Hosea and Dutch did good by saving John and Arthur, but that doesn't automatically make them faultless parents.
They molded Arthur and John into ideal outlaws who obeyed them (intentional or not). So much so that BOTH Arthur and John ended up prioritizing the gang over their literal children + the mothers of their children.
Arthur never actually made it out of the outlaw life. John struggled for 8 years trying to leave behind old habits. You cannot tell me that wasn't a direct product of Dutch and Hosea raising them.
I doubt they had any malicious intent, but that doesn't absolve them of everything. I think a big thing rdr fans tend to do is favor intent over the actual results of a character's actions.
It's explicitly clear that the cycle of violence didn't begin with John and proceed with Jack, it began with Hosea and Dutch.
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Outlaws = bad guys? No, the only problem is that their time has passed
Something I think rdr fandom has overlooked is that - Arthur’s line ‘the whole world has changed. They don’t want folks like us no more.’ It implies that in the past, the society wanted ppl like them. I think ‘wanted’ here doesn’t mean ‘legal’, but they’re needed by the society or, as an organic part of the temporary lawless land of the west. Being an outlaw is not as notorious and evil as it might seem in 1899. I think this explains why it’s so easy for almost everyone in gang fell into the outlaw lifestyle. Especially gangs like VDL gang in its original robinhood form, they can even be seen partially as the ‘vigilantes’ in modern day language. There are two lines I can use to support my point. Local marshal (people) prefers bandits to the ‘federal law’, and John defends his past:
1. In the mission in rdr1 in which John met the Armadillo Marshal for the first time, the Marshal said something like ‘Bandits like Bill Williamson’s gang are trouble, but they’re trouble we can handle. What annoys me more are the federal agents. Why should a bunch of college students in the east coast decide ppl in New Austin how to live?’
2. In the ‘And the Truth will Set You Free’ mission in rdr1 in which John rode with Agent Ross to get to Dutch, Agent Ross laughed at John’s past saying I wonder how much money you’ve taken from the ppl. To this John replied, ‘we did more for the people with the money we took than your damn government ever did!’
In short, being an outlaw back then was an easy choice to make, and didn’t always entail doing bad things, just following different standards of justice, even if ppl may see things differently later after the law/the world has changed. Yes I’m defending John, Arthur, Hosea and Dutch and many other vdl gang members’ choice to be an outlaw in the very first place. It was more about the society and their identities as minorities or ostracized ppl than ‘oh Dutch’s famous charisma and his silver tongue’!
The gang life in chapter 1-4 was deliberately portrayed as something good, harmonious, rememberable, a stark contrast with the brutal outside world, the last vestiges of the lost Wild West. Despite its imperfection, the game mourned the loss of this kind of lifestyle to GTA-ish modernity, and did not judge ppl for being an outlaw in the first place. We can easily name tons of good ppl in vdl gang, but none of the lawman in both games are good people (Milton, Ross, etc) .
If anything’s more telling, the marketing slogan of rdr2 is ‘Outlaws for life’, and not ‘let’s be a law abiding citizen or you’re dead’.
Ps. The official description of vdl gang by rockstar:
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I've got a plan, John. This is a budget one.
Waiting for the rest of the stuff I need for the cosplay to come 👀 I need to adjust this shirt and I do have a plan for the necklace to make it look more accurate but so far holy fuck I did not thought I could pull of RD1 Dutch cosplay on a budget 😭 definitely gonna make the whole thing more accurate considering I hit plan-deprived with this one especially on the shoes 😩
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Okay but imagine if Eliza and Isaac joined the gang and Dutch never went crazy. Jack and Isaac would have grown up together, fooling around, playing and learning together. Isaac would be just a few years older than Jack and would learn everything before Jack and Jack would be SO jealous so in secret Isaac taught him, they both thought now Jack could impress John when John started teaching Jack, but both John and Arthur knew about these "secret" lessons and thought it was cute so they allowed it with Eliza and Abigail holding a close eye on them.
I know that those would have grown up to become the new John and Arthur, brothers not in blood but in every other sense, fearless, careless, young and stupid but hard working, fierce and always had each others back.
They would start with small robberies in "secret" and then work their way up to their fathers levels, taking over when they got too old.
Imagine those two idiots about mid/early twenties going into a bar, getting drunk and getting in a bar fight that ends up with them having to run off with their horses but they are both laughing and enjoying themselves. They end up in some abandoned shed because they know better than to go directly to camp and they sleep until noon the next day only to realise they are utterly lost so Isaac brings out his "master tracker" skills he got from the few more years he had watched Charles. Either way he ends up leading them over to a bear, they survive but are a little bruised and a stranger brings them back into town to a doctor where the sheriff sees them and brings them in.
Arthur and John has to go pick them up because they know that if it was Abigail and Eliza they would have wished the bear finished them. The two are lowkey proud of their boys because they are having fun, but they do warn them about their mothers.
Isaac and Jack best friends and idiots in the gang, I love them.
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