#MOTHER PLEASE BELIEVE ME THIS ONCE 🙏🏾

[hiya-itsamber]

being a woman who likes formula 1 is being asked what u want for your birthday, saying you would like a ferrari jacket, then your mum saying "oh are you trying to impress a boy?"

#spent the last twenty minutes tryna make her believe i LITERSLLY just like fast cars 😭😭😭😭 #MOTHER PLEASE BELIEVE ME THIS ONCE 🙏🏾 #she was fully like “i came from your age” okay AND. #“youve only got into it after uni” OKAY SO? #amber shut up #like be so ffr i have a lil more self respect than that.

[alegacyofmonsters]

the Josie is problematic list please please PLEASE I'm begging🙏🏾

Here you go!

Read before you read the list:

1. Nothing said here has anything to do with ships. Don’t bring it up. 

2. I will be very clear when something is opinion. Unless clearly stated otherwise, these are facts from canon. 

3. It’s hard to say how much is “bad writing” and how much is the character, so I will be holding Josie exactly as she is written.

4. Other TVDU characters’ bad actions don’t excuse Josie’s. Don’t bring it up to justify her actions.

5. Josie doing some good things doesn’t make all the bad things she does okay.

6. You can still like Josie as a character. All I’m saying is that she’s not a good person right now and these are the reasons why people don’t like her. 

It’s also worth pointing out that, yes, Josie is capable of doing nice or selfless things when she wants to. But it’s also very important to pay attention to the people she’s most nice to (Penelope, Landon, Finch … see a pattern?) and the people she’s most often not to (Lizzie, Hope, Alaric). Acting nicely towards people she’s romantically interested in or wants something from neither negates the problem with her nor makes her a nice person. It only proves she can be kind when she needs to be or when it benefits her. 

Also, disclaimer: This is only updated through 3x15. I’ll probably get around to updating it midway through S4 or when something really big happens. Same thing with Hope and Lizzie’s lists; they’re not up to date.

1x01

“Cleanup on Aisle L”

There’s no reason for Josie to be making jokes about her sister’s episodes when she knows how much Lizzie struggles with them.

Lighting Penelope on fire

Exes or not, making out with MG or not, lighting your drunk ex on fire isn’t cool.

1x02

Josie bystanding Dana’s (and everyone else’s as a common theme) comments about Lizzie

I understand Josie not saying anything to Dana’s face, but even just a little, “Hey, your meds don’t make it okay to bully you,” would’ve comforted Lizzie or Josie not acting like it was Lizzie’s fault would’ve been better.

“You really want Dad to stop loving us? Keep it up.”

Textbook manipulation. Josie takes one of Lizzie’s biggest fears (perpetuated by Josie in the first place, but that comes later) and uses it to convince Lizzie to do what Josie wants above what everyone else wanted.

1x03

Poking at Hope about her and Lizzie

Yelling at her dad for saving Hope

At first glance, it’s a harmless scene but after we find out that Josie manufactured the entire rivalry between Hope and Lizzie it becomes much more malicious.

"MG has the impulse control of a preschooler."

More making fun of/blaming people for their mental illness.

I understand Josie being upset about her dad almost dying, but saying it in front of Hope, who has already struggled with suicidal tendencies, that she’d rather have her die than be saved was a low move.

1x05

Gets upset that Lizzie isn’t a mind reader

Josie never once indicated that she was remotely interested in the position - in fact, she went out of her way to make it seem like she didn’t, and then she holds it above Lizzie’s head to make her sister seem selfish.

1x06

“You’re the reason I got buried alive.”

When Lizzie wasn’t on hand to blame, Josie tried to guilt-trip Penelope for her getting buried alive when Josie was the one who broke the rules to let her mother out in the first place.

1x10

(Yes, this was an AU episode, but honestly nothing Josie does here is any different than what she does in the real world.)

“Try to keep it together today.”

Just blatant ableism - it’s not like Lizzie chooses to be mentally ill or have bad days.

“Someone’s clearly having an off day.”

More ableist jokes.

Laughing at Dana’s meds joke

Again, blatant ableism.

“Every time things are going well for me, you have an episode and ruin everything just to steal the spotlight.”

Did someone order more ableism? I didn’t.

“Honestly, Lizzie, if I believed every paranoid delusion that came out of your mouth, I’d be just as crazy as you.”

Ableism with a side of gaslighting this time.

“I have spent my entire life trying to make you feel better about yourself.”

I know this is an AU and we don’t have the history, but Josie carries the same sentiment in the universe we do know while we clearly see that’s not the case, so it’s very likely the same thing applies here.

