#bishounens are lesbian coded

[roleshirked]

Do u have a long post somewhere about why you think bishonens are lesbian coded? Cause i would like to read it. I see it as the other way, bishies are het coded its why bifauxnen (females that resemble bishies) tend to be into men sch as with Kashima in GSNK and the protag in Ikemen Danso Reiya but nonthlsss lesbians like bishonen imagery bc gnc women are deemed unpopular and ugly thir ssa deemed bad & dirty irl while bishies are hearthrob princes with fangirls whose f-attraction is celebrated

i don't, mostly because it's a meme take, but i am so glad someone else sees a nugget there, lol!

the non-meme answer is super subjective: growing up as a kid plugged into the internet age and reading any josei/shoujou manga i could get my hands on, i wound up projecting way more onto the bishounen in those stories than i did the women protagonists. these are stories written primarily by straight women for other straight women, and as a result the men often (though not always) come off as way more sincere and compassionate and enigmatic and charismatic than men irl. also they're super pretty. so as a little closeted lesbian girl it was super easy for me to equate that with "i could be that!", especially since bifauxnen were so few and far between. i don't think i even discovered the term until my twenties.

you mentioning bifauxnen is huge though and i do agree they tend to be not nearly as lauded in fandom circles, which is weird imo. i disagree that they're het-coded; i think they're lesbian-coded also, but often shoehorned into het relationships as endgame in order to upkeep the genre and/or not sideline other plots. but i also latched onto them for the same reasons i do bishounen despite that: they're gnc, they embody masculinity in a way that is wholly not masculine, etc. etc. rose of versailles is to date my favourite piece of media of all time and oscar francois de jarjayes is my favourite character of all time. i have and had and will get into internet arguments with people who try to force a trans narrative on her, it tells me they didn't read the story or pick up on its tenets at all. ikeda-san has gone on record stating how oscar stepping into her womanhood and identifying it in her own way despite how her father raised her is directly a reflection of japan's expectations of women and wanting to subvert them in the 70s.

i think the reason we see less of characters like oscar or kashima or haruka or even utena is equal parts a genre problem and a reader problem. if we consider the market, most women who enjoy bishounen content do so because it's fulfilling a fantasy, and a woman character taking the place of that decidedly male character, even if aesthetically they are identical, ruins the fantasy. and if we consider the genre, bifauxnens more routinely pop up in stories where either the plot's focus is not romance or the character's focus is not romance. and if they're made to be romantic, they are paired with a man as endgame (see: oscar's side-stories with both marie and rosalie but ending up with andre), because it is likely the story this is taking place in is a shoujou/josei story, and so they have to preserve the straight woman's fantasy, etc. etc. i'm not saying you're wrong, just that the "access" to these two types of characters are different. i would kill for standard josei/shoujou stories that had bifauxnens instead of bishounens! i want nothing more than unassuming lesbian content that caters directly to my aesthetics. unfortunately my tastes and the genre i primarily consume tend to be at odds (and i fix this by developing my own lesbian bifauxnen content, but i am not linking that here, sorry.)

this is super rambly and has no point, i'm sorry! i'll leave you with a rec for a comic that is recent and features a semi-bifauxnen as one of the two women (!) protags, "The Guy She Was Interested In Wasn't A Guy At All!". it's a cute femslash comic about two classmates, one who is mistaken for a boy while she's working by the other, and shenanigans ensue.

#bishounens are lesbian coded #ask

[qqchurch]

huh, a sports manga with airsoft as the focus while the MC is a girl that keeps getting clocked as a boy so she just wears the boy’s uniform all the time and gets into technically homoerotic sports rival tensions with the rest of the bishounen cast

depending on how this plays out, this should end as either transmasc gay coded or transfem straight coded (or the surprise lesbian ending)

otoh, it looks like it shifts hard into a sports manga with all the interpersonal drama that entails and a quick look into the fandom shows that m/m ships are the biggest thing there (with the MC actually barely showing up at all), so uh, yeah, that doesn’t bode well

i guess i’ll pass on this even if the “girl hiding as a boy but wants to be acknowledged as a girl” trope is one of my faves

[lesbiangiratina]

Kurama?

