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gaawachan · 3 years

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Critical Role 135 Discord Convo (Topic: Shipping?)

Some pre-convo context: This conversation meandered a bit so there's a lot of stuff that may turn up in other conversations later; it was really late and so a lot of things were only briefly touched on.

Me: You know... people are gonna freak out if LoB doesn't just cave and romance Essek at this point. If he wasn't planning on doing so then his roleplay during the past few episodes is gonna cause backlash, I think.

Sibling: I think he was on the fence and then Matt was like, "Okay, I have to push this because I currently have plans to make Astrid a victim of Trent and/or the big bad of Caleb's arc."

Me: Certainly feels that way, lol. Matt's definitely the one that's been doing the pushing post-boat scene.

Sibling: Pretty much-- Matt has kept Essek near Caleb for every moment that he can

Me: (Caleb did tell Essek to stay close, lol) But in the past couple of episodes Liam's gone back to reciprocating. If he isn't planning on shipping it, he shouldn't do that.

Sibling: Despite Lucien's eyes. Oh for sure. I think he is though. Why else would LoB post stuff like *examples of LoB's twitter activity*? He doesn't egg on Astrid/Caleb shippers lol

Me: That's true.

Sibling: Plus, Essek is purple.

Me: Of course we weren't in the fandom when Vaxmore happened and then dropped, so we don't know if Liam did the same thing with that ship.

Sibling: God I hope not... C'mon, give us a bit of beeg yoshi

Me: Having watched half of season 1, I can say that there was way, waaaaaaaay less tension and such between Vax and Gilmore. Vax liked Shaun a lot, and Shaun was in love with Vax... but they had nothing in common, they didn't have any real theme/plot/setting/interest ties or anything. Just a vanilla relationship, like, they went out on lunch dates.

Sibling: It's funny because OTHER non-shippers came onto that ship-positive trend and started talking about Vaxmore and how more "real" it was. And I'm like, I feel like slow-burn romances are far more "real" than people hopping on each other as soon as that they get a chance (COUGH COUGH BEAUYASHA I'M SORRY COUGH). Don't disparage lunch dates, btw; there's nothing gayer than that.

Me: No, don’t get me wrong, I was actually about to post that "I can see why people like that because it feels realistic" The bigger problem with Vaxmore was simply that they didn't see Gilmore very often. I think Liam would have been more interested in continuing that ship if Gilmore had not been... well, the Pumat Sol of the campaign. Just not very relevant. This isn't the case for Essek; he is THE npc of this campaign, basically. He's more involved than any other NPC in either season. Side note: if C1 and C2 had happened concurrently, I'd have totally shipped Gilmore with Mollymauk.

Sibling: OH TOTALLY

Me: Lol

Sibling: Essek and Caleb have many interests in common, and Liam has CANONIZED Caleb's attraction to him, both intellectually and physically. They have expressed a desire to spend time together, platonically? to improve their craft. They have worked to improve with each other, speak with each other in a way that they don't with others-- not even people they're supposedly closer to. Essek has had a turn of his morals BECAUSE of Caleb's actions... What do other ships in this season have? Caleb and Astrid; they have shared misery and a past that stains ALL of their interactions. Maybe there is love left, but it would need a TON of work, and she is never onscreen long enough for that to be established. There's not really any tension aside from the viewers' "is this a villain" tension. Not even the dance felt good, it was transactional and there to hide information being exchanged and then they LEFT. Caleb and Eodwulf; Caleb said his forearms were hot, lol? But Eodwulf has even less time than Astrid, and hasn't even really piqued the rest of the cast's interest, in spite of Caleb's history with him. Caleb and Jester; Might have worked if JESTER WAS EVER INTERESTED IN HIM. AND SHE NEVER WAS AND STILL ISN'T. She was smitten with Fjord the moment she started projecting him onto Tusk Love lol. Caleb and Nott; I'm not touching this one Non-Caleb ships are like: Fjord and Jester; Sweet, predictable, pretty much how I pictured it being when it became canon. Jester being exactly the same and Fjord being openly affectionate. Maybe some priorities being changed around. Beau and Yasha; I'm NGL, I feel like they're together... because they're lesbians? And not because they actually have much in common aside from that? It's sweet, but if we're speaking purely from a like... chemistry standpoint? This one falls on its face. But, no, I'm sorry. Just because Caleb isn't literally devouring Essek's face whenever he's on screen (though he slobbers like he wants to whenever Essek uses Dunamancy), doesn't mean that the ship is "invisible". It's invisible to people who are only used to overt ships I guess But I'm sorry, I need to go back through and make a "Caleb slobbers over Essek doing magic" compilation. Because it doesn't exist yet, and yet it happens all the time lol And people are like "where attraction" RIGHT THERE, GUYS