“Watched Dad try to kill himself doing it too. Why do you think he drinks all the time?” 

I shouldn’t have to say this, but blaming a parent’s addiction on the child (an addiction that started some good twenty years before said child was even conceived) is straight up abusive.

“I am done making excuses for you. I am done worrying about when you are going to snap. And I am done letting you control my happiness.”

1. Same as two points ago. 2. Again with the ableism as if Lizzie can control when she has manic or depressive episodes. 3. Nobody controls Josie’s happiness except Josie, in the real world and the AU world. It’s not fair to say it’s Lizzie’s responsibility to make Josie happy.

1x11

People’s efforts never being enough for Josie

Josie hints at what she wants, the entire witch faction bends over backwards to make it happen, and Josie (spoiler alert) miraculously still ends up as the victim at the end of the episode.

“You’re a terrible sister.”

Lizzie is no more terrible than Josie is, and to have Josie say this after Lizzie spent the entire episode going out of her way to get Josie what she wanted is honestly awful.

1x12

“I didn’t just lie. I started the fire.”

Josie not only told the entire school about her sister’s first episode, then she blamed Hope with the sole intent of driving Lizzie and Hope apart. She arguably ruined Lizzie’s school/social life and then shifted the blame to someone else. Then Josie proceeds to pretend like Hope and Lizzie are the problem the entire episode until she’s forced to confess where she neither apologizes for lying, for spreading the rumors, nor for starting the fire. 

1x14

Josie is jealous that Lizzie chose Hope

Josie really had the audacity to be upset that Lizzie chose Hope as her replacement in an attempt to turn over a new leaf after Josie’s manipulation came to light.

Ignoring Penelope and then playing victim to Lizzie

All episode, Penelope told Josie she should try to win and offered to help. Josie said on four or five separate occasions that she didn’t want to win and refused Penelope’s help over and over. She even said falling down was her idea to try and win back Lizzie after she hurt her. Yet somehow, miraculously, came out as the victim in the end.

Blames Lizzie for letting Hope wear the dress

I don’t know how Lizzie was supposed to know Klaus gave Caroline the dress or why - if it was really such a big deal to Josie - she didn’t say anything sooner and instead waiting until she wanted to wear the dress and Hope could hear.

Is upset at Lizzie for Penelope leaving

Penelope tried for four episodes to get Josie to listen, and Josie refused to hear her. Then, Josie blames both Lizzie and Penelope for not telling her sooner despite her actively ignoring it.

1x15

“This isn’t about needing space. This is about every waking moment of my life being suffocated by you.”

Other than Lizzie’s obvious need for a little extra help from their parents, when has Lizzie suffocated her life? An episode ago, Lizzie wasn’t there enough. Which is it?

“Then you should stay away.”

You know what’s suffocating? The ableism coming from this girl. Why does she think mentally ill people don’t deserve a support system or help when they’re struggling? If Lizzie really is as suicidal and struggling with self harm as Josie says, why would she want her sister to crash alone and potentially hurt herself or worse?

“She did this to herself.”

Oh, that’s right. Because she thinks mental illness is a choice. Do I even need to say “ableism” again?

“She can choose to take her medication. She hasn’t taken it since we went to go see our mom because she doesn’t like the way that it makes her feel.”

I have a hard time believing that Josie Saltzman, who grew up with a sister who took a variety of different meds and supposedly spends every waking moment of her life with her, could “accidentally” be so tone deaf. There is a long list of completely valid reasons why someone would want to stop taking the meds, and the meds making someone worse is one of them (think about how many more violent episodes Lizzie was having from 1x01-1x10 that stopped when she stopped taking the meds). So why does Josie think Lizzie has to suffer bad meds in order to be more convenient for her?

“Letting her crash is the only way anything will ever change.”

Considering that Josie knows well enough to blab about the fact that Lizzie self harms and thinks she is a danger to herself and others when she’s crashing, this is very obviously not true. In fact, what it is - you guessed it - is ableist. 

“All I’ve ever done is worry about you.”

That’s a weird way to pronounce “complain.”

“I’ll come back for the part where you beg me to forgive you.”

Why does she have to forgive Lizzie for saying that codependency takes two people?

1x16

“Like clockwork - victim.”

The hypocrisy is so strong in this one I don’t even think I have to point it out.

“You are unbelievably selfish.”

Lizzie wanting to die with a reason isn’t all that selfish, especially when she’s already been known to be suicidal and someone has been bullying her over the same mental illness for the last week.

