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secretly-a-nerd · 3 years

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Destiel is bad for mlm. An essay with comebacks.

CLARIFICATIONS BEFORE I START: DESTIEL FANS DON'T INTERACT WITH THIS OF COURSE!!! Btw, I am mlm, I have a loving boyfriend who acts like Castiel while I act like Sam a lot... so yeah, I'm a Sastiel shipper so this post may come off as a little biased but I want to help other shippers who are against Destiel. So if you're not a Sastiel shipper, still, don't leave- I'm not forcing you to ship it. That's wrong to force someone to ship. I'm also anti-Dean person. In this post, there will be spoilers for Supernatural.

Ight let's put this show on the road... first off...

WHY DESTIEL IS BAD: -Yes, the ship is mlm and if canon, will be a mlm ship... but it’s bad rep. Why? Because if you want good representation, you gotta have a good relationship and not be queerbait for about 12 years. Dean literally beat Castiel up multiple times (even without the Mark of Cain). Let me ask you this fellas in a relationship... do you beat your partner? Bark commands at them 24/7? See them as a monster at times? I don’t think so.

-Stepping away from the ship itself, the fans are toxic and normally straight cis women who think they know what’s good for mlm or fetishizes mlm. (However, I’m not saying everyone who ships Destiel is straight and a cis woman) Also, the Destiel shippers will often times force others to ship that ship with them.

-What is mlm fetishization? People who solely love mlm ships- they barely have any wlw ships or straight ships. Just... mlm... or forces two males together, even if they are straight. They are or the equvialent of asking a gay male to be their 'gay friend'. That is very toxic. Destielhellers... get a new hobby, something healthier than reading/watching sexual assault, emotional abuse, and physical abuse.

COMEBACKS:

-When Castiel raised Dean from hell, he didn’t do it because “he loves Dean!” It was because Castiel is a soldier, a perfect soldier too, created by God to obey orders without question. When Castiel was first introduced to the show, he didn’t understand human emotions nor actually feel them so how could he quickly love Dean? Castiel also raised from Sam from hell.

-“#Theysilencedyou” on Instagram... the CW didn’t silence you, no one did. It was never canon in the first place. If Destiel was canon in the first place and Dean says “I love you too” OUT LOUD to Castiel, then killing Castiel off and NOT GIVING Dean a happy ending would be a “they silenced you” moment. But did that really happen? No. In the end, Castiel and Dean got a happy ending, just not together. And WOAH WOAH WOAH DON'T PULL CHARLIE INTO THIS. The show does a good job of giving her a lot of screentime about her sexuality and whatnot. She got a girlfriend multiple times. Her first death... she died in a Joan of Arc kind of way too which is awesome to me- but that's not the point with Charlie. She didn't come back in the finale because of covid and it's heavily hinted that everyone in the alternative universe place did go to heaven. I bet you anything she's in heaven right now.

-Castiel’s last words were the words he said in 15x18. He was dying. The empty was getting him. Those were his dying words, if he had said those while not dying, I would understand “they silenced you” there too. But Castiel didn’t say it while NOT dying, right? Also, there are different types of meanings behind "I love you" such as the friendship kind, which I say "I love you" to a lot of my friends, there's the family kind, and yes, there's the lover kind. Castiel most likely meant it in a family way since he said- same with Dean- that the Winchester brothers were like family to him.

-The CW writers aren’t homophobic. Here’s a list of the lgbtq+ characters from their other shows:

-Sara Lance (Arrow) -Alex Danvers (Supergirl) -Clarke Griffin (The 100) -Nyssa Raatko (Arrow) -David Singh (The Flash) -Anissa Pierce (Black Lightning) -Toni Topaz (Riverdale) -Teddy Montgomery (90210) AND MORE.

Granted, there aren't many gay men in that list. That's because they haven't found an actor who would feel comfortable playing a gay man... toxic masculinity happens guys... Reminds you of a certain character in Supernatural?

-“Kill Sam/Jared!” Sadly, I’ve seen that comment. Firstly, if you kill Jared... that’s literal murder and... dude that’s so extremist... you shouldn’t wish death upon anybody. Secondly, Sam is a main character in the show. He’s Dean’s brother. If Dean was left alone with Castiel, it still wouldn’t happen. Why? Because like we saw in the finale (15x20), Sam was mourning after Dean and it left him to FOREVER remember his brother. Dean would be the same if Sam were to die and go to heaven. Dean’s and Sam’s brotherly relationship is the glue that keeps it all together in the show. One brother is very rarely without the other in screentime.

