4th wall by calling you out for your actions, but it’s often from the idea that you’re still Chara--even if Chara’s own story played out long before you came in. Chara will ask for your SOUL, but you personally don’t actually sacrifice anything: Even as far as the game’s story goes with the “Soulless Pacifist” route, the most you lose is the time is takes to reinstall the game and play it as you normally would. You can cheat them out of “your SOUL” easily. They think you’re Frisk.

Most glaringly, however, is that both Frisk and Chara will fight against some of your decisions. For Chara, you have them not giving you much of a choice with how you end the Genocide route and declaring that you were never in control, amongst other actions like killing Asgore and Flowey. Most people might not notice Frisk’s refusal beyond the fact that we don’t pick their name like we can Chara’s; however, the point where this becomes most clear is during our interactions with Undyne on a Pacifist Run. When we try to become Undyne’s friend and she insists on fighting anyway after her house catches fire, we have the choice to fight back. Doing so though results in a weak attack, which Undyne declares as being the result of a lack of will to hurt her. That isn’t the Player’s decision, and it effectively forces us to spare her whether we want to or not.

This relationship parallels what we also see in Deltarune, with the Player there also exhibiting control over Kris, but Kris fighting back. Kris isn’t an empty vessel or puppet for the Player to manipulate, and the same can be said for Frisk and Chara in Undertale. It’s a form of temporary possession, where we--an otherworldly being--take over a host for as long a period as the game’s designers allow. It means that we can’t pin our actions on either Frisk or Chara. Let’s go back to that second paragraph though. The other characters don’t really know this, making Frisk/Chara/Kris suffer as a result.

From a gameplay perspective, this is an awesome idea to tackle. From a story perspective, meanwhile, things get a little complicated.

Here’s the thing about handling it simply as a story: The Player often has to be ripped out of the equation. Again, you aren’t a character, and the only way the Player can really be present in the world of Undertale is as an OC or persona based on the independent choices of each creator. Keeping them out means leaving the choices we would normally make 100% up to Frisk/Chara. Ergo, stop attacking artists and writers for their portrayals of those two when creators have to give them qualities that are entirely up to each individuals ideas and experiences to try and fill in a bunch of blanks. Beyond Chara’s backstory giving us some information on who they were, which is mostly told to us through other characters, there is no perfectly in-character portrayal of either of them.

Which I guess brings us to the part where I try explaining my idea of them. So let’s start with Chara, since again, they have the most background info.

What are some canon points we can cover with Chara?

Asriel describes them as “not the greatest person,” but still cared for them deeply as his best friend. From the recordings in the True Lab, we see they had a good friendship, even if Chara often took a more leading role.

Also according to Asriel, Chara “hated humanity” and had an unhappy reason for climbing the mountain.

It was Chara’s plan to commit suicide, have Asriel take their SOUL, and try to kill humans to break the barrier.

Chara laughed after poisoning Asgore with buttercups. It’s presumed by Asriel to have been an accident, but we don’t know Chara’s knowledge on the situation.

An extended monologue from Asgore has him describe Frisk and Chara as having “the same look of hope in their eyes.”

Asgore considered Chara “the future of humans and monsters.”

They refer to themselves as “the demon who comes when people call its name.”

As of the Genocide route, their goal is the complete destruction of Undertale’s world to join the Player and move on to another. They pin the Player’s actions on their newfound “purpose” to attain power.

Narration in the game is different depending on the route, speaking commonly from a 2nd-person POV on Pacifist and Neutral runs, but 1st-person on a Genocide run. This alludes that Chara is always with us during gameplay.

Chara’s dialogue mimics Toriel’s, hinting to a close relationship following the concepts of mimicry being a form of flattery and a child’s desire to be like a positive adult figure in their lives.

So here’s what I think. Chara’s hatred toward humanity is supported not only by Asriel’s confession, but also in their actions. If Chara took control as Asriel described after crossing the Barrier to kill humans and take their SOULS, that willingness to commit murder along with their own suicide indicates not only that general disdain, but also a hefty amount of self-loathing simply for being human. Whatever happened to them prior to entering the Underground, that hatred was likely only nursed further by knowledge and ideas fed to them from monsterkind: Humans hurt monsters too and monsters are supposedly “made of compassion” while “humans don’t need any.” (They may have even been bullied or faced prejudice for being human, even if it wasn’t from the Dreemurrs, just like how Frisk was constantly attacked on-site.) This likely led to a monster-centric worldview where all of humanity--and even themselves, to a point--was the enemy.