2x01

“My sister is the queen of self-harm.”

Lizzie’s self-harm is both not a joke nor Josie’s information to be giving out to anyone. It’s definitely not a brag. 

“I gave up my summer with Mom to make sure you wouldn’t be alone.”

Everybody in the Saltzman family was asking Josie to go to Europe. She refused every time, and then blames someone else for her own decision. 

2x02

Josie making Flirty Witch’s nose bleed for doodling Landon

Josie and Landon weren’t a thing and hadn’t even gone on a first date yet, and Josie is using magic to harm a teenage girl for having a crush.

“I’m always the caretaker.”

Nope. Just nope on this one. Gaslighting is a no.

2x03

The way she treated Hope at the beginning of the match

Josie didn’t even know her, and even if she suspected Landon of cheating on her with Hope, why would she be upset with Hope and not with Landon?

“You bury little Miss Milkshake.”

Her aggression towards Hope is just unjustified and cruel. Again, she suspects Landon of cheating? Why is she only trying to hurt the girl who would have no idea she existed? Why is she encouraging violence anyway?

“You have a problem hitting her or something?”

Maybe some people care about other human beings, Josie.

“Why are you taking her side?”

Read above.

Breaking Ethan’s arm

Joise knew the spell would do something bad. She’s well-versed enough in magic to know, and plenty intelligent enough not to use a spell she doesn’t know. Even after she snaps his arm, she makes no attempts to right what she’s done.

“I hurt someone. I wanted to.”

I think this one speaks for itself. 

2x04

“That’s Japenese for ‘What the hell is she doing here?’”

Again with the bullying of someone who’s not the person who supposedly did her wrong?

In fact, the entire way Josie treated Hope this episode. I’m not going to list them all. My fingers would fall off.

“Guess she’s not the only one who gets to save your life today. So you’re welcome.”

Why does Josie demand thanks when she gives none when she’s saved? 

“You gave me that black magic spell and because of it, I broke that kid’s arm.”

Yeah and if I hand someone a bullet on the street and they load their gun and shoot someone, I’m not the only one at fault here. Take some accountability. 

2x05

Using Lizzie’s reputation (that Josie manufactured) as a threat, even light-heartedly

Josie uses Lizzie’s name when Josie’s the one who wants things done perfectly, hiding behind her sister again to be liked

Josie skipped plans with her father

Not a crime on its own obviously, but when she later blames him for not making time for her, it becomes hypocritical

Josie is forced to confess that she voted out her father

Same as above. Perfectly fine on its own. Horrible when she demands sympathy for it later.

2x06

Josie spying on Lizzie with Penelope’s journal

I’ll let Freya take this one: “Magic and privacy don’t mix well.”

Knocked Freya out when she called Josie out for not wanting to use the spell

I think this one’s easy but attacking people is not nice.

“I needed a push to do the right thing.”

Josie was going to let the people closest to her actively suffer for her own convenience. And when she finally did, all she was worried about was how it would affect her and her relationship.

“At least this one’s got a hot guy guest star.”

More poking fun at Lizzie’s mental illness and struggles. 

2x07

“He’s not the only friend keeping secrets.”

How is Josie both going to not bring back the memories of Hope and be mad that Hope didn’t make her remember?

Ignores Lizzie when she asks her again not to do back magic

Again, not entirely awful by itself (although a little because Josie knows it also affects Lizzie physically) but when she later tells Lizzie she’s selfish for not noticing she was using black magic, it becomes hypocritical

“Cut to the chase. Who are you gonna choose?”

Josie didn’t even go to the actual Landon to talk to him. She tried to go around him and use magic to get answers he didn’t have.

“So SimuLandon is running around telling everyone he loves Hope. I guess I’m just second-rate.”

Josie’s the one who made him and wanted answers out of him, but now she’s jealous that he - not even the real Landon - has no filter? 

In general, the whole way Josie was so unreceptive to Hope’s reconciliation

For someone who supposedly was friends with Hope and remembered everything before Malivore, Josie treated her pretty awfully when Hope was scared to come back to school

2x09

“I thought they were okay, but it’s just bad again.”

Josie treated Hope awfully when she decided to come back and for no reason other than Landon got his memories back. She dragged Hope around emotionally and lied to her instead of just saying how she felt to start with. 

Josie stealing from her father

Once again, not bad on its own. Just when she later tries to guilt him for not noticing how bad she was doing when she was purposely sneaking behind his back for the exact reason that he wouldn’t know.

“Getting rid of magical evidence before my dad overreacts.”

See above. And why does Josie think she knows better than every adult around her?