Sexuality Headcanon:

He has enough gay coding that studio pierrot had to make him say he wasnt gay. So he is gay

Gender Headcanon:

Hes certainly not cis. Like as shuichi i guess. Slightly spiteful hc bc of togashi being like Ha ha kurama gets mad when ppl think hes a woman. Jokes on u old man.

A ship I have with said character:

I can vibe w any combination of the main 4 really but theres just something about the inherent romance of being partners in crime :)

A BROTP I have with said character:

Main 4 obviously but like. Botan?? I dont remember if they ever really like... talked. They should be friends.

A NOTP I have with said character:

Answering with botan again thats gay lesbian solidarity right there

A random headcanon:

I think it would be cute and funny if he taught hiei about Human Things. Like when he taught him rock paper scissors. That was wonderful

General Opinion over said character:

I think hes really interesting!! Im just bad at explaining why!!! I love his eventual acceptance of his new self and his view on humanity as someone who has been hurt and then healed by it so to speak. Also hes funny we need to talk more about how funny he is hes The Bishounen but his hair is canonically damaged and full of plants and he tactlessly ignores every girl that likes him thats just hilarious

#i love him i love him very much #asks

[roleshirked]

Your convo with bara anon reminded me of my uncle. He's unapologetically gay never ever been with a woman but is a gynecologist and his fascination with vulva influenced him into pursuing that career. I really DONT get it becasue theidea of me being an urolgist and examining dicks and balls all day sounds like a nightmare torture. I wnt to be nowhere near one bare. Perhaps you and i have higher level of repulsion than those type of lesbians and bis u were discussing hence we can't do those leaps

i'm keeping that name now. bara anon. i wonder how bara anon feels about it, lol

that's equal parts fascinating and also a little creepy (sorry to your uncle, i'm sure he's a fine guy). i guess it can be likened to enjoying Thing from afar but not wanting to participate in Thing. like sports, or if you're me, chess. couldn't pay me any amount of money to actually play chess but i love observing matches.

"Perhaps you and i have higher level of repulsion than those type of lesbians and bis u were discussing hence we can't do those leaps" - you're probably right on the money with this one. it speaks to human nuance and i like that a lot. where it specifically concerns characters and fanfic or smut, it sometimes isn't strictly about sexuality or sexual catharsis; there are so many variables there that enable people to draw so many different lines, in terms of comfort and catharsis. empathy goes a long way.

(reminding myself to practice empathy for lesbians who draw baras sucking each others' dicks is peak comedy, but hey)

#ask #bishounens are lesbian coded #bara anon #they get a tag now

[roleshirked]

[If i had such a specific and underrepresented taste, i would want to see more of them. and if i had the power of a fanartist, i'd just draw that, instead of the "male equivalent".] But that would require being highly aware that what you want is another female, and thus you a lesbian (or bi). If you want to escape and bury that realization, making men helps you remain comfortable and disengaged. So u focus on fragmented traits (like bodyhair and fatness) + cover up with dick n he/him pronouns

I guess this circles back to the origin of this all which are self-proclaimed lesbians who draw this stuff. There's no escaping or burying there. It's "women 🥺🥺🥺" in one tweet and then flagrant bara porn lovingly rendered in the next three.

I think the way you explain it makes perfect sense, I'm just unable to empathize with that large of a leap, so it's hard to picture if that makes sense. It's so hard for me to look past the undeniably male signifiers...

"Making men helps you remain comfortable and disengaged" - this is probably the only angle it could make sense to me completely where human sexuality is still a factor. That dissociation from the female sexuality experience, even in fiction where it's safer to explore these things. Or it really could be as banal as "I just enjoy these two gruff men in particular as characters and want to smash them together like barbie dolls as a natural step in their imagined character development".