I imagine the “Mr. Dad Guy” sweater we find was made by Chara rather than Asriel because of the inclusion of “guy” at the end, since this seems like something more of an adopted child would do than a biological one, maybe not entirely comfortable with the idea yet of calling Toriel and Asgore “Mom” and “Dad.” I truly do think Chara loved their newfound family and never meant to hurt Asgore: The laugh, while it can’t be confirmed, seemed to be a mark of mental instability rather than something of true malice. With the pressure of being called “the future of humans and monsters” as well, they probably felt like they had to be responsible for humanity’s actions as a whole even if they personally did nothing wrong. From that perspective, their life--and any other human’s--mattered less than a monster’s, because they had to atone for the crimes of others. Humanity itself had to atone. This is why they would be so willing to sacrifice themselves and kill for the sake of breaking the Barrier.

So what happens when the monsters Chara placed on a pedestal start breaking their script? Asriel stopping Chara from committing murder is one thing: That seemed to be one part of the plan that Chara didn’t tell him about, probably because they knew he wouldn’t agree to it. Beyond that though? What happens when monsters stop showing that legendary compassion? Asriel started playing with lives and killed for fun as Flowey. Asgore declared war against humanity and started killing children. Toriel left her position as queen and couldn’t protect anyone. Not only was their happy family broken, but monsters started acting like the humans they claimed to be better than through their own “weaknesses” and desire to kill. They were supposed to be above humanity’s choices, above even Chara’s choices. Vengeance isn’t an excuse anymore: It’s all the same, and it feels like the ultimate betrayal.

They’re all the same. Monsters, humans, it doesn’t matter. It’s an ugly world where only the strong and terrible reign, and it deserves to be destroyed. There’s nothing left. There’s no good left. There’s no hope left...

Unless, maybe, someone new enters the game. Can they rekindle that hope or will they only prove those dark thoughts right?

In comes Frisk, who we really only know as a blank slate. We don’t know their history or their desires except to leave the Underground one way or another. We can’t really say much, so this is where it really is entirely up in the air how we portray them.

A personal headcanon of mine is that they were a bit of a little thief, “frisking” things off of others--which is why we can get G even without killing in the game. A very morally grey character, fitting the multiple routes Undertale’s story can go and Sans description of them “maybe not being a saint” even if they play as a Pacifist. Maybe they don’t really know what the right choice always is, but they desire to do their best when possible.

I can’t say much here because, as I’ve said several times now, it’s up to everyone. Me? I like a Pacifist Frisk, even if they struggling and suffer before reaching their happy ending. Some might have them go through a Genocide route on their own or by Chara’s possession. Some have them with guilt-riddled consciences and others treat them as the purest of souls. Some pick different endings.

So enjoy your interpretations, your characterizations, and your AUs. You don’t have to agree with my ideas or anyone else’s: Just don’t bash others for theirs. Undertale’s gameplay opens things to everyone’s personal experience and should be enjoyed as such.

#undertale #ut #analysis #thoughts #chara #frisk #the player #video games #artists #writers #ut fandom

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mamar12 · 5 years

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fav character thing: assgore

FJDSHBDSQJD OF COURSE YOU’D SEND THAT

This is going to be a bit long so here’s a cut

Favorite thing about them : I really love how the game makes it a point that Asgore is a symbol of hope for the entirety of his entourage, from the fact that Undyne, his pupil, is the most determined monster in the underground, to the fact that the encouragements during game over sequences are his, not to mention stuff like his death being the defining point of a neutral ending where no matter how many people have been spared, the underground has that sense of hopelessness and despair. There are a lot of elements in the game that help portray Asgore as a direct metaphor for the monsters’ hopes and dreams, and I felt like that was the most well written part of his character. The fact that while being a symbol of hope, he’s still very much a person with vulnerabilities and fears made him feel really interesting and easy to empathize with, because he’s ultimately nothing more than a gentle man crushed by his responsibilities, forcing him to act in a way he despises.

Least favorite thing about them : Asgore is an extremely well written character and his role in the story is vital and makes Undertale what it is for the most part, the core message of the game being forgiveness and acceptance, so I was kind of let down by the first cutscene of the true pacifist ending- the one where Toriel interrupts the fight and proceeds to insult Asgore for his actions. Now don’t get me wrong, I totally understand why Toriel acted that way and I by no means believe Asgore is innocent and that his actions were completely excusable, murder is still murder, regardless of the motive, but the fact that the scene was written in a way that presented no counter argument to Toriel’s flawed logic and that even a character like Undyne, who canonically overthrew Toriel in one of the neutral ending, says nothing more than “that’s rough, buddy” kind of bothered me. This is the only scene of the game I can say I “disliked” because I felt like it just didn’t paint Asgore in an objective light, and a lot of it felt kind of biased towards Toriel. It bothers me especially because the way Asgore’s death was handled in neutral was really really good in my opinion, and sadly the true pacifist ending could not live up to the expectation it gave in that regard. Undertale is still an amazing game and I still loved its ending, but this moment was the biggest letdown for me. Fortunately Deltarune’s writing seems more objective in its portrayal of Toriel and Asgore and I appreciate that!