-“Sam is Destiel’s number one cheerleader!” Okay, no, I get where they get it from... the episode, Fan Fiction (10x5). But Sam was messing with Dean because he knew how squirmy he’d get. Dean sees Castiel as a brother... and imagine being shipped with your friend that you see as family. Horrible, right? because it’s getting rid of the aspects of your relationship? Sam even shipped himself with Castiel in one of the scenes. So how would that make him a cheerleader of Destiel?

-Destiel fans admitted to being queerbaited, which is bad and can lead to other shows in the future doing that. I’m gonna add the definition of queerbaiting: "a marketing technique for fiction and entertainment in which creators hint at, but then do not actually depict, same-sex romance or other LGBTQ representation." -from Wikipedia. I'm sorry but there was little queerbaiting with Destiel... because Dean would CONSTANTLY be a jerk to Castiel then we'd have like... one scene where Dean wasn't a jerk to Castiel in the episode, then never see a scene where Dean was kind to Castiel until two episodes later.

-"Dean isn’t straight!!!" Yuh he is straight, have you seen him with a man? Let alone, feel comfortable with one romantically? I'll type up all of the episodes in which he was passively homophobic later on... AND don’t push Sam into this saying some stupid stuff like “he’s homophobic!”

-“Jensen is homophobic!” I actually used to believe this until I woke up and did some research on that. How that started was by Dean, the character Jensen plays, not saying "I love you" back to Castiel/Misha. They're practically forcing the ship to happen. Jensen was just following the script, same with Misha. They're under a contract guys, they don't have much say in it. However, there have been some rumors saying Jensen is homophobic even before 15x18. I cannot confirm this but I've heard that Jensen did decline a fan's request to hold a pride flag... but there's not much context behind it because the fan themself could of been weird and creepy and harassing Jensen, or forcing Jensen to say Dean is something so he needs to hold up that pride flag. Or... yes, Jensen was lowkey being homophobic...

-Destiel fans are signing stuff to change the ending... like??? That won’t work. The cast's contract with CW is done. Also, this like the equivalent of Trump’s “STOP THE COUNT!!” and “I won the election!!!”.... changing stuff to make people believe you are right. That's hella manipulative. -[Insert that one shot of all of the crew together at the end of 15x20.] Destiel fan: "WHY WASN'T CASTIEL THERE?!! WITH DEAN IN HEAVEN?!?!!?!?!" Okay, firstly, Jack wasn't there too and he's now God, covid happens and the writers really wanted Bobby's actor to be there ((I forgot why, I'll add it in later!!! BUT THERE'S A REASON)). Mary and John Winchester could of been in that finale... there are so many characters that could of been in that finale guys, but COVID-19 happened. The lack of characters was for the actors' safety. I don't know about you but some show isn't more important than my own safety. Besides, the contract is about to be lifted, and they had other shows to act in.... Jared with Walker... Jensen with The Boys...

-"How is Destiel bad for mlm...? It's gay ship..." I already answered that question, but I just wanted to remind you guys that Destiel fans WILL ask this. But I'll sum it up for you guys: it's fetishization because you're pairing up a toxic man who sees that other person as another brother/best friend. Also, that 'toxic man' isn't bisexual. He always has been with females and makes lowkey homophobic remarks. On top of that, Dean has beaten Castiel up sooooo many times, both physically and mentally. ***This essay is a WIP... and I take constructive criticism. However, if you are a Destiel fan and write about this, I will ignore you.

#destiew #anti destihellers #stop fetishizing mlm #i will literally die with these opinions #dni destiel fans

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speakgermanhier · 5 years

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This is gonna be long

Though I only really watched the first season of the original Roswell series, Maria and Michael were my OTP before I even knew what an OTP was. Their relationship was fraught, they had undeniable chemistry, and it was a relationship to root for.

In Roswell, New Mexico, to say that Michael and Maria would be a forced thing or rushed or anything like that would be completely inaccurate. The scenes they’ve had together are filled with flirty energy. And it has been established that Michael has been sleeping with women while Alex has been away. (And we can assume Alex has been sleeping with men while away). The potential is there, whether for a fling or something more.

HOWEVER, the intense, “I see you” chemistry that defined Michael and Maria’s relationship in the original series is now firmly in the grasp of Michael and Alex. They are the on-again, off-again pair that keep being pulled back to each other, filled with intense longing, explosive sexual chemistry, and past hurt.

If we were to forget Alex for a moment and Michael were to sleep with or start seeing Maria in Roswell, New Mexico, it would have a very different energy than their pairing in the original series. As I said before, their energy together in the new one is flirty, there’s potential there, and it could be the start of this new, healthy, and unencumbered relationship. It hasn’t been shown to be a fiery passion like they had in the original (or like Michael has with Alex right now--couldn’t forget him forever) but perhaps it would be good for both of them. And perhaps they could get there.

