#and while i haven't watched heartstopper i do have to agree

[unreadpoppy]

if someone is criticizing the representation of a certain group of people in media, even if you do identify with that representation, they are not criticizing you.

Just because I'm saying a certain way a character is portrayed is part of stereotypes in media and that we need new and different sorts of representation, I'm not talking about people who are like that IRL.

Please, stop thinking people are talking about you.

#a few ace people on twitter were saying that although they are happy with Issac's ace rep in heartstopper #they wished they would see different types of rep for asexuals #because it's always an introverted character who doesn't like sex #or something amongst those lines #and while i haven't watched heartstopper i do have to agree #i want to see more ace rep with people who are like party animals #people who have high sex drives and who do fuck a lot #who are weird and funky and part of queer subcultures #and now i saw some people being like well but i saw myself in isaac and people criticizing the rep made me feel bad about myself #and im like i get it #but also #no one is talking about how you a real life person acts #they're talking about how it is tiring that the rep we get is not diversified #it's always the saem #a fictional character is different from a real person #like it is absolutely amazing that you see yourself in Isaac #that's the whole point of representation #we need different types of rep so that other people can also see themselves #cause whenever i see an ace character who doesn't like sex #or doesn't know a thing abiut sex #and they're always the shy and introverted one #i'm like fuck now people are gonna think i don't know shit about sex

[spaceorphan18]

I enjoyed reading your thoughts about Heartstopper! I've binge watched the show last weekend (thanks to your reader's recommendation :p) and I was waiting for your opinion on it (you often have insightful and interesting opinions on shows and movies ^^). I quite agree with you overall, though I probably liked it less than you, mostly because I'm not the target audience (I'm in my 30s!) and it felt a bit too "cutesy" to me! To stay on LGBTQ topic, have you watched the "Red, White and Royal Blue" movie? It's on Prime and I was really happily surprised by it so I'd be curious to know your thoughts on it (if you've watched it, or recommend it if you haven't yet) :D

Oh thank you! That's so sweet of you to say. I always feel like I'm kind of obnoxious in my opinion-ing, lol. <3

Oh, I'm definitely not the target audience, either. Though I think I went in with the mindset that this is definitely for teenagers and not me, and I think that helped the overall enjoyment. As you could see, though, I still had issues! As I've seen these storylines played out in different version over the course of a very long time, lol.

I have not seen Red, White, and Royal Blue! I've been a little on the fence about that. I read the book back when it was first out -- and I didn't like it that much? It's so steeped in current pop culture -- even name dropping real time politicians, celebrities, and royals, that it felt a little... cringy to me. Plus, it felt a little too close to fanfic for me?

Idk - what do people think? I don't have Amazon Prime, so it might be a while if I do get a chance to see it -- but have you guys liked it? Is it less cringy than the book?

#<3

[absolutebl]

been trying to find a good place to create discourse on bl but not even reddit or mydramalist can satisfy me so i look to you!

There's this discourse on twitter recently where Alice Oseman's, the author of netlix's new western bl called "Heartstopper," old comments resurfaced regarding her thoughts on bl. Needless to say, it was met with a lot of tweets where it was between western BL and Asian BL. The problem here was that Alice Oseman's comments pointed out that some Asian BL's or "yaoi" were "fetishistic" and HeartStopper tries to avoid that, and while I agree that some BL's do have that kind of theme, it's not really nice to generalize all of them into that one category. Lots of Asian BL's have done more than what western BL's have. But what do you think? Was Alice Oseman correct when she said that Asian BLs are seen as a "fetish?" Are western BL's more progressive when it comes to BL's? 

Is Heartstopper Even BL? 

I haven't watched Heartstopper and it was partly this discourse that made me not want to. I question, from the outset using “BL” as a term to market Heartstopper at all. (And I do think the producers and distributors are using it to MARKET it.) For comparison, would we call Love, Simon a BL? Because I would not. I’d call it a gay YA romance. But I bet if that movie were releasing right now they’d market it as BL, and that’s ehhh... disingenuous? Having still NOT seen Heartstopper I’m temped to call it being touted as BL the same. Because if they (author/production/director) correct for all the things they’ve decided are “wrong” with Asian BL (or “wrong” with yaoi) in a Western narrative... feels a bit white-washy but also maybe cultural appropriation? Why call it BL or reference said BL at all, if you do that? You’ve made something else, haven’t you? 

(Please I just don’t want to watch it. I’m scared of being annoyed by exactly this, but if we keep talking about it I might have to. Sigh.) 