Favorite line : There’s a lot to pick from, as a good amount of Asgore’s lines are very memorable, but if I had to choose one, I’d say this line he says after being defeated in neutral is a good summary of his character :

I do not want power. I do not want to hurt anyone. I just wanted everyone to have hope…

The game makes it a point that Asgore HATES fighting. Yet despite that, because he’s the king and it’s his duty, and because he cares about his people more than anything else, he forces himself to commit murder on a specie he used to want to make peace with, just so his people could get the slightest bit of hope left to hang on to.

brOTP : I don’t know if this counts as a brotp since I see it more as an adoptive father/daughter relationship, but I really love the way Undyne and Asgore’s relationship is portrayed in the game. The contrast between Undyne’s energetic and brutal behavior and Asgore’s gentle nature could really make for fun dynamics. And I like to headcanon that the reason Undyne is so keen on serving justice and acting as a heroic figure is because she wants to support Asgore in his own goal- more importantly, Undyne’s more brave and outgoing nature makes her the hero Asgore never wanted to be, because unlike him, she actually WANTED to take over the surface. Asgore and Undyne take a similar role but it’s their diverging personalities that make them act so differently, and that wouldn’t have happened had they not been as close as a father and a daughter.

OTP : It should be obvious by now, but I fucking LOVE Sansgore. I have loved that ship for several years now, and while it’s not particularly surprising that not many people are into it, I still think it’s kind of a shame because god, these two have so much great potential for character interactions. Because by themselves Asgore and sans are characters whose biggest purpose is having impact on other characters. Like I already stated, Asgore is a symbol of hope for the underground. Meanwhile, there is a good amount of dialogue that indicates that sans is loved appreciated for the good atmosphere he brings and the fun mood he gives with his goofy attitude and jokes. Both of these characters work similarly in that they both suffer from extreme sadness and depression but they still have a positive influence over people around them. So while sans has absolutely no hope for the future and has given up on reaching the surface one day, he manages to lighten the mood of people around him. And while Asgore has a very low view of himself and goes as far as commit suicide in a neutral ending because he values his own life less than the monsters’ hopes, he manages to bring hope to people around him.

The whole reason sans and Asgore work so well with each other is because while sans lacks hope and provides happiness, Asgore lacks happiness and provide hope. They can bring exactly what the other desperatly needs. And it’s because they complete each other so well that I love the idea of them interact, and it’s why I absolutely love that ship. There are plenty other reasons, like the lines they share, or the implied connection between these two, but that’s the biggest one.

nOTP : I don’t really enjoy Asgoriel at all. Not because I don’t like Toriel, I do get where Toriel is coming from with the issues she has towards Asgore, although I do find her logic a bit flawed, but more because these two have caused each other so much pain and suffering and I just… can’t see it being a healthy relationship ever again? They both deserve better than to be stuck in the past, and I feel like if anything, the barrier breaking and monsters being freed is exactly their cue to move on to a new life and leave the past behind. I don’t think Toriel forgiving Asgore is impossible, but them ever being in a relationship again would likely not work, in my opinion, and if it ever happened it’d likely hurt them both even more.

Random headcanon : Asgore adopts Frisk after the true pacifist ending. It’s not really a headcanon that has a lot of canon evidence supporting it, but I like to think after several runs, Frisk would start to feel more easy with Asgore and when they’d ultimately finish their journey and stay in the surface for good, they’d choose to stay with him.

Unpopular opinion : I feel like that one’s pretty obvious, but I feel like people really don’t treat Asgore’s character with the judgment it deserves. I’ve seen a lot of people imply or outright say that Asgore enjoyed his murderous acts and did it purposely, despite a hell of a lot of lines in the game showing he only acted out of rage and pressure from his people. Yeah, Asgore fucked up really badly, but I feel like people overhate him a bit much without considering things from the angle of him literally losing both his children in one night to the specie who sealed his entire people underground after massacring them.

Favorite picture of them :

Honestly off the top of my head I’d have to say the last image from this post. Because Chara and Asgore have always been my favorite Undertale characters and I wish people would explore the dynamics of that family more. I feel like when people do stuff with the dreemurrs they always exclude either Chara or Asgore and I think that’s a shame.

#undertale #asgore #sans #sansgore #undyne #chara

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