Knowing how the past show went and given the flirty energy between them (and given that it’s The CW), it does seem inevitable that they’ll hook up. It doesn’t feel as destined as it did in the first iteration or as destined as Michael and Alex are being framed so far, but I definitely feel like it’s being teased.

And perhaps the writers could pull it off EXCEPT for the fact that Maria and Alex are BEST FRIENDS. And here is where I get filled with dread.

Forget the fact that I absolutely despise love triangles--I don’t think they do any of the characters any favors. This PARTICULAR love triangle would be especially disastrous.

Maria is not just a woman that Michael has chemistry with, she is one of Alex’s best friends. For Michael to make a move on Maria (or reciprocate a move she makes on him) he would either have to be completely insensitive to how that would impact both Alex and Maria, not just with their relationships with him, but with each other as well (which would be out of character, he is neither a callous nor a stupid person) , or he would have to firmly and unequivocally be done with Alex (which is not how love triangles work). Because having a love triangle between 3 characters where 2 of them are best friends and having the characters keep going back and forth between each other stretches credulity and, I feel, destroys all 3 characters and thus, my enjoyment of the show.

I mean, it gets tiring to see love triangles when the 2 (or more) potential love interests involved DON’T already have a deep connection that ties them together completely independent of the romantic love interest. I can just imagine how devastating it would be to watch a love triangle, like there might be here, when they DO. Because it is not just the romantic love that gets messed with, it is the friendship and sense of family, security, and support that we’ve seen between Maria and Alex that gets messed with and potentially destroyed as well.

I’ve been seeing people say they don’t want Michael and Maria to happen because they don’t want her to turn into a plot device, which is pretty damn presumptive and insulting, both to her character and to the writers. I mean, they have been working really hard to develop these characters individually, outside of any romantic plot (e.g. Maria’s running her own business while taking care of her mom, Alex’s confronting his abuser, and Michael’s search for understanding and accepting his past). To just assume all she could bring to a relationship is the angst 2 men need to finally get together is not showing respect for her character.

I don’t want them to get together because I don’t want to see the drama of how it will affect Michael and Alex’s relationship AND Maria and Alex’s relationship. Whether Maria develops feelings for Michael and makes a move (or finds out about Michael and Alex and doesn’t make a move) or Michael makes a move on Maria, I feel like there are enough real moments of joy and angst/drama in the show that are far more engaging than pining after someone in a love triangle. I feel like the writers are better than that and that the characters deserve more than that.

Beyond Maria and Alex’s relationship, there is how it will affect Michael’s character, that he suddenly becomes the type of man who will mess with people’s emotions like that, knowing what Maria and Alex mean to each other. I like these characters, watching them every week is a pleasure and the drama they experience feels real. Their stories are engrossing, separate and together, the writers are doing a great job developing characters that feel real, and the contrived drama of a love triangle feels like a betrayal of that.

While I never want to tell anyone who to ship, I think everyone should let people ship who they ship, those who see Michael and Maria as endgame, can you understand why Malex shippers might be overprotective, reactionary, and prickly? We have a canon m/m relationship with two fully fledged characters who are getting separate character arcs as well as an epic, feels like endgame, romance that is getting the same serious treatment and development as heterosexual relationships, but it’s precarious. With all of that development and groundwork, from the very first episode, just to be leading to Michael and Maria, it would be unexpected and like having the carpet pulled out from under you. In the first episode, Michael and Alex were framed in parallel with Max and Liz and yet we don’t expect a separate endgame for them. Yet, with the canon of the first series, the flirtatiousness between Michael and Maria, and the ever persistent resistance to have gay/bisexual characters be happy together, it does feel like a threat is hanging over us that the writers might go in that direction despite all logic.

And speaking of logic, Alex has been set up as very integral to the show outside of his romance with Michael, so if Michael and Maria are endgame, where does that leave Alex? How do we get from how drawn these two men are to each other (Michael “I never look away” Guerin and Alex “I feel 17 again” Manes) to a healthy and happy relationship with Maria where Alex can find peace and acceptance with their relationship and Michael doesn’t look like complete shit? Because will Maria be happy to lose her best friend for a guy? Because Alex and Michael, as we saw in the very first episode and have seen again and again, are still very much hung up on each other and not ready to move on in any meaningful way.

When I say I don’t want Michael and Maria to end up together, I’m just talking about in the actual show, in the canon--people can do what they want in the fanon, that’s what fix-it fics are for. I just don’t see Michael and Maria working as endgame and I see the drama involved in such a relationship as unavoidable and hurtful instead of entertaining. And honestly, you’re not going to make a move like that and completely ignore the drama it produces.

