#but yeah i'd say there's at least A kind of love between augustus adn livia

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How do you think Augustus felt about Livia?

It's a bit hard to parse out how the man felt about anyone, just because he controlled his image so tightly that nobody ever publicly saw anything he didn't want them to see, save for some very rare exceptions (ex: Augustus is recorded as having become publicly emotional three times in his entire public life, and two out of those three were very likely deliberate performances meant to engender a specific response, though one of them was definitely just spontaneous emotion). And with the added caveat that trying to ascribe feelings to historical figures can be very tough because those involve private thoughts that we are just not historically privy to, especially during the Antiquity where we're just missing so many records, I think it's fair to say that there was some kind of love there.

There's a lot of misconceptions around their relationship because Augustus and Livia just have very negative public reputations (Augustus just due to the popularity of Antony and Cleopatra as a couple, which means that most stories of this time are about them, slotting him into the role of antagonist or even outright villain in contrast to them as protagonists; Livia due to the popularity of stories like I, Claudius, which painted her as a scheming manipulator and burgeoned outward from there) that sees them both as people who didn't care about anyone, let alone possibly each other, and were in this relationship purely for opportunism and power. That's not to say that they didn't care about the power or opportunities the match would have afforded both of them, they clearly did; I've never bought into the legend that Octavian fell in love with Livia at first sight because nothing I've read about the guy, Mr. "hasten slowly" himself, shows someone who made snap judgments without thought. Octavian had prestige from his relationship to Caesar, and his family was influential in their Roman suburb, but he didn't have the patrician family roots that Livia did, and marrying her would have given him additional prestige to really solidify power. For Livia's part, her family was on the downward spiral after having repeatedly been on the wrong side in recent wars (her father fought for Brutus and Cassius, her first husband routinely was opposed to Augustus not just at Philippi but also during Fulvia's War and my beloved Siege of Perusia as well as siding with Sextus Pompey when he opposed Octavian), and allying herself instead with someone who was shoring up massive amounts of power and influence in his own right would have been hugely beneficial for her and her children. There was absolutely a calculus that went into this relationship and in figuring out what both parties could bring to the table to make the marriage viable against some not great optics, like Livia already being pregnant by her first husband and Octavian getting ready to break his alliance to Sextus by divorcing Scribonia (literally on the day she gave birth to Julia, my man you couldn't have waited a day?).

But I don't think that means that there wasn't any feeling there. For one, again, there were some bad optics involved as well as changes in alliances, and Livia definitely needed Octavian more than he needed her; he could have absolutely found some other patrician woman to boost up his pedigree by association rather than one from a family that had constantly opposed him. I wouldn't be shocked if there had been some emotion behind choosing Livia specifically, that when they met (sources say she was personally introduced to him before they decided to get married, so they had at least one chance for rapport) they formed a connection of some kind and an appreciation for each other. We also know that Octavian, as he grew in power and especially once things steadied in Rome and he got his name changed to Augustus, still relied on her as a source of advice and listened to her as a counselor, in spite of her gender and the extreme patriarchal nature of Rome. Augustus, when it comes to Livia's role as an advisor to him, actually had Livia occupying a space very similar to the one he had originally occupied for Julius Caesar: not just being an advisor and a trusted someone at their side, but also someone you could ask to intercede for you with The Great Man either on your behalf or on the behalf of someone you cared about. That Augustus allowed this at all shows a care for her, because he was big on the rigid societal structures and propriety of Ancient Rome, what with all his family laws and his strong stance on morality. But I do think the strongest indicator of love between them, since I do believe there was a love between them, is in the fact that they stayed married.

Livia and Augustus were married for 51 years, from 39 BC until he died in AD 14. And it is honestly wild that, in all that time, they never got divorced. Divorce in Ancient Roman times was exceptionally easy. Literally all was required was that one of the parties move out of the house and that's it, you're considered divorced legally and religiously in all ways that mattered. That's why, when you read about these people, you see how often they're just getting divorced right and left at the slightest provocation, Augustus included, divorcing Claudia and Scribonia with relative ease. But not Livia, even though the marriage wasn't doing the one thing most political marriages really need to be doing: bringing in children. Livia and Augustus never had any children, and only ever one pregnancy, which ended in a stillbirth. Given that Augustus specifically really needed an acceptable heir, as he was trying to build a hereditary autocracy that relied on power being passed down from father to son, rather than the semi-democracy Rome had at the time, this is a big deal. We know that Augustus struggled with heirs, mostly because everyone he ever wanted as an heir kept dying before him (which has to suck, just on a personal level, given that a lot of these were family members that he'd been close to and viewed as his own children, sorry man), and he probably would have very much liked to have a natural son to prepare to succeed him, rather than bouncing around. And given how quickly it became apparent that his marriage to Livia was not going to give him any children at all, let alone any sons, he could have easily divorced her with just a few words and found someone else, especially after he cemented his power following Actium and patrician prestige was no longer as important as his own personal presence. But he didn't do that. For a man who always thought ahead and always made decisions based on how they would advance the goals he felt he needed to have, irregardless of personal feeling (the existence of the Second Triumvirate is basically proof that Augustus, very quickly in his political career, developed a habit of shunting his own personal feelings to the side for the sake of doing what needed to be done), choosing to stay in a marriage that wasn't really offering him anything beyond the companionship of a woman he loved is very weird. It speaks to the amount and the depth of feeling there, that he decided to remove political calculation and opportunism from his thought process and decide to stay in a marriage that wasn't necessarily advantageous, because he wanted to, because he cared about and loved the person he was married to.

All in all, I think he cared about her, probably did love her, and even if there was some opportunism in the match, it seems to have been a marriage between two people who enjoyed being together and liked each other.

#personal #answered #anonymous #roman history #octavian #livia drusilla #i'm generally quite wary about ascribing specific emotions to specific historical dynamics #just cuz again we don't Know and here specifically there's a lot of missing information #but i'm at least comfortable in saying that they liked each other #'oh but amelie you don't have a problem saying agrippa and octavian loved each other-' because i have eyes #because a lot of their relationship in stark contrast to the marriage with livia was done VERY publicly #and we have a lot more info on it and how reciprocal it was #but yeah i'd say there's at least A kind of love between augustus adn livia