Me: Speaking of Jester, actually. Jester's funny because early on she actually did tease/flirt with Caleb quite a bit... but then she stopped doing it. When? I'd say it happened right around the same time Caleb started having feelings for her, imo, after their waltz, when he said Astrid's name. Jester and Fjord were caged together in the Sour Nest and I think that, followed by the Fjord/Avantika arc, really sealed the deal for where her interests went. Also, Jester and Nott wrote that letter to Astrid, so by that point I think it's pretty safe to say that Jester not only was not interested in Caleb; she wasn't even interested in teasing/lightly flirting with him anymore. Also Caleb eyescrews Essek a lot... so yeah what are these people smoking? Even LoB, who has been wishy washy about the ship, has been pretty upfront about Caleb's interest in Essek.

Sibling: I don't think Widojest people want Caleb to be with someone happy and who makes him happy. Essek is not a happy man but Caleb's mood certainly seems to brighten whenever he shows up.

Me: I mean, there IS chemistry between Caleb and Jester but the issue is that the two characters view each other completely differently. She just doesn't see him that way. The other half of the equation is that Caleb tends to treat Jester as being more than just the cutesy trickster and a lot of the other cast members haven't really shown that? They tend to undermine her a lot actually. It's most obvious with respect to the Traveler. Caleb actually respects her relationship with Artagan. Other members of the group just hate him and have made it clear to her that they feel that way. That includes BOTH Fjord and Beau. Like if you compare the conversations she had with Fjord and with Caleb on Rumblecusp, it's night and day, but it doesn't matter because she just doesn't view Caleb as a prospective partner at all. She tends to frame their relationship in the same way several of the characters in the party frame their dynamics with Caleb. "I want to help him but I have no idea what the fuck to say or do." She'd still above average compared to the group at doing so but that's because of her mother's influence, not because she has feelings for him. Ngl, if I WERE to ship Caleb with someone other than Essek at this point I think I would pick Jester just because they have a mutual respect for each other. Oh oh here's an example. Okay, so Caleb's room for Jester in the tower right? It's very similar to her childhood room, but he deliberately "adults" it up, because he respects her as an adult. What was Fjord's gift to her in Rexxentrum? A child's toy. A unicorn statue. And that's cute and all, but... uh...

Sibling: A little infantilizing?

Me: Yes exactly, and it's the same way he behaves about her relationship with Artagan. One could easily argue that Fjord treats Jester sort of like she's the pixie girl stereotype, but that's just surface-level stuff about Jester. You'll notice that Fjord and Jester's conversations tend to lean cutesy and immature, but when Jester talks with Caleb, it's very often a thoughtful and deeper conversation, so I DO see why people ship it.

Sibling: I mean, but that's my problem with it. Maybe it's better than Fjorjester, but Liam doesn't lick his lips every single time Jester breathes too hard.

Me: Lol. Personally I think that part of the problem is that 1) Travis isn't comfortable with doing romance, and Fjord is awkward af, and 2) Jester/Laura has tried to get him to talk with Jester on a deeper level and it hasn't really been successful, and she's let some opportunities slip by, but Liam rarely passes up the opportunity to have a deeper conversation with other players, so he ends up having more serious conversations with Jester simply because Liam seeks out those conversations.

Sibling: Well Liam loves character romances. It's why his second character left as many options open to him as possible lol. It's the stark difference between Liam and Travis. Travis is only comfortable romancing his wife fictionally lol. Liam loves the way you can reexamine a character and reshape their ending with those choices and I think he's way more willing to just go "screw it, my character is horny AF for this wizard boy, what are you going to do Matt?" "my character is also horny for my party member, but it's probably unrequited, but I'm going to stick with it for character depth"

Me: Seriously though go back and rewatch the Rumblecusp conversations Jester had with Fjord and with Caleb. You could SEE it in Jester. Fjord was NOT saying anything she wanted or needed to hear. I thought she actually looked pretty hurt.

Sibling: Oh, I remember being like "well that was deflating" and it's why she kept asking people. She's looking for answers, and pretty much everyone pussyfooted around it becawuse she's such a cuwuty.

Me: Yes, props to Caleb for stepping up, even though he didn't give her the answer she wanted either. That's precisely the problem with her dynamics with other characters. They're too busy fawning over how cute she is and trying to shield her to get to anything much deeper.

Sibling: Whereas Caleb thought of her as a woman- someone he really liked, from... like super early on.