I think my tl;dr on all of this is:

You do you.

.

.

.

But. 🤔

#ask #bishounens are lesbian coded

[roleshirked]

[Re: the fanart comparison] that's what i mean. Some probably don't do the bishie thing because it's not hitting the right spots. What they want is the kind of butch that is bulky, hirsute, rugged, maybe older too and that's pretty much nonexistent everwhere. Drawing somthing like those youthful smooth elves as m/m or f/f is meh because its the opposite of what they crave. Some of these women desire "the ugliest lesbian type imaginable" but cant bring themselves to admit it others just are bi

2/3 To illustrate my google Anna Turaeva and then google Phranc. Both are ssa female and look rugged, but see how anna is not hairy while phranc is not hairy nor big bodied. That's the closest example i could think, and it took me 2 decades to even know these women exist, and they STILL dont have all the traits combined. Now compare with how many chubby elder bearlike men are out there irl and in m/m stuff from day 1. Millions. Male bears are reality female ones are like stigma loaded mirages

3/3 On the ace lesbian thing, my first inclination is to think these are bi women who want to engage with their OSA from a place they deem safe. It's also possible the woman is just ace and confusing same sex platonic preferences for romantic desire. Still it's possible they're still an actual lesbian, for example see her experience: youtube com/watch?v=hnkuEsGFcUY/ she got her libido killed with meds and gravitated to m/m. See the comments of th vid too, some had similar trajectories

hmmmmm. i think i see your point and i agree with the purview that these Super Butches are well outside the scope of easy consumption, especially in fandom/fiction. ex. ask any average fandom lesbian drawing this stuff what their idea of butch is and they'll probably say like ruby rose, instead of boo from OITNB (just examples). the description of "stigma loaded mirages" is very apt.

i disagree that the lesbians/"lesbians" who draw gruff bearded dudes sucking each others' dicks are thinking of these women when they do so, though, and would instead wager they've never seen someone like Anna or even Phranc in their lives. this toes dangerously toward baseless speculation which i understand isn't helpful in the discussion, but i guess it's because i just don't understand it. like at that point if i had such a specific and underrepresented taste in women, i would want to see more of them. and if i had the power of a fanartist, i'd just draw that, instead of the "male equivalent".

maybe i just have a really hard time looking past the beards and turgid, veiny dicks lol. it could be just that simple. it's one thing when i'm reading a fic and can skip past or can substitute my mind's eye with something else; it's another when i'm met with fanart that gives me much less room to mindbend stuff.

tl;dr i think my bottom line is i agree they are either just bi or, possibly, are in that camp of lesbian who explicitly do not get off on drawing or writing erotica, and the choice to draw the gruffiest dudes with the most explicit dicks is a confusing one but for them not a sexy one.

i've seen the video you linked! when i was in the very early phases of thinking on things critically, she was one of the first channels i found. that's another great perspective so thank you for reminding me it's out there. it reminds me of the fourth perspective/reason a lesbian might consume slash (and not just the easier-to-consume bishounen types but also the gruff, hyper-masculine bear/bara types): because she has not reckoned with her own body or her own sexuality yet, but implicitly understands her same-sex attraction, and has a need to manifest these feelings somewhere. if not in f/f, then it may as well be m/m. i have at least two lesbian friends who are in this camp (though admittedly their tastes are milquetoast - think whatever shounen anime is popular at the time, or like, shipping their male oc with g'raha tia finalfantasy) and subjectively this was my experience too as a very young teen. like the further removed it was from me and my body and my experience, the easier it was to consume.

if you're still around anon i'd love to know your thoughts! this is a great dialogue.