Finally, I do see Michael and Alex as endgame, they certainly have been framed that way so far and I just don’t see how the writers can have Michael sleep with or have a relationship with one of Alex’s best friends and still make it believable that Michael and Alex end up together. If Maria weren’t one of Alex’s best friends, maybe, but given that she is, Alex just does not seem like that kind of person. Nor do Maria and Michael, for that matter.

#Roswell #roswell new mexico #michael guerin #alex manes #maria deluca #malex #anti michael/maria #michael vlamis #tyler blackburn #heather hemmens #carina adly mackenzie #the cw

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alwayswritewithcoffee · 7 years

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Idk how far into supergirl you are, but I wanted your thoughts on Kara/mon el dynamic. Half the fandom hates him for getting in the way of lena/kara, others think he is sexist and toxic and what not. Mann makes me miss the good old castle fandom where at least 99% of fandom was supportive of caskett. I guess it's just my first experience for a cw type show. I think I'm probably gnna stop getting involved in the fandom

I haven’t had a chance to watch last night’s episode because of some real-life stuff, but I’m gonna say something that’s bound to be unpopular.

First of all, shipping wars are stupid. Ship who you want, but recognize that not everyone is going to agree with you and not everyone has to love who you love or want them together. But, if you are shipping something the show isn’t pushing, you also have to accept that things didn’t go your way and don’t try to pee in the Cheerios of the fans who like the other ship. Just as the fans who got the ship they wanted don’t need to dance on the ashes of someone else’s ship dreams. Ship who you want, be respectful to the others who don’t. Kum-ba-ya, my Lord. Moving on.

Now, where do I stand on it? Kara Danvers isn’t into Lena Luthor, and there is nothing in the show that suggests she would be. Lena’s sexuality and her feelings for Kara are totally up for debate, but Kara is a little nerdy puppy dog that loves a boy and just won’t admit it to herself because she’s socially awkward and terrified of all of that stuff. So this concept that Mon-El’s appearance got in the way of Kara/Lena makes about as much sense as people upset last year that Kara’s crush on James got in the way of Kara/Cat Grant. That was also a ship that was never going to sail, and while I don’t begrudge people shipping the characters that they want to ship, I am not on board with being rude and petulant and demeaning towards the people who aren’t on the same bandwagon as you, especially if your ire is solely because the show went a different route than what you wanted it to.

Now, could Kara change her mind? Sure she could. Supergirl did a pretty great job earlier this season of tackling a character’s (Alex Danvers [Kara’s sister, in case someone here isn’t familiar with the Supergirl canon]) sexuality and dealing with the admission and changes that brought to her life. There’s no reason they couldn’t bring in a character, or write a storyline where Kara finds herself attracted to a woman. But it hasn’t happened yet, and given that she’s been openly attracted to several different men over two seasons, I don’t know that they will ever go there. And that’s fine because not everyone in the world is gay or bisexual. Some people are just heterosexual and never question that or feel a tug towards some of their own gender; that’s also fine. We want entertainment to be more reflective of the world we live in, and in this world, some people are straight, some are gay, some are bisexual. It’s all good.

Now, Mon-El as a character is meant to be kind of an ass. His whole arc is about coming to Earth, discovering that he’s more than just this frat-boy who loves to party. Is he sexist? At times, but he’s also a character that’s trying to work on himself and be better. He’s also a product of the planet he grew up on and, quite literally, he doesn’t always know better until he learns a lesson. I understand that might rub some people the wrong way, but I am never a fan of characters who are perfect and know all the answers and never carry flaws. Mon-El is flawed, so is Kara. So are Alex and Maggie and Winn and J’onn. That doesn’t mean they don’t deserve to find someone and be happy, and their flaws or the worst parts of them don’t mean that someone can’t find them attractive ala Kara with Mon-El. So long as he’s trying to be a better person, I can get behind it and goodness knows that the guy has had to eat a lot of crow when it comes to getting his footing and navigating Earth.

And I do wonder if a lot of the upset about Mon-El is just from people who are mad they aren’t getting the ship they prefer. I’m not involved enough in the Supergirl fandom to make that statement with any certainty, but I’ve been in enough fandoms to know that usually the people who hate a character the most are the people who just think he (or she, whatever the ship may be) isn’t good enough for the other half of the ship and find reasons to support the argument by vilifying a character whose arc might not automatically warrant it.

My advice, Anon? Ignore it. If you like Kara and Mon-El (so do I, so you aren’t alone), who cares what everyone else in the fandom says. Don’t let that keep you from being involved in the fandom if you love the show and want to be apart of it. Just love the ship and don’t apologize for it. Let the haters hate.

#not castle #kara zor-el #kara danvers #mon-el #mike matthews #karamel #lena luthor #cat grant #supergirl #anonymous stuff

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