#also fuck off rebirth that's not canon to me there is no prelude to the wedding in dc canon there is no prelude to the wedding in dc canon

[unrestrainedbalderdash]

Thinking about Riddler and Query and Echo they are besties they platonically love each other he has friends :)

#mayhaps this is mostly fanon #since i sadly do not have any comics with them #but i just watched an analysis video #and ough. my heart. #also fuck off rebirth that's not canon to me there is no prelude to the wedding in dc canon there is no prelude to the wedding in dc canon #the riddler #query and echo #murderous galpals

[forevercloudnine]

I know basically every Riddler fan unequivocally hates Prelude to the Wedding: Batgirl vs. Riddler, but I originally read it in a vacuum straight off of “War of Jokes and Riddles” after avoiding all modern Riddler content for years, and I thought it was both a) the most novel approach to Riddler having a “romantic interest” since Joker’s Asylum in 2010, and b) ridiculously loaded with (probably?) unintentional subtext. So here’s why I think it’s interesting, which for me is basically equivalent to being “good.”

The Wedding Thing

So, the inciting incident that leads Edward to seek out Barbara is the discovery that Batman is marrying Catwoman. The idea that Batman could not only fall in love with a criminal but decide to start a life with them makes him reconsider what he thought was possible, and wonder if he could potentially achieve something similar.

Arguably, that much would be a natural reaction to any supervillain finding out that Catwoman is marrying a superhero (“You can do that????”), but what’s decidedly less rational is Edward’s subsequent conclusion that if X = BatCat wedding, Y = Batgirl is his soulmate.

What makes this especially disturbing is that Edward and Barbara have clearly never interacted before; it’s stated multiple times in the comic. So Riddler basically just saw the bat symbol on the chest of an adult woman and assumed that they were kismet (I wonder if he just lucked out in not choosing Kate, or if he’d heard through the grapevine that she doesn’t swing that way). 

This is pretty fucked up. It’s also inherently self-defeating, which interestingly enough, seems intentional on Edward’s part. In their final confrontation, he notes that despite having led her on a wedding-themed riddle quest across Gotham (having her rescue a florist, a DJ, and a priest), he’s not delusional enough to think that they would ever actually get married. In his own words, he’s no Catwoman; this New 52/Rebirth version of Edward has killed too many people to believe that he could ever end up with a superhero.

(This is offtopic, and forgive me for momentarily pretending that comics have internal continuity, but this bit did remind me of how in Batman Annual #4, Edward gets angry at Bruce Wayne for getting amnesia and thus being able to escape his brokenness enough to get married and have a “happy ending.”)

Batgirl vs. Riddler ends with Edward saying that Batman marrying Catwoman has forever changed his perspective, and his confrontation with Batgirl was him trying to grapple with a question that has been eluding him ever since— “what if?” Readers might point out that if he was wondering “what if” he wasn’t a serial killer and could have normal relationships, then putting a bunch of people in death traps for a superhero to save was a really stupid way to solve that mystery for himself. Which... yes. Yes it is.

This comic is kind of the opposite of Joker’s Asylum, where Edward is trying to solve the riddle of how to “win” a woman... and then discards her as soon as he succeeds, because she was just a puzzle to be solved. Here, Edward seems to be trying to solve himself, and is using his “love interest” as a tool to do so. He might even be hoping that Batgirl will solve the puzzle for him, though obviously his ego would prevent him from actually saying that. The pageantry of leaving clues for wedding themed crimes is pretty clearly just an excuse to guarantee an audience for when he talks about himself. And he does A LOT of that.

The Monologuing

Nearly the entirety of this comic is just Batgirl listening to audio tapes that Edward left for her, in which he goes into uncomfortable detail about his personal life that Barbara clearly doesn’t want to hear. She learns his favorite music, that he considers himself a former “mild-mannered software engineer” (a career that doesn’t fit with any of the other canon information we have about his past, but... whatever), and that he is under the impression that he’s Batman’s archenemy (keep pushing that narrative, Eddie). She also learns about his “history with females” (his words).

He describes how in his previous romantic experiences with women, he was attracted to them “for a time, in a way,” but that after his initial curiosity had passed there was “no real feeling” to the encounters. He tells Barbara that Joker’s anger and distress over Batman marrying Catwoman caused him to reconsider why his relationships with women were always so passionless... and hilariously concludes that he must be a “sapiophile,” and he’s just never been with any women who were smart enough for him.