#ask #bishounens are lesbian coded

[roleshirked]

what you are missing is probably some (many?) of those lesbians are bi (closeted or in denial) but dont want to identify as such, or maybe they have something like autoandrophilia, where they get horny for the idea of being those men bc its still homo in their mind but either they dont have that kind of ref for lesb stuff & its the closest they have to a rugged butchxbutch thing they crave tha softie gnc and pixiecut F/F doesnt properly fulfill or internal shame& lesbophobia ruins F/F stuff

is this in response to my vent from the other day? because you're probably right on all fronts.

semi-related, i sometimes think of one of the most insane roommates i've ever had. she was married to another woman (well, an nb lol) and so played the lesbian card at every possible opportunity, but i also routinely had to listen to her describe how she wanted to get railed by X male character of the week. bonus, she'd refer to that male character as a lesbian. as if that makes a difference. i see this so often online too. she was high femme to the point of it being satire (eg. she and her QuEeR eNbY wife went to ridiculous lengths to perform Femme and Butch in front of people when we had company or on social media, but both were at each other's throats constantly and lived like slobs behind closed doors, both reasons i hightailed it out of there) so i don't think it was AAP. just bi in denial.

"a rugged butchxbutch thing" - i could maybe believe this to a point, this is one of the reasons i think there are a good number of (actual) lesbians who still ship slash stuff, but look at the difference between like. this:

and this:

and i ask you, dear anon. is the latter butchxbutch, or just unapologetically malexmale? i specifically tried to cherry pick tender moments from both fanartists so the comparison could be clearly 1:1. i don't think there's any world where you can look at a pair like the latter and mindbend it to be butchxbutch. bonus points, the latter fanartist IDs as an "ace lesbian" but it took me 5 media posts of the tattooed dude sucking the other dude's cock before i found a sfw image. so.

maybe to your point someone like the artist that draws the second one probably has AAP, or something else going on. or maybe...

here's one: how do you (or anyone else reading this) reckon with lesbians who prioritize the character interaction over their own personal feelings? eg. "i read/create the fic/the doujin/the erotic fancomic because i'm invested in the character's sexuality, but it doesn't turn me on". i feel this is probably more common? but even then, no amount of me wanting to see two characters having a go at each other would make me want to draw them sucking each others' cocks from slightly different angles for 5 media posts in a row...

#ask #bishounens are lesbian coded

[roleshirked]

Does Cha So-wol from Fight class 3 count as a lez bifauxnen in your eyes?

to me no, but i do think she's a beautiful example of a visible and unapologetic butch! i am so in love.

bishounen are usually defined as being prince-like, svelte, gentle/"softer", elegant, and androgynous - i think it has to hinge on that "more elegant" aestheticism to qualify. simply being androgynous doesn't encapsulate the appeal of bishounen or bifauxnen, imo

#bishounens are lesbian coded #ask

[roleshirked]

to the sweet anon who gave me the site rec, thank you i appreciate it! i checked them out and followed them here too. maybe one day if i work up the courage i'll write a piece on my silly bishounen theory lol. thanks again for the rec!

#ask #bishounens are lesbian coded

[roleshirked]

I think bifaux and otokonoko are cool and it sucks theres like 1 chara like that at most in a story. Yeah the readership issue is tough. most likely a comic like that will be indie cuz japan is still quite trad and homophobic in a subtler way despite all the tech. For a mainstream thing i think it'd have tobe a side couple so greedy producers greenlight. Thx 4 the rec♡ I do know of 3 which are GL check out Savior (Jo9), Namae wa Mada Nai, and an anthology called Boyish² i hope u like them

i remember seeing boyish^2 making the rounds on twitter, i'm glad to see it mentioned again. and yeah everything you mentioned is right on the nose; it's about more than just straight fantasy this or genre that, there's also cross-cultural expectations and demands at play, there's the differences between published work vs indie work, public reach, etc. - lots of aspects stacked against bifauxnen (and otokonoko) in general