“I don’t want to be powerful.”

I mean … that’s just a straight up lie at this point. She’s shown over and over again that powerful and strong is all she wants to be no matter who she hurts, but as soon as it has consequences, she throws her hands up and pretends like it wasn’t what she was after in the first place.

“I get upset more easily. I’m on edge. Jealous.” “It’s not all the magic.”

Not so much a problem point, just pointing out that Josie’s issues can’t be pinned on black magic.

2x10

“Maybe I deserve the magic to just boomerang back to me.”

Once again, as soon as Josie faces consequences, she throws her hands up and demands sympathy for her own actions even when everyone else is already trying to help her.

“Distract you from what?”

This is one of those not-a-problem-on-its-own ones again. Josie is just as, if not more, clueless about Lizzie’s suffering than she is of hers, yet Josie always says she’s the one taking care of Lizzie and that Lizzie never pays attention to her. At least Lizzie is vocal about her struggles.

2x12

(Now this is when Dark!Josie comes in, so I’ll start by clarifying that 1. Dark!Josie is Josie. She’s not being possessed by a separate entity or being controlled by someone else. All the characters have said she's doing the things Josie has always wanted to do and the actors, writers, and producers have all said Dark!Josie and Josie are the same person and 2. I personally don’t hold Josie as accountable for Dark!Josie things as I do for her previous horribleness, but that doesn’t mean other people can’t since, again, they are the same person.)

Ties up her father in the prison world where five people want to kill him

Do I really need to give an explanation for that one? I just … that was low. Even for Josie.

2x13

Josie shows no concern for her dying twin.

Yeah, yeah, “Dark!Josie” but dark magic doesn’t make you emotionless. It’s not a humanity switch. Look at literally any other witch who used black magic (and to much larger proportions than Josie’s two spells too)

“I’m back.”

Are you telling me that Lizzie was supposed to sense the dark magic in Josie when Josie couldn’t even sense it in herself? Or was it just a flatout lie?

2x14

Josie in the simulation box

I shouldn’t have to tell you by now that torturing and murdering people is wrong. Yes, it was a simulation. Yes, she had dark magic. No, I will not list everything she did in the box.

“You’re full of black magic. I was too selfish to see it before.”

Josie has Lizzie so convinced that not being a mind reader and that having her own life (that Josie demanded) makes her a bad person. And again, Josie couldn’t even feel the black magic? How could Lizzie?

2x15

Tries to kill MG

Murder bad.

Kills Alyssa.

Murder bad.

Tries to kill Hope.

Murder still bad.

Kills Lizzie.

Murder still bad.

“One less mouth to feed.”

Joking about murder bad. 

2x16

Josie’s sexist and rude comments towards Hope.

I will not list them all. Sure, she “didn’t want Hope to know it was her.” So speak in a British accent or something? Why is sexism your go-to disguise? For that matter, why is ableism your go-to insults in the real world?

Doesn’t tell anyone she turned Hope to stone in her mind

Sure, nothing came out of it. But when Hope was unconscious and not waking up, Josie didn’t think to mention what she had done? She just put her magic away and pretended like it didn’t involve her?

3x01

Plays the victim card when Alyssa (rightfully!) calls her out for murdering her.

I think we can all agree that Alyssa had a very good point here.

Doesn’t tell Lizzie she put her magic away until she can use it to manipulate

Josie had plenty of opportunities to tell Lizzie (before or during field day) that she didn’t have her magic. Instead, she waited until she could throw it back in Lizzie’s face publicly, place the victim, and guilt her sister again. It’s becoming a pattern.

“All your trying, it doesn’t change anything. You’re making everything worse like you used to.”

The entire fandom cringed during that line. Every last one. She just waved her hypocrisy and narcissism like a giant flag. I don’t know why I thought Season 3 Josie would magically treat Lizzie like a human being, but consider me disappointed. 

“This is exactly what you wanted. It’s what you’ve been trying to make me do all day.”

Josie really just gave up on subtle hypocrisy this episode huh. Really just wants to blame Lizzie for everything again huh.

“She thinks that I should be the focus for a change.”

Is it possible to literally explode from too much hypocrisy? Because that what it felt like every time Josie opened her mouth this episode. It physically hurt.

“I know that all you’ve been trying to do lately is help me.”

So … she does know? Because a literal episode ago, she was saying nobody tries to help her. 

3x03

“She can’t decide what she wants, and when she finally does decide, she makes a super selfish choice.

We all heard how disgusted Josie was when a mirror was held to her face. The hypocrisy is literally killing me slowly.