My Inevitable Riddlebat Conclusion

So to summarize: Edward heard that Batman was marrying a supervillain, was shocked by the fact that this was a possibility and started obsessing over it for himself, re-evaluated all his previous relationships with women and realized that he had never been fully interested in them, and decided that his real soulmate was a person wearing a bat costume. It really reads like Edward was halfway to realizing he was in love with Batman, then reversed gears and decided to project his sexuality crisis onto a woman he’s never met instead.

Through this lens, it’s pretty notable that Edward isn’t really doing anything to seduce Batgirl at all. He’s just doing the same riddle-crime routine he always does with Batman. Beat for beat, Batgirl vs. Riddler is actually incredibly similar in structure to “Alone,” one of my favorite Rebirth Riddler comics: the main difference is that the panels of Batman solving Edward’s riddle hunt is offset by Edward talking to his psychiatrist, not monologuing into a tape recorder. Again, not to imply that there is any internal continuity in comics, but that story also features Edward hoping someone else will “solve” him— Edward himself is confused and torn over why he continuously leads Batman directly to him in their games, and gets angry and disappointed when his psychiatrist misunderstands his motivations rather than figuring him out.

Unlike “Alone,” all Edward’s dialogue in Batgirl vs. Riddler is recorded ahead of his crime spree. When Edward on the tape recorder tells Batgirl that he anticipates that he might fall in love with her if she successfully solves all his riddles, it’s framing the entire escapade as an experiment for himself. Barbara’s feelings don’t even matter, since Edward is assuming from the get-go that she would never be interested in a mass murderer. He’s basically testing whether he would fall in love with a woman who checks off all the same boxes that Batman does, right down to solving his ridiculous riddle crimes while wearing bat ears. 

Regardless of Riddler’s feelings towards Batman, he obviously spends this story testing a hypothetical of what actual love would be like for him, even though he believes that it’s not something he can actually have. Barbara, despite having never met the man, is the unfortunate target of this self-exploration. Interestingly, she does come to some understanding: after kicking Edward off of a building, she decides to bite the bullet and call Nightwing, realizing that dwelling over the “what ifs” of their relationship was much more miserable than facing potential disappointment by being honest about what she wants.

#riddlebat #edward nygma #riddler #barbara gordon #batgirl vs. the riddler #prelude to the wedding #meta #everyone hates this comic but it's a huge part of how i see rebirth riddler's character so i feel compelled to defend it #of course everyone also hates rebirth riddler #so maybe it's just a lost cause #god knows rebirth isn't the hill i'm going to die on #but i still think this comic is gay so here #seven google doc pages of analysis. fetch

[essayofthoughts]

I've seen a lot a hate for the ship but not a thorough explanation of why. I wanted to see the pros and cons of them. The effect it has on Wanda in the comics and in MCU, same for Vision. In which scene in the movies made people dislike it and which part in the comics made people explicitly hate. . . I don't think I'm doing a good job explaining why I want a Meta on it. My reasoning looks all over the place to me.

Yeah, I’m not entirely sure what you mean with some of this but as for why people don’t like and why they do, I can do that. I haven’t read enough comics to have a firm idea of the impact in comics, or what scene in the films makes people hate it (though if I had to bet it would probably be Wanda putting Vision through the floor, or like. Generalised fan hate for Wanda due to goddamn fandom misogyny and fucking Tony stans) or what scene in comics made people hate. A lot of those things are seriously subjective and personal and the hate for WandaVision is not just limited to the personal. Anyway.

Main reasons I’ve seen people say they don’t like ScarletVision:

They feel Marvel is pushing it too hard with all their nods to the comics.

They didn’t like the relationship in the comics in the first place.

They think Wanda’s abusive because she shoved (the practically indestructible) Vision through the floor and…

They find it squicky because Vision is technically a year old in CACW.