i appreciate your recs in return, i haven't heard of the first two so i'll give them a look! in return i want to suggest the music genre of danso. it's similar to visual-kei in that the aestheticism is centerfold in delivering the message or feeling of the music, and in the particular case of danso, that aestheticism is specifically women dressing up or performing as ikemen/"pretty boys". if you're familiar with takarazuka, i think you'll really love danso. from what little i know the music tends to mostly be pop with some groups toeing a bit toward rock. i used to really enjoy The Hoopers but they've since disbanded; i think right now Fudanjuku is probably the most popular group that is still active. (i have a lot of complicated and mostly negative feelings about the idol industry in general so i've since distanced myself from this entire scene, but it's hard not to admit how much joy seeing these group concepts brought me at the time...)

#bishounens are lesbian coded #ask

[roleshirked]

tumblr com/fretami/702270220474155008/ thought u'd like to save this

is it normal to immediately assume any and all links are just gonna be bots/spam/viruses/etc. lo? so far the ones i've received have been kind of cool...

(if anyone else braves opening the link, it's rumination on how gender ideology erases butch lesbian representation and uses a specific example, haruka tenoh/sailor uranus from sailor moon)

yeah i've seen this excerpt before! and i love that the poster references takarazuka too, and this particular piece (talking about how a specific part of the revue cast, otokoyaku, are specifically recruited and trained to play male roles):

i said similar in one of my bishounen/bifauxnen posts! how they aren't designed to resemble men, not romantically. it's a fantasy; a dream. it's something for women to project on, either straight/bi women for their fantasies or, in my case when i was younger, for gnc women to project on for their aestheticism, outwardly and inwardly.

this entire post was lovely, thank you for sharing. i sometimes look at the current state of the young internet and my heart really bleeds for younger gnc and/or lesbian women who have to watch in real time as their only scraps of representation are being told they're something else by their peers. i remember being at that age and looking to these characters as solace when i couldn't find it IRL. it's difficult, and isolating, and already hard enough - i couldn't imagine having to also endure then having a friend say, "actually, that isn't a woman, that character is clearly genderfluid/trans/nb/etc.". because my follow up thought would be, "OK, so is that what you think about me?"

in hindsight, maybe a part of the reason i'm still vehement about this kind of stuff well into my 30s is because this kind of conversation still happens IRL. with people i've known for years and with newfolk both. me getting asked my pronouns all the time or just being blanket they/them'd even after asserting i'm a woman, but my friend with long hair who is 2 inches shorter doesn't have to jump through any of those hoops. it's exhausting and a little demoralizing.

#ask #bishounen are lesbian coded

[roleshirked]

tag rolodex

#bishounens-are-lesbian-coded : generic media tag and also the tag where i store half-serious takes that pertain to my stance that, well, bishounens are lesbian-coded

#jeanne-d'arc : all media related to the eponymous woman

#lgb-history : with a heavy focus on feminist history specifically, but also documenting instances of attempted historic erasure and how both the feminist and lgb movements have evolved over time

#male-violence : any and all instances, inclusive of physical, emotional, mental, and verbal violence

#medical : all things related to the female body, the science of understanding our bodies, and the medical industry at large

#peaking : meant for materials that expose the motives of the other side of the fence, the kind that are too hard to ignore and, to any reasonable person, should be eye-opening. specific to the broader tenets of radical feminism

#protect-gnc-people : instances of gnc people being celebrated, instances of gnc people being coerced for existing, or instances of gnc people being platformed

#religion : usually thru the lens of religion as a parallel for gender/sex oppression, but often also just reblogs that have anything to do with it

#save : trying to use this as my resource tag, so it's either really great and digestible 101s or it's thought-provoking posts that could be worth to share with other people

#thoughts : original text posts

#tra-nonsense : similar to tra-receipts but usually less overt and more petty, eg. nonsensical tiktok reposts

#tra-receipts : meant for materials that expose the motives of the other side of the fence, the kind that are too hard to ignore and, to any reasonable person, should be eye-opening. specific to tra/genderists material

#tags