“You gave up on Hope, like, twice.”

Didn’t you want her to die, like, twice and didn’t want to bring back memories of her in Season 2? Starts with “H” and ends with “Y”.

“At first I thought she was selfish, but she was just being honest about how she’s changed.”

Glad Elena changed. You still didn’t. Josie literally went through all of Season 2’s mess and came out the same person she was at the beginning of Season 1. No growth, no improvement, nothing. Just a bigger ego.

3x04

“If you can forgive me for that one time I killed you?”

How hard would it have been to actually say the words “I’m sorry” to the girl who murdered instead of skirting around the apology and immediately demanding forgiveness.

3x05

“You’re in a good mood. What’s wrong?”

Even if it were light-hearted, saying something like this to someone who literally struggles with manic and depressive states out of their control is beyond shitty.

“My sister took the news about me wanting to transfer about as well as you did Maya leaving.”

I don’t have to say it, but I will. Not nice to lie about your siblings, especially when Finch’s (unexplained) reaction resulted in suspension and Lizzie just didn’t give her full support.

3x09

“Please. The LARPers and comic book geeks sit over there. It’s probably more your speed.”

Telling people who they can and can’t be friends with is very school bully-ish.

“Knock it off. No vamp powers.” / “We need to keep it that way or my dad is going to yank us out of this school.”

Expecting MG to be able to just turn his hearing off and then threatening him with a consequence Josie knows isn’t real is a no. A hard no.

Josie wanting Ethan compelled for her own convenience

MG says it best: “No offense, Jo, but what are you really worried about risking?”

“I do know that, Dad.”

Another not-a-point, just important to note for when she uses Alaric “not loving” her or Lizzie for sympathy and manipulation

Josie asking Lizzie to spy on Finch with magic

I’ll use Freya’s words again here: “Magic and privacy don’t mix.” 

3x11

Having to fight with herself to care enough to save someone’s life

Because that’s what the whole Dark!Josie/Josie scene was. It wasn’t some separate entity sitting there. It wasn’t another person. It was Josie’s subconscious projected into a hologram. That was Josie’s internal monologue brought to the screen, no magic involved, having to try that hard to convince herself to help save Hope’s life. 

3x12

“Bringing the Necromancer to the surface sounds like something we’d live to regret.” / “Why are you making me do this?” “Short answer? We used to be black magic frenemies.”

Telling her father he shouldn’t try to bring back the Necromancer only to try to do it herself the second he walked out the door was suspicious at best, not to mention hypocritical. How many people died last time?

3x13

Ignoring Finch’s reluctance to come to SBS and not listening when Finch told her why their situations weren’t the same

She did come around by the end of the episode beautifully and realized what Finch was saying, but it still happened and it still shows her trying to control the people around her.

3x14

“Lizzie went on this witch-y wellness retreat, but I haven’t heard from her in over a week. I think that she might be in trouble.”

Blatant manipulation. Not a new thing, but at least this time might’ve been with good intentions.

Not noticing anything was wrong with Lizzie despite being in contact with her

I wouldn’t normally make this a point, but since Josie complains that Lizzie and Alaric didn’t notice anything wrong with her under black magic, it makes her hypocritical to see nothing wrong when she does it to someone else.

“You’re the one that indoctrinated us into a freaking cult.”

It was Josie’s idea to visit, Josie was the reason Lizzie was there in the first place, she lied to get Hope there, didn’t want to leave when Hope did, didn’t want to leave when Lizzie did, but somehow it’s all Lizzie’s fault that they were in this mess? I think not. And of course, no apology, but on the bright side, some awareness that this is her “normal.”

“All I’ve ever wanted for you is happiness.”

A bold-faced lie edging into gaslighting at this point. Somehow the last decade of how she treated Hope didn’t happen for her.

3x15

“You’re a princess.” / “Why am I not a princess?!” / “You get to be the princess.”

The one time Josie wasn’t the princess (in someone else’s fanfic, mind you), it’s endless complaining and guilting. 

Reading Lizzie’s diary and then blaming it on Lizzie’s MI

Yes, Josie was eleven when she read the diary. She was seventeen when she decided to blame Lizzie’s MI, not apologize for it, and then play victim in all of it. Ableism bad. Lying bad. Manipulating bad. 

Josie reading Lizzie’s diary to the other witches and laughing about it

Even at eleven years old, you know not to bully people about their MI’s. 

#legacies #legacies cw #josie saltzman #lizzie saltzman #hope mikaelson #penelope park #alaric saltzman #milton greasley #landon kirby #requests