Now, I don’t mind the nods to the comics too much [1], and sure you can dislike the relationship in the comics, but it was very significant, producing the first incarnations of Wiccan and Speed (before the death, time-jump rebirth and other shit) which drove the House of M plotline, which has had a huge impact on the Maximoffs in general [2], and so… I can see why they’d want to reference so enduring a relationship. You can dislike it if you want, but I don’t especially think there’s a need to hate on it. Find it personally obnoxious, sure. Want to desperately avoid it, sure. But honestly, fandom’s need to try to justify their hatred of something or to be incredibly judgy is something I find deeply grating these days (hence the vagueblog the other day) so I think people need to tone shit down some.

As to the “Wanda’s abusive thing”… Vision did literally lie by omission to her regarding keeping her under house arrest. Let’s look at two other cases where she was lied to.

Strucker and List! They recruited the twins in This Scepter’d Isle tie in prelude comic, and claimed to be SHIELD by speaking of “our Avengers, our Iron Man”. But they weren’t and, as you see, the twins readily abandon them when the fight comes to the castle.

Ultron! “You were supposed to make a better world!” “It will be better!” “When everyone is dead?” And what happened then? She set Helen free from the sceptre’s control, she and Pietro got the hell out… only to return to fight Ultron alongside the Avengers.

Wanda, simply, does not like being lied to. If she offers trust then to betray it is one of the worst crimes you can commit against her. The same holds true of Pietro in comics, it’s the reason for the end of his relationship with Crystal Amaquelin. To break their trust is a surefire way to earn their ire and Vision is clearly very close to Wanda by the time of CACW… and he lied to her. 

Besides which, he’s indestructible. From their conversation we see that they’re both very much regarded as Other by the other Avengers and by the public - the android and the witch - and they seem to understand one another’s capabilities. Vision begs Wanda to not leave not to refrain from putting him through the floor. Being put through the floor is easily survivable for him. He is literally made from Vibranium. He can phase through solid matter! He can alter his own density! He’s also an android who doesn’t think like we do, he’s genuinely surprised that he can be distracted because his way of thinking is very very alien to that of a human.

So if Wanda’s abusive, so is Vision. But given their conversation at Leipzig Airport when Wanda finally stops fighting, it seems like they’re generally quite open with their emotions and their thoughts. They each understand why they responded as they did and don’t seem to hold it too much against it each other. So, honestly, I’d say they have a healthier relationship than some (Pepper/Tony has a few problems, so I actually Do Not Judge Pepper taking a break from him in CACW) especially given that Wanda comes out of a codependent bond with her brother because her brother dies. The fact she’s not an emotional wreck and is capable of healthy relationships is amazing. Given a lot of factors… look the relationship - whatever it may be - between Wanda and Vision needs work, but all relationships do. And both of them clearly put a lot of thought into their discussions, with Vision’s awkward hamfisted attempts to make Wanda feel better, and Wanda’s willingness to talk openly to Vision in turn. It’s clearly a relationship based on communication and intellectual exercise, which I think is a decently solid basis? But then again, I’m ace, and of the few relationships I’ve had, one of them involved a hugely manipulative dickhead, so what do I know.

Honestly the squickiness is the one reason I can really see and get behind [3] even though it doesn’t squick me out personally. Vision is literally a year old by the time of CACW. That’s not hyperbole, you can check the MCU timelines on the wikia. He’s very young, he’s still very naive, he still lacks a solid understanding of human nature because he’s very logical and so emotion and ulterior motives sometimes - heck, often - pass him by. He’s seriously lacking in life experience and that makes forming relationships with him of any kind to be very weird.

The way that I find it easier to handle is… well, look at Ultron. Emotionally immature, yes, but intellectually he had a great understanding of things, even if he was an omnicidal maniac. Then, look at JARVIS. We don’t know when JARVIS was made, but he’s existed in MCU canon as a whole and intact thing for years, he’s had plenty of time to mature as a half AI half natural language UI, and then being merged with what there is of the part-sceptre brain of Ultron…. physically he’s a year old, but he’s got more going on in his skull than just that. He may lack a lot of experience and understanding - of course he does, part of him comes from an omnicidal maniac, the other part is a bodyless AI that acted as Tony Stark’s nanny, minder, adviser, best friend and general helping hand. His understanding of a lot of things is very off.

But he isn’t just a year old. He’s also got a lot of other stuff going on.