Me: Oddly the end result is that the non-stop shielding of Jester has inhibited Laura's ability to grow Jester as a character. Which has to be frustrating as a player.

Sibling: I think it probably has been. Especially because I think she wanted to explore how being in a romance would change her. She even hinted to that way earlier: "That's not at all how love is depicted in the books we read..." "You mean the porn books we read?"

Me: The character is rarely challenged and hasn't really been forced to change. She has changed in that she's matured from experience, but it's subtle and it isn't really acknowledged much. Nothing screamed this more than the climax of Traveler-con, where she was staring down the barrel of a monumental life-change and her cutesyness somehow convinced the planetar to be like... "fine, bye." Even MATT regretted that decision in the Talks afterward.

Sibling: Oh for sure! She just gets everything and you know what sucks? I think LAURA wanted Artagan to be taken. It would have devastated Jester but it would have forced her to change.

Me: Well actually, Laura said that she was going to offer to worship the Moonweaver instead of the Traveler if it meant she'd spare him punishment. When she said that, Matt's whole face just dropped; he was so upset that he wasted that opportunity, but that's the cost of treating Jester like she needs coddling. It's like... bro... she ax murders people... come on.

Sibling: She burns people to death with sacred flame and gets people lost in the woods by messing with road signs.

Me: She's been tortured and barely shows the trauma of it at all (can't believe that went unaddressed btw)... She can handle pushback... Like again, Caleb. Early on she butted heads with Caleb because she's a spoiled rich kid, but you'll notice that after offending him like that? She never did it again.

Sibling: Because she's a good person capable of introspection and changing her behavior to help people.

Me: It's a small thing but Jester actually became a better person precisely because Caleb didn't handle her with kid gloves.

Sibling: That even ties back to her dropping her flirting when "Astrid" was brought up.

Me: Yep

Sibling: ... Shadowgast is still better.

Me: Yep. I don't hate widojest and I think that of all the jester pairings it's probably the best, but of all the Caleb pairings Shadowgast is best.

Sibling: I mean, Shadowgast is best even by virtue of like... who else would you pair Essek with that he could still stick around the party for? He's only interested in Caleb lol. That's not to say he doesn't LIKE the rest of the cast, but back to the deep conversations thing...

Me: I've seen some people shipping Widojessek, lol.

Sibling: There's really only one person (and one group chat) where he had those sorts of opening up moments. Poor Fjord- just got a GF and people are already cucking him.

Me: Lol. Oh, man... Caleb and Essek really need to talk about the assembly. Specifically Caleb's past and what Essek's dealings with them were like in more detail.

Sibling: Matt tried to lol and Caleb was like "yeah okay i got plans, but also paper"

Me: Essek needs to be more direct because Caleb doesn't WANT to talk about it.

Sibling: He can't, he's a wizard. No melee attacks, emotionally or verbally.

Me: Well, the issue is that Essek prods at Caleb's goals, which are nebulous (so Caleb really can't give a satisfactory answer, and he also can't answer without talking about his past first). And when he prods about Caleb's past, he's too indirect. He needs to directly ask about Caleb's past FIRST if he wants more information about Caleb's goals.

Sibling: The next time they're in the tower (which I fear won't be for a while) Essek literally needs to be like "I'm drowning in guilt, you need to tell me about what I was involved with so I can manage it" He'd probably give him a few crumbs lmao. If Essek makes it about himself, Caleb is less likely to close up.

Me: Yes, that is exactly how Essek needs to frame it. "I don't have a full understanding of the nature of the people I gave power to. I know now that they're more terrible than I thought, but not exactly how. I think that in order to fully grasp what I have done, I need to know more about them." It's pretty blatant bait but Caleb would probably be convinced by it anyway.

Sibling: Oh for sure. Caleb can't exactly run away from that either; he's too chicken to flee from conversations. He freezes and either spills or clams up.

Me: At this point, there's really no GOOD reason to NOT tell Essek about his past. There's nothing to lose from it, and a decent amount to gain; it could turn Essek actively hostile towards the Assembly rather than keeping him cowering in Eiselcross.

Sibling: He's uncomfortable with it (trauma will do that) Doesn't want to get sidetracked (Essek told him not to) Haven't had a good time to do so (no privacy) Doesn't want Essek to distance himself from him (most likely)

Me: This is true, but he's already told the people who he least wanted to tell (Jester and Caduceus) ... Actually, my suspicion is...