But all that said, there is a lot of problematic content in a lot of origin yaoi (not all of it, of course) and early BL (actually, yeah, most of it), especially from a queer perspective. 

So it’s hellishly complicated and highly nuanced and fraught battlefield. 

(Once more, tho, I object to the word “fetish” being used regardless.) 

All that said, there is also the need to consider separating the Heartstopper series and its marketing and production from the artist author’s original intention, content, and inspiration. Because the nature of authorial intent is an entirely different conversation, and whether art can or should be separated from its artist etc... And for that I’d have to read the original Heartstopper graphic novel and I am unequivocally not going to do that. (I’m sorry but I do NOT like her art style AT ALL.) 

All that to say, we have another conflation problem on our hands, if you ask me: a conflation of Western gay YA romance/romcoms with Asian BL with origin yaoi. I don’t think they’re equivalent simply because they tackle similar base-level content of two boys-of-a-certain age falling in love. Nor do I think they are necessarily equivalent because they are both adaptations of gay narratives from graphic to screen. 

To your questions, I think I tackle much of how I personally feel about it in these posts :

This one on fetishization

This one on the difficult things about BL (like dub con)

This one on linguistic and cultural differences around notions of queerness

And this one: Will BL Get More Honestly Queer? 

And, here to support your statement “not all BL,” is a list of BLs that are honest to the queer experience IMHO.

Now if those who HAVE watched Heartstopper would like to weigh in, the discourse can commence. But keep it polite and intellectual please, or I will turn this post private in a pink milk minute. 

#asked and answered

[arthoebyers]

ik i keep talking about heartstopper but i just have to talk about the fact that imogen is getting hate on the same level as ben and harry, EVEN sometimes more and i haven't shared a long rant take in a while

like are we watching the same show? what did imogen do so wrong that you hate her more than

- a boy who uses charlie, makes him feel like he shouldn’t be in the world & that he ruined his life, and LITERALLY assaults him

- a boy who goes out of his way to make charlie and tao miserable. asks charlie personal questions & constantly targets charlie for being gay, AND calls him a slur

NOTHING. nothing at all.

all imogen did was be an awkward teen who had a crush on her long time friend and didn’t know how to really go about it. the most thing she did wrong was say they were “basically together” when they weren’t.

she took nick turning her down super well although she was hurt ( she had every right i mean he agreed to a date and then ditched her ) AND was extremely happy for nick and charlie when she realized what was happening.

misogyny with female characters who do absolutely nothing wrong is still going strong and it is infuriating because even in fiction girls can’t do anything without being called a annoying, or a “pick me”, or be demonized when what they do is NO WHERE NEAR as bad as what males do

and i really don’t care that it’s just fiction because if you can’t handle a girl just being a girl in fiction than how do you treat girls you know in real life? exactly.

#i am UPSET #i will kill for imogen ok #heartstopper #imogen heaney

[olderthannetfic]

the conversation surrounding heartstopper going on in this blog is so interesting. for full disclosure, ive been keeping up with heartstopper for over two years now, i think, and was super excited for the adaptation. i haven't finished it yet, but im fully aware that i look absolutely insane while im watching it. i physically cannot sit still. there's something about it that just brings me joy.

also for full disclosure, im not usually one for overly sanitized ships and i do often prefer mlm ships. i ship batman and the joker in all their fucked up and complicated glory; i was reading harry/voldemort fanfiction on ffnet as early on as 14 years old, and it was smutty fic too. so i can definitely say that the main couple in heartstopper is not my usual jam and that it does not evoke in me the same type of fixation the aforementioned ships do.

BUT that doesn't remove any of the enjoyment for me. as much as I see my queerness in the Other and the Weird and the Freakish, there's also a part of me that sort of aches for the soft, young, queer experience I didn't get to have when I was in middle school or high school. And Heartstopper soothes that ache really well. Maybe it just speaks to my inner child that desperately wishes they could have had THAT image of queerness in their life, rather than it being something hidden, something bad, something that had to be confined to my computer screen and websites I was too scared to tell my parents about.

There's a conversation to be had, of course, about purity culture, overly sanitized media, the voluntary blind eye turned to the sexual aspect of teenagehood. And I agree that Heartstopper is guilty of all those things. But, I suppose that what I want to say is that there's more to it than that handful of problems, and different reasons as to why it seems to appeal to so many people

--

It looks well lit and shot with some cute actors. It's live action m/m that many people can get access to. I don't think it's mysterious why it's popular even aside from the exact merits or weaknesses of its writing.

I'm not interested in it because I didn't like or relate to this kind of thing when I was a teen either and nothing about that has changed.