Honestly, if you don’t like ScarletVision, that’s fine. Its your business, it’s your preference. I don’t get ClintCoulson or Stony or… hell a lot of slash ships these days, if I’m honest, partially due to how they dismiss female characters even when written by female fans, but I’m not going to shit on them. If ScarletVision is your NOTP just block it. There’s no need to go shitting all over it, or trying to justify your hatred, distaste or squicked-out-ness by it. Just say “I don’t like this,” or “It makes me uncomfortable” and leave it at that. You don’t have to justify your personal feelings to other people. You’re allowed to dislike things just because you dislike things. You’re allowed to like things that are ProblematicTM [7] just because they scratch your id.

But yeah. People have their own reasons for not liking ScarletVision and that’s justified. Seeing it pushed in their faces, I can see why someone who doesn’t care for it would come to hate it - I didn’t care about Tony Stark but his stans have made me detest him on principle. But, you don’t need to spew hate everywhere about it, and that isn’t necessarily a personal issue.

That’s a fandom issue, largely due to the purity police, problematic TM thing, the callout brigade and people trying to prove that they are ideologically pure to try to prevent such callouts happening to them. The solution? For people to stop calling out other people or to stop giving a shit if they get called out. For people to stop overusing or misusing callouts to get back at people they don’t like. For people to stop lying with callouts. For people to stop uncritically reblogging callout posts without checking facts for themselves.

This probably isn’t going to happen, not for a while at least. Not before fandom has almost entirely burned itself out, burned itself to the ground and had to rebuild itself from the ground up.

But hey. I guess chewing up and spitting out your friends and companions only to team up again for the sequel is in right now - it’s what’s going in in the MCU.

[1] And hey, if it was nods for BuckyNat you know people would be practically cheering, so I find it kind of weird that this specifically is an issue while people are almost panting for a reference to BuckyNat, just as I find it annoying that people spent ages begging JKR for more information only to turn around and go “why won’t she stop!?” Answer: Because y’all spent years begging her for more. Don’t be bitter because your wish got answered.

[2] Yes there are issues with House of M, yes I know you may dislike it, no, I don’t care right now. Like what you like, dislike what you like, whether house of M was good is not the question, the question is if it was significant and it was. 

 [3] Being sick of Marvel pushing something via nods to the comics sure, that can be irritating, but there’s a bit of a double standard there because no one minds it for other characters and, indeed, they seem to be begging for it for BuckyNat. They ignore the nod to Ultimates that Clint’s family is [4] just to spit on it because it’s not Clintasha like they wanted or ClintCoulson (how did that ship start, honestly? IT MAKES ZERO SENSE), they hate on the nod to comics for WandaVision, but they seem to keep their eyes peeled for every other Easter egg opportunity, draw wildly out of proportion parallels between comics and MCU [5] and practically beg for BuckyNat [6].

[4] As is like… Clint’s character in this, he’s much more brutal than 616 Clint. MCU Clint is more disaster to humans than human disaster, and that is very Ultimates.

[5] People saying how much of a slap in the face the Raft is in MCU are WRONG because the Raft is new in MCU and has never been used to imprison anyone, let alone villains or heroes, so the slap to the face that it is in comics does not apply here.

[6] I get it, BuckyNat is really interesting and features two people dealing with their differing yet similar traumas from the same source. I’m a sucker for that kind of thing, I get it. But guys, it’s not what’s happening.

[7] Kylux feat. blood and force choking for example. Look I have issues with the shipping of Kylo and Hux but those fics are AMAZING and HORRIBLE and I LOVE THEM, for the simple reason that they are very id-scratchy. Sometimes I like to read about deeply unhealthy bloody relationships or just like. Straight up healthy BDSM. We all have likes and dislikes, but those don’t have to be due to an ideological basis. All things are flawed, some things more than others, but just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean that everyone should dislike the thing [8].

[8] There are, of course, exceptions to this. Nazis and Neo-Nazis, for example, should be universally hated and vilified because they wish to commit fucking genocide. White nationalists should be universally hated and vilified because they want to destroy anyone they don’t see as white, when race is a completely arbitrary construct entirely designed to create social divisions in the first place.  But, some things can be problematic without being The Worst And Most Awful Thing Ever and that’s what this post is about.

#wanda maximoff defense squad #wanda maximoff #wanda x vision #scarletvision #mcu meta #ask #anonymous