Sibling: And neither of them pulled away from him-- eh? Me: ... that Caleb doesn't want to tell Essek because he's worried that Essek will, well... uh, treat him like a child. Caleb was so young, and telling the story of his past also means admitting that he's 11 years younger than he appears. And there is some amount of Caleb's view of his past that is irrational and he chafes viciously whenever someone tries to downplay his culpability by pointing out his age at the time.

Sibling: I think he already has. Don't try to tell me about how not patronizing that "Young Man" line was lol. It was meant in good faith but... I think Caleb does the abuse victim "the idea of ever being young and vulnerable again is terrifying" thing pretty convincingly. It's also sort of a rewind back to his respect for someone who seems outwardly childish, but is an adult whose choices need to be respected.

Me: There is another matter which... Well, Caleb is slowly coming to terms with his status as a victim (veeery slowly) but I think if Essek were to learn about his past, and taking into account their different cultural perspectives on age, Essek might have a hard time not reacting more in line with Beau/Nott's initial reactions to the full tale. Beau said she thought it was nothing to be ashamed of (and Caleb started laughing hysterically) and then Nott just full-on denied that any of it was his fault (which is completely at odds with his own belief), and since Essek's gut reaction to hearing the story is probably going to be something like "Trent is a baby torturer" ... That's not an easy thing for Caleb to stomach.

Sibling: And yes, Essek will absolutely have that reaction because at that age humans are still fetuses to him.

Me: This brings me to my final point. Caleb may be worried that Essek learning all of this and thinking that way will damage Essek's ability to see Caleb as his mirror. He may view it as a threat to the life-line he threw Essek that night in Nicodranas.

Sibling: And then it's not about bettering each other... It's about Essek being alone again and Caleb being alone.

Me: However, Essek's insistence that he is sure nothing Caleb has done could compare to what Essek has done does mitigate that risk significantly. It's just a matter of whether or not Caleb can see that and Essek can be pushy enough to get him to crack.

Sibling: I know Essek has it in him. He can forsake his country's precious artifacts to an opposing nation, he can push his BF to open up to him about his problems. Caleb, on the other hand, has been exceedingly fragile... since you know... GOING BACK TO THE ASYLUM, so I don't know if he's in a state to have that discussion, but if they don't have it soon, by the time Essek talks to him again Trent will probably be dead.

Me: Caleb is pretty blatant about his compartmentalization and deflection. He feels it's necessary in the current circumstance with the Tomb Takers, but somebody really needs to step up after Lucien's taken out and talk to Caleb about this stuff. Essek would be ideal because Caleb could benefit the most from Essek's perspective, I think, but really... anyone other than Veth is better than nothing. Going back to the Asylum was very obviously a severe triggering event and NO ONE TALKED ABOUT IT. Like, jfc, guys, Beau is right. She asked if Caleb was even capable of working alongside Trent, and Caleb said yes (if he thought it was necessary), but we all, WE ALL know that he can't. Not after that disaster.

Sibling: Especially because both Veth and Jester saw him go straight into "OH GOD WE'RE GOING TO DIE, HE'S HERE AND WE'RE GOING TO DIE, I'M GOING TO KILL HIM BEFORE HE HURTS ANYONE" and they were like "he can probably handle this"

Me: He was already borderline in that headspace BEFORE Trent showed up.

Sibling: And then afterward, he went straight into a dangerous self-destructive spiral. Like... I know we've said this before but thank GOD for that failed persuasion check.

Me: That nat 1 was poetry on so many levels. On a meta level the sheer luck of it was a delight, but within the context of the story I think it was great that Essek is just like... "No. I am not crossing this line, not even for you."

Sibling: It worked narratively, meta-narratively, and saved Matt from having to draw up a bunch of ambush situations made by Volstruckers when Trent inevitably backstabbed them.

Me: Can you imagine poor Matt trying to play the Tomb Takers, Trent, Astrid, Wulf, and Essek... AND Charlie/Devexien?

Sibling: He already forgets to play Essek, and he only had a few NPCs to deal with.

Me: Even purely from a gameplay standpoint, can you imagine all the loot they Nein would lose in Aeor if they had brought scourgers with them? What if they found that dunamis machine?

Sibling: EXACTLY.

Convo ended here, but I had some more thoughts. It was just too late to keep talking. For example, I like FjordxJester and BeauxYasha. I think they are actually complicated relationships but they just haven't really had the room to be deeply explored/examined, for example. I also did not go into nearly as much detail about my thoughts on VaxxShaun as I would have liked to mostly because that ship wasn't the point of the discussion. ... oh god how do I even tag this?

#critical role #critrole #critical role spoilers #critrole spoilers #caleb widogast #essek thelyss #shadowgast #jester lavorre

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